Why do bites have to be free?

AhPook_Is_Here

10k seems kinda steep but market making is market making. If nobody does it the only market left is the crown store or the right night in the right place.

Skoomah

I charge 100,000 gold per bite.

Aisle9

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Two reasons.

1. It's considered essentially a community resource because there are so many werewolves and vampires, which is a point of pride for them, that when someone holds it behind a monitary wall, people call them what they are. Exploitative. It's a commodity that is in demand but has no supply limit, people who want you to pay for it are idiotic, especially because people from guilds are more than happy to oblige.

You can only give 1 bite per week, per vampire character, therefore the supply has a limit: 1 per week per character.
Also, as previously stated, you have the choice to refuse the transaction.
Also, since my guild members have priority, you have another limit there.

To give you an example, I don't bite anyone who's not in one of the guilds I'm in, regardless of how much they are willing to pay, because I offer it for free to guild members. If I give it to a stranger I might not have it for a guildie.

As usual, your premise is flawed.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

2. Because of what happened at release. Back in the day, it was pricegouged, people going out of their way to enforce the scarcity. People used to kill the mobs needed to contract either disease so others couldn't get it, and thus they had to pay.

Back in the day, not anymore. I got infected twice by accident, without even looking for it, so I have reason to believe is not happening anymore.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The practice has been demonized because the people who do it are usually ***. S'not entitlement to frown upon someone pricegouging something that's readily available. If I set up a hot-dog stand next to a hotdog stand selling hotdogs for 10 bucks, and demanded 100 bucks per hotdog, with no actual improvement on the product, people will call me an idiot and go to the other stand. That's what this is.

As stated, it's not readily available.
If you set a hotdog stand next to another selling them for 1/10th of what you ask, the free market takes care of you. People will refuse the transaction.

On the other hand, if the other stand selling hotdogs for 1/10th of the price happened to run out of hotdogs, and the demand for hotdogs is high enough, you may end up selling a couple of your incredibly high priced hotdogs in the end.

You may think it's morally reprehensible, but so is throwing stones at you and demanding you sell them hotdogs for 1/10th of the price you're asking.

People are not forced to accept the transaction, but if they feel they are, it means the goods of services are not readily available.

If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because only trolls would ask for compensation, and nobody would take them seriously, which is not the case.

Lord_Eomer

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious about the logic involved in this. I saw someone in zone chat ask for a bite, and the only person available to do it was busy but said they'd do it but since it was interrupting them and out of their way they were asking 10k, to which the asker agreed. Immediately, first one and then a bunch of people jumped on the would-be biter, calling them all sorts of names and being generally hostile and angry that they would dare charge for a bite and insisting that bites should always be free. I've seen this sort of conversation many times over the past year, and no one ever answers me when I ask in zone chat: Why is it different to ask for gold for a bite than it is to ask for gold for Skyreach runs, or mats, or something that you stumbled over in a treasure chest?

I know people who bought the bite in the crown store, way back. I also know people who farmed *hard* for the special spawns to earn their bite the hard way out in the wild and are very proud of that accomplishment. So why is this worthless compared to an accidental find, or some time spent picking up a few nodes, or running content with someone to help them earn xp? The bitee is basically asking to have an entire skill line shared with them. Why is this worth less than someone's higher CP level in Skyreach, or someone's luck with a chest?

(Note--within guilds I see a lot of bites given back and forth to guildies, but I also see a lot of items and mats and gold and carries given freely, too, so that's aside from this "random request in zone" thing.)

because Bites sell in Crown Store!

G1Countdown

Bites are a service. And, when you partake of a service it is not unreasonable to pay for said service. There is nothing wrong with that.

There is also nothing wrong with giving your bite for free. Just like there is nothing wrong with tipping for a bite.

Sometimes people see injustice where they want to see it.

Cruxanero

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people paying for the convenience of getting a fast bite and not have to wait a bit longer and get it for free.

However these may not be the majority of people that pay for a bite, but new players who don't know better.

A couple weeks ago there was someone in Stonefalls zone chat asking how much a bite costs, and a person replied that they are usually about 10k, but he himself had found someone willing to do it for 5k and wished the person luck to also find a generous offer. He was pretty upset when zone chat told him that there are many people giving bites for free and felt cheated and ripped off.
It's not a very good first impression for the community if new players later on inevitable find out that they payed for something that could also have been free, escepially during a phase of the game they need gold for inventory upgrades, horse training etc. and don't know yet how to earn it fast.

So in summary, I'd say it's morally absolutely not wrong to offer something like: "FYI: There are also people giving out free bites, but if you want me to bite you right now that's 5k. Give or take."
It's a different thing though to charge without giving this info, as it could be a new player you're taking advantage of in that moment, and not a veteran making an informed decision that 5k are worth less to him than the time spend for searching for a free bite.

lientier

I actually farmed for my vampirism and my werewolf skill line. BUT I always give it for free. AND I actually payed once like 3k for it, because I was too lazy to wait for my husband to come online or find someonelse (but then I had lots of gold available). 10k is way to high a price. and I think what bugs me about it, that its lot of the times newby players who dont know the worth yet and think its really cool, so it feels like exploiting them.

Sevn

Having been scammed out of gold when I was more of a noob looking for a bite I certainly look down on anyone charging for bites. It's not like you can get bitten and give gold simultaneously so it's always a risk with a stranger, which is usually the only ones available to bite you.

Aisle9

Sevn wrote: »

Having been scammed out of gold when I was more of a noob looking for a bite I certainly look down on anyone charging for bites. It's not like you can get bitten and give gold simultaneously so it's always a risk with a stranger, which is usually the only ones available to bite you.

Unless you ask in guild chat.

Or friend list.

Or wait for the NPC at the spawn location.

Or buy it in the crown store...

Yeah, other than that, it's your only choice.

DanteYoda

I don't get the mentality of asking for money for everything.. I got a vampire bite this week for free.. I didn't expect to pay for it and currency was not even discussed..

Can't people just be friendly and help each other out?

When i can if anyone asks i'll give bites for free.. just doing my part to help the community.

Sektion67

What's the cooldown, 7 days? Moreover, it does take at least some time and effort to track down blood fiends. So yeah, it shouldn't be free. If you want insta vampire you should have to pay for the convenience. ZOS sells this in the Crown Store for around $15 , but I'm to believe it has no in-game value?

Vampires should be able to overfeed and kill their target if they so choose. You're asking a Vampire to bite you, it should be dangerous and unpredictable. Maybe I'm feeling nice that day, maybe not. Either way, it's an incentive to tip!!

There's too many friendly vamps running around Tamriel, get into character people! Maybe next time you go bite someone at the alter, you can bake them some cookies too.

Glaiceana

I also bite for free because I like to help people who just want to be a werewolf/vampire. Quite often its a lower level player and they either won't have the cash to pay for it, or they run the risk of getting scammed.

I think to understand this properly you have to go back in time. The bites never used to be in the crown store for a start. They were at one point rare. People would spawn camp the wild NPC werewolves in order to sell the bites themselves, or take the bite from the NPC and kill them at the same time so no one else could get it. Often people would offer their bite, the player pays, and then that one runs away with the cash without biting. It's too easy to scam. And the whole "selling" of the bite is the same as everything else in the game, when something is new/rare, its worth a lot to people. So yes very early on people saw an opportunity to make money. You could also argue the 7 day cool down for biting people was another reason to charge for it. Also, the bite used to run out on the bitten player! You had 7 days in order to complete the quest, or you would need to be bitten again.

But fast forward to today, the bite is very easy to come by now. So many give it for free, that sellers are the ones that stand out more than the other way around.

For myself, I remember seeing online the trouble people went through to get a bite without getting scammed, and the prices people had to pay. That knowledge made me WANT to give it for free to help people avoid these problems. That decision happened even before I made an ESO account!
It also later led me to creating my guild, where I brought together other werewolves who thought the bite should be free and wanted to help people get it.

eso_nya

Beggars trying to be choosers i'd say.

I have 7 or 8 werewolfs, but i never answer to ppl asking for bites. Unless they r very good friends. I do have zonechat turned off by default, but i also consider it a waste of my time to bite someone for some pocketchange. Additionally bothering with ftards who demand to be bitten for free and ftards who try to ninja a bite at the shrines... hell no, keep your 10k.

coop500

Sektion67 wrote: »

What's the cooldown, 7 days? Moreover, it does take at least some time and effort to track down blood fiends. So yeah, it shouldn't be free. If you want insta vampire you should have to pay for the convenience. ZOS sells this in the Crown Store for around $15 , but I'm to believe it has no in-game value?

Vampires should be able to overfeed and kill their target if they so choose. You're asking a Vampire to bite you, it should be dangerous and unpredictable. Maybe I'm feeling nice that day, maybe not. Either way, it's an incentive to tip!!

There's too many friendly vamps running around Tamriel, get into character people! Maybe next time you go bite someone at the alter, you can bake them some cookies too.

I have noticed vampire people are more aggressive and rude than werewolf players.... Vampires are also more likely to charge

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

The simple fact that someone says that bites are a service shows you that ZOS totally lost control of WW and Vampires. Well this back in 2014, when people were camping spawn places and charging people 1.5M.

The funny thing is that you can still buy it for 1500 crowns in the store.

starkerealm

Imza wrote: »

I believe that this originates from when it was discovered that you could get bites from NPC's..... specific ppl farmed those NPC's and killed them holding the general public to ransom on bites.... and charging a lot of gold for them...

hence the strong reaction now...

Yeah, that's the crux. Back at launch, bites were much harder to come by (the NPCs only spawned once per week, and in the case of werewolves, because of server resets, were nearly impossible to obtain for a couple weeks.) Combine this with groups who would, deliberately pick off the infection spawns as they came up, and then sell the bites. This is, also, why it's still sometimes considered poor form to announce where you see an infection spawn in zone. Because back then you would get the scalpers rushing in to kill off the infection spawns before players could get infected for free.

It's all ancient history now, but it does inform how the community views selling bites.

Aisle9

DanteYoda wrote: »

I don't get the mentality of asking for money for everything.. I got a vampire bite this week for free.. I didn't expect to pay for it and currency was not even discussed..

Can't people just be friendly and help each other out?

When i can if anyone asks i'll give bites for free.. just doing my part to help the community.

I don't get why people won't give me upgrade materials for free, I have a lot of stuff to upgrade, and people get free materials when they upgrade raw stuff. Can't people just be friendly and help each other out ?

See the problem with that ?

The difference is the perception of value.

We perceive upgrade materials as valuable, and ask for a price. Other people perceive them as valuable and are willing to pay the price we ask.

You don't see a vampire bite as valuable, therefore give it away for free.

Other people perceive it as valuable, therefore are incentivized to get into a transaction for it in exchange for currency.

The point is not whether or not it has value, but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

DanteYoda

Aisle9 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I don't get the mentality of asking for money for everything.. I got a vampire bite this week for free.. I didn't expect to pay for it and currency was not even discussed..

Can't people just be friendly and help each other out?

When i can if anyone asks i'll give bites for free.. just doing my part to help the community.

I don't get why people won't give me upgrade materials for free, I have a lot of stuff to upgrade, and people get free materials when they upgrade raw stuff. Can't people just be friendly and help each other out ?

See the problem with that ?

The difference is the perception of value.

We perceive upgrade materials as valuable, and ask for a price. Other people perceive them as valuable and are willing to pay the price we ask.

You don't see a vampire bite as valuable, therefore give it away for free.

Other people perceive it as valuable, therefore are incentivized to get into a transaction for it in exchange for currency.

The point is not whether or not it has value, but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

I do give upgrade materials for free if i can spare them so no i don't understand.

Aisle9

DanteYoda wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I don't get the mentality of asking for money for everything.. I got a vampire bite this week for free.. I didn't expect to pay for it and currency was not even discussed..

Can't people just be friendly and help each other out?

When i can if anyone asks i'll give bites for free.. just doing my part to help the community.

I don't get why people won't give me upgrade materials for free, I have a lot of stuff to upgrade, and people get free materials when they upgrade raw stuff. Can't people just be friendly and help each other out ?

See the problem with that ?

The difference is the perception of value.

We perceive upgrade materials as valuable, and ask for a price. Other people perceive them as valuable and are willing to pay the price we ask.

You don't see a vampire bite as valuable, therefore give it away for free.

Other people perceive it as valuable, therefore are incentivized to get into a transaction for it in exchange for currency.

The point is not whether or not it has value, but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

I do give upgrade materials for free if i can spare them so no i don't understand.

@Aisle0

Send away, especially tempering alloys, I have a bunch of weapons to upgrade.

Cheers

starkerealm

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

madchuska83

I remember when the game first launched there were Vampire and Werewolf RP guilds who would camp out and kill the mobs that infect you. Always screaming about keeping the bloodlines pure, then you'd see them selling bites for 20k+.

starkerealm

madchuska83 wrote: »

I remember when the game first launched there were Vampire and Werewolf RP guilds who would camp out and kill the mobs that infect you. Always screaming about keeping the bloodlines pure, then you'd see them selling bites for 20k+.

Multiply that by 2 to 5 times. Vampire bites were close to 100k for a little while. Werewolf bites ran around 40-50k originally.

There's a reason paying for bites has the reputation it does. 20k came awhile after launch, and was trending into reasonable at the time, as the market recovered.

Wildberryjack

I always bite free and refuse tips. But, that said there is nothing wrong with charging. It doesn't matter if it doesn't take long to get to a shrine and bite someone, the bottom line is you are taking your time to provide a service to someone else. If you feel you should be compensated for it then you should be. Not everyone has to do everything for free and it isn't anyone else's call to make but the individual providing the service.

Aisle9

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

coop500

Aisle9 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

I have 8 werewolf characters who are almost always are on cooldown due to biting people, 75% of them being randoms.... I never had this problem, seems you're pretty (un)lucky or exaggerating.

Wildberryjack

Aisle9 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

Similar experiences. I was waiting at the WW shrine a few days ago for someone and there were a couple other players there pestering me to bite them. When my friend arrived and I bit them the others got mad and started cussing at me saying they were there first. They felt entitled to the bite because... reasons. Then they wanted to know if I had other WWs and demanded I bring them to bite them. I told them I don't bite people who cuss at me and I left.

Aisle9

coop500 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

I have 8 werewolf characters who are almost always are on cooldown due to biting people, 75% of them being randoms.... I never had this problem, seems you're pretty (un)lucky or exaggerating.

As I said, I only bite guildies, so it doesn't happen as often as you, it seems.

Also, not all my characters are vamp/ww, so I have less than you.

Also, you're already servicing randoms, the chance to get someone at the shrine to ask you for it is lower.

Basically, different population = different sample.

starkerealm

coop500 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

I have 8 werewolf characters who are almost always are on cooldown due to biting people, 75% of them being randoms.... I never had this problem, seems you're pretty (un)lucky or exaggerating.

No, I've seen that. I've also seen a player intentionally trying to dodge between other players hoping to snarf a bite intended for someone else.

Begging for bites does seem to disproportionately affect the vampire community. I want to say it has something to do with vampires being perceived as more desirable for endgame. I mean, we have people who will tell you that you need vampirism for endgame content. So, unsurprisingly, there seem to be more people begging for bat bites in game.

Also, server/platform can be a factor. I can only speak for PCNA. I don't know how the other server communities shake out when it comes to bites.

starkerealm

Aisle9 wrote: »

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Yeah, I'm not. If you're new, my advice is still, "don't buy them," or at least don't burn all your savings chasing a bite. But, if you know what you're doing, and don't want to deal with screwing around, sure, pay for a bite if it means you get gnawed on right now.

coop500

Aisle9 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

...but if it's acceptable to bully people that sell them into giving them for free.

I believe it's not.

It shouldn't be acceptable. But, as I mentioned a minute ago, the bite situation has some history that informs how the community views it.

That said, a lot of people will hear the, "never pay for bites," advice without realizing there's a cooldown on Blood Ritual. I've had to explain to players in zone that it wasn't possible to bite everyone who asked because of the timer. People seem to be more knowledgeable about that now, but if someone thinks that biting really is no-cost to the user, then I could see them arguing for free bites.

And that's fine, but as stated before, it's not the case anymore.

It's an argument based on ignorance, and while I understand you're not necessarily defending it, I don't agree with it.

Also, it's not accurate, because while it's true that some people have that mindset, some other simply emulate them and say "never pay for bites" without even knowing the background of why someone says that.

Some other are just plain entitled. I can tell you I had to ignore people because they kept whispering me "bite me" while I was waiting for a guildie at the shrine.

First one I said "can't sorry", the second "already taken, sorry" the third, forth and fifth I didn't even bother replying.

That happens often when I'm at the shrine.

I have 8 werewolf characters who are almost always are on cooldown due to biting people, 75% of them being randoms.... I never had this problem, seems you're pretty (un)lucky or exaggerating.

As I said, I only bite guildies, so it doesn't happen as often as you, it seems.

Also, not all my characters are vamp/ww, so I have less than you.

Also, you're already servicing randoms, the chance to get someone at the shrine to ask you for it is less.

Basically, different population = different sample.

I bite plenty of guildies too WITH people there already while I wait for the guildie or if the random is coming from another zone that doesn't have a shrine. I might get one whisper asking and I say it's taken, they leave me alone. I then sometimes come back on another WW toon without informing them and bite the random for not spamming/freaking out. But I still never had anybody freak out like you claim.

Do I think all randoms are perfect and would never be pain in the rears and annoying? Not at all, I know people can be jerks and self entitled, what I am doubting is how you seem to be saying this happens more often than not and that just seems unlikely. Not all random people are evil and out to abuse you for their own gain.