Why do bites have to be free?

stewhead2ub17_ESO

IMO this thread has run it's course, with the expected responses given. Let's let it die a natural death.

Merlin13KAGL

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious about the logic involved in this. I saw someone in zone chat ask for a bite, and the only person available to do it was busy but said they'd do it but since it was interrupting them and out of their way they were asking 10k, to which the asker agreed. Immediately, first one and then a bunch of people jumped on the would-be biter, calling them all sorts of names and being generally hostile and angry that they would dare charge for a bite and insisting that bites should always be free. I've seen this sort of conversation many times over the past year, and no one ever answers me when I ask in zone chat: Why is it different to ask for gold for a bite than it is to ask for gold for Skyreach runs, or mats, or something that you stumbled over in a treasure chest?

Rule #1: Odds are better than not that zone chat is going to have higher than average quantity of idiots. This is one of the reasons why the whisper was invented. Whisper the requester, they have the option to agree/disagree.

10k is steep, but again, the 'buyer' has the option to hold out. There are plenty of free bites out there, so it's a tradeoff - a choice. Gold, for time (not having to wait), for gold. The person with the bite also has the option to not offer for sale, so it's on both of them in that regard.

I know people who bought the bite in the crown store, way back. I also know people who farmed *hard* for the special spawns to earn their bite the hard way out in the wild and are very proud of that accomplishment.

If they opted to spend crowns on that, it's on them. Again, their choice to pay for something that had no cost does not suddenly give it (extra) value.

And farming *hard*? You're joking, right?

Here's what the bite farm involves:

1. Look around. Is it darkish outside (in game)? If so, proceed to step 2. If not, repeat step 1.
2. Go to the location where bites happen. Bankorai, Reaper's, etc.
3. Bankorai example: Go just outside the city, up the hill, look for bloodfiends. If they're present within 2-5 minutes, engage in combat. If they're not wait until next valid step 1.
4. Get hit once. Check character buffs at bottom of character sheet.
5. Return to orignal wayshrine, port out, port back in (if necessary). See new questgiver.

It hasn't been hard to farm for it for years, especially since it goes dark every few hours. If the steps above are considered a prideworthy accomplishment, they must feel like they win the lottery every day!

So why is this worthless compared to an accidental find, or some time spent picking up a few nodes, or running content with someone to help them earn xp? The bitee is basically asking to have an entire skill line shared with them. Why is this worth less than someone's higher CP level in Skyreach, or someone's luck with a chest?

(Note--within guilds I see a lot of bites given back and forth to guildies, but I also see a lot of items and mats and gold and carries given freely, too, so that's aside from this "random request in zone" thing.)

The timeframe involved to get a bite from someone is 1-2 minutes, max. People don't clear Skyreach in 2 minutes, in general, and even if they do, they're probably not charging 10k to do so.

Difficulty and commitment comparison:

• One involves DPS and survivability to kill 100(?) adds in an absurdly short amount of time.
• One involves walking to a glorified table and pressing one button.

And they're not sharing a skill line. They're sharing a quest to obtain a skill line. Do you charge 10k when someone asks you to group up and share a daily? Somehow I doubt it.

Regarding everything else: The first person to get the line, didn't have to pay jack. Not gold, not crowns, not anything. It's far from rare, or hard to obtain. If two people come to an agreement, that's fine.

Trying to make it sound like someone is truly granting some massive gift, otherwise unobtainable, is complete ***. If each person literally only got one bite to give away, ever, then that would be something. One a week for an otherwise free thing might be worth 10k to some buyers, but it's hardly justified as truly being valued at 10k.

There's no cost involved for the biter other than a skillpoint and minimum of time (which they always have the option not to invest in either.)

Aisle9 wrote: »

If people don't want to pay for a service, they are free to not accept the transaction and look for someone willing to do it for free, but bullying someone into giving something they think has value for free is exactly that: bullying.

And sorry, but this is complete *** too.

No one with even the slightest bit of spine is being truly pressured into providing something from *** in zone chat.

Doesn't make them any less ***, but it hardly qualifies as bullying.

• /whisper
• /ignore

Two of the strongest skills in the game.

Aisle9

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious about the logic involved in this. I saw someone in zone chat ask for a bite, and the only person available to do it was busy but said they'd do it but since it was interrupting them and out of their way they were asking 10k, to which the asker agreed. Immediately, first one and then a bunch of people jumped on the would-be biter, calling them all sorts of names and being generally hostile and angry that they would dare charge for a bite and insisting that bites should always be free. I've seen this sort of conversation many times over the past year, and no one ever answers me when I ask in zone chat: Why is it different to ask for gold for a bite than it is to ask for gold for Skyreach runs, or mats, or something that you stumbled over in a treasure chest?

Rule #1: Odds are better than not that zone chat is going to have higher than average quantity of idiots. This is one of the reasons why the whisper was invented. Whisper the requester, they have the option to agree/disagree.

10k is steep, but again, the 'buyer' has the option to hold out. There are plenty of free bites out there, so it's a tradeoff - a choice. Gold, for time (not having to wait), for gold. The person with the bite also has the option to not offer for sale, so it's on both of them in that regard.

I know people who bought the bite in the crown store, way back. I also know people who farmed *hard* for the special spawns to earn their bite the hard way out in the wild and are very proud of that accomplishment.

If they opted to spend crowns on that, it's on them. Again, their choice to pay for something that had no cost does not suddenly give it (extra) value.

And farming *hard*? You're joking, right?

Here's what the bite farm involves:

1. Look around. Is it darkish outside (in game)? If so, proceed to step 2. If not, repeat step 1.
2. Go to the location where bites happen. Bankorai, Reaper's, etc.
3. Bankorai example: Go just outside the city, up the hill, look for bloodfiends. If they're present within 2-5 minutes, engage in combat. If they're not wait until next valid step 1.
4. Get hit once. Check character buffs at bottom of character sheet.
5. Return to orignal wayshrine, port out, port back in (if necessary). See new questgiver.

It hasn't been hard to farm for it for years, especially since it goes dark every few hours. If the steps above are considered a prideworthy accomplishment, they must feel like they win the lottery every day!

So why is this worthless compared to an accidental find, or some time spent picking up a few nodes, or running content with someone to help them earn xp? The bitee is basically asking to have an entire skill line shared with them. Why is this worth less than someone's higher CP level in Skyreach, or someone's luck with a chest?

(Note--within guilds I see a lot of bites given back and forth to guildies, but I also see a lot of items and mats and gold and carries given freely, too, so that's aside from this "random request in zone" thing.)

The timeframe involved to get a bite from someone is 1-2 minutes, max. People don't clear Skyreach in 2 minutes, in general, and even if they do, they're probably not charging 10k to do so.

Difficulty and commitment comparison:

• One involves DPS and survivability to kill 100(?) adds in an absurdly short amount of time.
• One involves walking to a glorified table and pressing one button.

And they're not sharing a skill line. They're sharing a quest to obtain a skill line. Do you charge 10k when someone asks you to group up and share a daily? Somehow I doubt it.

Regarding everything else: The first person to get the line, didn't have to pay jack. Not gold, not crowns, not anything. It's far from rare, or hard to obtain. If two people come to an agreement, that's fine.

Trying to make it sound like someone is truly granting some massive gift, otherwise unobtainable, is complete ***. If each person literally only got one bite to give away, ever, then that would be something. One a week for an otherwise free thing might be worth 10k to some buyers, but it's hardly justified as truly being valued at 10k.

There's no cost involved for the biter other than a skillpoint and minimum of time (which they always have the option not to invest in either.)

Aisle9 wrote: »

If people don't want to pay for a service, they are free to not accept the transaction and look for someone willing to do it for free, but bullying someone into giving something they think has value for free is exactly that: bullying.

And sorry, but this is complete *** too.

No one with even the slightest bit of spine is being truly pressured into providing something from *** in zone chat.

Doesn't make them any less ***, but it hardly qualifies as bullying.

• /whisper
• /ignore

Two of the strongest skills in the game.

You made the exact same points I made:

1) People have the capacity to decline the deal
2) It's only worth what value the people involved give to it
3) It's not as hard as it was before to get bitten by the NPCs
4) If the person asking for it doesn't want to look for a better deal pays the premium
5) /ignore is your friend

So, TBH, I don't really care about how you define the treatment they receive in zone chat

As far as I'm concerned, we agree on pretty much everything except the definition of a word.

I can live with that

Merlin13KAGL

@Aisle9 that's entirely too reasonable to not give you an Awesome.

Aisle9

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Aisle9 that's entirely too reasonable to not give you an Awesome.

Cheers, have one too

President_PUG

I don't charge for The "BITE" I charge for My time. You asking Me to stop what I'm doing try to find You and meet up. Mean while your on the phone with Bobbie Sue talking about dinner.. It's at least a courtesy to offer something. There is too damn much whining about ESO not giving away FREE STUFF ALL THE TIME already. If you can't afford to buy stuff get off the Computer and go get a job. Its not everyone, but dont come at Me like I owe you anything. I don't feel guilty at all telling you
brASS/grASS/or GAS nobody rides for free.

ChunkyCat

#BurnAllVampires
#VampFreeWorld
#BitingIsGross

TheForsake

Lets say for example,

It takes me 2 minutes to collect 3k gold.
It takes me 12 minutes to run skyreach by myself.
It takes 4 minutes for someone else to run me through skyreach for 3k gold.

This is just an example, the numbers are just made up, but you see the point. Why would I spend 12 minutes running 1 skyreach run if I can farm gold for 4 minutes and get 2 runs out of it in the same amount of time.

You ever hear the saying "time is money"?

Another thing to consider, most people who play this game are of the older generation.. they have jobs, kids, school etc. The little free time they have they spend playing this, they don't want to do something repetitive and boring. They rather just buy the boring part and spend the little time they have doing PvP, Dungeons, etc (pick your poison).

If it takes me 4 hours to farm a bite, and they make $30/hr. Then 4 hours of their time would cost them $120, when a bite is only like what $10-20?

Sevn

Aisle9 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Sevn wrote: »

Having been scammed out of gold when I was more of a noob looking for a bite I certainly look down on anyone charging for bites. It's not like you can get bitten and give gold simultaneously so it's always a risk with a stranger, which is usually the only ones available to bite you.

Unless you ask in guild chat.

Or friend list.

Or wait for the NPC at the spawn location.

Or buy it in the crown store...

Yeah, other than that, it's your only choice.

Didn't know usually had the same meaning of only. I guess you learn something every day.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but no. I'm not a native English speaker, but I'm fairly sure it's inaccurate. A second opinion may be needed, though.

According to the Merriam-Webster Usually means:
- according to the usual or ordinary course of things
- most often
- as a rule

while Only means:
- alone in a class or category

Then, again, when you combine them in a sentence like "it's usually the only choice" it might cause confusion.

Again, my advice is to look for a second opinion, I'm not a native speaker, they may have the same meaning in some context.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

I edited my post for clarity. You're really defensive about this subject. Just how much do you charge and how often have you been rebuffed for demanding payment for a bite? I assure you I wasn't one of them.

To answer your first question [ implied ], I'm defensive when I'm arguing against people that I perceive as dishonest, for using ad hominem arguments, rather than debate the my actual argument.

I know it's not the best way to deal with it, but I'm Italian, I'm loud and emotional, sue me.

To answer your second question:

Aisle9 wrote: »

[..]I don't bite anyone who's not in one of the guilds I'm in, regardless of how much they are willing to pay, because I offer it for free to guild members. If I give it to a stranger I might not have it for a guildie.[..]

Page 2, follow the link.



As for your original post (edited), if you're not in a guild you miss out on a lot of social advantages of a social game, including getting stuff for free, but sure, let's say you have reasons to not be a member of one.

My original argument was:

You get what you find. If you don't like the deal you're proposed, you are free to refuse the transaction and look for a better deal. If you can't be bothered/don't have time to look or wait for someone giving it away for free, you pay the premium.

At no point in time you are entitled to one, nor is within your right to belittle people offering it for money, nor is acceptable for you to bully someone into giving it up for free, if they don't want to, which is a direct response to the OP.

I'm using You in a conversational manner to define a hypothetical player looking for a bite, not you specifically.


Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

Fair enough, though not a single thing I posted was false, nor was there an hint of an ad hominem attack. I'm aware of the benefits of being in a guild, though as I stated my experience was when I was new to the game and guildmates weren't always available during my playing time. My issue was with the scammers that charge and run away, not with individuals who choose to charge, let me make that clear.

My original post was again from a personal perspective, nothing more nothing less.

Mattock_Romulus

In the amount of time i spent farming for a bite and leveling the skill line to unlock the bite ability i could have made at least 200k farming items to sell on the guild trader.

I don't waste my time biting strangers.

I'll give out my one free bite per week to guildies only.

If you think i owe you a free bite you can kiss right off.

Smasherx74

Biting someone gives you no benefits, it only takes a week to refresh, and most of the time WW/Vamps just aren't bothering to bite anyone. Now in days charging even for vampire bites is frowned upon. Typically you'll get a tip from non-new players you just gave a free bite to.

I saw someone in zone chat asking about paying for WW/Vamp WITH CROWNS. I always saw that option in crown store and can't imagine anyone who's played the game for more than a few days would actually pay for. Clearly it's targeting new players with no idea about the game, or maybe rich players who just want to contribute their money to the game. None the less I gave the dude a free bite explaining my gripes with ZOS having this as a buyable option in the crown store.

DuskMarine

Smasherx74 wrote: »

Biting someone gives you no benefits, it only takes a week to refresh, and most of the time WW/Vamps just aren't bothering to bite anyone. Now in days charging even for vampire bites is frowned upon. Typically you'll get a tip from non-new players you just gave a free bite to.

I saw someone in zone chat asking about paying for WW/Vamp WITH CROWNS. I always saw that option in crown store and can't imagine anyone who's played the game for more than a few days would actually pay for. Clearly it's targeting new players with no idea about the game, or maybe rich players who just want to contribute their money to the game. None the less I gave the dude a free bite explaining my gripes with ZOS having this as a buyable option in the crown store.

theres alot of vamps out there who would give a bite for free who have basically set the image of vampires in the community and they will witch hunt people if they try or even think of charging for a bite. werewolves normally give bites for free cause well.........no one really ever hunts for werewolf bites anymore cause its litterally a walking trashcan.

Robo_Hobo

I think it's just a remnent social custom from back when people were monopolizing werewolf and vampire bites.

It wasn't that people farmed for their bites, but that large groups actively hunted down the spawns even after they had their own bites, to prevent others from getting it naturally, so that the only way to get it was to buy it from them, and thus they made the prices as expensive as they could get away with. Couple that with them scamming people, taking their money for it and then just logging out, and it's no surprise that there's still some resentment toward the practice of selling bites, even in this time where it's not being monopolized or restricted anymore.

If all that stuff hadn't happened in the past, I think selling bites would have been a more socially acceptable thing to do today, but because of it, it isn't.

DaveMoeDee

Nothing wrong with charging. Nothing wrong with applying social pressure to get people to give bites for free. Both are fine.

What isn't okay was the griefing back in the day where people would try to drive up prices for bites by camping spawns so people couldn't get a bite from mobs. That history is a big reason people react like that. They are trying to keep the d-bags from taking over the in-game culture and maybe over-compensated.

Korah_Eaglecry

I think this goes back to the first days of the game. People regardless of level barreled into the higher zones in search for a bite. Every couple of days youd see packs of players congregating in random locations. At first it was confusing to find the right locations or even the right moon phases, there was a lot of misinformation out there because people wanted to sound like they knew something others didnt. Or they were purposely misleading others to the wrong areas in hopes to hoard the bites for themselves. Some of it was to try and force people to pay for it. Others were motivated to keep themselves special snowflakes.

One of the first guilds I belonged to had two guild leaders, both had already received their bites in early access, purposely lead guildies to the wrong spot so they could control who and who was not a Werewolf. All because they were leading an RP guild and thought they had some sort of right to decide on who could and could not be bitten. Eventually more werewolves and vampires joined the guild and started openly sharing the bites in spite of the leadership. As far as I know, no one paid. But there was definitely an attempt to force the rest of the guild to remain normies. Just so they could play their political games and have power over others and their experiences.

Kitty_Quietly

I always take my scratches in the wild. Bit of a diversion and adventure. Not hard, just might take a few days.

The biting others thing is cool though. Just today, I bit a couple people for free.It’s actually kind of fun in itself. I don’t read zone chat all the time but once in a great while I see people asking and head out.

The thing I wish though, is that we could somehow tell who said what when we switch characters. I bit one person, and another arived. I switch toons, head there as fas as possable see people needing bites and can’t remember names. I’m a huge scatterbrain. Well both that I bit thanked me, so all ended well I guess. Just never knew if I bit the person who asked!

Merlin13KAGL

TheForsake wrote: »

If it takes me 4 hours to farm a bite, and they make $30/hr. Then 4 hours of their time would cost them $120, when a bite is only like what $10-20?

If it takes you 4 hours to farm a bite:

• You're either checking the wrong place
• Have notoriously bad luck (never being logged in when it's dark)

It means you've effectively 'missed it' 239 times out of 240, assuming it takes a full minute to travel to wayshrine and associated area.

It doesn't involve lingering for four hours, as some are implying. And once you've figured out the spawns are active, you can relog to any character you have that needs a bite and knock it out all at once. I did this for about four of mine, and one of my originals contracted it on complete accident (I didn't even realize until I noticed it on the character sheet).

Check for dark. Check for spawns. Do other stuff. Odds are, somewhere in that otherwise 4 hours, you can probably get a bite at no cost.

Comparing to hourly rate will have to quitting the game in short order. I shudder to think about how much IRL $ I've spent selling trash from my inventory, deconning, in transit, or one of a hundred other mundane time fillers in this game.

It comes down to instant gratification. If you want it now, you'll do what you must to get it now, and that, by default gives it it's cost.

(And leveling the line is automatic, with any XP earned. So once you have the bite (unlike WW), it's impossible to not max the line. You don't even need to slot a single vamp skill, ever.)

0rnge

Early last year I decided I wanted to be a vamp and ask in zone chat a couple of times for a bite. I was a complete newbie at this time. Some guy whispered me and said he would bite me! Okay great, then he says for 10k. I had 20k saved up and thought this was okay so I went for it. I got to the riften shrine and he asked me to pay first, so I gave him half of my lifetime eso savings (was a lot to noob me) and then he buggered off.

Hands down the most horrible experience I ever had with the game, was also one of the first community interactions I had..

TLDR:
I'm biased but I think it's too easy to scam newbies by charging for bites being norm.

D0PAMINE

DuskMarine wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Bites have always been free if you find the NPCs. I have been giving away bites since April 2014. Why? Because I am not greedy.

It could be argued that expecting something for free is greedy as well.

its actually not greedy when so many people in the game are offering bites for free. theres more people willing to freely bite you than ones that charge. it is 100% against the community rules that players have set(not zoses rules) to even charge for bites. it kindve initiates a witch hunt at that point. its why if people are gonna ask them to pay they normally do it in whisper cause someone will litterally screw you out of your chance by offering for free and then berating you.

It deffinatly is like a witch hunt

D0PAMINE

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Because i'm against rip-offing people.

Yeah like those people selling over inflated guild store items right?

idk

I would laugh at anyone paying 10k for a bite these days.

KeiruNicrom

I believe this type of attitude is derived from a sort of rebellious action towards the bite selling days back at launch. Back then people would sell bites all the time and guilds would kill all the ww and vamp npcs whenever they could in order to keep selling bites for high prices. A few of us would give bites away but we were few in number comparatively.

These bite farming guilds frustrated people and the entire buisness became disliked and thought of as cruel/greedy. Once ZOS changed the npc spawns and more people got behind the free bite movement selling bites became a thing of the past. But the stigma remained. Selling bites was greedy and evil, no matter the reasoning

Tommy_The_Gun

Why do bites have to be free ?
Here's your answer:

SSlarg

I always charge as I feel my time has value.
I've beena vampire since the very first week.

DuskMarine

SSlarg wrote: »

I always charge as I feel my time has value.
I've beena vampire since the very first week.

pray you never run into anywhere with a huge vamp population youll be locked out of your bites alot if you charge for them.

SSlarg

DuskMarine wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

I always charge as I feel my time has value.
I've beena vampire since the very first week.

pray you never run into anywhere with a huge vamp population youll be locked out of your bites alot if you charge for them.

sorry I don't care what others think. I have sold two every week since the beginning. I'm just not silly enough to use Zone Chat lol

DuskMarine

SSlarg wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

I always charge as I feel my time has value.
I've beena vampire since the very first week.

pray you never run into anywhere with a huge vamp population youll be locked out of your bites alot if you charge for them.

sorry I don't care what others think. I have sold two every week since the beginning. I'm just not silly enough to use Zone Chat lol

there ya go lol. yea its only sellable through whisper cause making it public your gonna open up hells gate pretty quick.

SSlarg

DuskMarine wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

SSlarg wrote: »

I always charge as I feel my time has value.
I've beena vampire since the very first week.

pray you never run into anywhere with a huge vamp population youll be locked out of your bites alot if you charge for them.

sorry I don't care what others think. I have sold two every week since the beginning. I'm just not silly enough to use Zone Chat lol

there ya go lol. yea its only sellable through whisper cause making it public your gonna open up hells gate pretty quick.

Agreed, it's usually kids though. I turn on my headset and they shut right up lol

PrayingSeraph

I'm amazed at the people here defending charging for bites. There is SO MUCH more supply than demand on vampirism and WW. You can very easily find players who will give you a bite free of charge.

So yes, while you have the right to sell bites for whatever you want, keep in mind you WILL be ripping those players off. The reason people in chat jump on bite sellers is that people who sell bites prey on newbies who likely don't realize how common and easy to get bites are.

I'm an officer in a large social guild, and we enforce free bites only rule in the guild for guildmates.

coop500

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

I'm amazed at the people here defending charging for bites. There is SO MUCH more supply than demand on vampirism and WW. You can very easily find players who will give you a bite free of charge.

So yes, while you have the right to sell bites for whatever you want, keep in mind you WILL be ripping those players off. The reason people in chat jump on bite sellers is that people who sell bites prey on newbies who likely don't realize how common and easy to get bites are.

I'm an officer in a large social guild, and we enforce free bites only rule in the guild for guildmates.

To be fair I kinda gave up on explaining this to people, if they cared about not ripping people off they wouldn't do it in the first place.

Instead I do my part to give as many free bites as possible in hopes of helping to save a few people from this.