Should there be sets that resist oblivion damage?

Knowledge
Knowledge
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Oblivion damage has long been a controversial aspect of ESO.

According to the Elder Scrolls Wiki, it is defined as: Irresistible Damage, also known as Daedric Damage or Oblivion Damage is a type of magical damage. True to its name, it cannot be resisted by any damage reduction effects. Fortunately, sources of Irresistible Damage are very rare, being found mostly as set bonuses. Note that Irresistible Damage is not subject to Critical Strikes, so it is less effective against lightly armored opponents but more effective against heavily armored enemies or enemies who are Blocking or using a Damage Shield.

Oblivion damage can be accessed with simple weapon glyphs, crafted gear, among other sources. It is not rare at all and is very abundant at this time. The reason an irresistible damage source is controversial is because it removes counter play entirely.

First we need to understand what counter play is. Let's take a look at a short video that explains counter play to us.



What is important to note, as we've learned in that video, is that you can't just make an ability, weapon, or tool in a game fun for only the player that gets to use it. It must be interesting for the players that it gets used on. It should increase the number of meaningful choices for both players.

An irresistible damage source is not fun for both players and is not interesting for the player it is being used on. More importantly it removes an important aspect from the game which we like to call skill. We can go into detailed discussions about game theory and elaborate further on why it's abhorrent to add things that can't be countered in fun multiplayer games that people pay to play but I don't think that's necessary.

Therefore, i think there should be a set that can resist oblivion damage. I believe the sets five piece bonus should be something akin to (5) Mitigates Oblivion damage from all sources. I don't think this would be unfair as the player using it is giving up a lot of potential by taking a set with a five piece solely to counter oblivion damage whereas they could have a set that did more damage, did oblivion damage, or boosted their overall capability in terms of output.

EDIT 1: I have come up with a possible solution. A new set that doesn't mitigate the oblivion damage or lessen it in any fashion. However, it mirrors the oblivion damage dealt to you.

Daedric Mirror Set
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) All Oblivion damage dealt to you is also dealt to your attacker.
Edited by Knowledge on June 14, 2018 5:37PM
  • Hasenpfote
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    Daedric damage is bount to a little amount of special monsters and items. Commonly you dont find daedric damage in PvE, only if it is part of an encounter where it is the boss mechanic.

    City Guardians do deadric damage to bypass shields and its damage is skaling with combat time.

    If generic damage reduction is affecting daedric damage i dont know.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    idk wrote: »
    A chance to proc resistance to oblivion damage. Great idea.

    Seriously though, there is no resistance to oblivion damage. That is the point of it. Hence, no sets for this.

    I'm sure there could be a lore reason for the sets existence. Call it "Oblivion Armor" and argue it's imbued with similar properties to the oblivion damage it resists. There's much bigger lore gaps than a set that resists oblivion damage would add.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Hasenpfote wrote: »
    Daedric damage is bount to a little amount of special monsters and items. Commonly you dont find daedric damage in PvE, only if it is part of an encounter where it is the boss mechanic.

    City Guardians do deadric damage to bypass shields and its damage is skaling with combat time.

    If generic damage reduction is affecting daedric damage i dont know.

    It's more of an issue in PVP.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    ezio45 wrote: »
    no... just remove oblivion dmg from the game....

    It's clear that isn't going to happen as oblivion damage items have been recently added despite players asking for it to be removed. That is why I am suggesting this alternative.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.
  • Potenza
    Potenza
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".
  • idk
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    A chance to proc resistance to oblivion damage. Great idea.

    Seriously though, there is no resistance to oblivion damage. That is the point of it. Hence, no sets for this.

    I'm sure there could be a lore reason for the sets existence. Call it "Oblivion Armor" and argue it's imbued with similar properties to the oblivion damage it resists. There's much bigger lore gaps than a set that resists oblivion damage would add.

    There can be a lot of things. Superman can be added to lore.

    It is un-resistible damage according to lore meaning there is no resistance.
    Really, idk
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    idk wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    A chance to proc resistance to oblivion damage. Great idea.

    Seriously though, there is no resistance to oblivion damage. That is the point of it. Hence, no sets for this.

    I'm sure there could be a lore reason for the sets existence. Call it "Oblivion Armor" and argue it's imbued with similar properties to the oblivion damage it resists. There's much bigger lore gaps than a set that resists oblivion damage would add.

    There can be a lot of things. Superman can be added to lore.

    It is un-resistible damage according to lore meaning there is no resistance.

    The lore also says the damage is scarce and/or rare.

    Also the word would be irresistible as unresistable is not a word.
  • Potenza
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".

    Mitigation in this game is very high, especially in the CP parts of the game. Maybe the counter your looking for isnt what you think it might be - to counter may be to out dps the person hitting you with that particular damage or - dodge.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".

    Mitigation in this game is very high, especially in the CP parts of the game. Maybe the counter your looking for isnt what you think it might be - to counter may be to out dps the person hitting you with that particular damage or - dodge.

    Dodging is attached to a finite resource whereas light attacking is only hindered by the players ability to press the left mouse button. This is not a fair balance or proper counter play.
    Edited by Knowledge on June 14, 2018 4:02PM
  • Maryal
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    Let's look at this logically:

    Oblivion damage cannot be resisted.

    Damage that can be resisted cannot be oblivion damage.

    No armor can resist oblivion damage, not now and not in the future -it's a virtual impossibility.

    Therefore, asking if armor sets should resist oblivion damage is quite illogical.

    How likely is it that ZOS would change oblivion damage into something that could be resisted? Sloads is not the only source of oblivion damage, there are other armor sets as well as a weapon enchantment. But, oblivion damage is also part of the game design - there are game mechanics that deal oblivion damage as well. So, not only would this type of change require recoding what oblivion damage was, but it would also require an overhaul to the various game systems designed to include oblivion damage. I don't know about you, but I don't think this is going to happen.

    But, for the heck of it, lets just assume that ZOS went ahead and did all that - they changed oblivion damage is into a type of damage that could be resisted. Even if we assume this unlikely scenario were to occur, the question posed is still illogical because you wouldn't need a 'special armor set' to mitigate it ... any armor set would do.


    Edited by Maryal on June 14, 2018 4:28PM
  • ZOS_JesC
    ZOS_JesC
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  • Aurielle
    Aurielle
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    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Exactly. And let’s not forget that Oblivion damage is itself a counter to shield stacking.

    To the OP:

    2c81qe.jpg
    Edited by Aurielle on June 14, 2018 4:09PM
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  • Merlin13KAGL
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    So, back to rehashing old issues in new threads, I see.

    Oblivion damage is rare in the sense that not many creatures deal it and as a player, you specifically have to build for it.

    When you do, as with any build, you're sacrificing other things on the chance that your niche build might be effective.

    The fact that you're trying to use lore to justify resistance to the irresistible creates its own paradox.

    And for bonus points, @idk had it right. It's a rare word, but still, most definitely a word.

    The counter is health, healing, and dodging.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
  • TequilaFire
    TequilaFire
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    It is call healing. smh
    Any set that heals.
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  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Maryal wrote: »
    Let's look at this logically:

    Oblivion damage cannot be resisted.

    Damage that can be resisted cannot be oblivion damage.

    No armor can resist oblivion damage, not now and not in the future -it's a virtual impossibility.

    Therefore, asking if armor sets should resist oblivion damage is quite illogical.
    So, back to rehashing old issues in new threads, I see.

    Oblivion damage is rare in the sense that not many creatures deal it and as a player, you specifically have to build for it.

    When you do, as with any build, you're sacrificing other things on the chance that your niche build might be effective.

    The fact that you're trying to use lore to justify resistance to the irresistible creates its own paradox.

    And for bonus points, @idk had it right. It's a rare word, but still, most definitely a word.

    The counter is health, healing, and dodging.

    In PVP right now the use of oblivion damage is very rampant. It's also easy to get the sets because it is crafted. The set puts an "oblivion dot" on you. A lot of people are upset in the PVP community about this.
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    It is call healing. smh
    Any set that heals.

    If you have healing sets on, or everyone does, how would they deal enough damage in PVP to kill other players?
  • SilverIce58
    SilverIce58
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    Actually, if you want to go by lore, the most lore-friendly reason for not having anything to resist oblivion dmg is that at this point in time, researchers on Tamriel know little to nothing(compared to, say, Divayth Fyr/Seht/the Psijic Order) about the intricacies of oblivion or about its associated damage type. So adding something in to try to make it "lore-friendly" would actually be breaking lore.
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  • TequilaFire
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    It is call healing. smh
    Any set that heals.

    If you have healing sets on, or everyone does, how would they deal enough damage in PVP to kill other players?

    Same would go for a set that has resist Oblivion damage as it's main proc.
    Edited by TequilaFire on June 14, 2018 4:21PM
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  • dwemer_paleologist
    dwemer_paleologist
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".

    that is what i and the developers and also the forum users as well as various guilds thought when a few years ago sorcerers spammed their shields to the point that they only had 1% health and 99.9% shields. their build was geared for 100% damage and relied 99.9% on their shields making them impossible to kill, even when being attacked by Large Groups of people, so the result was Oblivion Damage.
    the idea of making a counter for the counter is redundant and makes void the counter and it's intention and inception.
    Therefore, an idea likewise to create a counter for a counter would be foolishness.
    please increase sneak speeds.

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  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Actually, if you want to go by lore, the most lore-friendly reason for not having anything to resist oblivion dmg is that at this point in time, researchers on Tamriel know little to nothing(compared to, say, Divayth Fyr/Seht/the Psijic Order) about the intricacies of oblivion or about its associated damage type. So adding something in to try to make it "lore-friendly" would actually be breaking lore.

    I think you are making valid points and I agree with you. However, if someone doesn't have the ability to make something resist oblivion damage how does someone have the ability to make an armor that deals oblivion damage?
  • Knowledge
    Knowledge
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    It is call healing. smh
    Any set that heals.

    If you have healing sets on, or everyone does, how would they deal enough damage in PVP to kill other players?

    Same would go for a set that has resist Oblivion damage as it's main proc.

    No, because a person wanting to heal in a meaningful way that isn't a Templar or Warden would need a restoration staff. While some builds allow for this it would be difficult for stamina classes to run around with a restoration staff and Vigor isn't going to be enough healing to save someone from Oblivion damage.
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".

    that is what i and the developers and also the forum users as well as various guilds thought when a few years ago sorcerers spammed their shields to the point that they only had 1% health and 99.9% shields. their build was geared for 100% damage and relied 99.9% on their shields making them impossible to kill, even when being attacked by Large Groups of people, so the result was Oblivion Damage.
    the idea of making a counter for the counter is redundant and makes void the counter and it's intention and inception.
    Therefore, an idea likewise to create a counter for a counter would be foolishness.

    There's a difference between countering the sorcerer shields and making them irrelevant. Oblivion damage makes a sorcerer's shield irrelevant and pointless. Breaking it down further because person A has item B person C(Sorcerer) automatically loses.
    Edited by Knowledge on June 14, 2018 4:26PM
  • Fiktius
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    Knowledge wrote: »

    In PVP right now the use of oblivion damage is very rampant. It's also easy to get the sets because it is crafted. The set puts an "oblivion dot" on you. A lot of people are upset in the PVP community about this.

    That a lot people are upset about something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't work as developers intended.
    People will always complain, what ever is added being in the game, what ever is buffed or what's being nerfed.
    It's impossible to satisfy everyone.
    (What I think about Sload, let's leave that to another topic which is actually Sload related, okay?)

    I find that video of yours quite ironic, because after watching it you should already know:
    Oblivion damage is actually a counter for something: Shield stacking.
    It seems like a lot people who are complaining about it, are actually being countered and for being able to react, they should also counter what is killing them: add more healing. Perhaps increase health pool slightly if there's need for it.
    Adjust your build, make it counter what's killing you most.

    And about the set itself, I would see it mostly as a waste of 5th item bonus. I can excellently counter Oblivion damage already, so personally I wouldn't use such a set at first place, but I guess some who are unable to adjust their build to counter Oblivion damage would see that set usefull - if they are willing to sacrifice entire 5th item bonus for it.
  • dwemer_paleologist
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    Knowledge wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    It is call healing. smh
    Any set that heals.

    If you have healing sets on, or everyone does, how would they deal enough damage in PVP to kill other players?

    Same would go for a set that has resist Oblivion damage as it's main proc.

    No, because a person wanting to heal in a meaningful way that isn't a Templar or Warden would need a restoration staff. While some builds allow for this it would be difficult for stamina classes to run around with a restoration staff and Vigor isn't going to be enough healing to save someone from Oblivion damage.
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    Knowledge wrote: »
    Potenza wrote: »
    It obviously has its limitations as you stated - just like most other types of damage so its balanced. This is a nerf thread.

    It's a thread requesting the ability to counter something in a game with more than one player.

    Its health damage. To invest in high health is the way to mitigate it. I get hit with this damage too and it hurts, but I don't expect to have a counter for everything in the game.

    Well, when you have no ability to counter something or counter play does not exist then you are not really playing a "game".

    that is what i and the developers and also the forum users as well as various guilds thought when a few years ago sorcerers spammed their shields to the point that they only had 1% health and 99.9% shields. their build was geared for 100% damage and relied 99.9% on their shields making them impossible to kill, even when being attacked by Large Groups of people, so the result was Oblivion Damage.
    the idea of making a counter for the counter is redundant and makes void the counter and it's intention and inception.
    Therefore, an idea likewise to create a counter for a counter would be foolishness.

    There's a difference between countering the sorcerer shields and making them irrelevant. Oblivion damage makes a sorcerer's sheild irrelevant and pointless. Breaking it down further because person A has item B person C(Sorcerer) automatically loses.

    that is not the result seen ingame and never has been, both the sorcerer and the oblivion damage caster are on equal footing when oblivion damage is used against their shields.
    infact you see sorcerers RACE to attack the oblivion damage caster and very often kill the oblivion caster long before the sorcerer shields die.
    please increase sneak speeds.

    PC NA

  • Vaoh
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    I really wish I spent absolutely all of my time PvPing when this game launched, and totally avoided PvE. There was legitimate balance back then. Complaints weren’t that large and only related to random outstanding things that were a bit too strong or what not. Everyone had so much fun and the population so much higher.

    Nowadays? What a mess ESO PvP has become.
    Edited by Vaoh on June 14, 2018 4:29PM
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