JC Max Tier Writs = Bugged 100%

redspecter23

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Actually, if the 6 new jewellery traits would get the potent nirn treatment (28-50 voucher) and the 3 old jewellery traits fill the gap at lower trier master writs (6-10 voucher) it should be quite balanced again.

Please hold your pitchforks and listen: Jewellery crafting is grindy, agreed. We may safely assume its intended to be this way and going to be a little easier in a year or two. The one thing that makes a 10-voucher swift writ a rip off atm, are the traitstone cost, nothing else. Adjusting the writ value to bring it in line with other crafts traitstones (i.e. if you actively have to work for it = its rare = a better modifier for writ value) seems the best answer to solve the discrepancy between JC writs and those of other crafts.

You still have the 10x material requirement to factor in.

Well, not sure I get your point -> i just did factor the 10*material requirement in. Just maybe not the way you like it.

To elaborate: I don't think a simple 10* multiplier will do, simply because it will make jewellery writs undaubtedly much more favourable to do then any other writs (Just imagine how far you would go for a 1k or even 2k voucher master writ!). So, no imo just increasing the vouchers granted by 10 doesn't solve anything, its just going to be player-favoured unbalanced that way.

I also do not like the idea of scaling down improvement requirements one level. I liked that idea at first, but then i started thinking about the uses of golden jewellery. Even with master writs, golden jewellery is a 99,9% luxury item only. Players don't "need" olden jewellery, and those that do run content that rewards golden jewellery (vet trails, PVP, HM dungeons, vMA) ...
In a scenario with blue and purple JC writs only, golden JC mats will become a pure luxury item, with no purpose.
I don't like that and I do think that should not happen.

A third "fix" I saw mentioned would be to plainly add 20 voucher to any jewellery master writ, to account for the costs of traitstones. Seems a simple solution, but imo, this will affect overall distribution of master writs negatively. If JC writs only start at 20+ voucher, will they drop with the same rate other writs (i.e. those starting at 2 / 5 or 6 voucher per writ), or will they drop with a lower rate to reflect their voucher value? I don#t think their is any simple answer to solve this, because up to now the chance of getting a master writ is quite balanced throughout the different crafts.

Thats why I think the best solution is to treat the new JC traits like nirn / roe when calculating writ value (taking the 10* cost into account) AND including old JC traits for lower-value writs to keep overall writvalue (across all trades) at balance.

Sure, one may argue that you'll need 10 antimony/pulverised zinc etc for the old traits as well, but does any of you really have to put in any efford to stock those up? Especially when compared to nirn or perfect roe i can safely assume your answer will be: No.

The real question then is, if a legendary JC master writ rewarded 120 vouchers instead of 100, would you do it? What percentage of the players would do it? In my opinion, the 10x mat cost absolutely has to be considered for the reward to be viable. If I'm just looking for vouchers and I go to the store to shop for master writs, will I pick up the blacksmithing one for 250 vouchers or the JC one for 140? The JC one will cost over 10 times the amount of gold to create and the BS one still rewards more vouchers anyway.

Part of the increased material cost right now is the 10x mat requirement. A tempering alloy may be 6k but a chromium plating is 80k. Still more than 10 x the cost. The scarcity is only partly because they are still new. There are also no hirelings, which will bring supply down and they are not rewarded from daily writs, also keeping the supply low. Assuming neither of these things change, the cost will never drop down to 6000 gold per plating. It's just not a possibility. Due to this fact, a JC master writ will never be favorable compared to other master writs unless there is a more significant change than +20 vouchers.

I would not consider doing them now, but like all other master writs I might consider doing them in a year (when i am not buying the mats, but collected them). I do remember how painfull it was to even start doing master writs and since I only started collecting motifs once master writs were introduced it does feel quite similar. Sure, now a legendary master writ in blacksmithing, tailoring etc isn't much of a problem anymore for me, but when I started I had to put in alot of thought in even beeing able to complete the epic ones. I might be wrong, but I think crafted/upgraded legendary jewellery will not be as important as legendary weapons (with the expetions I named above) or legendary armor (for medium and light armor wearers) ... so I think even with chromium stocking up painfully slowly we will reach a point when demand is saturated by what the markets offer. Its just going to take some time.

Equally important, I expect that the pricing for chromium will not go down much. Imo it doesn't need too either, its a luxury item. Even for the hardest endgame content most jewellery just doesn't offer any important buff when looking at the difference between purple to golden quality. But really, are mastercrafter really shopping for the materials they need for writs? I don't, not anymore. Collected mats don't have a cost, only a value.

You say yourself that chromium won't go down in price. I do agree with that. If there are no other system changes, it should stay similar to what it's at now, perhaps a bit lower. You could do these writs in a year after you accumulate enough materials, but couldn't you, instead of that, sell those gold and purple mats and buy tempering alloy and grain solvent and do blacksmithing writs instead? I'm not saying you can't do the jewelry writs. Of course over time a person can accumulate the materials to do them. I'm saying (and you're agreeing) that the cost of doing these writs is not likely to go down much over time. Why waste the gold mats? You could just sell them and use that gold to buy the items you would have spent the vouchers on anyway. It's like throwing away gold to do a jewelry master writ.

As said: collected mats don't have a cost, only a value. If i want to get anything voucher only thingy the value of 8 chromium platings might just be 120 voucher... considering I already payed a lot of gold for motif pages, just to be able to complete 1 6-7 voucher writ it doesn't seem too far off.

But those 8 chromium platings could be sold for 640,000 gold (at 80k each). 120 vouchers is worth approximately 120,000 gold. Like I said, you can do that. It's up to you, but please understand that it's a massive loss.

Undoubtedly it looks like a massive loss now. Remember when kuta was rare? Even at 10k per kuta, I would rather store then sell it (just so I have enought for myself when needed). Its an individual choice and anyone taking the 10k would just be as happy as i was when I needed that kuta for my gear.

Nevertheless, there is something I like to point out again as you as well as i have missed it in the argument. My proposal included to treat the 6 new jewellery traits like potent nirn (i.e. in the formular it would be working multiplicative (just not a 10* multiplier). Hence those (now) 100 voucher writs may safely be expectet to mimic the legendary * potent nirn * (rare) set master writs. For rarer sets that would be ~ 238 voucher, which is a considerable value, i guess. Equally the new jewellery trait * epic * (rare) set writs would be comparable to epic * potent nirn * (rare) set master writs ... with a value of ~ 40- 60 voucher. Just the epic * old jewellery trait * (rare) set writs would have a chance for a value below 20 voucher.

Just please don't forget, I don#t just want a + 20 voucher addition, but a reasonable change of how the writ value is calculated to bring it more in line with other crafts.

Where you see 238 as potentially viable, my estimated number would be closer to 1500. We both want the same outcome. An adjustment to the system to make these writs worth doing. We just differ on where that number needs to be in order to be viable and comparable to other writs. If they add hirelings and fix max tier jewelry writs, the added mats could help the situation by a huge amount and I'd change my number from 1500 to something much lower.

Armatesz

I have gotten 2 master writs for making swift... one 8 and the other 9... wtf. Please add hirelings and make them get chances to get all traits...

redspecter23

Another patch. No fix and still more silence.

I'm done asking for fixes for now. All I want is acknowledgement from the devs that they are aware that this is an issue.

Acknowledgement please.

redspecter23

20 days of complete developer silence on this issue.

ZOS please can you comment on the problems addressed in this thread?

@ZOS_GinaBruno do you have anything for us at all?

Cpt_Teemo

redspecter23 wrote: »

20 days of complete developer silence on this issue.

ZOS please can you comment on the problems addressed in this thread?

@ZOS_GinaBruno do you have anything for us at all?

Yeah I guess it is working as intended which really does suck

redspecter23

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

20 days of complete developer silence on this issue.

ZOS please can you comment on the problems addressed in this thread?

@ZOS_GinaBruno do you have anything for us at all?

Yeah I guess it is working as intended which really does suck

I'm not ready to give up just yet. I have some faith left that this can't be working as intended. At minimum, they have to know that the master writs are just wrong. There is no way that element is working as intended. As long as master writs are broken, then max tier writs are also broken as there is absolutely zero reason to do higher level tiers. It all ties together. My ideal solution would be to fix max tier writs to line up with the other 3 equipment crafts as far as rewards go, but at this point I'll accept any sort of confirmation that they are at least aware of an issue. The dead silence has my conspiracy theories running wild. Are all the JC threads being ignored on purpose? Or are they all being missed by the devs just because of random chance? If it's the latter, we just have to keep the thread alive and the issue relevant. It will get noticed eventually. If it's the former, then one has to wonder, why all the silence?

Cpt_Teemo

redspecter23 wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

20 days of complete developer silence on this issue.

ZOS please can you comment on the problems addressed in this thread?

@ZOS_GinaBruno do you have anything for us at all?

Yeah I guess it is working as intended which really does suck

I'm not ready to give up just yet. I have some faith left that this can't be working as intended. At minimum, they have to know that the master writs are just wrong. There is no way that element is working as intended. As long as master writs are broken, then max tier writs are also broken as there is absolutely zero reason to do higher level tiers. It all ties together. My ideal solution would be to fix max tier writs to line up with the other 3 equipment crafts as far as rewards go, but at this point I'll accept any sort of confirmation that they are at least aware of an issue. The dead silence has my conspiracy theories running wild. Are all the JC threads being ignored on purpose? Or are they all being missed by the devs just because of random chance? If it's the latter, we just have to keep the thread alive and the issue relevant. It will get noticed eventually. If it's the former, then one has to wonder, why all the silence?

I'm more worried about the daily writ rewards than the MW's tbh, there is absolutely no profit in doing the top tier JC writs since they always give those useless trait upgrades rather than the grains like the other crafts do sucks

Jaraal

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

Imagine a bunch of devs sitting around, planning how jewelcrafting works. They get everything hammered out, then one dev says, "Hey, let's make this unrealistically hard; throw in some master writs that cost more to make than the rewards they pay out, make chromium grains drop more from refining pewter than platinum, make the swift trait pieces ridiculously rare (etc, etc).... and then when the protest gets loud enough, we will go in and fix everything the way it was originally intended to be..... and our customers will be eternally grateful! Just like we did with the massive ad spam on every character login plan! We "fixed" it, and look how happy they are now! They will start threads about how ZOS really listens to player feedback, how hard the devs are working behind the scenes to make things right....."

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

Amadis001

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game. And they would rather err on the side of "too hard/too scarce" than of "too easy/too common", because it's easier to adjust up than down without flipping everyone out. What's more, it extends to grind. They don't want to have accidentally given everyone a fast path to tons of gold jewelry.

redspecter23

Amadis001 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game. And they would rather err on the side of "too hard/too scarce" than of "too easy/too common", because it's easier to adjust up than down without flipping everyone out. What's more, it extends to grind. They don't want to have accidentally given everyone a fast path to tons of gold jewelry.

There may be something to this. Certainly they have err'ed to the extreme end of scarce, but it still doesn't explain the kindergarten math used to figure out the master writs. In the case of swift, you create it at a loss. That's not just scarce, that's negative gains. So while I believe that there was a decision made for this to be a more grindy process, it still isn't completely balanced within its own linked systems. JC can be grindy and still balanced, but what we have is grindy and broken.

Jaraal

Amadis001 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game.

They know exactly what they are doing by requiring 10 grains to make one mat, rather than just getting one mat from decon / refining, etc. How could you not know making something 10 times as scarce would make it cost 10 times as much? And rewarding 8 vouchers for something that costs 20 vouchers (+mats) to make? That they knew about before sending to live? Only explainable as deliberate.

Cpt_Teemo

Jaraal wrote: »

Amadis001 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game.

They know exactly what they are doing by requiring 10 grains to make one mat, rather than just getting one mat from decon / refining, etc. How could you not know making something 10 times as scarce would make it cost 10 times as much? And rewarding 8 vouchers for something that costs 20 vouchers (+mats) to make? That they knew about before sending to live? Only explainable as deliberate.

Also for the fact the daily writs only drop those stupid trait grains rather than the actual gear upgrade grains like the rest of the craftings do really needs a fix to this, also add hirelings to counter out the horrid droprates

Linaleah

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Actually, if the 6 new jewellery traits would get the potent nirn treatment (28-50 voucher) and the 3 old jewellery traits fill the gap at lower trier master writs (6-10 voucher) it should be quite balanced again.

Please hold your pitchforks and listen: Jewellery crafting is grindy, agreed. We may safely assume its intended to be this way and going to be a little easier in a year or two. The one thing that makes a 10-voucher swift writ a rip off atm, are the traitstone cost, nothing else. Adjusting the writ value to bring it in line with other crafts traitstones (i.e. if you actively have to work for it = its rare = a better modifier for writ value) seems the best answer to solve the discrepancy between JC writs and those of other crafts.

You still have the 10x material requirement to factor in.

Well, not sure I get your point -> i just did factor the 10*material requirement in. Just maybe not the way you like it.

To elaborate: I don't think a simple 10* multiplier will do, simply because it will make jewellery writs undaubtedly much more favourable to do then any other writs (Just imagine how far you would go for a 1k or even 2k voucher master writ!). So, no imo just increasing the vouchers granted by 10 doesn't solve anything, its just going to be player-favoured unbalanced that way.

I also do not like the idea of scaling down improvement requirements one level. I liked that idea at first, but then i started thinking about the uses of golden jewellery. Even with master writs, golden jewellery is a 99,9% luxury item only. Players don't "need" olden jewellery, and those that do run content that rewards golden jewellery (vet trails, PVP, HM dungeons, vMA) ...
In a scenario with blue and purple JC writs only, golden JC mats will become a pure luxury item, with no purpose.
I don't like that and I do think that should not happen.

A third "fix" I saw mentioned would be to plainly add 20 voucher to any jewellery master writ, to account for the costs of traitstones. Seems a simple solution, but imo, this will affect overall distribution of master writs negatively. If JC writs only start at 20+ voucher, will they drop with the same rate other writs (i.e. those starting at 2 / 5 or 6 voucher per writ), or will they drop with a lower rate to reflect their voucher value? I don#t think their is any simple answer to solve this, because up to now the chance of getting a master writ is quite balanced throughout the different crafts.

Thats why I think the best solution is to treat the new JC traits like nirn / roe when calculating writ value (taking the 10* cost into account) AND including old JC traits for lower-value writs to keep overall writvalue (across all trades) at balance.

Sure, one may argue that you'll need 10 antimony/pulverised zinc etc for the old traits as well, but does any of you really have to put in any efford to stock those up? Especially when compared to nirn or perfect roe i can safely assume your answer will be: No.

The real question then is, if a legendary JC master writ rewarded 120 vouchers instead of 100, would you do it? What percentage of the players would do it? In my opinion, the 10x mat cost absolutely has to be considered for the reward to be viable. If I'm just looking for vouchers and I go to the store to shop for master writs, will I pick up the blacksmithing one for 250 vouchers or the JC one for 140? The JC one will cost over 10 times the amount of gold to create and the BS one still rewards more vouchers anyway.

Part of the increased material cost right now is the 10x mat requirement. A tempering alloy may be 6k but a chromium plating is 80k. Still more than 10 x the cost. The scarcity is only partly because they are still new. There are also no hirelings, which will bring supply down and they are not rewarded from daily writs, also keeping the supply low. Assuming neither of these things change, the cost will never drop down to 6000 gold per plating. It's just not a possibility. Due to this fact, a JC master writ will never be favorable compared to other master writs unless there is a more significant change than +20 vouchers.

I would not consider doing them now, but like all other master writs I might consider doing them in a year (when i am not buying the mats, but collected them). I do remember how painfull it was to even start doing master writs and since I only started collecting motifs once master writs were introduced it does feel quite similar. Sure, now a legendary master writ in blacksmithing, tailoring etc isn't much of a problem anymore for me, but when I started I had to put in alot of thought in even beeing able to complete the epic ones. I might be wrong, but I think crafted/upgraded legendary jewellery will not be as important as legendary weapons (with the expetions I named above) or legendary armor (for medium and light armor wearers) ... so I think even with chromium stocking up painfully slowly we will reach a point when demand is saturated by what the markets offer. Its just going to take some time.

Equally important, I expect that the pricing for chromium will not go down much. Imo it doesn't need too either, its a luxury item. Even for the hardest endgame content most jewellery just doesn't offer any important buff when looking at the difference between purple to golden quality. But really, are mastercrafter really shopping for the materials they need for writs? I don't, not anymore. Collected mats don't have a cost, only a value.

the ONLY reason it may have been painful, at least for me was becasue of the styles. NOT mats. STYLES. and well.. finishing up research.

aside from that I could farm up more then enough materials to craft a master writs, back when they first came out? in one short afternoon of farming, 2-3 hours TOPS. NOT an exaggeration. yes, even for nirn. that's how long it typically takes me to get potent to drop, and mats I get in that peroid of farming generally refine into enough upgrade materials to cover the rest of the cost. yes, that includes gold tempers.

jewelry crafting writs will ALWAYS be a pain as long as requirements, rewards and droprates stay as they are. becasue it takes a hell of a lot longer then a short afternoon of farming to get anywhere near enough mats to finish a jewelry writ.

and the worst part... its longer then 10 times as much farming to get one chromium plating, at least in my experience. with all the passives, I still don't get grains nearly as often from refining, as I do other gold mats.

Linaleah

Amadis001 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game. And they would rather err on the side of "too hard/too scarce" than of "too easy/too common", because it's easier to adjust up than down without flipping everyone out. What's more, it extends to grind. They don't want to have accidentally given everyone a fast path to tons of gold jewelry.

but... even if you don't take economy into account... even if you completely ignore the economy and only look at the droprates themselves. this is STILL broken. asking to spend more vouchers than you get back is BROKEN. a writ that takes 10's as long to farm mats for as every other crafting skill, but still rewards the same number of vouchers as every other crafting skill. IS BROKEN.

Elsterchen

Linaleah wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Actually, if the 6 new jewellery traits would get the potent nirn treatment (28-50 voucher) and the 3 old jewellery traits fill the gap at lower trier master writs (6-10 voucher) it should be quite balanced again.

Please hold your pitchforks and listen: Jewellery crafting is grindy, agreed. We may safely assume its intended to be this way and going to be a little easier in a year or two. The one thing that makes a 10-voucher swift writ a rip off atm, are the traitstone cost, nothing else. Adjusting the writ value to bring it in line with other crafts traitstones (i.e. if you actively have to work for it = its rare = a better modifier for writ value) seems the best answer to solve the discrepancy between JC writs and those of other crafts.

You still have the 10x material requirement to factor in.

Well, not sure I get your point -> i just did factor the 10*material requirement in. Just maybe not the way you like it.

To elaborate: I don't think a simple 10* multiplier will do, simply because it will make jewellery writs undaubtedly much more favourable to do then any other writs (Just imagine how far you would go for a 1k or even 2k voucher master writ!). So, no imo just increasing the vouchers granted by 10 doesn't solve anything, its just going to be player-favoured unbalanced that way.

I also do not like the idea of scaling down improvement requirements one level. I liked that idea at first, but then i started thinking about the uses of golden jewellery. Even with master writs, golden jewellery is a 99,9% luxury item only. Players don't "need" olden jewellery, and those that do run content that rewards golden jewellery (vet trails, PVP, HM dungeons, vMA) ...
In a scenario with blue and purple JC writs only, golden JC mats will become a pure luxury item, with no purpose.
I don't like that and I do think that should not happen.

A third "fix" I saw mentioned would be to plainly add 20 voucher to any jewellery master writ, to account for the costs of traitstones. Seems a simple solution, but imo, this will affect overall distribution of master writs negatively. If JC writs only start at 20+ voucher, will they drop with the same rate other writs (i.e. those starting at 2 / 5 or 6 voucher per writ), or will they drop with a lower rate to reflect their voucher value? I don#t think their is any simple answer to solve this, because up to now the chance of getting a master writ is quite balanced throughout the different crafts.

Thats why I think the best solution is to treat the new JC traits like nirn / roe when calculating writ value (taking the 10* cost into account) AND including old JC traits for lower-value writs to keep overall writvalue (across all trades) at balance.

Sure, one may argue that you'll need 10 antimony/pulverised zinc etc for the old traits as well, but does any of you really have to put in any efford to stock those up? Especially when compared to nirn or perfect roe i can safely assume your answer will be: No.

The real question then is, if a legendary JC master writ rewarded 120 vouchers instead of 100, would you do it? What percentage of the players would do it? In my opinion, the 10x mat cost absolutely has to be considered for the reward to be viable. If I'm just looking for vouchers and I go to the store to shop for master writs, will I pick up the blacksmithing one for 250 vouchers or the JC one for 140? The JC one will cost over 10 times the amount of gold to create and the BS one still rewards more vouchers anyway.

Part of the increased material cost right now is the 10x mat requirement. A tempering alloy may be 6k but a chromium plating is 80k. Still more than 10 x the cost. The scarcity is only partly because they are still new. There are also no hirelings, which will bring supply down and they are not rewarded from daily writs, also keeping the supply low. Assuming neither of these things change, the cost will never drop down to 6000 gold per plating. It's just not a possibility. Due to this fact, a JC master writ will never be favorable compared to other master writs unless there is a more significant change than +20 vouchers.

I would not consider doing them now, but like all other master writs I might consider doing them in a year (when i am not buying the mats, but collected them). I do remember how painfull it was to even start doing master writs and since I only started collecting motifs once master writs were introduced it does feel quite similar. Sure, now a legendary master writ in blacksmithing, tailoring etc isn't much of a problem anymore for me, but when I started I had to put in alot of thought in even beeing able to complete the epic ones. I might be wrong, but I think crafted/upgraded legendary jewellery will not be as important as legendary weapons (with the expetions I named above) or legendary armor (for medium and light armor wearers) ... so I think even with chromium stocking up painfully slowly we will reach a point when demand is saturated by what the markets offer. Its just going to take some time.

Equally important, I expect that the pricing for chromium will not go down much. Imo it doesn't need too either, its a luxury item. Even for the hardest endgame content most jewellery just doesn't offer any important buff when looking at the difference between purple to golden quality. But really, are mastercrafter really shopping for the materials they need for writs? I don't, not anymore. Collected mats don't have a cost, only a value.

the ONLY reason it may have been painful, at least for me was becasue of the styles. NOT mats. STYLES. and well.. finishing up research.

aside from that I could farm up more then enough materials to craft a master writs, back when they first came out? in one short afternoon of farming, 2-3 hours TOPS. NOT an exaggeration. yes, even for nirn. that's how long it typically takes me to get potent to drop, and mats I get in that peroid of farming generally refine into enough upgrade materials to cover the rest of the cost. yes, that includes gold tempers.

jewelry crafting writs will ALWAYS be a pain as long as requirements, rewards and droprates stay as they are. becasue it takes a hell of a lot longer then a short afternoon of farming to get anywhere near enough mats to finish a jewelry writ.

and the worst part... its longer then 10 times as much farming to get one chromium plating, at least in my experience. with all the passives, I still don't get grains nearly as often from refining, as I do other gold mats.

I agree the styles have been most painfull in other crafts not the mats. Yet in jewellery crafting we don't have styles. Its just my personal opinion, and its fine if you disagree, but I do see some need to make jewellery crafting valuable.

I am not happy with the 10*mats requirement and certainly think master writs that cost more voucher then they yield are completely broken and need to be looked at. I completely agree that in its current state beeing a level 50 jewellery crafter is not rewarding and that needs to be adjusted, too. Imo, beeing a mastercrafter in jewellery should (at minimum) enable one to do dailies on a cost-neutral basis regarding the influx and outfux of mats.
If we are lucky, one may get a small plus by doing dailies. ... Thats the balance we have for other crafts and thats what we need for JC.

Linaleah

Elsterchen wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Actually, if the 6 new jewellery traits would get the potent nirn treatment (28-50 voucher) and the 3 old jewellery traits fill the gap at lower trier master writs (6-10 voucher) it should be quite balanced again.

Please hold your pitchforks and listen: Jewellery crafting is grindy, agreed. We may safely assume its intended to be this way and going to be a little easier in a year or two. The one thing that makes a 10-voucher swift writ a rip off atm, are the traitstone cost, nothing else. Adjusting the writ value to bring it in line with other crafts traitstones (i.e. if you actively have to work for it = its rare = a better modifier for writ value) seems the best answer to solve the discrepancy between JC writs and those of other crafts.

You still have the 10x material requirement to factor in.

Well, not sure I get your point -> i just did factor the 10*material requirement in. Just maybe not the way you like it.

To elaborate: I don't think a simple 10* multiplier will do, simply because it will make jewellery writs undaubtedly much more favourable to do then any other writs (Just imagine how far you would go for a 1k or even 2k voucher master writ!). So, no imo just increasing the vouchers granted by 10 doesn't solve anything, its just going to be player-favoured unbalanced that way.

I also do not like the idea of scaling down improvement requirements one level. I liked that idea at first, but then i started thinking about the uses of golden jewellery. Even with master writs, golden jewellery is a 99,9% luxury item only. Players don't "need" olden jewellery, and those that do run content that rewards golden jewellery (vet trails, PVP, HM dungeons, vMA) ...
In a scenario with blue and purple JC writs only, golden JC mats will become a pure luxury item, with no purpose.
I don't like that and I do think that should not happen.

A third "fix" I saw mentioned would be to plainly add 20 voucher to any jewellery master writ, to account for the costs of traitstones. Seems a simple solution, but imo, this will affect overall distribution of master writs negatively. If JC writs only start at 20+ voucher, will they drop with the same rate other writs (i.e. those starting at 2 / 5 or 6 voucher per writ), or will they drop with a lower rate to reflect their voucher value? I don#t think their is any simple answer to solve this, because up to now the chance of getting a master writ is quite balanced throughout the different crafts.

Thats why I think the best solution is to treat the new JC traits like nirn / roe when calculating writ value (taking the 10* cost into account) AND including old JC traits for lower-value writs to keep overall writvalue (across all trades) at balance.

Sure, one may argue that you'll need 10 antimony/pulverised zinc etc for the old traits as well, but does any of you really have to put in any efford to stock those up? Especially when compared to nirn or perfect roe i can safely assume your answer will be: No.

The real question then is, if a legendary JC master writ rewarded 120 vouchers instead of 100, would you do it? What percentage of the players would do it? In my opinion, the 10x mat cost absolutely has to be considered for the reward to be viable. If I'm just looking for vouchers and I go to the store to shop for master writs, will I pick up the blacksmithing one for 250 vouchers or the JC one for 140? The JC one will cost over 10 times the amount of gold to create and the BS one still rewards more vouchers anyway.

Part of the increased material cost right now is the 10x mat requirement. A tempering alloy may be 6k but a chromium plating is 80k. Still more than 10 x the cost. The scarcity is only partly because they are still new. There are also no hirelings, which will bring supply down and they are not rewarded from daily writs, also keeping the supply low. Assuming neither of these things change, the cost will never drop down to 6000 gold per plating. It's just not a possibility. Due to this fact, a JC master writ will never be favorable compared to other master writs unless there is a more significant change than +20 vouchers.

I would not consider doing them now, but like all other master writs I might consider doing them in a year (when i am not buying the mats, but collected them). I do remember how painfull it was to even start doing master writs and since I only started collecting motifs once master writs were introduced it does feel quite similar. Sure, now a legendary master writ in blacksmithing, tailoring etc isn't much of a problem anymore for me, but when I started I had to put in alot of thought in even beeing able to complete the epic ones. I might be wrong, but I think crafted/upgraded legendary jewellery will not be as important as legendary weapons (with the expetions I named above) or legendary armor (for medium and light armor wearers) ... so I think even with chromium stocking up painfully slowly we will reach a point when demand is saturated by what the markets offer. Its just going to take some time.

Equally important, I expect that the pricing for chromium will not go down much. Imo it doesn't need too either, its a luxury item. Even for the hardest endgame content most jewellery just doesn't offer any important buff when looking at the difference between purple to golden quality. But really, are mastercrafter really shopping for the materials they need for writs? I don't, not anymore. Collected mats don't have a cost, only a value.

the ONLY reason it may have been painful, at least for me was becasue of the styles. NOT mats. STYLES. and well.. finishing up research.

aside from that I could farm up more then enough materials to craft a master writs, back when they first came out? in one short afternoon of farming, 2-3 hours TOPS. NOT an exaggeration. yes, even for nirn. that's how long it typically takes me to get potent to drop, and mats I get in that peroid of farming generally refine into enough upgrade materials to cover the rest of the cost. yes, that includes gold tempers.

jewelry crafting writs will ALWAYS be a pain as long as requirements, rewards and droprates stay as they are. becasue it takes a hell of a lot longer then a short afternoon of farming to get anywhere near enough mats to finish a jewelry writ.

and the worst part... its longer then 10 times as much farming to get one chromium plating, at least in my experience. with all the passives, I still don't get grains nearly as often from refining, as I do other gold mats.

I agree the styles have been most painfull in other crafts not the mats. Yet in jewellery crafting we don't have styles. Its just my personal opinion, and its fine if you disagree, but I do see some need to make jewellery crafting valuable.

I am not happy with the 10*mats requirement and certainly think master writs that cost more voucher then they yield are completely broken and need to be looked at. I completely agree that in its current state beeing a level 50 jewellery crafter is not rewarding and that needs to be adjusted, too. Imo, beeing a mastercrafter in jewellery should (at minimum) enable one to do dailies on a cost-neutral basis regarding the influx and outfux of mats.
If we are lucky, one may get a small plus by doing dailies. ... Thats the balance we have for other crafts and thats what we need for JC.

the thing about learning styles is that they are one time expense. jewelry upgrade mats and trait stones? are ONGOING expense. that is the difference. moreover, right now we have more then one reason to collect variety of styles and that reason is outfit designer. with jewelry... its just ongoing expensive that will NEVER get any better, will ALWAYS be 10 times as expensive as other crafting professions. prices will drop slightly but they will NEVER drop anywhere near the level of upgrade mats for other professions, because... they are more then 10 times as rare!

which is why unless either voucher rewards or (and this is my preference) the whole upgrade system is fixed. there is no time in a lifetime of the game where i can see jc master writs being even remotely viable to craft.

Cpt_Teemo

Fix Drop rates please for Grains ^ also add hirelings for alchemy & jcing

Asardes

I haven't found any meaningful difference between doing tier 1 and tier 5 writs, upgrades wise. I have yet to see any chromium grain for either, as all my 40 or so thus far have come either from refining or deconstructing trial jerwelry. Most of the times is eithe a powdered healthy/arcane/robust or green, blue and very rarely purple upgrade. I only do them for the surveys, monetary reward and because they were easy to incorporate in the already established routine; also tier 1 is almost self sustaining since the pewter is mostly refunded trough ounces and intricat jewels.

Currently running 2 tier 5 and 12 tier 1 writs, will slowly level the skill on the latter, as it is clear that power leveling isn't worth it; chars take 2-3 weeks deconstructing whatever useless white/green/blue jewels happen to drop doing other activities. Also I have yet to see a single exemplary swift jewel from writs, but since it's not that useful as others I won't bother with it soon, and if it doesn't drop till the others are done I will simply buy it cheap off guilds.

commdt

Funny thing, got gold temper from lvl1 writ recently. It was the only one either

Elsterchen

You know what is really making me sad? Everyone of us agreed to treat virtual currency equally, regardless wether it was purchased with real money or obtained by ingame activity. (if you fail to remember read TOS, 2. part, paragraph E (virtual currency).

Voucher are virtual currency by Zenimax own definition, just like crowns.

Just for the fun of it imagine what would happen if some crown purchases would remove double the amount of crowns bought before adding the purchased crowns.

...

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_RichLambert : Please live up to your own standarts. (Ok, forget that. The time for that has passed some weeks ago) ... At least try to life up to the same standarts you ask of your customers. We all agreed to treat writ-vouchers just like crowns, in case they get lost, stolen or we try to sell them. All we ask from you is to have a look at what we consider "obviously broken" and communicate your thoughts about it.

KingMagaw

You will eat what your given is the motto here.

Vouchers are near worthless because of the lack of investment to make new envelopes for the news styles already in game, or be in anyway current with this with the addition of a few items added which are easily covered in voucher price.

Jewellery ones are just more worthless to do is all. Given time, that will change as the materials are easily accessible by botters so price will drop and has, very quickly

The only issue i see, is ZOS introducing grains into the equation (An inexcusable move to add more grind nobody i seen asked for and protested against on PTS). Should of copied the existing example set of how the materials are laid out with cloth, metal, wood etc.


INFO: I run 15 characters. Do double writs every 2 days, almost without fail for years. I have a decent gauge on what i am getting/ Got 3 grains from writs since launch. Many from deconning i believe it is closely mimicking the 200/1 decon rate maxed passives on average. I used around 1500 transmute crystals on new jewellery deconed and sold the trait gems for massive gold to the sheep but i did notice it was riskier as some deconn'ed to grains, which still sold for more than potent nirns at the time, but still.

Poor move to change provisioning legendary writs after such a long time and not backdate them which reinforces to me, nothing is going to get done about this topic, especially if your unable to get a civil hello

griffkhalifa

The lack of self-awareness for ZOS to comment on this post only for it to say "Please keep things civil" is astounding. I got excited seeing the "Z" next to the thread only to realize they didn't actually address the problem.

Aca2017

My JC isn't maxed yet (haven't had much time to spend farming for deconstruction, so the levelling process has been slow), so I have done basically no platinum refinement, saving it for when the toon(s) reach JC tier 10... but it is difficult to understand why jewelcrafting plating drop rates (or the associated grains-multiple needed to yield the same number of platings) does not match the other craft-lines' temper drop rates.

In blacksmithing/clothing/woodworking, I get a legendary-grade temper on average roughly every 20 stacks of tier 10 materials during refinement (on an L50/160+ character with 10 points in the relevant crafting tier skill and 3 points in the relevant extraction passive). An comparable volume of legendary-grade platings (or 10x that in grains) should drop when refining platinum dust at an equivalent level of development (i.e. L50/160+, JC tier 5, 3 points in extraction, etc). Same for writs, either in platings or the net equivalent in grains.

As well, IMO, all trait materials should drop from refinement (at rates consistent with whatever you want people to have access to and use). You can provide additional/accelerated access to specific trait materials via the content the traits are intended to facilitate, but there should be a base drop rate (however low) for all traits, from refinement. (In contrast, in blacksmithing/clothing/woodworking, you don't have to grind in PvP simply to have basic access to impenetrable trait materials, nor do you have to grind in vet dungeons or in trials for sharpened/precise trait materials, etc, and even nirnhoned only needs a comprehensible amount of soloable PvE effort, so why is JC different?)

Finally, where is the hireling passive? Which should, of course, deliver dust/ounces and platings for the relevant skill tier, plus the full spectrum of trait materials, in the mix.

As others have observed: why offer a new crafting skill only to make it an "orphan stepchild" relative to the other crafting skills? Why go to the trouble, much less put the community to the trouble, if you don't intend to offer a comparable degree of access/utility? It's weird.

Khipu

I've read everything said here and I agree with many of you. I'm doing the same things and ending up with the same fruitless outcome. 11 crafters here.
I understand why the grain thing had to happen.
I completely do not understand why we, the crafters who have mastered the craft, aren't getting a significantly higher number of grains in our little boxes so we can actually start crafting things this delightful new craft has to offer- even if just for ourselves. I mean, just forget about the legendary. I can't even make more than one epic piece yet. Most sadly, I can't even imagine when I can afford to craft a single piece of furniture on a JC station.
I do not understand how a MW went through that offers half or less of the reward, in the same currency, than it takes to purchase the trait.

I haven't seen a swifty yet, either, and that's umm kinda scary.


As I read, something hit me. I'm also building up a good pile of JC MWs which I assume is because there's no motif required for the craft just like enchanting and alchemy. So we're getting more of these things that would for a long time a'coming be impossible or ridiculous to complete. Maybe vouchers shouldn't be the reward for Jewelry Master Crafting Writs?
I don't know, but If you asked me I'd say I'd like to see some reward at this point that might even help me acquire the gold to purchase writs from another craft so I can actually craft and make myself some vouchers. I take breaks from the game (not since Summerset though :P) and still have many things I can purchase with them. I'd think even people newer to the game would like to have a chance at purchasing things with them too.

Esha76

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

I've read everything said here and I agree with many of you. I'm doing the same things and ending up with the same fruitless outcome. 11 crafters here.
I understand why the grain thing had to happen.
I completely do not understand why we, the crafters who have mastered the craft, aren't getting a significantly higher number of grains in our little boxes so we can actually start crafting things this delightful new craft has to offer- even if just for ourselves. I mean, just forget about the legendary. I can't even make more than one epic piece yet. Most sadly, I can't even imagine when I can afford to craft a single piece of furniture on a JC station.
I do not understand how a MW went through that offers half or less of the reward, in the same currency, than it takes to purchase the trait.

I haven't seen a swifty yet, either, and that's umm kinda scary.


As I read, something hit me. I'm also building up a good pile of JC MWs which I assume is because there's no motif required for the craft just like enchanting and alchemy. So we're getting more of these things that would for a long time a'coming be impossible or ridiculous to complete. Maybe vouchers shouldn't be the reward for Jewelry Master Crafting Writs?
I don't know, but If you asked me I'd say I'd like to see some reward at this point that might even help me acquire the gold to purchase writs from another craft so I can actually craft and make myself some vouchers. I take breaks from the game (not since Summerset though :P) and still have many things I can purchase with them. I'd think even people newer to the game would like to have a chance at purchasing things with them too.

Well said.

I've been meaning to ask people in this thread... Has anyone gotten a "Swift" yet from their daily writ container? I certainly haven't. Just checked TTC - there's some up there, so someone's getting them.

And like you, since doing these everyday since early access, the best I could craft at this time is only one item up to purple.

I have 1 max crafter, and two others that are slowly progressing, that I do writs on everyday. I'm deliberately leaving the other two low level, as they seem to be getting more surveys at the lower level. It's not a scientific observation... just seems that way.

However I do the geyser dailies on all three characters, and break down the jewels from the geysers to get my grains.

Yet another slow, mundane, daily grind....

TheCyberDruid

Esha76 wrote: »

I've been meaning to ask people in this thread... Has anyone gotten a "Swift" yet from their daily writ container? I certainly haven't. Just checked TTC - there's some up there, so someone's getting them.

I only run three master crafter and gotten one swift necklace so far. Doing max tier writs for JC is really not worth the hassle.

GarnetFire17

Amadis001 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

It occurred to me that they might do things like this to generate some artificial cred.

I mean, how else can you explain some of these situations? They knew well in advance on test how these things would play out. They listened to all the protests.... and ignored them, and pushed it out to live. What other logical explanation could there be?

I think it's hard for them to know exactly how the economy will develop in-game. And they would rather err on the side of "too hard/too scarce" than of "too easy/too common", because it's easier to adjust up than down without flipping everyone out. What's more, it extends to grind. They don't want to have accidentally given everyone a fast path to tons of gold jewelry.

It's not like they don't have something to compare it to. They know it takes 10 times as many improvement mats that other crafting disciplines that provide hirelings. So why are the master writs not worth at least 10 times more? I can't remember what grade I learned proportions in but I think it was 4th.

GarnetFire17

Esha76 wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

I've read everything said here and I agree with many of you. I'm doing the same things and ending up with the same fruitless outcome. 11 crafters here.
I understand why the grain thing had to happen.
I completely do not understand why we, the crafters who have mastered the craft, aren't getting a significantly higher number of grains in our little boxes so we can actually start crafting things this delightful new craft has to offer- even if just for ourselves. I mean, just forget about the legendary. I can't even make more than one epic piece yet. Most sadly, I can't even imagine when I can afford to craft a single piece of furniture on a JC station.
I do not understand how a MW went through that offers half or less of the reward, in the same currency, than it takes to purchase the trait.

I haven't seen a swifty yet, either, and that's umm kinda scary.


As I read, something hit me. I'm also building up a good pile of JC MWs which I assume is because there's no motif required for the craft just like enchanting and alchemy. So we're getting more of these things that would for a long time a'coming be impossible or ridiculous to complete. Maybe vouchers shouldn't be the reward for Jewelry Master Crafting Writs?
I don't know, but If you asked me I'd say I'd like to see some reward at this point that might even help me acquire the gold to purchase writs from another craft so I can actually craft and make myself some vouchers. I take breaks from the game (not since Summerset though :P) and still have many things I can purchase with them. I'd think even people newer to the game would like to have a chance at purchasing things with them too.

Well said.

I've been meaning to ask people in this thread... Has anyone gotten a "Swift" yet from their daily writ container? I certainly haven't. Just checked TTC - there's some up there, so someone's getting them.

And like you, since doing these everyday since early access, the best I could craft at this time is only one item up to purple.

I have 1 max crafter, and two others that are slowly progressing, that I do writs on everyday. I'm deliberately leaving the other two low level, as they seem to be getting more surveys at the lower level. It's not a scientific observation... just seems that way.

However I do the geyser dailies on all three characters, and break down the jewels from the geysers to get my grains.

Yet another slow, mundane, daily grind....

I finally got one 2 days ago on my second Master Jewlery Crafter I just got to 50 last week. So it took me about 1 month to get one doing the writs every day.

Jaraal

Several characters here doing daily writs, and not a single piece of Swift. And I'm curious why they even have Ornate as a trait on these rings and necklaces? I decon 100% of all reward jewelry, given to my lower level crafters if the XP gain is below the Masters'. I even save all the zero value trash rings from urns and jewelry boxes and have my newer crafters decon it.

Linaleah

Jaraal wrote: »

Several characters here doing daily writs, and not a single piece of Swift. And I'm curious why they even have Ornate as a trait on these rings and necklaces? I decon 100% of all reward jewelry, given to my lower level crafters if the XP gain is below the Masters'. I even save all the zero value trash rings from urns and jewelry boxes and have my newer crafters decon it.

random observation, but you know how you get extra mats from intricate gear? well.. you get little to none it seems from intricate jewelry.. it seems like ornate functions as intricate in this case, as I get fairly decent amount of bars from it rather then intricate. it also seems to give my low level characters more inspiration vs intricate jewelry of the same level