[Class Rep] DPS Feedback Thread

Destruent

Faulgor wrote: »

SirSocke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Huh? Nobody's taking anything away from you just because there are other viable alternatives to Endless Hail.

Buff to carve/blade cloak --> overall dps increases --> nerf tp overall dps --> same as now (but carve/blade cloaks is a more important part of DPS) --> stam looses more DPS when going ranged

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Faulgor wrote: »

SirSocke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Huh? Nobody's taking anything away from you just because there are other viable alternatives to Endless Hail.

Viable alternatives to hail you say? Like what?

witchdoctor

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

SirSocke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Huh? Nobody's taking anything away from you just because there are other viable alternatives to Endless Hail.

Viable alternatives to hail you say? Like what?

I think he was making a future subjunctive statement, '... because [there would be] other viable alternatives ...'

Faulgor

Destruent wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

SirSocke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Huh? Nobody's taking anything away from you just because there are other viable alternatives to Endless Hail.

Buff to carve/blade cloak --> overall dps increases --> nerf tp overall dps --> same as now (but carve/blade cloaks is a more important part of DPS) --> stam looses more DPS when going ranged

That's a lot of assumptions, but if you have other ideas how to make stamina setups besides DW/Bow viable, I'm all ears. I'm not married to any particular solution.

Runefang

1. Stop the one shot mechanics
2. Design all content to be done by stam and mag builds. Forcing variety is fine, excluding stam is bad.

ecru

I made a thread about melee dps's general viability compared to ranged awhile ago in the PTS forums but it unfortunately didn't get much traction. Reposting the OP of that thread as I feel it's relevant here.

Original post:

ecru wrote: »

I wanted to offer my perspective here as someone who has wanted to play melee dps during progression in vet trials for the past six months or so, but who has been (mostly) unable to.

With the release of Asylum Sanctorum, we saw a trial that was exclusively ranged dps only for the hardest form of the trial. There was just no reasonable way for anyone to play melee and do nearly as well as they would with ranged dps. Since my main is a StamDK, progression was painful, and the eventual solution was myself (and others) rerolling a magblade or magsorc.

After about 8 hours of experience in Vet Cloudrest, I'm seeing the same pattern emerge. Although ranged isn't required to clear this trial, ranged has a clear advantage and would be preferred in all situations for every single boss. The vast majority of the mechanics aside from a few (stack mechanic on one of the bosses) largely prefers ranged, and even this mechanic can be solved by a ranged stack, which could even be preferable due to sets like Master Architect.

Just a few other mechanics off of the top of my head:

• Bosses teleporting from one side of the arena to another consistently throughout the fight. This happens on every encounter.
• Crystals that need to be destroyed spread out to the very edges of the arenas. This also happens during every encounter. This mechanic is time sensitive strongly prefers ranged dps due to being forced out of melee range on the final boss during a certain mechanic. As melee, you're limited to light attacking with your bow during this time.
• Shades that spawn on a group member death. Doesn't sound so bad, right? Wrong. They teleport around 25-30m+ constantly, preferring ranged dps.
• Synergies that have to be activated in a certain period of time which can spawn all around the arena. Melee dps is unlikely to be anywhere near these and cannot maintain good dps even if they were to keep the boss in focus while traveling to them to activate. Ranged does not have this problem.

I'm sure there are more I'm forgetting and I'm sure these mechanics will be even more punishing while choosing to fight multiple bosses at once instead of attempting a regular vet clear.

These wouldn't seem too bad if melee had some kind of other advantage, like higher dps while in melee than ranged, but currently on PTS the highest parsing classes are ranged magicka dps. Where is the incentive to play melee at all? Melee is worse at mechanics, has worse or equal dps when in melee, and is punished by mechanics that seem like they were implemented to do one thing--to punish melee dps. There is no other good reason for a boss to decide to teleport from one side of the arena to the other and then run back other than to limit damage on that boss while it is moving.

This isn't only bad class design, it's bad raid design. Melee needs a niche that they can fill, like ranged has had since the release of vAS. If things remain as they are, I will likely be playing my magblade I created for vAS+2 even though I would prefer to play my StamDK.

It's worth mentioning that a month after making the above post I've switched to a Magicka Nightblade for Summerset as my main due to the above issues. I would have preferred to play my stamdk but the ease at which I'm parsing 45k self buffed with no sustain issues makes it the obvious choice compared to my dk. Going back to my stamdk right now would mean less dps in vCR, less survivability, less mobility, less utility, hell, I'm even using Soul Siphon to heal my raid during execute, which is something I could never do on my stamdk.

There needs to be real incentive to play melee, and right now there just isn't any at all.

NupidStoob

Elemental Damage: Burning should stay the way it is, Chilled should apply minor vulnerability OR reduce physical resistances and Concussion should interact with crit in some way like 10% more crit damage against concussed targets. Probably would require a rework of the AS staff, that thing has been too powerful anyways and is way too difficult to get.

Staves: Rework the ancient knowledge passive and make ice staves about damage again. Staves could simply buff the damage of the element they are being used with rather than have completely different effects for each staff type as that only ensures that only one type of staff is ever really being used. If you really want magicka tanking add a form of 1H magicka weapon skillline (hands, wands, staves as current staves aren't even wielded with two hands) that can be paired with a shield/totem/talisman.

Nevasca

Ice/Cold damage needs to be looked at. At the moment, it does not function as a good source of DPS when compared to Shock or Fire. And no, it is not a good source of Minor Maim for a tank, which was the goal when they made the change to Ice Staves. Tanks already have Talons, Thurvokun and Heroic Slash as a source of Minor Maim. Chilled should apply another debuff, or make it similar to burning where you have better DPS. Then you have another problem, you don't have a "Engulfing Flames" for ice, or a 20% increased damage when enemis are chilled (Blockade of Fire). Ice Staves ATM are just a detriment for your DPS and a noob trap.

Stamina is too stationary in PvE: They suffer a lot when a fight requires mobility, due to the fact that a lot of their damage come from Endless Hail. If we compare both Endless and Elemental Blockade, we will see that Endless costs more and covers a smaller area overall (5m radius, really??). To be clear on the issue: Stamina DPS depends too much on Endless Hail and that's a problem. They need to transfer a bit of the power from Hail to other sources. Light Attacks, for example, could be a alternative. It would make sense in terms of balance to have Melee LA/HA deal more damage than Ranged ones. It's the classic high risk/high reward design that stamina is (or supposed to be).

Khivas_Carrick

1) Can 2H get some proper love for PvE DPS?

2) Seriously, can we make 2H on par with DWing for Stamina toons lol

RaptorRodeoGod

1) Duel Wield is the only competitive main-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. There shouldn't be a damage difference between the different Stam weapon skill lines, the difference should be the play-style. For the most part, StamDPS has the same rotation, bar a few class skills. If I want to focus less on DOTs with Duel Wield, and more on smacking the boss with my Two Handed sword, I should be able to do so with little damage difference if I setup my build properly.

2) Bow is the only competitive off-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. Going through the same back-bar rotation on every class is kind of dull. There should be sufficient reason to slot any Stam weapon as a backbar weapon without damage loss. This goes back to the play-style point made in #1.

Effectively, there's only one weapon setup play-stlye that will yield competitive results, and that's Duel Wield/Bow. Having any combination of the Stam weapons (Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Bow, and Duel Wield) should yield competitive results. There's no reason there should be a damage difference if each setup is built for properly.

Bladerunner1

Due to all the magicka multipliers in the game magic DPS can stack their primary resource without taking much, if any, DPS hit. This boosts damage shields, provides more short-term high burst DPS, and allows them to rely less on crafted major sorcery potions to lift DPS. The destruction staff skills return the primary resource with every kill.

Stamina DPS relies more on weapon damage due to the multipliers available in the game. They may need to worry more about resource recovery since they tend to run with a smaller stamina pool. They might rely on vicious ophedian, a five piece set, to give resource return on each kill. Not using crafted weapon power potions and poisons will cause a large DPS loss.

pelle412

1. For stamina DPS, make more weapon types similarly viable in end game as the default DW/Bow. 2H/Bow should perform as well.
2. Give 1h/s an AoE damage.

megajra

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

1) Duel Wield is the only competitive main-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. There shouldn't be a damage difference between the different Stam weapon skill lines, the difference should be the play-style. For the most part, StamDPS has the same rotation, bar a few class skills. If I want to focus less on DOTs with Duel Wield, and more on smacking the boss with my Two Handed sword, I should be able to do so with little damage difference if I setup my build properly.

2) Bow is the only competitive off-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. Going through the same back-bar rotation on every class is kind of dull. There should be sufficient reason to slot any Stam weapon as a backbar weapon without damage loss. This goes back to the play-style point made in #1.

Effectively, there's only one weapon setup play-stlye that will yield competitive results, and that's Duel Wield/Bow. Having any combination of the Stam weapons (Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Bow, and Duel Wield) should yield competitive results. There's no reason there should be a damage difference if each setup is built for properly.

I couldn't agree more! I would love to play stamina character as a range setup!

aetherial_heavenn

NyassaV wrote: »

There are too many ways for bad players to be powerful in PvP

There aren't enough ways for bad players to be powerful in PvE

Perfectly put.

JobooAGS

pelle412 wrote: »

1. For stamina DPS, make more weapon types similarly viable in end game as the default DW/Bow. 2H/Bow should perform as well.
2. Give 1h/s an AoE damage.

Bow/bow too

BigBadVolk

If someone didnt said, but from a mag side could we get some new weps in the future which would be pure magicka damage weps like 1h/rune or rune/spelltome or wand smth like that which would give a similar passive to destro fire and lightning plus would buff the pure magicka based skills like strife, jabs and such like War Maiden just in a skill line in the future like in next years chapter or after that

kojou

1. Improve overall sustain, heavy attacks suck.
2. Make weaker ability altering weapons better.

Nolic1

Same as I feel about the tanking.

Khivas_Carrick

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

1) Duel Wield is the only competitive main-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. There shouldn't be a damage difference between the different Stam weapon skill lines, the difference should be the play-style. For the most part, StamDPS has the same rotation, bar a few class skills. If I want to focus less on DOTs with Duel Wield, and more on smacking the boss with my Two Handed sword, I should be able to do so with little damage difference if I setup my build properly.

2) Bow is the only competitive off-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. Going through the same back-bar rotation on every class is kind of dull. There should be sufficient reason to slot any Stam weapon as a backbar weapon without damage loss. This goes back to the play-style point made in #1.

Effectively, there's only one weapon setup play-stlye that will yield competitive results, and that's Duel Wield/Bow. Having any combination of the Stam weapons (Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Bow, and Duel Wield) should yield competitive results. There's no reason there should be a damage difference if each setup is built for properly.

Oh look a necro.

Oh look, 2H needs love.

Maryal

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Ice/Cold damage needs to be looked at. At the moment, it does not function as a good source of DPS when compared to Shock or Fire. And no, it is not a good source of Minor Maim for a tank, which was the goal when they made the change to Ice Staves. Tanks already have Talons, Thurvokun and Heroic Slash as a source of Minor Maim. Chilled should apply another debuff, or make it similar to burning where you have better DPS. Then you have another problem, you don't have a "Engulfing Flames" for ice, or a 20% increased damage when enemis are chilled (Blockade of Fire). Ice Staves ATM are just a detriment for your DPS and a noob trap.

Stamina is too stationary in PvE: They suffer a lot when a fight requires mobility, due to the fact that a lot of their damage come from Endless Hail. If we compare both Endless and Elemental Blockade, we will see that Endless costs more and covers a smaller area overall (5m radius, really??). To be clear on the issue: Stamina DPS depends too much on Endless Hail and that's a problem. They need to transfer a bit of the power from Hail to other sources. Light Attacks, for example, could be a alternative. It would make sense in terms of balance to have Melee LA/HA deal more damage than Ranged ones. It's the classic high risk/high reward design that stamina is (or supposed to be).

Umm, it may not be endless hail that's the problem ... the real problem is the decision to use it in a highly mobile pve fight. Endless Hail is an excellent skill in the right situation ... but it's not excellent in every situation. The good news is that once someone has figured this out, they usually stop using Endless Hail in mobile fights ... in other words, they figured out that Endless Hail is not a 'one-size-fits-all' skill. It takes some people longer than others to figure this out ... but that's not a an 'Endless Hail' problem.

Sunday_Samurai

Hybrids. Please ZoS, make them a thing. They are kiiiinda almost alright in PvP, but in PvE they are no good. There are many cool morphs that are magicka only so you won't really get to use as a Stamina character, and as a Magicka Character, almost all weapon lines are locked away from you, leaving the game with not that much variety.

Pelinal's is a good set. So is Infused jewelry traits. But we still need a little more. We need a way to increase our stat pools further, or one more big hybrid set to run. Not to mention that there aren't many hybrid damage monster sets, 1pc Molag Kena and I guess Slimecraw with Minor Berserk, but that's about it.

Not sure how to tackle making them strong in PvE, but I'll leave it to you.

RaptorRodeoGod

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

1) Duel Wield is the only competitive main-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. There shouldn't be a damage difference between the different Stam weapon skill lines, the difference should be the play-style. For the most part, StamDPS has the same rotation, bar a few class skills. If I want to focus less on DOTs with Duel Wield, and more on smacking the boss with my Two Handed sword, I should be able to do so with little damage difference if I setup my build properly.

2) Bow is the only competitive off-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. Going through the same back-bar rotation on every class is kind of dull. There should be sufficient reason to slot any Stam weapon as a backbar weapon without damage loss. This goes back to the play-style point made in #1.

Effectively, there's only one weapon setup play-stlye that will yield competitive results, and that's Duel Wield/Bow. Having any combination of the Stam weapons (Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Bow, and Duel Wield) should yield competitive results. There's no reason there should be a damage difference if each setup is built for properly.

Oh look a necro.

Oh look, 2H needs love.

I'm not saying 2H needs love.

I'm saying for stam dps 1H&S/Bow, 1H&S/2H, 1H&S/DW, 1H&S/1H&S Bow/Bow, Bow/2H, 2H/2H, and DW/DW needs love.

DW/Bow has basically been the only stam meta ever, it's getting old for me. I'd like for a change of pace without massively gimping myself.

Sunday_Samurai

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

1) Duel Wield is the only competitive main-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. There shouldn't be a damage difference between the different Stam weapon skill lines, the difference should be the play-style. For the most part, StamDPS has the same rotation, bar a few class skills. If I want to focus less on DOTs with Duel Wield, and more on smacking the boss with my Two Handed sword, I should be able to do so with little damage difference if I setup my build properly.

2) Bow is the only competitive off-bar setup for PvE StamDPS. Going through the same back-bar rotation on every class is kind of dull. There should be sufficient reason to slot any Stam weapon as a backbar weapon without damage loss. This goes back to the play-style point made in #1.

Effectively, there's only one weapon setup play-stlye that will yield competitive results, and that's Duel Wield/Bow. Having any combination of the Stam weapons (Two Handed, One Hand and Shield, Bow, and Duel Wield) should yield competitive results. There's no reason there should be a damage difference if each setup is built for properly.

Oh look a necro.

Oh look, 2H needs love.

I'm not saying 2H needs love.

I'm saying for stam dps 1H&S/Bow, 1H&S/2H, 1H&S/DW, 1H&S/1H&S Bow/Bow, Bow/2H, 2H/2H, and DW/DW needs love.

DW/Bow has basically been the only stam meta ever, it's getting old for me. I'd like for a change of pace without massively gimping myself.

All builds could use some more variety in playstyles but it's true that Stamina needs it the most. How would you go about this? Personally, I think it's time for a third or even fourth morph, to ensure a skill always has a Stamina morph, but at the same time, I'd like Magicka to have more weapon lines to use other than Destruction Staff. There should be a passive somewhere in those trees to make the damage scale off Magicka, then you can have yourself a fun spellsword.

DschiPeunt

My 1st pain point: NB > all
My 2nd pain point: NB > all

barbarian340

Bow/bow should be viable in all content

Agalloch

We need back our sustain. The changes to sustain post Morrowind killed the pleasure to do vet trials .

Also ..is perfectly ok for a veteran with 750+ CP to do do more dps than a 300cp guy.

JobooAGS

barbarian340 wrote: »

Bow/bow should be viable in all content

Competive, not just viable

John_Falstaff

Maryal wrote: »

Umm, it may not be endless hail that's the problem ... the real problem is the decision to use it in a highly mobile pve fight. Endless Hail is an excellent skill in the right situation ... but it's not excellent in every situation. The good news is that once someone has figured this out, they usually stop using Endless Hail in mobile fights ... in other words, they figured out that Endless Hail is not a 'one-size-fits-all' skill. It takes some people longer than others to figure this out ... but that's not a an 'Endless Hail' problem.

Problem is, Endless Hail is a lion's share of stamina DPS damage, and there are no other sources to match it. Stamina's high DPS (in parses, anyway) rely on Hail amplified by vMA bow. So either way, mobile fights will be a major DPS loss for stamina, however you turn it. It's a problem of skill balancing, really. Stamina relies on a Holy Grail item for high damage, and when mobile fights render that Holy Grail ineffective, it suddenly turns out that the emperor has no clothes.

psxfloh

imho DPSing requires too much training to be really good at, making the gap between top and bottom dps too wide.

Of course a perfect rotation should be better than doing nothing but light attacks or spamming 1-2 abilities, but a semi-perfect rotation, or missing a light attack here and there should not be that far from the top like it currently is.

For example, I cast my DoTs, weave light attacks, cast 1-3 spammables, and repeat... and I am still only doing half the dps of what others are capable of with the same class/skill/gear combination. I'd expect or would be happy with 75-85% of what they do.. but only 50%?! Come on, it's still a game, not some kind of professional eSport.

In oder to bring top and bottom closer together you might consider:
- drastically lower light attack dmg so it's only a small loss when you miss a weave.
- drastically increase buff and DoT duration and make less ground based DoTs, so you don't have to reapply them as often
- better align DoT and buff durations in favor of more static (vs dynamic) rotations
- improve the visualization of buff and debuff durations (on all platforms)

barbarian340

we really should be able to use any weapon for magicka or stamina and not be gimped...for magicka builds, staves are the ONLY option...but i want to be able to use a 2h and bow with my sorc and not be trash