[Class Rep] DPS Feedback Thread

Faulgor

Stamina builds are too homogenous. Everyone is running Bow back and DW front bar, which effectively turns everyone into a rogue archetype. There should be more incentives for other weapon combinations, which means a) 2H and bow need to be viable front bar choices, and b) 2H and DW should be viable back-bar choices, which can probably only be achieved by adressing the dominance of Endless Hail with VMA bows. I like my bows, but it is kind of ridiculous that every stamina build depends on this one weapon in the game.

Beardimus

Personally don't like the end game DPS focus on trials play. I.e. Best DPS is stood in Red robotically weaving / Ani canceling a routine out over and over. It's really dull.

Keep end game as much about movement and timing, burst etc. Like a harder vMA for example.

Trials approach totally out me off end game PvE

Vapirko

Move rally/forward momentum to fighters guild line.

Zer0oo

• sustain is now the most important factor if a class/build/race can do high dps (classes/races with bad sustain passives are screwed; there is a reason why almost everyone is now a redguard in pve or argonian in pvp)
• ground based aoe skills(endless hail, liquid lightning...) are extrem clunky to use especial in laggy environment e.g. trial, pvp
• there are no longer support sets for dds to boost the group dps like nightmother or sunder flame

SodanTok

1. Racial imbalance makes 1-3 races significantly better and majority of others visibly underperforming. From stamina point of view most noticeable when comparing redguard to others. Having good sustain alone means having good damage, but this race for some reason also gets the currently strongest passive for damage (10% max stam).
2. Ever present 'issue' (guess not for most) is that ranged stam DPS underperforms greatly in damage to any other ranged or melee spec, yet is also underperforms in survivability to any magicka spec and offers absolutely no utility. Even if ranged stam dps was on ranged mag dps level, it would still be undesired spec, yet its nowhere near close to that.

Sparr0w

Need to have combat practices or tutorials, like modes you can set target dummy's into and practice certain aspects of the game.

This would really help newer players looking to get into more difficult content & especially help console players that don't have access to addons.

e.g. weave mode where you have to LA>Skill 10 times & it lets you know how many you hit. DoT practice where you have to have 75%+ uptime. Mechanics where the TD will spew out ground DoTs or other mechanics and you have to be hit 15% or less. (Obviously have the ability to set goals & combine modes).

JobooAGS

Faulgor wrote: »

Stamina builds are too homogenous. Everyone is running Bow back and DW front bar, which effectively turns everyone into a rogue archetype. There should be more incentives for other weapon combinations, which means a) 2H and bow need to be viable front bar choices, and b) 2H and DW should be viable back-bar choices, which can probably only be achieved by adressing the dominance of Endless Hail with VMA bows. I like my bows, but it is kind of ridiculous that every stamina build depends on this one weapon in the game.

Id be fine with this... if bow/bow was also a viable choice

Merlin13KAGL

• There should be more potion options for DPS or not require chain-chugging potions to hit max. They should provide more than the single purpose utility they currently provide.
• Resource return shouldn't be an all or nothing proposition. The longer you hold an attack, the more resources it should give, with LA yielding none, Full heavy yielding Max, and mediums somewhere in between. If you have to cut a HA short, you end up missing both the resource benefit and the damage vs going with LA's.

umagon

The problem I have with the dps role is that both damage output and healing output scale off of magicka, stamina, weapon/spell damage. It creates a situation where players do not have to trade defense for offense when creating dps orientated builds. If the game is going to be based off the trinity (healing output, damage output, survivability); then at any given point no build should reside on the far end of more than one of those spectrums.

This has been a problem for years and it time for it be addressed, it is one of the reasons why extreme debuffs like defile is required in pvp and why it is over punishing. Because it has to be extreme to have any impact on a trinity system that is not balanced. Rather than fixing the problem there has just been band-aid type of changes instead of the major surgery that is needed.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

XiDiabolismiX wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

It has to be said, and I am absolutely not trolling.

You should probably ignore almost all PVE related DPS “issues”. The main issue with PVE DPS issues is the bar is constantly moving. Maybe a year ago you could do some dungeon in 60 minutes and through practice you got it down to 45. Then a nerf comes and now it’s an hour and 15. Sure, that is annoying but the content is still completable. But ... then comes the forum raging and some of those nerfs are altered in the following patch to allow you to feel awesome again ... great! But it’s not great because now people in Cyrodiil can blink and make you explode from 41 yards away.

Long story short, I fully support addressing DPS issues, but use PvP as your template not PvE. If you can achieve near-balance in Cyrodiil the PVE community will figure out how to make it work. They always do.

That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever read. Balance pve around pvp.....? Ever try bringing a pvp character into end game content?

If anything, they need to keep the little balancing act between the two separate. They can change whatever they want into battle spirit since it’s already there. Just add whatever tweak and value pvp needs into that. Several mmo’s have proven that it’s possible. The dynamic between different gear and skill loadouts between these two activities are so vastly different that when you think you fix one thing, it turns into a turd in the other thing.

I understand some of the bigger changes concerning things like monster set crits and whatnot have turned out fine, but it seems like it’s a never ending battle of trying to balance the two play styles. The scales tip too far in one direction and a couple months down the road, when everyone is getting use to something, they tip too far in the opposite direction.

Yes I have and you can complete anything in this game in PVP equipment with the right 4 or 12 people. It will just take longer. It’s not impossible, and that’s my point. Meanwhile it’s very easy to build around PVE and turn PVP into a literal impossibility for many, many players.

Edit to add: I do agree that if they simple change battle spirit that would probably be the best case scenerio. I just don’t think we will EVER see them not try to balance both together so that’s why I suggested PVP as the baseline as opposed to PVE. Breaking one causes activities to take longer, breaking the other causes a ton of players to die instantly. That’s all. Like I said, I’m definitely not trolling, I just don’t think that PVE is the right place to consider balance since it’s always a race to the fastest time.

clocksstoppe

Bring back sustain im sick of having to resort to crutch sustain class nightblade to play dps without pain

Faulgor

JobooAGS wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Stamina builds are too homogenous. Everyone is running Bow back and DW front bar, which effectively turns everyone into a rogue archetype. There should be more incentives for other weapon combinations, which means a) 2H and bow need to be viable front bar choices, and b) 2H and DW should be viable back-bar choices, which can probably only be achieved by adressing the dominance of Endless Hail with VMA bows. I like my bows, but it is kind of ridiculous that every stamina build depends on this one weapon in the game.

Id be fine with this... if bow/bow was also a viable choice

Obviously, that's why I said bow needs to be a viable front bar weapon!

WrathOfInnos

MaxwellC wrote: »

I just wanna say I hate the focus of light attacks being where you deal the most damage rather than Heavy attacks. You'd think a Heavy attack something that has a wind up would do more damage up front while light attacks could be chained to do more damage later on.
The nerfs to Heavy attack confuse me.

I agree with you on concept. Light attacks would make more sense to restore resources, since it requires less effort from the character, and heavy attacks should deal more damage. This would allow the choice between 2 rotations/playstyles:
1. Fast-paced skill rotations with light attack weaves to sustain (similar to nightblade siphoning attacks)
2. Slower, easier heavy attack rotations, ideal for beginners, resulting in slightly lower overall DPS (maybe around 75-80% of option 1) but no concerns about weaving or difficult timing of skills.

That being said, such a change would be a pretty big overhaul of the whole combat system, and I doubt it will be changed. It would be more intuitive IMO, and help to raise the DPS floor.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

I just wanna say I hate the focus of light attacks being where you deal the most damage rather than Heavy attacks. You'd think a Heavy attack something that has a wind up would do more damage up front while light attacks could be chained to do more damage later on.
The nerfs to Heavy attack confuse me.

I agree with you on concept. Light attacks would make more sense to restore resources, since it requires less effort from the character, and heavy attacks should deal more damage. This would allow the choice between 2 rotations/playstyles:
1. Fast-paced skill rotations with light attack weaves to sustain (similar to nightblade siphoning attacks)
2. Slower, easier heavy attack rotations, ideal for beginners, resulting in slightly lower overall DPS (maybe around 75-80% of option 1) but no concerns about weaving or difficult timing of skills.

That being said, such a change would be a pretty big overhaul of the whole combat system, and I doubt it will be changed. It would be more intuitive IMO, and help to raise the DPS floor.

Personally I much enjoy it when people make posts about how they can’t sustain anything but then say how they don’t heavy attack.

I wonder how many people realize that like 80 to 90% of your attacks should be basic light or heavy attacks and not just spamming skills. If you do that you’ll almost never run out of resources even with crap for regen. People who refuse to do this, or those that complain about it, remind me of a boxer trying to win a fight without a jab.

BKTHNDR

2H builds can't compete with any other DPS builds.

mr_wazzabi

Caff32 wrote: »

1. Bring back some sustain. The nerfs to sustain went way too far. Somewhere between where they were and where they are would make the game far more fun.
2. Make Khajiit Great Again

Make blue food great again.

Since Morrowind, I've been forced to use witchmothers brew and dubious camoran throne to play.

mr_wazzabi

Stam needs better survivability in trials. Give us either a stam scaling bone shield or make medium armor reduce aoe damage like blade cloak. Or make aoe attacks dodgeable in medium amor

themaddaedra

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

2. I agree with end game content being too centralized around DPS. Especially for tanking being not tanking at all. I know we all love having nice Alkosh and Powerful Assault uptimes as DDs, but honestly that's just wrong. Medium armor tanking shouldn't be a thing for PvE. That's first of all quite immersion-breaking. Let tanks deal with the incoming damage and their survival against them, not with more and more power creep day by day. Cloudrest again feels like a good direction, i love seeing tanks actually focusing on survival. I only wish to see real full trials in this concept, especially when they are expansion trials ^^.

kichwas

I think it's critically important to ensure all DPS weapon skill line options are equally good choices in PvE, but still play differently. From what I have been reading lately, this is not currently the case.


So the obvious exceptions being resto staff, 1H/shield, and frost staff - which are healer and tanking options.

Otherwise players should feel that any skill line they pursue has a valid place to fill in solo, dungeon, and trial content.

If this requires making some weapons lines behave one way in PvE and another in PvP - so be it.

I'd wager making each skill line equally valuable albeit very different in PvP would also be a good thing.

The problem with specific weapons being 'clearly the best choice' is that all characters start to feel like clones of each other. If every DPS is running DW/Bow... there's no reason to play more than one DPS character - regardless of the classes... and every DPS in a group starts to seem like a copy of every other... If the 'best' changes to 2H/staff... or some other random combo... we still have the same problem, just in a different flavor.

JobooAGS

themaddaedra wrote: »

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

2. I agree with end game content being too centralized around DPS. Especially for tanking being not tanking at all. I know we all love having nice Alkosh and Powerful Assault uptimes as DDs, but honestly that's just wrong. Medium armor tanking shouldn't be a thing for PvE. That's first of all quite immersion-breaking. Let tanks deal with the incoming damage and their survival against them, not with more and more power creep day by day. Cloudrest again feels like a good direction, i love seeing tanks actually focusing on survival. I only wish to see real full trials in this concept, especially when they are expansion trials ^^.

I would love to see bow/bow dds, and not only that, but for them to be wanted, even if it is one or 2

Rungar

change light attack to sweeping attack (very short range point blank aoe or cone) and put both light attack and heavy attack on the global timer and all dps problems are solved, as would be most pvp problems including lag and macroing.

this weaving thing is garbage, poor uptake, doesn't work for all the classes (i.e Templar), promotes the use of macro programs and generates worthless lag since the number of requests is so frequent.

give the sweeping attack some conditional advantage unique to the weapon type. This can also allow your enchantment to proc aoe.

throw in a new slot to smooth it over. The utility slot which is the same on both bars (like the potion) where you can put your rapids or other buffs, things you might want to double bar to make a little more room for an additional combat skill.

rename heavy attack to regenerating attack since that's really what it is and let it benefit slightly from the siphoner cp and the soul line somehow. Perhaps you cant get resources back until you spend a point or two in a new passive to make it logical.

really have nothing to lose since from what ive seen what you have is basically anti-player, and likely the worst part of the game. most players will see the benefit since they dont do what you want them to now anyway.

mr_wazzabi

Faulgor wrote: »

Stamina builds are too homogenous. Everyone is running Bow back and DW front bar, which effectively turns everyone into a rogue archetype. There should be more incentives for other weapon combinations, which means a) 2H and bow need to be viable front bar choices, and b) 2H and DW should be viable back-bar choices, which can probably only be achieved by adressing the dominance of Endless Hail with VMA bows. I like my bows, but it is kind of ridiculous that every stamina build depends on this one weapon in the game.

The problem here is that stamina only has 2 ground dots. If you nerf vma bow or volley itself, you kill every stamina dps unless zos redisigns the game and makes another ground dot.

mr_wazzabi

themaddaedra wrote: »

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

2. I agree with end game content being too centralized around DPS. Especially for tanking being not tanking at all. I know we all love having nice Alkosh and Powerful Assault uptimes as DDs, but honestly that's just wrong. Medium armor tanking shouldn't be a thing for PvE. That's first of all quite immersion-breaking. Let tanks deal with the incoming damage and their survival against them, not with more and more power creep day by day. Cloudrest again feels like a good direction, i love seeing tanks actually focusing on survival. I only wish to see real full trials in this concept, especially when they are expansion trials ^^.

Dps "broken" just because of one set? The one set that only drops from the hardest trial, meaning not that many will have it?

Thorstienn

1. Reduce LA scaling/base damage to a wet noodle!

themaddaedra

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

2. I agree with end game content being too centralized around DPS. Especially for tanking being not tanking at all. I know we all love having nice Alkosh and Powerful Assault uptimes as DDs, but honestly that's just wrong. Medium armor tanking shouldn't be a thing for PvE. That's first of all quite immersion-breaking. Let tanks deal with the incoming damage and their survival against them, not with more and more power creep day by day. Cloudrest again feels like a good direction, i love seeing tanks actually focusing on survival. I only wish to see real full trials in this concept, especially when they are expansion trials ^^.

Dps "broken" just because of one set? The one set that only drops from the hardest trial, meaning not that many will have it?

Normal mode is done in 10 minutes, anyone who wants it and owns Summerset already has it. And yes dps is broken just because of very one set ^^.

Schattenfluegel

themaddaedra wrote: »

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

Yeah, but the problem is: Relequen can only be weared with two people (perfect and imperfect)...it doesnt stack.

Faulgor

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Stamina builds are too homogenous. Everyone is running Bow back and DW front bar, which effectively turns everyone into a rogue archetype. There should be more incentives for other weapon combinations, which means a) 2H and bow need to be viable front bar choices, and b) 2H and DW should be viable back-bar choices, which can probably only be achieved by adressing the dominance of Endless Hail with VMA bows. I like my bows, but it is kind of ridiculous that every stamina build depends on this one weapon in the game.

The problem here is that stamina only has 2 ground dots. If you nerf vma bow or volley itself, you kill every stamina dps unless zos redisigns the game and makes another ground dot.

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Schattenfluegel wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

1. Stamina definitely doesn't need more damage or more survivability. Their damage is once again broken op thanks to Relequen. And Blade Cloak & Vigor does more than what's needed for survivability. What staminas need is trials that are more welcoming for them in terms of mechanics. Cloudrest was a good step imo. Most of damage being Oblivion damage makes magicka shields useless and healing more important, which puts magickas and staminas more in a line.

Yeah, but the problem is: Relequen can only be weared with two people (perfect and imperfect)...it doesnt stack.

Going to need to see the receipts on that.

And it is worn, not weared, actually that whole sentence does not make grammatical sense. It ought to read, "relequen can only be worn by two people."

SirSocke

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Faulgor

SirSocke wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Of course you can't nerf the current setup without some form of compensation. Although I don't think it necessarily has to be a ground DoT, AoE DoTs like Carve and Blade Cloak could work as well. If those were more on par to Endless Hail, we could already see more variety.

No, just no. This way stamina dds will loose their only way to do decend ranged dps. Endless hail and caltrops as ground aoes can be placed while playing the mechanics. Replace them with cleave aoes and stamina dds will loose even more dps on non static fights.

Huh? Nobody's taking anything away from you just because there are other viable alternatives to Endless Hail.