[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Mr_Wolfe

Aznox wrote: »

There's nothing to believe when videos and parse results are provided, it becomes facts

Not when those "facts" can't be reproduced.

@Defilted

I agree with you about not wanting anything taken away from werewolves in exchange for a taunt, but their toolkit is so limited I don't think there needs to be an exchange.

Adding a taunt to the howl is an interesting idea, but you'd need to have it locked behind a new passive or something, since howl is normally a werewolf's burst damage tool. You don't want your dps spamming a taunt during a boss' burn phase!

Instead of a passive, you could have the Berserker morph add the taunt. Berserker needs something now that Pack Leader has taken over as the top dps morph, and becoming the designated "Tank Morph" wouldn't be too off-brand.

Another option would be to add a new active skill, and let players choose which werewolf ability they want to swap out for a taunt. Or even easier: just let werewolves slot and use Inner Fire (and it's morphs) while transformed.

@Sharee

Perma-wolf isn't a problem. Werewolf takes 2-4 times longer to build up than ultimates like dawnbreaker or incap, and once you pop it you can't generate any more ultimate until you drop out of form--meaning you always go into the next fight with zero ultimate.

Meanwhile a good 2 bar+ultimate setup still performs better than werewolf, and can drop multiple ults during a fight and still have one built up and ready to go for the next fight.

That's not what I'd call balanced.

Having an ultimate you can use in werewolf form is an interesting idea, but honestly I'd settle for just bringing wolf form up to par and fixing the bugs and issues it currently has first.

Werewolf is in a weird place right now: An underdog that people somehow think is overpowered or nearly-overpowered. But like I've said before: If werewolf was really that good, there'd be a lot more of them--and a lot more demand for werewolves in dungeon and trial groups.

Collectivezen

Adding taunt to Infectious claws may work. Perma-wolf should be brought back and I would really love to see some werewolf skins that would allow us to change the way our werewolf looks.

Chrlynsch

In terms of taunting ZOS has said during an eso live that they don't think werewolves should be tanks.

Mr_Wolfe

And yet the change to Hircine's Blessing encouraged werewolves to stack more health instead of going for a glass cannon setup. How like ZOS to say they want one thing while introducing changes that do exactly the opposite.

Chrlynsch

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

And yet the change to Hircine's Blessing encouraged werewolves to stack more health instead of going for a glass cannon setup. How like ZOS to say they want one thing while introducing changes that do exactly the opposite.

Not really, as the change to Hircine's blessing made nearly all werewolf heals including glass cannon werewolf heals stronger. The only heals that were reduced by the change was that of the Pelinals wolf.

Mr_Wolfe

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

And yet the change to Hircine's Blessing encouraged werewolves to stack more health instead of going for a glass cannon setup. How like ZOS to say they want one thing while introducing changes that do exactly the opposite.

Not really, as the change to Hircine's blessing made nearly all werewolf heals including glass cannon werewolf heals stronger. The only heals that were reduced by the change was that of the Pelinals wolf.

Correction: The only heals that were reduced were the heals of anyone who knew how to actually build a WW character prior to Wolfhunter, whether that meant using pelinial's or one of the hybrid sets like shacklebreaker that gives max stamina/weapon damage and max magicka/spell damage.

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

And yet the change to Hircine's Blessing encouraged werewolves to stack more health instead of going for a glass cannon setup. How like ZOS to say they want one thing while introducing changes that do exactly the opposite.

Not really, as the change to Hircine's blessing made nearly all werewolf heals including glass cannon werewolf heals stronger. The only heals that were reduced by the change was that of the Pelinals wolf.

Correction: The only heals that were reduced were the heals of anyone who knew how to actually build a WW character prior to Wolfhunter, whether that meant using pelinial's or one of the hybrid sets like shacklebreaker that gives max stamina/weapon damage and max magicka/spell damage.

Correction : Had been using Heavy Shacklebreaker and full Tri-stat enchants for a year before Wolf-hunter, my heal was not reduced and i am using the 45% morph.

Qbiken

I hope yoy don´t mind me quoting parts of your comment (don´t want to take things out of context)

Instead of a passive, you could have the Berserker morph add the taunt. Berserker needs something now that Pack Leader has taken over as the top dps morph, and becoming the designated "Tank Morph" wouldn't be too off-brand.

That statement is true for PvE. When it comes to PvP the berserker morph is still more damage than the Pack-Leader.

Werewolf is in a weird place right now: An underdog that people somehow think is overpowered or nearly-overpowered. But like I've said before: If werewolf was really that good, there'd be a lot more of them--and a lot more demand for werewolves in dungeon and trial groups.

I´ve a few thoughts about why this is the case:

1. At least when it comes to PvP, werewolf has quite a long learning curve. If you compare to another class like magplar (aka healbot) or a snipe-spamming nightblade you can be quite efficient without too much time and effort. Same thing can´t be said for a werewolf.

Most people when starting to play werewolf in PvP starts out solo, which is where a werewolf is most vulnerable. It´s no rocket science that werewolf performs best in group with some support. Another mistake most people do is to stack all of their stats into max stamina and weapon damage. This leads to them dying all over the place (since they haven´t invested anything into defence) and the experience becomes less enjoyable, and people stop playing werewolf. You could summarize it by saying that werewolf in PvP is somewhat of a "High risk, high reward" kind of playstyle.

2. When it comes to PvE, the concept of having werewolf as a DPS is relatively new. Werewolf has been used for burst fights in the past (Think there´s an old video of Alcast nuking last boss in vDSA with 3 werewolfs), but not in the same way as now. Werewolf is an extremely niched PvE DPS role made purely for single target. And if you want to be competitive with it, you need to have the Bloodmoon set (only set that in my opinion isn´t replaceable). The set is locked behind a DLC and not everyone will buy it.

As it stands now, most stamina classes can pull similar or higher single target DPS as a werewolf, but they can also offer good AoE damage on top of this (thanks to endless hail and wall of elements). And most trials, dungeons and boss fights requires you to have some kind of AoE damage ability. So here is where werewolf will draw the short straw. In return, you don´t need to spend hours perfecting a rotation in order to get good DPS on a werewolf.

I also think there´s a small prestige within the end-game PvE community that achieving good DPS shouldn´t be easy (need to spend those 10k hours in front of a target dummy first ). And werewolf offers an easy way to achieve high DPS. And I know some people that don´t want to promote that kind of playstyle.

Qbiken

[img][/img]



51 million centurion dummy

Here´s an example of what you can achieve with a werewolf when fully buffed by a raid (not my parse)
While this scenario is somewhat unrealistic to happen in a trial it still shows what a werewolf is capable of.

Wuuffyy

Qbiken wrote: »

[img][/img]



51 million centurion dummy

Here´s an example of what you can achieve with a werewolf when fully buffed by a raid (not my parse)
While this scenario is somewhat unrealistic to happen in a trial it still shows what a werewolf is capable of.

That language wtf

tunepunk

Instead of generating ultimate why not just add a Lore friendly 1 piece set item.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Artifacts

In Daggerfall Hiricine's ring allows you to transform at will.

You could run 5,5,1,1 sets ...

I think it could be a good tradeoff. Losing one 2nd monster helm piece in exchange for the ability to transform at will. Maybe a small boost to some stat as well?

Chrlynsch

tunepunk wrote: »

Instead of generating ultimate why not just add a Lore friendly 1 piece set item.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Artifacts

In Daggerfall Hiricine's ring allows you to transform at will.

You could run 5,5,1,1 sets ...

I think it could be a good tradeoff. Losing one 2nd monster helm piece in exchange for the ability to transform at will. Maybe a small boost to some stat as well?

I've always thought Totem weapons would be a nice addition, seeing as Maelstrom, master, blackrose, and asylum weapons become irrelevant in wolf form.

These weapons could modify werewolf abilities and grant reduction to your werewolf transformation cost and timer (an additional 20%).

DocFrost72

I decided to test this assertion myself.

Aznox wrote: »

Berserker is arguably better than Pack leader outside dummy parsing.

PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps, you can't make it better given how easy it is. I find it's current niche/spot to be a good compromise.

Gear: 5 hunding's, 5 VO, and initially selene. Here's the stat sheet buffed (in ww form):



here's the results. Will explain the fluctuations.



29396 was the first result. This was ENTIRELY light attack spam, with claws of life weaved in every 12 hits or so.

30239 was using light attacks and weaved claws, and sprinkling in weaved howl of agony.

29096 was retrying light attack only to ensure stable results. 300 dps difference probably due to crits and enchants/selene firing.

where you see the small bump is when I switched to Kena. 31242, which considering this was entirely self buffed I am more than confident could go to vTrials with.

Werewolf DPS is indeed in a good spot, but I'm not so sure I'd agree that "PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps". I assume you'll tell me to ditch VO for bloodmoon, perhaps hundings for Rele. Problem; The setup that one would call "easy mode" relies on two dlc dungeons and a DLC trial, one dungeon you have to complete on veteran and one trial you benefit from completing on veteran. Easy mode...isn't the right way to say what you're trying to say. I don't think werewolf dps needs a buff, to clarify. I'm just saying maybe lower your values to "30k spamming light attacks is easy mode", because that is demonstrably true. You're not hitting 40 without rele, and to be frank that set NEEDS to be looked at...

Chrlynsch

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I decided to test this assertion myself.

Aznox wrote: »

Berserker is arguably better than Pack leader outside dummy parsing.

PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps, you can't make it better given how easy it is. I find it's current niche/spot to be a good compromise.

Gear: 5 hunding's, 5 VO, and initially selene. Here's the stat sheet buffed (in ww form):



here's the results. Will explain the fluctuations.



29396 was the first result. This was ENTIRELY light attack spam, with claws of life weaved in every 12 hits or so.

30239 was using light attacks and weaved claws, and sprinkling in weaved howl of agony.

29096 was retrying light attack only to ensure stable results. 300 dps difference probably due to crits and enchants/selene firing.

where you see the small bump is when I switched to Kena. 31242, which considering this was entirely self buffed I am more than confident could go to vTrials with.

Werewolf DPS is indeed in a good spot, but I'm not so sure I'd agree that "PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps". I assume you'll tell me to ditch VO for bloodmoon, perhaps hundings for Rele. Problem; The setup that one would call "easy mode" relies on two dlc dungeons and a DLC trial, one dungeon you have to complete on veteran and one trial you benefit from completing on veteran. Easy mode...isn't the right way to say what you're trying to say. I don't think werewolf dps needs a buff, to clarify. I'm just saying maybe lower your values to "30k spamming light attacks is easy mode", because that is demonstrably true. You're not hitting 40 without rele, and to be frank that set NEEDS to be looked at...

I got my relequen from an afternoon of farming nCR in pickup groups. Bloodmoon offers the biggest boost to your werewolf pve dps, if your looking to optimize your werewolf dps look no further than this set (it's slaptastic). Molag can get swapped for slimecraw. Relequen has been nerfed already, and don't think another nerf is necessary, even if they did many sets wouldn't be far behind it.

DocFrost72

Chrlynsch wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I decided to test this assertion myself.

Aznox wrote: »

Berserker is arguably better than Pack leader outside dummy parsing.

PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps, you can't make it better given how easy it is. I find it's current niche/spot to be a good compromise.

Gear: 5 hunding's, 5 VO, and initially selene. Here's the stat sheet buffed (in ww form):



here's the results. Will explain the fluctuations.



29396 was the first result. This was ENTIRELY light attack spam, with claws of life weaved in every 12 hits or so.

30239 was using light attacks and weaved claws, and sprinkling in weaved howl of agony.

29096 was retrying light attack only to ensure stable results. 300 dps difference probably due to crits and enchants/selene firing.

where you see the small bump is when I switched to Kena. 31242, which considering this was entirely self buffed I am more than confident could go to vTrials with.

Werewolf DPS is indeed in a good spot, but I'm not so sure I'd agree that "PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps". I assume you'll tell me to ditch VO for bloodmoon, perhaps hundings for Rele. Problem; The setup that one would call "easy mode" relies on two dlc dungeons and a DLC trial, one dungeon you have to complete on veteran and one trial you benefit from completing on veteran. Easy mode...isn't the right way to say what you're trying to say. I don't think werewolf dps needs a buff, to clarify. I'm just saying maybe lower your values to "30k spamming light attacks is easy mode", because that is demonstrably true. You're not hitting 40 without rele, and to be frank that set NEEDS to be looked at...

I got my relequen from an afternoon of farming nCR in pickup groups. Bloodmoon offers the biggest boost to your werewolf pve dps, if your looking to optimize your werewolf dps look no further than this set (it's slaptastic). Molag can get swapped for slimecraw. Relequen has been nerfed already, and don't think another nerf is necessary, even if they did many sets wouldn't be far behind it.

The point wasn't the ease of content. It's a triple pay wall. You're talking 3 seperate dlc's. The average player isn't going to buy that.

Slimecraw's bonus is given by healers using combat prayer. It actually would have been better to stick with selene at that point.

I won't derail the thread discussing rele, it's not a werewolf specific issue anyway.

Aznox

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I decided to test this assertion myself.

Aznox wrote: »

Berserker is arguably better than Pack leader outside dummy parsing.

PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps, you can't make it better given how easy it is. I find it's current niche/spot to be a good compromise.

Gear: 5 hunding's, 5 VO, and initially selene. Here's the stat sheet buffed (in ww form):



here's the results. Will explain the fluctuations.



29396 was the first result. This was ENTIRELY light attack spam, with claws of life weaved in every 12 hits or so.

30239 was using light attacks and weaved claws, and sprinkling in weaved howl of agony.

29096 was retrying light attack only to ensure stable results. 300 dps difference probably due to crits and enchants/selene firing.

where you see the small bump is when I switched to Kena. 31242, which considering this was entirely self buffed I am more than confident could go to vTrials with.

Werewolf DPS is indeed in a good spot, but I'm not so sure I'd agree that "PvE Werewolf is easy-mode 35-40k dps". I assume you'll tell me to ditch VO for bloodmoon, perhaps hundings for Rele. Problem; The setup that one would call "easy mode" relies on two dlc dungeons and a DLC trial, one dungeon you have to complete on veteran and one trial you benefit from completing on veteran. Easy mode...isn't the right way to say what you're trying to say. I don't think werewolf dps needs a buff, to clarify. I'm just saying maybe lower your values to "30k spamming light attacks is easy mode", because that is demonstrably true. You're not hitting 40 without rele, and to be frank that set NEEDS to be looked at...

Congratulations, you've reached a higher sustained DPS than 90% of the playerbase, using a light attack rotation, and a 5pc set that makes absolutely no sense to your build (VO).

Now you can spend a bit of time on your next week-end to farm normal March of Sacrifices or normal Cloud Rest to get yourself at 36k, above what 95% of the playerbase is able to achieve on a non-Werewolf build.

The week-end after that, farm the other 5pc, and there you go, 40k+ DPS, above 98% of the playerbase.

Then, please do one last thing and drop the wolf to try reaching the self-buffed 44-46k that would get you in the 1% club, and THEN you will realize PvE werewolf DPS is indeed "easymode 35-40k"

Mr_Wolfe

@Qbiken

I'll try to keep my respones brief since the conversation is moving along:

I agree with most of what you said in your earlier post. Just a couple things:

1) Pack Leader gives the most damage, whether in PvE or PvP. Berserker has an easier time focusing it's damage on a single target, bit if the fix to command your direwolves with heavy attacks is working correctly, stray pets should be even less of an issue as of Murkmire.

2) Learning curves are relative. Every individual is going to have some things that they pick up faster than others. It's a mistake to assume that because something was easy for you, it will be that easy for everybody.

Also, I think a lot of people who call werewolf "easy" are either forgetting about the time and effort it took to get where they are, or haven't actually played it much and just assume it's easier because it has a simpler rotation.

Also, I like your idea about "Totem Weapons" Especially since all the curent arena weapons are useless in wolf form.

@tunepunk

I also like your idea of bringing the Ring of Hircine to ESO. I'm a little concerned it could lead to issues with people dropping wolf to recast their human form buff and then wolfing out again, but the transformation time and the loss of a set piece might be enough to keep that balanced.

@DocFrost72

Thanks for doing that test. I'm curious what your CP setup is like, since your stats look pretty close to what my main has in wolf form, but your parses are a good 5-6k higher.

Oddly enough, In my tests Kena underperformed compared to Selene's, though that could have been a difference in trait or because I haven't golded my kena set yet.

@Aznox

No need to get salty just because someone did a test that doesn't support your assertions. What happened to videos and screenshots making it "fact"?

Snark aside, I'm curious why you think VO "makes no sense" for werewolf?

It's a stam set that gives weapon damage, crit, major slayer, a nice boost to sustain, and a speed boost on kills that makes it easier to get to the next fight before your timer runs out. It's not relequen but it's still good.

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

@Aznox

No need to get salty just because someone did a test that doesn't support your assertions. What happened to videos and screenshots making it "fact"?

Snark aside, I'm curious why you think VO "makes no sense" for werewolf?

It's a stam set that gives weapon damage, crit, major slayer, a nice boost to sustain, and a speed boost on kills that makes it easier to get to the next fight before your timer runs out. It's not relequen but it's still good.

I'm not salty at all, passionate for sure, and maybe a bit annoyed to repeat myself

His test perfectly supports my previous assumptions : he gets 30k DPS with 0 effort.
80% of the value for the VO 5pc bonus is stamina sustain of which a PvE Werewolf doesn't need at all.
i could probably find you 10 better ww sets in 1minute, let's try :

Blood Moon
Relequen
Automaton
Advancing Yokeda
Ravager
Leviathan
Veiled Heritance
Briarhearth
Poisonous Serpent
Hundings

ok took me 3 minutes

DocFrost72

@Aznox

Are you going to buy those three dlc for me?

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Also, I think a lot of people who call werewolf "easy" are either forgetting about the time and effort it took to get where they are, or haven't actually played it much and just assume it's easier because it has a simpler rotation.

Don't get me wrong, PvP werewolf is hard, i spent hundreds of hours doing PvP as a werewolf and i know exactly why you see so few wolves in battlegrounds despite the gigantic potential, but as a guy who pretty much never did any serious PvE, the day wolfhunter came out i was doing 30K+ on a 6M dummy with randomly thrown in medium sets.

Aznox

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Aznox

Are you going to buy those three dlc for me?

Well Relequen is currently BiS for any stam build, so that's not a werewolf problem.

As for Blood Moon, it's true the next-best is probably setting you back a bit more than it would for non-werewolf builds.

Still, a good Kena/Automaton/Advancing Yokeda will probably get you to 35k+

If you can play enough i would suggest getting one month of ESO+ to farm the BM and RL

Mr_Wolfe

@Aznox

1) Your assertion was 35-40k dps, not 29-30k.

2) This was not "zero effort" Zero effort doesn't even get the tv turned on.

3) A pure slapwolf doesn't need sustain. Non slapwolf builds absolutely do because WW skills are expensive. If you're as knowledgeable as you claim, you should already know this.

Note that DocFrost hit 30k when he worked claws and howls into his rotation. That is a build that needs sustain, so a set like VO makes perfect sense. Whether there are better options is beside the point.

4) So you got lucky, or your existing skill translated well into werewolf. Or you're lying. Given the tone and degree of intellectual dishonesty in your latest posts, that last one wouldn't surprise me.

Did you miss the part where I said:

It's a mistake to assume that because something was easy for you, it will be that easy for everybody.

The experience you describe is not representative. Pretending that it is and ignoring evidence to the contrary doesn't make your conclusions valid.

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

@Aznox

1) Your assertion was 35-40k dps, not 29-30k.

2) This was not "zero effort" Zero effort doesn't even get the tv turned on.

Sorry, i considered farming a normal trial and a normal dungeon to be "easy mode" compared to mastering a 40k DPS non-werewolf rotation.

i maintain 30k is "zero effort" and 35-40k easy mode.

let's agree to disagree.

3) A pure slapwolf doesn't need sustain. Non slapwolf builds absolutely do because WW skills are expensive. If you're as knowledgeable as you claim, you should already know this.

the 40k i'm talking about is light attack spam, pounce between targets.

4) So you got lucky, or your existing skill translated well into werewolf. Or you're lying. Given the tone and degree of intellectual dishonesty in your latest posts, that last one wouldn't surprise me.

Did you miss the part where I said:

It's a mistake to assume that because something was easy for you, it will be that easy for everybody.

The experience you describe is not representative. Pretending that it is and ignoring evidence to the contrary doesn't make your conclusions valid.

Do you honestly think farming one or two sets in non-vet content and spamming light attack is that hard for anyone ?

You guys really need a reality check : can you provide me with a parse of your best non-werewolf DPS rotation ?

Do you realize how hard it is for the average player to first achieve 20-25k on a dummy with a non-werewolf build ?
For a stam player, getting the required Maelstrom Bow alone when new to vMA would take more time/effort than farming a full BiS (except non-perfected Relequen) werewolf gear.

I'm out of this non-sense discussion, maybe next week-end if i get time i'll post you a video of me doing 30k+ light attack DPS with purple non-DLC gear.

Aznox

I'm out of this non-sense discussion, maybe next week-end if i get time i'll post you a video of me doing 30k+ light attack DPS with purple non-DLC gear.

Here you go, i took 5min to craft a purple Hunding set to replace my Blood Moon :

Qbiken

[img][/img]

Relequen + Bloodmoon + Kena*
* Kena is replaceable by Selene´s and fall 1-2k DPS behind.

Here´s a picture of my own WW- DPS parse right after Wolfhunter got out.It´s basically all light attack spam, and re-applying Claws of Life once it runs out. A few things to keep in mind:
* No Major Fracture
* I´m using the Berserker Morph which is 2-3k less DPS than Pack-Leader
* All Jewelries are robust. If I wanted to maximize my damage I would go with either 3x Infused, 3x Bloodthirsty or a mixture of both traits.

So 45k+ with optimal setup would be easily achievable.

DocFrost72

Both of you are arguing something entirely different from what I am... can we at least agree on that, or is that also "wrong"?

I am arguing to get the "35-40k easy mode" dps, you HAVE to run dlc sets, which even if you're a knowledgeable experienced player means spending 15$.

You have to pay money to get the parses you are posting as easy mode.

The content (bar kena) is laughably easy. I agree.

The dps amount is jacked for the effort in, when compared to full rotations. I agree.

Now, will you agree the majority of players aren't going to spend the money you're talking for the additional 5-10k dps on a niche setup with little demand due to low to non existent aoe damage? Because if you agree to that, then my figure of 30k becomes the "no effort/easy mode", and yours becomes the "optimized".

DocFrost72

@Mr_Wolfe

Will post cp when I get home

ccfeeling

WW could hits 40-45k with current meta setup, are they viable in end game trial?lol, No!

Low survibility, only melee range, lack of function tools,up time, lack of aoe ability, OP? Low effort?

Try vcr or vhof.

Chrlynsch

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Both of you are arguing something entirely different from what I am... can we at least agree on that, or is that also "wrong"?

I am arguing to get the "35-40k easy mode" dps, you HAVE to run dlc sets, which even if you're a knowledgeable experienced player means spending 15$.

You have to pay money to get the parses you are posting as easy mode.

The content (bar kena) is laughably easy. I agree.

The dps amount is jacked for the effort in, when compared to full rotations. I agree.

Now, will you agree the majority of players aren't going to spend the money you're talking for the additional 5-10k dps on a niche setup with little demand due to low to non existent aoe damage? Because if you agree to that, then my figure of 30k becomes the "no effort/easy mode", and yours becomes the "optimized".

https://plays.tv/video/5be1a2d3a546e579cb/easy-mode-ww-dps

Aznox

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Both of you are arguing something entirely different from what I am... can we at least agree on that, or is that also "wrong"?

I am arguing to get the "35-40k easy mode" dps, you HAVE to run dlc sets, which even if you're a knowledgeable experienced player means spending 15$.

You have to pay money to get the parses you are posting as easy mode.

The content (bar kena) is laughably easy. I agree.

The dps amount is jacked for the effort in, when compared to full rotations. I agree.

Now, will you agree the majority of players aren't going to spend the money you're talking for the additional 5-10k dps on a niche setup with little demand due to low to non existent aoe damage? Because if you agree to that, then my figure of 30k becomes the "no effort/easy mode", and yours becomes the "optimized".

I perfectly understand your problem about DLC-locked BiS gear, but i don't think werewolf is much more affected by this than non-werewolves.

Any stam parse (that we use as reference in this discussion, consciously or not) you see these days on the forum/youtube are with (perfected)Relequen.

So yes, that leaves you with BloodMoon as a set only useful for werewolves, maybe ask ZoS to queue for theses dungeons without owning the DLC if your character is a werewolf ? (disclaimer : good luck)

Edit : just saw @Chrlynsch 's video, lets have a little challenge where we all post ww rotations with random non-dlc gear