[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

ScardyFox

I've been playing werewolf probably longer then anyone else around here (I just don't post that often in comparison to the years I've been here).I don't have a problem keeping my werewolf at all -- I'd like a toggle just because I don't like reverting unless I had to. I literally consider it my class rather then the NB that I am.

But... that said, I do see the point of the anti toggle side of the coin. A werewolves place is always so damn precarious because people are always finding every reason under the sun to nerf us (even though we're probably one of the balanced "classes"). It does come across as yet another reason to unbalance - some - aspect to us and force another witch hunt.

Or wolfhunt as it were.

In battle, you kinda have to be hard-pressed to not keep your form. I would just like running around from keep to keep as it were in my form without worry. Is it laziness? Mmm, no, just the aforementioned where I think of werewolf as my class.

The absolute fairest way is to let use gain ultimate (at a reduced rate) to re-transform when we do lose form. It also opens the door for werewolves to have an ultimate to use whilst we are werewolves if we so choose. Or, aforementioned again, re-transform.

Hell, maybe not give us an ultimate use (as described above)but a way to refill a near empty bar to transform, in essence doubling our length of time. With a stunted ultimate generation ratio (while transformed) it couldn't really get too out of hand.

Point is, there are a lot of possibilities in my opinion if they would just actually take more then the most generic approach possible.

tunepunk

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So here is my feedback regarding post Wolfhunter DLC werewolf state. Biggest pain points:

1. No access to taunt - this makes it impossible for werewolf to fulfil a tank role and basically limits its use to only one role with almost no build diversity - stamina DPS. Adding a taunt would allow to use werewolf as a tank and it would bring more diversity to werewolf builds and playstyles.
Some ideas:

You could switch one of your sets to "Tormentor" The 5 piece bonus should probably work with the charge?

(5 items) When you deal damage with a Charge ability,you gain 3642 Physical and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.

Chrlynsch

tunepunk wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So here is my feedback regarding post Wolfhunter DLC werewolf state. Biggest pain points:

1. No access to taunt - this makes it impossible for werewolf to fulfil a tank role and basically limits its use to only one role with almost no build diversity - stamina DPS. Adding a taunt would allow to use werewolf as a tank and it would bring more diversity to werewolf builds and playstyles.
Some ideas:

You could switch one of your sets to "Tormentor" The 5 piece bonus should probably work with the charge?

(5 items) When you deal damage with a Charge ability,you gain 3642 Physical and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.

Nope.

tunepunk

Chrlynsch wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So here is my feedback regarding post Wolfhunter DLC werewolf state. Biggest pain points:

1. No access to taunt - this makes it impossible for werewolf to fulfil a tank role and basically limits its use to only one role with almost no build diversity - stamina DPS. Adding a taunt would allow to use werewolf as a tank and it would bring more diversity to werewolf builds and playstyles.
Some ideas:

You could switch one of your sets to "Tormentor" The 5 piece bonus should probably work with the charge?

(5 items) When you deal damage with a Charge ability,you gain 3642 Physical and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.

Nope.

Didn't try it myself but it's strange if it doesn't work. Possibly a bug then? Pounce should count as a charge skill imo.

Aznox

tunepunk wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So here is my feedback regarding post Wolfhunter DLC werewolf state. Biggest pain points:

1. No access to taunt - this makes it impossible for werewolf to fulfil a tank role and basically limits its use to only one role with almost no build diversity - stamina DPS. Adding a taunt would allow to use werewolf as a tank and it would bring more diversity to werewolf builds and playstyles.
Some ideas:

You could switch one of your sets to "Tormentor" The 5 piece bonus should probably work with the charge?

(5 items) When you deal damage with a Charge ability,you gain 3642 Physical and Spell Resistance and taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds.

Nope.

Didn't try it myself but it's strange if it doesn't work. Possibly a bug then? Pounce should count as a charge skill imo.

We have tried ...

... regularly ...

.. for years.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Search=tormentor+pounce

DocFrost72

Not inly is tormentor not working, but I was not seeing either form of roar affect bosses. The fear shouldn't and that's normal, but I'm starting to suspect that neither the penetration nor the off balance morphs actually deliver said statuses to enemies immune to CC. Will test to be triple sure later when I get home.

Aznox

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Not inly is tormentor not working, but I was not seeing either form of roar affect bosses. The fear shouldn't and that's normal, but I'm starting to suspect that neither the penetration nor the off balance morphs actually deliver said statuses to enemies immune to CC. Will test to be triple sure later when I get home.

Yes this is known, CC immune enemies (players or mobs) are not affected by secondary effects.
You could ask to get this changed for the Major Fracture morph but 100% off-balance uptime would be too strong.

Kilcosu

from what I've seen on parses myself while on a target test dummy the major fracture definitely doesn't get applied as the dummy is immune to fear.

which means elite mobs and bosses are also immune which leads me to think..
would it be game breaking if the combat system applied the debuff of fracture or off balance before checking if the mob was immune to fear effects or not? doesn't affect pvp unless I'm missing something

Aznox

Major Fracture would not be game breaking because this is a relatively easy to find debuff.

Off-balance however is a very powerful status effect, for which specifics rules/mechanics are in place to limit its uptime on Bosses, and is much harder to obtain in PvP.

DocFrost72

Aznox wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Not inly is tormentor not working, but I was not seeing either form of roar affect bosses. The fear shouldn't and that's normal, but I'm starting to suspect that neither the penetration nor the off balance morphs actually deliver said statuses to enemies immune to CC. Will test to be triple sure later when I get home.

Yes this is known, CC immune enemies (players or mobs) are not affected by secondary effects.
You could ask to get this changed for the Major Fracture morph but 100% off-balance uptime would be too strong.

Bosses have natural off balance immunity for 15 seconds after each application. I was under the impression that secondary effects secondary still fired even if a snare or CC didn't (ala low slash and morphs with maim). It kinda makes this ability less than appetizing in pve

Not to mention if wolves ever do get a way to tank, fracture uptime would be nice.

Aznox

I agree it would, but in serious PvE roar is a DPS loss for werewolf and tank does major fracture/breach anyway so ...

DocFrost72

Oh for sure, in serious pve bar maelstrom I probably wouldn't touch roar. But maelstrom is certainly serious pve, and both fracture and off balance are particularly useful.

Aznox

Very true, forgot about vMA.

Mr_Wolfe

You guys are just now figuring this out? I (and others) were posting about this issue back when the wolfhunter changes were first announced, but of course nobody listened.

The secondary effects of roar don't work on CC immune enemies, making that skill completely useless against bosses.

This is not news. But glad you guys could finally catch up to the conversation months after the PTS for wolfhunter is closed.

Aznox

Were did i say this was new to me ?

Qbiken

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

You guys are just now figuring this out? I (and others) were posting about this issue back when the wolfhunter changes were first announced, but of course nobody listened.

The secondary effects of roar don't work on CC immune enemies, making that skill completely useless against bosses.

This is not news. But glad you guys could finally catch up to the conversation months after the PTS for wolfhunter is closed.

Not new to me either. But I never considered this to be a bug/negative feature during the PTS, but something that made sense and was a part of the skills mechanics.

And werewolf doesn´t exactly need more buffs for PvE tbh

Mr_Wolfe

Werewolves already have an extremely limited toolset. Making one of their 5 available skills useless in boss fights was not a positive change. But instead of standing up for werewolf players and pointing this out, you guys cheerleaded the changes so hard I was beginning to wonder if ZOS had paid you for it.

It's great that you guys can somehow pull performance out of WW that 90% of the playerbase can't come close to, but your experience is not typical. Ignoring major issues like this and claiming that werewolves "don't need buffs" based on the performance of a handful of elite players is a gross misrepresentation.

Casually acknowledging the issue months after the fact is just pouring salt in the wound.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

@Aznox I'm confused too, and more than a little frustrated. The experience on xbox one does not match what we are hearing and seeing from pc players, which leads me to wonder if there is an actual difference between platforms or just some difference in our testing methods. This is doubly frustrating since consoles are not included in the PTS, and most of the feedback ZOS seems to listen to is coming from the pc "x is overpowered, y is too easy" crowd.

I'd be very interested in doing some comparisons with somebody on pc. Same build/gear/cp, same type of target skeleton, hold down heavy attack to eliminate any differences in rotation/execution, etc.

Do you have ideal CP distribution? I'm on XBX NA and pull 30K in my PVP gear (Darkstride, Prisoner's, Kena) with full impen and all prismatic enchantments without either Blood Moon or Relequen. It's about a 10K dps difference between ideal WW CP setup and stam dps CP distribution.

GT: KraftySynystra

make that 15-20k difference m8 if expecially if your not a khajiit

Chrlynsch

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Werewolves already have an extremely limited toolset. Making one of their 5 available skills useless in boss fights was not a positive change. But instead of standing up for werewolf players and pointing this out, you guys cheerleaded the changes so hard I was beginning to wonder if ZOS had paid you for it.

It's great that you guys can somehow pull performance out of WW that 90% of the playerbase can't come close to, but your experience is not typical. Ignoring major issues like this and claiming that werewolves "don't need buffs" based on the performance of a handful of elite players is a gross misrepresentation.

Casually acknowledging the issue months after the fact is just pouring salt in the wound.

If 90% of wolves can't put cp in the right spots, put on meta wolf gear and literally only spam light attack... why should anyone listen to what they have to say concerning balance and gameplay health?

Mr_Wolfe

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Werewolves already have an extremely limited toolset. Making one of their 5 available skills useless in boss fights was not a positive change. But instead of standing up for werewolf players and pointing this out, you guys cheerleaded the changes so hard I was beginning to wonder if ZOS had paid you for it.

It's great that you guys can somehow pull performance out of WW that 90% of the playerbase can't come close to, but your experience is not typical. Ignoring major issues like this and claiming that werewolves "don't need buffs" based on the performance of a handful of elite players is a gross misrepresentation.

Casually acknowledging the issue months after the fact is just pouring salt in the wound.

If 90% of wolves can't put cp in the right spots, put on meta wolf gear and literally only spam light attack... why should anyone listen to what they have to say concerning balance and gameplay health?

Why do you assume they haven't?

As I said before, most of the werewolf players I know who've copied Alcast's slapwolf build (including CP) got around 30k dps out of it. Hence why I wanted to do some comparison testing between Xbox and PC.

This issue isn't just limited to werewolf builds. From what I've seen, meta builds that claim "easy dps" are performing significantly worse than advertised for most players who try them. Unfortunately, when people try to bring this up we're dismissively told to "just copy X build" and that hitting 30-40k is easy. When we persist, we're told it must be a problem with our rotation--though no one ever seems to have any advice on how to improve our rotation besides "git gud." By then most of us have the good sense to slink off and stop asking for advice.

Thing is, this new slapwolf meta proves it's not just bad rotations causing the difference--unless you think we're all somehow screwing up an all light attack rotation. I'd like to get to the bottom of this issue and help myself and my fellow players to improve, but dismissive, elitist comments like the one above don't help.

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Werewolves already have an extremely limited toolset. Making one of their 5 available skills useless in boss fights was not a positive change. But instead of standing up for werewolf players and pointing this out, you guys cheerleaded the changes so hard I was beginning to wonder if ZOS had paid you for it.

It's great that you guys can somehow pull performance out of WW that 90% of the playerbase can't come close to, but your experience is not typical. Ignoring major issues like this and claiming that werewolves "don't need buffs" based on the performance of a handful of elite players is a gross misrepresentation.

Casually acknowledging the issue months after the fact is just pouring salt in the wound.

If 90% of wolves can't put cp in the right spots, put on meta wolf gear and literally only spam light attack... why should anyone listen to what they have to say concerning balance and gameplay health?

Why do you assume they haven't?

As I said before, most of the werewolf players I know who've copied Alcast's slapwolf build (including CP) got around 30k dps out of it. Hence why I wanted to do some comparison testing between Xbox and PC.

This issue isn't just limited to werewolf builds. From what I've seen, meta builds that claim "easy dps" are performing significantly worse than advertised for most players who try them. Unfortunately, when people try to bring this up we're dismissively told to "just copy X build" and that hitting 30-40k is easy. When we persist, we're told it must be a problem with our rotation--though no one ever seems to have any advice on how to improve our rotation besides "git gud." By then most of us have the good sense to slink off and stop asking for advice.

Thing is, this new slapwolf meta proves it's not just bad rotations causing the difference--unless you think we're all somehow screwing up an all light attack rotation. I'd like to get to the bottom of this issue and help myself and my fellow players to improve, but dismissive, elitist comments like the one above don't help.

Can you provide a video of a Kena/Relequen/BloodMoon wolf hitting the dummy and getting only 30k DPS ?
It's not just that i have a hard time believing it, but that would be the best way for us to find what is wrong.

Marcusito

I’ve been running Kena/Hundings and Briarheart because that is what I have access to. I’ve topped out at 40k dps and can hit 9400 weapon damage with a mean of 8400.

It works ok for most Vet dungeons and I prefer ww in pugs because of tanks without taunts and healers that have trouble. I can heal myself, dps and mitigate damage. I’m good for 90% of the Vet dungeon content, solo most of the world bosses, outside of trials everything else is just trivial content.

Marcusito

The rotation also matters. You have to keep the Fracture debuff up, I run with another WW so we have the howl synergy running constantly giving a buff to our light attacks. You have to keep major brutality up, and the use the roar as an execute. We both use the dog Ultimate because they can off tank. 4 dogs and 2 werewolves works most of the time.

Mr_Wolfe

@Aznox I don't have a set of perfect relequen myself, because all the vet trial groups I've found want to see higher parses than I can currently manage, and I haven't wanted to pug it. I'll hit up some of my guild mates who were getting ~30k on their slapwolf builds though.

I know what you mean about finding it hard to believe. That's how I feel when people claim parses of 40k+. I know precisely one person who's parsed that high on a werewolf. He's one of the best players I know, and he wasn't on a slapwolf clone when he did it.

But this thread isn't the place for me to b***h about dps woes, though I'm more than happy to continue that discussion somewhere else. I'm planning on doing some serious testing and analysis of werewolf once I get access to Murkmire, so I'll probably have some detailed feedback to post here.

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

@Aznox I don't have a set of perfect relequen myself, because all the vet trial groups I've found want to see higher parses than I can currently manage, and I haven't wanted to pug it. I'll hit up some of my guild mates who were getting ~30k on their slapwolf builds though.

You don't even need the perfected version of Relequen to hit 40k light attack DPS, and farming nCR is possible with any group of randoms.

I know what you mean about finding it hard to believe. That's how I feel when people claim parses of 40k+. I know precisely one person who's parsed that high on a werewolf. He's one of the best players I know, and he wasn't on a slapwolf clone when he did it.

There's nothing to believe when videos and parse results are provided, it becomes facts

Defilted

I don't want any of my good wolf PVP skills replaced with a taunt. I do not want a toggle.

The only thing that I think that could change that would not throw wolves out of balance and make them to good would be Ult regen while in wolf.

Wolves are in a good spot in PVP right now and with the fix to resistances it will be that much better on Tuesday.

I would also like to see a cosmetic wolf skin/s in the crown store asap.

I don't want to see the skills change so a taunt can be added but what if they added a taunt effect to piercing howl? This way none of the skill changes negatively affect PVP and PVE gets a taunt.

Sharee

Defilted wrote: »

The only thing that I think that could change that would not throw wolves out of balance and make them to good would be Ult regen while in wolf.

I think that would lead to perma-wolves that transform back as soon as their original timer runs out. The WW power is balanced by the limited time they can spend in-form. So this would not be good.

However, it would be an interesting idea to give WW form its own ultimate (other than transformation) that would work like a regular ult. In that case, regen while transformed could work. It would mean a WW cannot transform back at will, but that could be worked around (for example pack leader would stay "traditional", while berserker would lose the ability to transform back at will in exchange for the new "special" WW-form-only ultimate)

DocFrost72

Defilted wrote: »

I don't want any of my good wolf PVP skills replaced with a taunt.

I can actually agree. I think tormentor should activate on pounce and morphs. You don't accidentally equip 5 pieces of armor.

I do not want a toggle.

I respectfully ask why not?

Chrlynsch

No toggle please.

ZOS give me a biscuit please.

Thanks please.

Jaraal

Sharee wrote: »

Defilted wrote: »

The only thing that I think that could change that would not throw wolves out of balance and make them to good would be Ult regen while in wolf.

I think that would lead to perma-wolves that transform back as soon as their original timer runs out. The WW power is balanced by the limited time they can spend in-form. So this would not be good.

However, it would be an interesting idea to give WW form its own ultimate (other than transformation) that would work like a regular ult. In that case, regen while transformed could work. It would mean a WW cannot transform back at will, but that could be worked around (for example pack leader would stay "traditional", while berserker would lose the ability to transform back at will in exchange for the new "special" WW-form-only ultimate)

I like the idea of a stand alone ultimate generated while in werewolf form. Make it an actual skill you can activate when your WW ultimate bar fills up. Doing this would make you have to choose a skill to forfeit to slot the "chargeable" skill, to make it balanced.

I think trying to fill the special charge skill with WW ultimate before your transformation expires would add a new fun challenge to the playstyle. I'm always looking at the blacked out ultimate box and thinking what a waste that is.