That Guy we always end up kicking from group (You're not going to like it)

Aluneth

MrSensible wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

What it comes down to, that so many don't seem willing to bend to, is people being patient with who they get grouped with in DF. I'll use my own group of folks as an example. When it's just 3 of us (all at CP cap and beyond) we strive to be very friendly with whoever we pick up. What we often run into is someone who only has 5 minutes to run a dungeon and they get annoyed with us because we're not speed racing through it.

I got a whisper from one of these types recently who said, "If you want to go slower get a group of your own and stop wasting my time." I bolded "my" for a reason. "MY" time....that player sees everything as revolving around them. I informed them that they were actually the pug and the rest of us were, in fact, grouped together. Incidentally, we actually weren't plodding along by any means, this person just wanted to blaze through it. That's a huge problem. Way too many players are so self absorbed that they can only see things from their own perspective. They feel the game, and you, revolve around them and it never occurs to them that they're extremely wrong about this.

We DO kick jack wagons like this. We don't need'em, anyway. If you're cool, though, and especially friendly we'll even invite you to run other dungeons with us. Act like a spoiled brat royalty baby and we'll kick you straight to the curb. Have fun, DPS, waiting in queue for another 3 hours.

You're largely correct here, and this has been my experience most of the time. I am even guilty of it in my original example. Some people are real cool about it, and we end up grouping with them because we all adjust our expectations. The thing is, it's very hard (read: impossible) to change people and the way they act with each other. But what can be done is incentivizing people to behave differently. If That Guy was rewarded for behaving in a different manner, he just might. It wouldn't work for everyone. No one solution possibly could.

What kind of reward though? I have no idea.

So are we going to reward people for slowing down, or are we going to reward people for speeding up?

Alagras

I think many posts are unfair to the OP. When you get in a group it s to play as a group. If you give zero f about what your 3 teammates want it s normal they kick you.

Look at it this way: sometimes I want to listen to dialogs. If others prefer to rush, but I don t care and still listen to quest while they wait every time, aren t they gonna kick me?

Now OP where I disagree with you:

- group finder will bring 90% of speedrunners so as others pointed zone chat and guilds are the way to go.

-when the group forms if you say nicely and clearly what you want the guy will either accept or decide to get another group, he ll rarely say "ok" then still rush

Anywayz glad you had a blast, and like you I don t like to trio what I can duo and so on. Ants-stomping sucks, challenge tuning rocks!

OGLezard

What system do you play on?what server? I like running dungeons and would even do vet dungeons with you guys. I dont care about speed and if you want to stop and smell the Rose's that's ok with me too.

I just like to have fun. I bet we would have a blast together!

D0PAMINE

MrSensible wrote: »

krachall wrote: »

The problem isn't with That Guy, it's with ZOS. Praise their balance all you want but That Guy has to use the same exact dungeon finder to find people who won't crawl through trivial content that you have to use to find people who want to make a 4 minute dungeon take 20 minutes.

Daily Random Normals are the best way in the game to build skill levels (in case you didn't know, once you have a character with "8 billion CPs," all your characters have 8 billion CPs) so a new level 50 has high CPs but most skills below 50. He needs the Dungeon Finder as much as you do...

Basically you've said that your enjoyment of a dungeon's slow pace is more important than his time. He could make an identical post from the other viewpoint and be equally as correct.

You are exactly correct on every point, here. Especially the last one. Yes, my enjoyment > your enjoyment. It will always be this way. BUT, that doesn't mean I don't want you or That Guy to also have fun. I get no pleasure from voting to kick That Guy from group. I want to play with That Guy, but I want him to get as much out of the dungeon as I do.

How can we make this happen? Is it possible?

Hmm, maybe message in chat about how you'd like to do the quest? It's simple really.

POps75p

I wish I could always get 3 of The Guy every time I que up, get it done and GTF out of dodge!

Malacthulhu

As long as he is not frost taunting everything, I don't care if "that guy" is doing jumping jack emotes.
One guiltly pleasure I have is doing horn emotes and passing them off as warhorns then when no one gets the buff I declare they all heard it.

OGLezard

Malacthulhu wrote: »

As long as he is not frost taunting everything, I don't care if "that guy" is doing jumping jack emotes.
One guiltly pleasure I have is doing horn emotes and passing them off as warhorns then when no one gets the buff I declare they all heard it.

Omfg this is gold, well done yo well done

bellatrixed

Curious... do you actually tell your random you're doing the story/playing through slowly? Or do you expect them to read your mind?

In every MMO ever, it's the general "culture" that it's assumed if you're in the group finder you want to complete the dungeon in a timely fashion.

If you want to intentionally go out of your way to do the dungeon slowly, that's cool, but either 3 man it or recruit in a guild or zone chat "Doing a story/slow playthrough of a dungeon, need 1 more"

Personally I never mind people doing the quests--the only people who DO mind if someone is clearly waiting for a quest NPC to finish talking are jerks. But, I also expect people to not hold the dungeon up for everyone else. If you are reading every single piece of the quest painstakingly slowly and roaming around instead of just completing it... most people will be annoyed at your lack of respect for THEIR time.

Dungeon finder = people who want to get in and out.
Solution = don't use dungeon finder.

Shantu

Kicking people sucks. It's the damn dungeon finder. Everyone that uses it knows it's a crap-shoot. If you can't put a group together outside of it, then learn to live with the fact you're typically not going to get what you're looking for and roll with it.

Bryong9ub17_ESO

@MrSensible

Phage wrote: »

So what I'm seeing is you queued into LFG, saw That Guy, and you discriminated against him and kicked from your group, even though he hadn't been a jerk etc.

Here's the question: Why even queue into LFG? If your awesomesauce 3-man is sooo good, why not just travel to the dungeon yourselves?

Don't queue into LFG and then get on your high horse. People of all sorts queue into LFG, and they are all just as entitled to run in LFG. You have zero right to kick someone just because they don't meet the standards of your sight-seeing slowroll 3-man. We've run those dungeons a thousand times or more, and you're wasting other peoples time and yours by queuing into something and kicking people when you can do it by yourselves.

TL;DR
Don't queue into LFG with your slowroll 3-man if you're going to kick people who don't play the way you wanna play.

It doesn't make you the good guy. It makes you the ***.

^This

The only thing you are showing me is that you are the problem, not "that guy".

Kuwhar

MrSensible wrote: »

This is going to be a discussion about CP balance, dungeon balance, and balancing player goals.

I play ESO primarily with two friends who I've known for a long time. We all played at launch, but quickly got bored with the game and quit. 4 years later (about a month ago now) we all decided to get back into it and give it another shot. Primarily, we love to do dungeons together and have worked our way through all the normal dungeon story content. I rolled tank, one rolled dps, and one rolled healer (we didn't plan this, it just sort of happened).

First, let me say that the game is a lot better today than it was 4 years ago. And I think the ZOS team has done an amazing job. Secondly, I think every dungeon is beautifully designed and PERFECTLY tuned, however, this tuning is oddly specific (which I will get into later).

But first, let's talk about the guy we have had to kick from 90% of our dungeon runs. Because there's only three of us, and we use the dungeon finder often, we end up with a random fourth. Our pickup, more often than not, fits the following criteria:

1. Doesn't care that WE want to do the story quest in the dungeon and just wants to speed through at warp 9.
2. Pulls enemies while we talk to NPCs.
3. Rushes head first into every pull (in light armor) then expects me to pull aggro off of them.
4. Stands in every red circle ever.
5. Cries when he/she dies from the above things.
6. Has 8 billion champion points.

Going forward, I shall refer to the above hypothetical player as "That Guy".

Now let's talk about the difficulty tuning of a simple dungeon like Fungal Grotto. FG-Normal can be sleep-walked through in 15 minutes by a 750CP sorcerer who is spamming lightning splash, while eating his dinner and watching Rick and Morty. FG-Normal provides no challenge for That Guy. And in terms of fun-value, offers him nothing at all. It is not designed for That Guy. It never has been and never will be.

So, who is FG-Normal designed for? Well, as I said, the tuning is perfect and is very specific. It's designed for fresh level 10-15s, who are still learning how to interrupt, have 3 abilities on their skill bar (maybe don't even have an ultimate yet) and are wearing greens and white gear. And you know what? It is the PERFECT difficulty level for that specific goal. We ended up kicking That Guy from our FG-Normal group, and 3-manned the rest in our white, level 10 gear, and had a blast.

Additionally, I would daresay that all normal dungeons are actually tuned for 3-manning. As we have had to kick That Guy 90% of the time, we have 3-manned almost every normal dungeon. And the difficulty has always felt juuuuust right. I would like to give special mention to ICP and Mazzatun - which were the most fun 3-mans we had. They were absolutely amazing. Some of the best dungeons I have ever done in an MMO. They were perfectly tuned for 3 CP100s (and were not at all tuned for That Guy), had awesome boss fights with fun mechanics, and had great quests with interesting characters.

And look, I get it, I really do. That Guy is on his 150th run through Fungal Grotto. He only queued up so he could do his daily or so he could farm some obscure piece of equipment to complete his armor collection. Or maybe That Guy has a LOT of fun just steamrolling through content like a Mac Truck through an ice cream stand. I don't know. And to be honest, I really don't care. Because me and my friends don't. We want to DO the dungeon quests. We want to figure out the fights (which doesn't mean: watch a youtube video or read a guide). And we definitely DON'T want to be carried through by That Guy because he can ignore 99% of the mechanics due to his CP level.

The last thing I wanted to talk about is that other 10%. The other 10% of the time, we get a guy who falls right within our level range. Or, he has a ton of CP, but doesn't meet the above criteria. We ran White-Gold Tower Normal with a guy who hadn't beat it after owning it for 3 years (how is that even possible?). He had 750 CP and did NONE of the things that That Guy does. He was awesome. We had a blast with him, and added him to friends.

Which brings us to the real point of this thread.

TL;DR
"A kick happens when people's goals don't line up." - Some Smart Guy On ESO Forums in Another Thread
How do we get people's goals to line up better in random dungeon groups? Right now, they usually don't seem to line up at all. Dungeons aren't designed for That Guy. It's not That Guys fault he has too much CP or is too good at the game. How do we give That Guy more challenge? And should ZOS even care?

Man, i wish i could roll with you guys. Soundsexactly the style i like to go.

My pet peeve is people literaly sprinting ahead of me (when im tanking) constantly, aggroing everything. And i barely have time to loot.

As you said, I get it, That guy is on his 100th run and wants to get it done but is rushing ahead really maki

Aluneth wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

As you said, I get it, That guy is on his 100th run and wants to get it done but is rushing ahead really making it THAT much faster? What does it save, 5 mins? 10 tops?

That's 5-10 minutes per dungeon you're saving. You can complete quite a few dungeons in 10 minutes. I'll get 8-10 dungeons completed at the time you'll get 4-5. That is a huge difference, and very time inefficient.

Ok but where is the expectation on your part coming from? That people using GF somehow should be expected to 1: move as fast as possible and 2: know every mechanic.

If you want to finish runs as fast as possible, why not form a group of like minded individuals lile everyone is telling the OP?

This whole thing goes both ways, when you use a random GF you should have no expectations that the group will play a certain way, whether fast or slow.

But lets be honest, the guys rushing ahead of everyone are the first ones to complain or be disparaging, even if they get themselves killed.

I notice every time im in a PUG that wipes, the first person to bail is that same guy. Yet, their replacement comes and we get the job done.

Makes you wonder...

Kalgert

Gargath wrote: »

I'd say put 4 treasure master chests at each quest area of a dungeon, that would stop the people who don't have quests, from rushing ahead. Give them some lock picking job with hard difficulty .
Or maybe set a bunch of doors, which won't open untill the last quest line of all players in group is being scrolled.

This is actually not a bad idea. It could actually inspire for people to explore the dungeons as well as opposed to running in a straight line.

Regarding the subject at hand, I don't know if to praise or feel concerned. Praise because you are giving That Guy a firm punishment for being a bull-rushing clot, or be concerned because if I get paired with you in an unforseeable future, will I be kicked out as well for being someone who can take things at a slower pace, but may end up pulling something although the certain something is not a real danger to myself?

I don't think I would enjoy getting booted out for something as mundane as that, but other than that, going slower is not a problem for me. Heck, I often try my hardest to give rushing players a kick, because honestly, *** those people, they deserve no right to play the game if you ask me.

Nyladreas

When you run said dungeon for the 100th time just to get your last piece of gear. You'll understand why we rush.

I admit I'm one of those players. However I do slow down if people ask me to for a story telling reason.

Don't just flat out kick. Ask in chat first.

imnotanother

Op, your group sounds like one I ran with the other day.

It was Vet FG 1. I entered the dungeon to find this group at the 2nd boss. They were over 300CP but when the fight started, they seemed completely ignorant of the mechanics. I had to Rez all 3 at different times and the fight took much longer than it should have.

No one was in voice chat with me so I sent a group message asking if they have done the dungeon before. No response.

Then the players would stand at the boss for minutes. I assumed they were looking at their gear.

Anyways, get to the last fight and they are standing in the black AOE circles. Dying left and right. Wipe several times.

Then they start sending me hate messages. Saying it is my fault. One jumps in the voice channel with me and explains how they are a guild and I am not doing my role (I am DD. I kill things) claims it is my fault we are wiping.

I left group, rejoined queue, took 30 minutes to find another group, but then helped that group earn the Survivor and Assassin achievements by clearing it in 15 minutes.

To me, you are “those guys.”
Just my story.

BejaProphet

The 750's don't need to get in the kiddy pool if they don't want to swim with the kiddos. I'd be upset with questers taking their time in veteran dungeons, but normal dungeons are exactly the place for that. If you are going to slum in normals, be kind to those who have a more valid reason for being there than your power leveling skill points.

MattT1988

If you’ve got no problem doing the dungeons with 3 people, why use the group finder and wasting the time of the poor fella just trying to do his pledge or get his random normal done as quickly as he sees fit? Just walk in the dungeon’s door instead of ripping off the guy just trying to get his key.

DoctorESO

"Play how you want."

Thunderknuckles

imnotanother wrote: »

Op, your group sounds like one I ran with the other day.

It was Vet FG 1. I entered the dungeon to find this group at the 2nd boss. They were over 300CP but when the fight started, they seemed completely ignorant of the mechanics. I had to Rez all 3 at different times and the fight took much longer than it should have.

No one was in voice chat with me so I sent a group message asking if they have done the dungeon before. No response.

Then the players would stand at the boss for minutes. I assumed they were looking at their gear.

Anyways, get to the last fight and they are standing in the black AOE circles. Dying left and right. Wipe several times.

Then they start sending me hate messages. Saying it is my fault. One jumps in the voice channel with me and explains how they are a guild and I am not doing my role (I am DD. I kill things) claims it is my fault we are wiping.

I left group, rejoined queue, took 30 minutes to find another group, but then helped that group earn the Survivor and Assassin achievements by clearing it in 15 minutes.

To me, you are “those guys.”
Just my story.

Wow....they were wiping on the second boss and then blamed you later for wiping on the last? LOL That just makes me shake my head.

AlnilamE

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Gargath wrote: »

I'd say put 4 treasure master chests at each quest area of a dungeon, that would stop the people who don't have quests, from rushing ahead. Give them some lock picking job with hard difficulty .
Or maybe set a bunch of doors, which won't open untill the last quest line of all players in group is being scrolled.

And force everyone into OP's playstyle? Don't you realize that 3 people that just want to farm the dungeon for gear and end up being paired with 1 from GF that wants to talk to every NPC is essentially the same problem?

Everyone has different goals for their dungeon runs. If you group with people who's goals conflict sharply with your own, you're gonna have a bad time.

/Thread

Everyone may have different goals, sure. HOWEVER: If you are queuing for the random dungeon finder, you are literaly offering your services as a group member to an incomplete group in exchange for a nice chunk of XP. So you should be willing to adapt your speed to theirs as per the terms of your contract.

If those terms are not satisfactory, then you are free to go find your group in zone and queue for a random with a complete group.

AlnilamE

Linaleah wrote: »

and just to clarify something, OP. no one is telling you that you are enjoying the game wrong. NO one. its absolutely your prerogative to enjoy dungeons the way that you prefer. what IS wrong is you trying to force YOUR way of enjoyment on OTHER people who have different preferences.

you think removing cp will change how people run dungeons? it will not. there will still be people who want to finish the place as quickly as possible, and there will be people who want to hang back and smell the roses.

now. mind you. I would LOVE it if dungeons had solo option, just to see the story.

don't care if they have zero rewards. but the moment you add other people into equation.. if you all want to be on the same page, random finder is NOT the way to do that.

That's the weird thing though, if 3 members of the team want to run the dungeon a certain way, shouldn't the 4th person be the one to accomodate? Particularly if that fourth player used the RDF to get his XP buff for the day?

When I run a random normal on any of my characters, I always ask people if they are on the quest and make sure that we are not rushing. And we still finish the dungeon in good time.

Taleof2Cities

Phage wrote: »

Here's the question: Why even queue into LFG? If your awesomesauce 3-man is sooo good, why not just travel to the dungeon yourselves?

Don't queue into LFG and then get on your high horse. It doesn't make you the good guy. It makes you the ***.

This post was conveniently skipped by the OP ... I wonder why?

If you don’t want to be subject to random players doing random things for a dungeon, don’t use the dungeon finder. It’s as simple as that.

Linaleah

AlnilamE wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

and just to clarify something, OP. no one is telling you that you are enjoying the game wrong. NO one. its absolutely your prerogative to enjoy dungeons the way that you prefer. what IS wrong is you trying to force YOUR way of enjoyment on OTHER people who have different preferences.

you think removing cp will change how people run dungeons? it will not. there will still be people who want to finish the place as quickly as possible, and there will be people who want to hang back and smell the roses.

now. mind you. I would LOVE it if dungeons had solo option, just to see the story.

don't care if they have zero rewards. but the moment you add other people into equation.. if you all want to be on the same page, random finder is NOT the way to do that.

That's the weird thing though, if 3 members of the team want to run the dungeon a certain way, shouldn't the 4th person be the one to accomodate? Particularly if that fourth player used the RDF to get his XP buff for the day?

When I run a random normal on any of my characters, I always ask people if they are on the quest and make sure that we are not rushing. And we still finish the dungeon in good time.

yes. they should. however. they are not having as much fun as they could. in some ways, kicking them actualy does them a favor, becasue they can re-queue right away, rather then wait. what grinds me wrong about OP is that rather than accept it and work around to finding a fourth to run with that has similar goals, they are actively asking about what could be done to essentially make that person who wants fast - to "enjoy" it their way. they want to change the game so that its less agreeable for people who don't play the way they play. they don't even need that fourth person apparently, they just INSIST on using random group finder anyways. and as i pointed out in another reply? if they want random daily reward? going in with full premade STILL works for that. find a 4th who wants to go at their pace and then queue up for a random.

and bear in mind. i personaly am a story person. if i get into a group that actualy waits for rp to finish, even if i have done that dungeon before, i'm happy to watch it again. heck if I saw looking for 4th, will listen to story add in zone chat, and i had enough free time to do it, I'd jump on an opportunity. i enjoy it. but 90% of the people that Op was grouped with? do NOT. they want to change the game to be less fun for 90% of the people, convinced that if only they change it maybe people who want to go fast appreciate slow more?

its not. going. to happen.

and that is something OP needs to accept and adjust accordingly. unless they want to keep kicking people.

raj72616a

an occasional change of pace is fun.
i had been on the receiving side for educational vet DLC dungeon carries,
and i also offered educational tours to nWGT and nICP.

the thing is, we formed such special purpose groups manually with guildmates.
i think the general consensus is that when you use group finder for a group, you aim for a run as fast as possible.
the achievement lists for the dungeons show that explicitly: you get achievements for completing the dungeon, for killing all bosses, for not dying even once, for completing it within a time limit. running a dungeon as fast as possible is encouraged by the dev.

imo it can be fun to follow the quest, or even roleplay in dungeon, or maybe go for a screenshot-taking tour.
but really, group finder isn't for that.

XxCaLxX

So you just kick someone without saying “ hey we’re doing this quest and learning the dungeon. Is that ok with you”? I admit that I speed run dungeons, normal or vet. But if someone says I’ve not done this before or anything along those lines I try to help. I won’t even kick a cp100 from a vet dlc unless they constantly die or just stand there.

kts

Solution: Add another queue option called "Questing". That way everyone who queues in this category knows to expect like minded people, if someone is still speeding through then you can kick.

DarcyMardin

imnotanother wrote: »

Op, your group sounds like one I ran with the other day.

It was Vet FG 1. I entered the dungeon to find this group at the 2nd boss. They were over 300CP but when the fight started, they seemed completely ignorant of the mechanics. I had to Rez all 3 at different times and the fight took much longer than it should have.

No one was in voice chat with me so I sent a group message asking if they have done the dungeon before. No response.

Then the players would stand at the boss for minutes. I assumed they were looking at their gear.

Anyways, get to the last fight and they are standing in the black AOE circles. Dying left and right. Wipe several times.

Then they start sending me hate messages. Saying it is my fault. One jumps in the voice channel with me and explains how they are a guild and I am not doing my role (I am DD. I kill things) claims it is my fault we are wiping.

I left group, rejoined queue, took 30 minutes to find another group, but then helped that group earn the Survivor and Assassin achievements by clearing it in 15 minutes.

To me, you are “those guys.”

If you read the OP’s complete post, it doesn’t sound at all as if his group is similar to your version of “those (inept) guys.” His group of three friends is doing the normal dungeons at the level they were intended for (you know...back when we all got FG, Spindle and Banished Cells at level 10). They are doing the quest and learning the mechanics. They are not standing in stupid. And they are 3-manning the DLC dungeons at CP 100.

If I am interpreting his post correctly, the OP was doing the normals the way they were originally designed to be done. The 750 CP speed demons they kicked were blitzing normals for their own convenience, pulling more mobs than they could kill, and ignoring the three other members of the group who still needed to get their skill point.

The game is getting new players all the time. Those players don’t necessarily have guilds and lots of friends. They are the ones the dungeon finder should be best for, rather than the longtime player who wants another crystal or another key or a chunk of experience pts. (Ideally, the dungeon finder should be good for everyone, but given the complaints from all sides, it’s pretty clear that this isn’t working very well).

I’m delighted when I run into folks like the OP and his friends. They do dungeons the way I like to do them — as a team who respect one another’s needs and goals.

templesus

@ZOS these are the casuals you are pushing this game towards. Is this really what you want out of your playerbase? These types of players?

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

ZOS nerf text walls.

MrSensible

DarcyMardin wrote: »

imnotanother wrote: »

Op, your group sounds like one I ran with the other day.

It was Vet FG 1. I entered the dungeon to find this group at the 2nd boss. They were over 300CP but when the fight started, they seemed completely ignorant of the mechanics. I had to Rez all 3 at different times and the fight took much longer than it should have.

No one was in voice chat with me so I sent a group message asking if they have done the dungeon before. No response.

Then the players would stand at the boss for minutes. I assumed they were looking at their gear.

Anyways, get to the last fight and they are standing in the black AOE circles. Dying left and right. Wipe several times.

Then they start sending me hate messages. Saying it is my fault. One jumps in the voice channel with me and explains how they are a guild and I am not doing my role (I am DD. I kill things) claims it is my fault we are wiping.

I left group, rejoined queue, took 30 minutes to find another group, but then helped that group earn the Survivor and Assassin achievements by clearing it in 15 minutes.

To me, you are “those guys.”

If you read the OP’s complete post, it doesn’t sound at all as if his group is similar to your version of “those (inept) guys.” His group of three friends is doing the normal dungeons at the level they were intended for (you know...back when we all got FG, Spindle and Banished Cells at level 10). They are doing the quest and learning the mechanics. They are not standing in stupid. And they are 3-manning the DLC dungeons at CP 100.

If I am interpreting his post correctly, the OP was doing the normals the way they were originally designed to be done. The 750 CP speed demons they kicked were blitzing normals for their own convenience, pulling more mobs than they could kill, and ignoring the three other members of the group who still needed to get their skill point.

The game is getting new players all the time. Those players don’t necessarily have guilds and lots of friends. They are the ones the dungeon finder should be best for, rather than the longtime player who wants another crystal or another key or a chunk of experience pts. (Ideally, the dungeon finder should be good for everyone, but given the complaints from all sides, it’s pretty clear that this isn’t working very well).

I’m delighted when I run into folks like the OP and his friends. They do dungeons the way I like to do them — as a team who respect one another’s needs and goals.

Yes. This. 1000 up votes for this post.

Many people seem to think this post is about me and my group of friends. It really isn't. It's just my experience. It's my point of view of what I feel is an obvious shortcoming.

The dungeon system can be thought of as a sort of extended tutorial. Each normal sub-50 dugeon seems designed for a certain goal: in FG's case, it seems to be "learn to block big hits". Banished Cells is about interrupting. The same is true for many more dungeons down the line. Blackheart Haven's purpose seems to be to teach new players (who are now getting into their 30s) to play their role properly, and the end-boss is all about adapting to situations where a player is taken out of the fight. Ideally, by the time you get to Vaults of Madness, you should have a real handle on all the games mechanics and how your role works.

But again, these goals are ONLY met if That Guy isn't present (and the players aren't severely overleveled themselves).
And I have to reiterate, because it's very important. This is NOT That Guy's fault. This is a game design/mechanics/CP balance issue. I kind of feel like I'm going in circles here.

Eliahnus

Essentially you are saying you want to play with the three of you without anyone else.