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Cancel animation canceling
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Hey it is this thread again..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=ThZtwhYkKSs
Wrobel the lead combat dev himself stated in one of the interviews that he encourages animation cancelling and it is an integral part of the game. Now whether you agree with him or not is a different story. If you don't you better find another game..
He said that after multiple attempts to fix it. Sounded more like an excuse then an intended feature.rustic_potato wrote: »Hey it is this thread again..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=ThZtwhYkKSs
Wrobel the lead combat dev himself stated in one of the interviews that he encourages animation cancelling and it is an integral part of the game. Now whether you agree with him or not is a different story. If you don't you better find another game..
I am totally aware that it will not go away, but i will nevertheless not play like this - they said "play as you want" and I do. But I think it is a bad design decision and not the design is actually the reason to encourage that, but the inability or unwillingness to implement it correctly. So to me that is a bug declared to be a feature and nothing can convince me that it isn't, because it does not feel right to me.
Well the answer to both your statements is the same. You either accept it as a part of the game that you aren't interested in or give up on the game. Complaining and whining is not going to get you anywhere because fixing this would mean a lot of unnecessary dev resource spent on something futile.
I am not convinced that it would not be better the "correct" way, seen from how I would like it. If all would have to deal with the consequences of a long attack move, they would adapt to it and use it, when they are not in immediate danger to be hit, and use faster attacks, when they need to be ready to defend themselves - I do still think,that this would be a more tactical gameplay and much better combat, where not just "rotations" would be done by muscle memory, but actual thought put into the action, because it would matter more, what you do and when you do it.
And I am free to point that out and eventually make someone think about it - maybe or maybe not, I am still pointing it out.
The correct way is as it is now.
As he was communicating, it is part of the game, The choice is to get used to it or avoid it. It is not going away and that is a fact.
@ynimma
How swinging a sword in RL works is not completely relevant to fantasy type games. The recovery from swinging the sword is rarely part of the game.
Edited by idk on May 29, 2018 8:22AM0 -
nnargun✭✭✭✭SixVoltCar wrote: »SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
See paragraph 1.
But I don't see where anything we are discussing here is interfering with the game's rules. The rule is that you cannot fire more than one skill per second and everybody is following that rule. Noone's using AC to exploit poor game performance^^
The correct answer why you would wanna be limited by the game engine is to lower the skill ceiling. Which, to some extend, is okay. But don't make it slow and boring and so everyone can easily hit the big numbers without even practicing. Let us have some competition.Edited by nnargun on May 29, 2018 8:28AM[PC EU][GERMAN][ENGLISH][730~ CP]
Flawless Conquerer - vHoF HM - vAS+1 - vMoL - vCR
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Samjuel-EL - Orc - StamNB
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Draxyl - Argonian - Warden0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm also getting better of it just because I do it anyway but still it doesn't feel jolly, it does feel like I skipped game content through a bug and at the end of the day the excitement is just not there even if I "won" a duel because the server supported me that time rather than killing my game with a laggspike.
See my post above (shameless plug). It is not feasible within the game engine and to be frank, within a computer environment, without significant rework. Realistically, everyone who used a 2-H in the game, judging by the animations, should knock themselves down all the time, and be consistently off-balance.
Ideally, yes, I would like to see a game with things like realistic inertia for swords. However, then you would have to have consistent very low-latency responsiveness from the entire computer network. Or turn-based combat.
I can add to your added real-life situation that there are still techniques for conserving momentum and going from one move into another more or less smoothly when fighting. In a sense that is what animation cancelling *does*. It just doesn´t do it in a very realistic fashion.Edited by MaleAmazon on May 29, 2018 8:38AM0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭SixVoltCar wrote: »SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
See paragraph 1.
But I don't see where anything we are discussing here is interfering with the game's rules. The rule is that you cannot fire more than one skill per second and everybody is following that rule. Noone's using AC to exploit poor game performance^^
The correct answer why you would wanna be limited by the game engine is to lower the skill ceiling. Which, to some extend, is okay. But don't make it slow and boring and so everyone can easily hit the big numbers without even practicing. Let us have some competition.
There is a global cool down on ALL skills,however light and heavy attacks are on a different cool down.Also believe synergies are as well,but could be mistaken.So they are not using more than 1 skill per second.0 -
nnargun✭✭✭✭MehrunesFlagon wrote: »SixVoltCar wrote: »SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
See paragraph 1.
But I don't see where anything we are discussing here is interfering with the game's rules. The rule is that you cannot fire more than one skill per second and everybody is following that rule. Noone's using AC to exploit poor game performance^^
The correct answer why you would wanna be limited by the game engine is to lower the skill ceiling. Which, to some extend, is okay. But don't make it slow and boring and so everyone can easily hit the big numbers without even practicing. Let us have some competition.
There is a global cool down on ALL skills,however light and heavy attacks are on a different cool down.Also believe synergies are as well,but could be mistaken.So they are not using more than 1 skill per second.
That's what I'm saying. Nobody is bending any rules. Sure there are different cooldowns enabling you to weave LA+skill. But that is still not possible in less than a second. You just gotta accept LA+skill as the skill, whereas the skill itself is only part of the story in this game. Deal with it.
The only thing I would consider questionable is hiding animations in PVP so your opponent cannot see what you are firing at them. But those are totally two different issues. Arguably deriving from the same mechanic but different issues.Edited by nnargun on May 29, 2018 8:43AM[PC EU][GERMAN][ENGLISH][730~ CP]
Flawless Conquerer - vHoF HM - vAS+1 - vMoL - vCR
the Kuhn - Dunmer - MagNB
Samjuel-EL - Orc - StamNB
Son Hala - Altmer - MagSorc
Draxyl - Argonian - Warden0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »TheRealSniker wrote: »TheRealSniker wrote: »animation cancelling has been in every game ive ever played before, doesnt matter if it was singleplayer, multiplayer or an MMO.
this post is filled with L2P issues
That it was always this way is an argument put forward by those, who never contribute to any significant change to the better.TheRealSniker wrote: »animation cancelling has been in every game ive ever played before, doesnt matter if it was singleplayer, multiplayer or an MMO.
this post is filled with L2P issues
That it was always this way is an argument put forward by those, who never contribute to any significant change to the better.
There is no making anything better by disabling a game mechanic that differentiates a good from a bad player
Animation cancelling makes this already slow combat system just a bit more exciting and something to brag about when doing rotations
player ability vs. character abilities - I said it before,that is not roleplay, if a player's abilities govern the outcome and not a character's abilities. It is designed like this - in an game coming from the RPG genre - bad enough that they did it like that. But then have animations, which mean nothing, because they can be canceled so that one does not even see what is happening, even worse. It is bad design, simple as that - it might be MMO specific, but it is so against where TES is coming from.
Like I mentioned before no one is forcing you to animation cancel.. You can complete 90% of the game without even weaving attacks. If you want to play the MMO side of the game you have to accept the MMO aspects of the game too.
Not really interested into pvp in this game - I just suck at it, to be honest and I am far too slow without a gaming mouse and a very high ping - so yeah, pvp is not for me in this game, too twitchy for my liking,requires special hardware and I do not like the way it is implemented as well.0 -
MehrunesFlagon✭✭✭✭✭
✭AS far as hiding the animations.It really doesn't completely remove them.It doers shorten them however.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wonder how many other players won't even bother pvping because we can't compete with these rediculous deviencies
You actually don’t need to be that good at it to PvP, due to a latency of 270-350 from playing from Asia, and jsut because I don’t care to set up my keybinds to be ultra competitive with ani cancels, I consider myself to be fairly awful at it and do just fine in PvP. The only ac I do is basic like reverse slice cancelling but it’s more like light attack weaving, I rarely bother with bash cancelling everything like the super competitive guys do (also my mouse doesn’t have many buttons and it’s awkward) Any other ac that occurs is jsut by accident. Way more important than AC is light attack weaving and knowing your rotation, that is enough to get you through any PvE content and to be highly competitive in PvP. You’d run into issues with (I’m guessing) less than 10% of the PvP player base if you don’t really bother with AC. Most people don’t do it that well or at all.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wonder how many other players won't even bother pvping because we can't compete with these rediculous deviencies
You actually don’t need to be that good at it to PvP, due to a latency of 270-350 from playing from Asia, and jsut because I don’t care to set up my keybinds to be ultra competitive with ani cancels, I consider myself to be fairly awful at it and do just fine in PvP. The only ac I do is basic like reverse slice cancelling but it’s more like light attack weaving, I rarely bother with bash cancelling everything like the super competitive guys do (also my mouse doesn’t have many buttons and it’s awkward) Any other ac that occurs is jsut by accident. Way more important than AC is light attack weaving and knowing your rotation, that is enough to get you through any PvE content and to be highly competitive in PvP. You’d run into issues with (I’m guessing) less than 10% of the PvP player base if you don’t really bother with AC. Most people don’t do it that well or at all.
Hm, that is about my latency currently - maybe I will give it another try then. Well, not really to pvp though, but I want to explore cyrrodil and the imperial city.Edited by Lysette on May 29, 2018 8:53AM0 -
Seri✭✭✭✭
Good thing that animation cancelling still won't allow you to use more than 1 skill per GCD, thus no increases in skill usage.SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
As for arguments about latency rather than 'actual skill' determining who wins, that will always be the case unless the game becomes turn-based _or_ the game is slowed for all clients to that of the slowest connection - this holds for every game type with 'active' combat from MMO to FPS to RTS.
EP CP160+ Templar, Sorc, NB
DC CP160+ Templar, Sorc, DK0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.
And you are completely and utterly wrong. I could educate you and cure your ignorance, just ask. It will take a min and a healthy read of which im sure you would have the patience for.
It is you thats wrong sorry but truth.Edited by DanteYoda on May 29, 2018 9:08AM0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...If you have no reflexes then animation cancelling is not the problem, it's you. because animation cancelling has nothing to do with how good your reflexes are but more about your muscle memory. I can animation cancel without looking at the monitor because muscle memory does all the work. Reflexes are another thing. You could have the best reflexes in the world i don't care but if you don't practice the necessary routine to aid those reflexes you will die simple as that.
AC is what differentiates the bad from the moderate and the good. It is a very special mechanic in many different games for those who want to strive to be above the rest. If everybody was the same it would still not matter because there are always ways good players find to be competitive, then there would not be any excuses for bad players. Then what?
BS so many other mmo's have banned AC as an exploit as it pushes the gamers damage up far beyond what the game was designed to do.. just because its here and allowed doesn't change that its an exploit..
You literally are teaching the games population to exploit to pull more damage in dungeons.. In other mmos you guys would be banned and this "fixed"...
Yeah, that is as well how I see it - it is lazy of ZOS to call it a feature, when it is a bug. It just supports this button mashing, which is called "combat" in ESO. No trade-off whatsoever for choosing one more complex move over a block and the other way round - mindless button mashing, twitchy and hard to do for anyone, who is not near the server location as well.
1. That would punish all players with ping > 600, of which I frequently get ping spikes that high. Use an ability, ping jumps up to 600+, I get one shot because I was stuck in my ability's animation from over a second ago.
2. No, you don't need to be in the US to use animation cancelling. I live in Australia, and frequently get a ping of 300-350ms, and I have no issues using animation cancelling. This is either a personal or a L2P issue, if you can't get the hang of animation cancelling. Simple as that.
Animation canceling already punishes customers with 600 ping times so how would it differ... Love to see a video of you animation canceling with a 350 ping time.. I'm Aussie as well and i must constantly press my skills multiple times and when i shoot my light attack between skills nothing happens at those pings constantly.. the servers just do not register fast weaving at 300 ping..
And yes its an exploit.
You are right that the servers don't register fast animation cancelling, and that's the key to animation cancelling smoothly at our general ping ranges: slow yourself down until the servers start registering your inputs.
As for showing a video of me animation cancelling...
Granted this wasn't at 350 ping, as my internet was actually behaving itself today, it still shows that you can animation cancel / light attack weave at 250-300 ping. I do typically get 300-350 ping, especially in group dungeons where I have a full group, or in overland zones with other players. Trials my ping jumps up to 350-400.
Animation cancelling at this sort of ping is less about trying to do it as fast as possible, and more about experimenting with the speed of your rotation, to find a speed that both the servers actually register your inputs, and you yourself are comfortable with. On the PTS while testing a fully built stam sorc, I could speed my rotation up just a tad and the servers would still register my inputs, however it just didn't feel comfortable to do. Things would just be moving too quick, since I was used to a slightly slower rotation. So I've stuck with my slightly slower rotation.
Also note that I am not the best player, not by any stretch of the imagination. My DPS in that fight, and the entire dungeon essentially, is testament to that (generally pulled around 22-25k DPS). I made mistakes, I did go too fast at one point, I ran out of resources a few times. I am still perfecting my rotation, I am still learning about the combat system, I am still working on my build, and I am still working on getting the gear together (I was doing that fight with 5 Hunding's Rage (3 purple armour pieces, 2 gold daggers (Precise + Infused), 1 purple bow(Sharpened)), 5 Leviathan (3 purple jewelry pieces, 1 purple armour piece, 1 blue armour piece, only one armour piece in Divines), 2 Stormfist (both purple, both trash traits)). A player with a better build, better gear, and is more proficient in their rotation could likely do much better than me with the same ping.
It just comes down to finding what you are comfortable with. Sit at a 3 million target dummy, and practice your rotation, slowly to begin with. Practice hitting light attack, then immediately hitting a skill. Practice hitting a skill right before you bar swap. Get used to the flow of your rotation, then speed it up. Rinse, repeat. We all did this, we all started off mashing buttons, and we all eventually learned our rotations, then started perfecting them. Just practice.
Over 300 ping time standard skills and attacks start to mess up.. so slowing down makes no difference, as i need to hit my skills multiple times to get them to fire off without animation cancelling.0 -
DanteYoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
Because the games limitations are what determines power creep and breaking those mechanics causes all sorts of future issues to the game.. also makes the game lopsided in aspects like PvP and dungeons..Edited by DanteYoda on May 29, 2018 9:25AM0 -
nnargun✭✭✭✭SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
Because the games limitations are what determines power creep and breaking those mechanics causes all sorts of future issues to the game.. also makes the game lopsided in aspects like PvP and dungeons..
I can see how no CD at all would break the game. But being able to get better by practicing is not a bad thing and not what I'd consider evil power creep. And what do you mean it makes dungeons and PvP lopsided? Any game is unbalanced between experienced players who practice hard and noobs who don't wanna put effort in getting better. I wouldn't wanna play a game where I couldn't be better than others by perfecting my skills. What kind of stupid game would that be? Rolling dices or something?[PC EU][GERMAN][ENGLISH][730~ CP]
Flawless Conquerer - vHoF HM - vAS+1 - vMoL - vCR
the Kuhn - Dunmer - MagNB
Samjuel-EL - Orc - StamNB
Son Hala - Altmer - MagSorc
Draxyl - Argonian - Warden0 -
Seri✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...If you have no reflexes then animation cancelling is not the problem, it's you. because animation cancelling has nothing to do with how good your reflexes are but more about your muscle memory. I can animation cancel without looking at the monitor because muscle memory does all the work. Reflexes are another thing. You could have the best reflexes in the world i don't care but if you don't practice the necessary routine to aid those reflexes you will die simple as that.
AC is what differentiates the bad from the moderate and the good. It is a very special mechanic in many different games for those who want to strive to be above the rest. If everybody was the same it would still not matter because there are always ways good players find to be competitive, then there would not be any excuses for bad players. Then what?
BS so many other mmo's have banned AC as an exploit as it pushes the gamers damage up far beyond what the game was designed to do.. just because its here and allowed doesn't change that its an exploit..
You literally are teaching the games population to exploit to pull more damage in dungeons.. In other mmos you guys would be banned and this "fixed"...
Yeah, that is as well how I see it - it is lazy of ZOS to call it a feature, when it is a bug. It just supports this button mashing, which is called "combat" in ESO. No trade-off whatsoever for choosing one more complex move over a block and the other way round - mindless button mashing, twitchy and hard to do for anyone, who is not near the server location as well.
1. That would punish all players with ping > 600, of which I frequently get ping spikes that high. Use an ability, ping jumps up to 600+, I get one shot because I was stuck in my ability's animation from over a second ago.
2. No, you don't need to be in the US to use animation cancelling. I live in Australia, and frequently get a ping of 300-350ms, and I have no issues using animation cancelling. This is either a personal or a L2P issue, if you can't get the hang of animation cancelling. Simple as that.
Animation canceling already punishes customers with 600 ping times so how would it differ... Love to see a video of you animation canceling with a 350 ping time.. I'm Aussie as well and i must constantly press my skills multiple times and when i shoot my light attack between skills nothing happens at those pings constantly.. the servers just do not register fast weaving at 300 ping..
And yes its an exploit.
You are right that the servers don't register fast animation cancelling, and that's the key to animation cancelling smoothly at our general ping ranges: slow yourself down until the servers start registering your inputs.
As for showing a video of me animation cancelling...
Granted this wasn't at 350 ping, as my internet was actually behaving itself today, it still shows that you can animation cancel / light attack weave at 250-300 ping. I do typically get 300-350 ping, especially in group dungeons where I have a full group, or in overland zones with other players. Trials my ping jumps up to 350-400.
Animation cancelling at this sort of ping is less about trying to do it as fast as possible, and more about experimenting with the speed of your rotation, to find a speed that both the servers actually register your inputs, and you yourself are comfortable with. On the PTS while testing a fully built stam sorc, I could speed my rotation up just a tad and the servers would still register my inputs, however it just didn't feel comfortable to do. Things would just be moving too quick, since I was used to a slightly slower rotation. So I've stuck with my slightly slower rotation.
Also note that I am not the best player, not by any stretch of the imagination. My DPS in that fight, and the entire dungeon essentially, is testament to that (generally pulled around 22-25k DPS). I made mistakes, I did go too fast at one point, I ran out of resources a few times. I am still perfecting my rotation, I am still learning about the combat system, I am still working on my build, and I am still working on getting the gear together (I was doing that fight with 5 Hunding's Rage (3 purple armour pieces, 2 gold daggers (Precise + Infused), 1 purple bow(Sharpened)), 5 Leviathan (3 purple jewelry pieces, 1 purple armour piece, 1 blue armour piece, only one armour piece in Divines), 2 Stormfist (both purple, both trash traits)). A player with a better build, better gear, and is more proficient in their rotation could likely do much better than me with the same ping.
It just comes down to finding what you are comfortable with. Sit at a 3 million target dummy, and practice your rotation, slowly to begin with. Practice hitting light attack, then immediately hitting a skill. Practice hitting a skill right before you bar swap. Get used to the flow of your rotation, then speed it up. Rinse, repeat. We all did this, we all started off mashing buttons, and we all eventually learned our rotations, then started perfecting them. Just practice.
Over 300 ping time standard skills and attacks start to mess up.. so slowing down makes no difference, as i need to hit my skills multiple times to get them to fire off without animation cancelling.
Are you sure it's not that because of the latency it just feels like you need to mash?
https://youtu.be/r7Bt0KbaCXk
This was done without the use of any fancy MMO mouse features, with 400ms+ ping with a steady 'click->1' rotation. My bars do not show multiple key hits.EP CP160+ Templar, Sorc, NB
DC CP160+ Templar, Sorc, DK0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
Because the games limitations are what determines power creep and breaking those mechanics causes all sorts of future issues to the game.. also makes the game lopsided in aspects like PvP and dungeons..
I can see how no CD at all would break the game. But being able to get better by practicing is not a bad thing and not what I'd consider evil power creep. And what do you mean it makes dungeons and PvP lopsided? Any game is unbalanced between experienced players who practice hard and noobs who don't wanna put effort in getting better. I wouldn't wanna play a game where I couldn't be better than others by perfecting my skills. What kind of stupid game would that be? Rolling dices or something?
It would be roleplay -where the abilities of your characters matter and not your real world skills in rapidly pressing buttons and programming your gaming mouse. TES came from roleplay genre - that ESO is not much like it, is a shame.Edited by Lysette on May 29, 2018 9:43AM0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...If you have no reflexes then animation cancelling is not the problem, it's you. because animation cancelling has nothing to do with how good your reflexes are but more about your muscle memory. I can animation cancel without looking at the monitor because muscle memory does all the work. Reflexes are another thing. You could have the best reflexes in the world i don't care but if you don't practice the necessary routine to aid those reflexes you will die simple as that.
AC is what differentiates the bad from the moderate and the good. It is a very special mechanic in many different games for those who want to strive to be above the rest. If everybody was the same it would still not matter because there are always ways good players find to be competitive, then there would not be any excuses for bad players. Then what?
BS so many other mmo's have banned AC as an exploit as it pushes the gamers damage up far beyond what the game was designed to do.. just because its here and allowed doesn't change that its an exploit..
You literally are teaching the games population to exploit to pull more damage in dungeons.. In other mmos you guys would be banned and this "fixed"...
Yeah, that is as well how I see it - it is lazy of ZOS to call it a feature, when it is a bug. It just supports this button mashing, which is called "combat" in ESO. No trade-off whatsoever for choosing one more complex move over a block and the other way round - mindless button mashing, twitchy and hard to do for anyone, who is not near the server location as well.
1. That would punish all players with ping > 600, of which I frequently get ping spikes that high. Use an ability, ping jumps up to 600+, I get one shot because I was stuck in my ability's animation from over a second ago.
2. No, you don't need to be in the US to use animation cancelling. I live in Australia, and frequently get a ping of 300-350ms, and I have no issues using animation cancelling. This is either a personal or a L2P issue, if you can't get the hang of animation cancelling. Simple as that.
Animation canceling already punishes customers with 600 ping times so how would it differ... Love to see a video of you animation canceling with a 350 ping time.. I'm Aussie as well and i must constantly press my skills multiple times and when i shoot my light attack between skills nothing happens at those pings constantly.. the servers just do not register fast weaving at 300 ping..
And yes its an exploit.
You are right that the servers don't register fast animation cancelling, and that's the key to animation cancelling smoothly at our general ping ranges: slow yourself down until the servers start registering your inputs.
As for showing a video of me animation cancelling...
Granted this wasn't at 350 ping, as my internet was actually behaving itself today, it still shows that you can animation cancel / light attack weave at 250-300 ping. I do typically get 300-350 ping, especially in group dungeons where I have a full group, or in overland zones with other players. Trials my ping jumps up to 350-400.
Animation cancelling at this sort of ping is less about trying to do it as fast as possible, and more about experimenting with the speed of your rotation, to find a speed that both the servers actually register your inputs, and you yourself are comfortable with. On the PTS while testing a fully built stam sorc, I could speed my rotation up just a tad and the servers would still register my inputs, however it just didn't feel comfortable to do. Things would just be moving too quick, since I was used to a slightly slower rotation. So I've stuck with my slightly slower rotation.
Also note that I am not the best player, not by any stretch of the imagination. My DPS in that fight, and the entire dungeon essentially, is testament to that (generally pulled around 22-25k DPS). I made mistakes, I did go too fast at one point, I ran out of resources a few times. I am still perfecting my rotation, I am still learning about the combat system, I am still working on my build, and I am still working on getting the gear together (I was doing that fight with 5 Hunding's Rage (3 purple armour pieces, 2 gold daggers (Precise + Infused), 1 purple bow(Sharpened)), 5 Leviathan (3 purple jewelry pieces, 1 purple armour piece, 1 blue armour piece, only one armour piece in Divines), 2 Stormfist (both purple, both trash traits)). A player with a better build, better gear, and is more proficient in their rotation could likely do much better than me with the same ping.
It just comes down to finding what you are comfortable with. Sit at a 3 million target dummy, and practice your rotation, slowly to begin with. Practice hitting light attack, then immediately hitting a skill. Practice hitting a skill right before you bar swap. Get used to the flow of your rotation, then speed it up. Rinse, repeat. We all did this, we all started off mashing buttons, and we all eventually learned our rotations, then started perfecting them. Just practice.
Over 300 ping time standard skills and attacks start to mess up.. so slowing down makes no difference, as i need to hit my skills multiple times to get them to fire off without animation cancelling.
As Seri said, are you 100% sure that it is in fact your ping causing this? Because I have ran content through more or less any ping you can throw at me, up until 30k. Yes, I have "ran" veteran Selene's Web at 30k ping while my internet was having an absolute field day, I have 3 other people who can attest to that. I use "ran" because I don't think panicking not knowing whether I'm dead or alive counts as running the game, but nonetheless I have still participated in a veteran Selene's Web run at 30k ping.
Anything up until 600, I can use skills fine. 250 is great, 300-350 is where I usually sit, and 350-400 is just a tad off putting. 400-600, I have to have some faith that the game will take my inputs, and it usually does. Anything past 600, that's where I have to double cast abilities.Edited by jcm2606 on May 29, 2018 9:46AM0 -
nnargun✭✭✭✭SixVoltCar wrote: »People who are unsporting like the skill cap to go beyond actual skill, to the point where the GAME ENGINE and their latency become factors in whether or not they win-- they do this, because they want an advantage beyond the game rules, this makes it a form of exploit.
I oppose it in every game.
I am, of course, referring to increasing skill usage output by animation cancelling. The animation should be the cast speed and should not be cancelable while also achieving a successful skill use.
Why would you wanna be limited by the duration of the animation? I'd prefer my own capabilities to be the limit.
Because the games limitations are what determines power creep and breaking those mechanics causes all sorts of future issues to the game.. also makes the game lopsided in aspects like PvP and dungeons..
I can see how no CD at all would break the game. But being able to get better by practicing is not a bad thing and not what I'd consider evil power creep. And what do you mean it makes dungeons and PvP lopsided? Any game is unbalanced between experienced players who practice hard and noobs who don't wanna put effort in getting better. I wouldn't wanna play a game where I couldn't be better than others by perfecting my skills. What kind of stupid game would that be? Rolling dices or something?
It would be roleplay -where the abilities of your characters matter and not your real world skills in rapidly pressing buttons. TES came from roleplay genre - that ESO is not much like it, is a shame.
You can do plenty of RP in this game without ANY need to AC. Even most of the competetive content actually. You don't like that there is a competetive aspect of this game? Why? What does it exclude you (or the RPer in general) from that you need to achieve to be happy? And the emphasis here is on ACHIEVE. vTrial HM without skill? Just because your character is such a super shiny knight or something? To hell with that. You can play the content in normal mode and that should suffice.Edited by nnargun on May 29, 2018 9:51AM[PC EU][GERMAN][ENGLISH][730~ CP]
Flawless Conquerer - vHoF HM - vAS+1 - vMoL - vCR
the Kuhn - Dunmer - MagNB
Samjuel-EL - Orc - StamNB
Son Hala - Altmer - MagSorc
Draxyl - Argonian - Warden0 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭It would be roleplay -where the abilities of your characters matter and not your real world skills in rapidly pressing buttons. TES came from roleplay genre - that ESO is not much like it, is a shame.
TES has consistently moved away from tradidional dice-roll mechanics and towards player-controlled mechanics. I really like that. There are other turned-based games out there.Edited by MaleAmazon on May 29, 2018 9:46AM0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...If you have no reflexes then animation cancelling is not the problem, it's you. because animation cancelling has nothing to do with how good your reflexes are but more about your muscle memory. I can animation cancel without looking at the monitor because muscle memory does all the work. Reflexes are another thing. You could have the best reflexes in the world i don't care but if you don't practice the necessary routine to aid those reflexes you will die simple as that.
AC is what differentiates the bad from the moderate and the good. It is a very special mechanic in many different games for those who want to strive to be above the rest. If everybody was the same it would still not matter because there are always ways good players find to be competitive, then there would not be any excuses for bad players. Then what?
BS so many other mmo's have banned AC as an exploit as it pushes the gamers damage up far beyond what the game was designed to do.. just because its here and allowed doesn't change that its an exploit..
You literally are teaching the games population to exploit to pull more damage in dungeons.. In other mmos you guys would be banned and this "fixed"...
Yeah, that is as well how I see it - it is lazy of ZOS to call it a feature, when it is a bug. It just supports this button mashing, which is called "combat" in ESO. No trade-off whatsoever for choosing one more complex move over a block and the other way round - mindless button mashing, twitchy and hard to do for anyone, who is not near the server location as well.
1. That would punish all players with ping > 600, of which I frequently get ping spikes that high. Use an ability, ping jumps up to 600+, I get one shot because I was stuck in my ability's animation from over a second ago.
2. No, you don't need to be in the US to use animation cancelling. I live in Australia, and frequently get a ping of 300-350ms, and I have no issues using animation cancelling. This is either a personal or a L2P issue, if you can't get the hang of animation cancelling. Simple as that.
Animation canceling already punishes customers with 600 ping times so how would it differ... Love to see a video of you animation canceling with a 350 ping time.. I'm Aussie as well and i must constantly press my skills multiple times and when i shoot my light attack between skills nothing happens at those pings constantly.. the servers just do not register fast weaving at 300 ping..
And yes its an exploit.
You are right that the servers don't register fast animation cancelling, and that's the key to animation cancelling smoothly at our general ping ranges: slow yourself down until the servers start registering your inputs.
As for showing a video of me animation cancelling...
Granted this wasn't at 350 ping, as my internet was actually behaving itself today, it still shows that you can animation cancel / light attack weave at 250-300 ping. I do typically get 300-350 ping, especially in group dungeons where I have a full group, or in overland zones with other players. Trials my ping jumps up to 350-400.
Animation cancelling at this sort of ping is less about trying to do it as fast as possible, and more about experimenting with the speed of your rotation, to find a speed that both the servers actually register your inputs, and you yourself are comfortable with. On the PTS while testing a fully built stam sorc, I could speed my rotation up just a tad and the servers would still register my inputs, however it just didn't feel comfortable to do. Things would just be moving too quick, since I was used to a slightly slower rotation. So I've stuck with my slightly slower rotation.
Also note that I am not the best player, not by any stretch of the imagination. My DPS in that fight, and the entire dungeon essentially, is testament to that (generally pulled around 22-25k DPS). I made mistakes, I did go too fast at one point, I ran out of resources a few times. I am still perfecting my rotation, I am still learning about the combat system, I am still working on my build, and I am still working on getting the gear together (I was doing that fight with 5 Hunding's Rage (3 purple armour pieces, 2 gold daggers (Precise + Infused), 1 purple bow(Sharpened)), 5 Leviathan (3 purple jewelry pieces, 1 purple armour piece, 1 blue armour piece, only one armour piece in Divines), 2 Stormfist (both purple, both trash traits)). A player with a better build, better gear, and is more proficient in their rotation could likely do much better than me with the same ping.
It just comes down to finding what you are comfortable with. Sit at a 3 million target dummy, and practice your rotation, slowly to begin with. Practice hitting light attack, then immediately hitting a skill. Practice hitting a skill right before you bar swap. Get used to the flow of your rotation, then speed it up. Rinse, repeat. We all did this, we all started off mashing buttons, and we all eventually learned our rotations, then started perfecting them. Just practice.
Over 300 ping time standard skills and attacks start to mess up.. so slowing down makes no difference, as i need to hit my skills multiple times to get them to fire off without animation cancelling.
As Seri said, are you 100% sure that it is in fact your ping causing this? Because I have ran content through more or less any ping you can throw at me, up until 30k. Yes, I have "ran" veteran Selene's Web at 30k ping while my internet was having an absolute field day, I have 3 other people who can attest to that. I use "ran" because I don't think panicking not knowing whether I'm dead or alive counts as running the game, but nonetheless I have still participated in a veteran Selene's Web run at 30k ping.
Anything up until 600, I can use skills fine. 250 is great, 300-350 is where I usually sit, and 350-400 is just a tad off putting. 400-600, I have to have some faith that the game will take my inputs, and it usually does. Anything past 600, that's where I have to double cast abilities.
I guess you mean 3k ping - a 30k ping would be a delay by half a minute - you would be dead by then in any combat situation.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »
In other games such as mmorpgs animation canceling is considered an exploit as it breaks the animation Guildwars 2 had animation canceling and devs there stopped it immediately as it was destroying pvp and dungeons..
Its not legitimate at all just because ESO devs allow it doesn't make it right.. but forcing the whole population to do this is wrong especially when it very much is an exploit in game mechanics.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...
So some exploits are ok but others aren't.. wow..
Its not a god damn exploit. Jesus christ.
I just explained how it is one.. jesus christ.Learning to do this is like having to cut my grass... This is not fun to me nor is cutting my grass.. I feel like I'm forced to learn this or my options of enjoying this game are limited. I love this game and everything it offers aside from this forced grass cutting.
You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.
But do you know what this does.. It forces people like me to just rally for casual pve content from the Devs over PvP or vet content.. And slowly this will decay the content requesting from PvP or end game elites.
Not correct. Considering AC has been around for more than 4 years it is an empty statement to say it is decaying anything.
Plenty of people have cleared all vet trials without AC. Most that have cleared HM of all trials do not AC except for weaving a light attack and when they are bar swapping anyhow.
Granted, it seems you are a little salty about something, but you have yet to actually provide anything substantial to back up your the generalizations you are making.I totally agree these exploits need to go.. and it would help with the power creep as well..
And it is clearly not an exploit by any stretch of the imagination. Surprised someone tries to claim AC is an exploit when the developers themselves have said it is legit.
Of course its an exploit.. you are breaking the game built in animation to put out more damage in a quicker time.. When you break a game animation why wouldn't it be considered an exploit..
Just because everyone considers it great and needed in the min maxers groups doesn't mean its not an exploit anymore than the xbox dungeon exploits.. both are breaking game mechanics for gains...If you have no reflexes then animation cancelling is not the problem, it's you. because animation cancelling has nothing to do with how good your reflexes are but more about your muscle memory. I can animation cancel without looking at the monitor because muscle memory does all the work. Reflexes are another thing. You could have the best reflexes in the world i don't care but if you don't practice the necessary routine to aid those reflexes you will die simple as that.
AC is what differentiates the bad from the moderate and the good. It is a very special mechanic in many different games for those who want to strive to be above the rest. If everybody was the same it would still not matter because there are always ways good players find to be competitive, then there would not be any excuses for bad players. Then what?
BS so many other mmo's have banned AC as an exploit as it pushes the gamers damage up far beyond what the game was designed to do.. just because its here and allowed doesn't change that its an exploit..
You literally are teaching the games population to exploit to pull more damage in dungeons.. In other mmos you guys would be banned and this "fixed"...
Yeah, that is as well how I see it - it is lazy of ZOS to call it a feature, when it is a bug. It just supports this button mashing, which is called "combat" in ESO. No trade-off whatsoever for choosing one more complex move over a block and the other way round - mindless button mashing, twitchy and hard to do for anyone, who is not near the server location as well.
1. That would punish all players with ping > 600, of which I frequently get ping spikes that high. Use an ability, ping jumps up to 600+, I get one shot because I was stuck in my ability's animation from over a second ago.
2. No, you don't need to be in the US to use animation cancelling. I live in Australia, and frequently get a ping of 300-350ms, and I have no issues using animation cancelling. This is either a personal or a L2P issue, if you can't get the hang of animation cancelling. Simple as that.
Animation canceling already punishes customers with 600 ping times so how would it differ... Love to see a video of you animation canceling with a 350 ping time.. I'm Aussie as well and i must constantly press my skills multiple times and when i shoot my light attack between skills nothing happens at those pings constantly.. the servers just do not register fast weaving at 300 ping..
And yes its an exploit.
You are right that the servers don't register fast animation cancelling, and that's the key to animation cancelling smoothly at our general ping ranges: slow yourself down until the servers start registering your inputs.
As for showing a video of me animation cancelling...
Granted this wasn't at 350 ping, as my internet was actually behaving itself today, it still shows that you can animation cancel / light attack weave at 250-300 ping. I do typically get 300-350 ping, especially in group dungeons where I have a full group, or in overland zones with other players. Trials my ping jumps up to 350-400.
Animation cancelling at this sort of ping is less about trying to do it as fast as possible, and more about experimenting with the speed of your rotation, to find a speed that both the servers actually register your inputs, and you yourself are comfortable with. On the PTS while testing a fully built stam sorc, I could speed my rotation up just a tad and the servers would still register my inputs, however it just didn't feel comfortable to do. Things would just be moving too quick, since I was used to a slightly slower rotation. So I've stuck with my slightly slower rotation.
Also note that I am not the best player, not by any stretch of the imagination. My DPS in that fight, and the entire dungeon essentially, is testament to that (generally pulled around 22-25k DPS). I made mistakes, I did go too fast at one point, I ran out of resources a few times. I am still perfecting my rotation, I am still learning about the combat system, I am still working on my build, and I am still working on getting the gear together (I was doing that fight with 5 Hunding's Rage (3 purple armour pieces, 2 gold daggers (Precise + Infused), 1 purple bow(Sharpened)), 5 Leviathan (3 purple jewelry pieces, 1 purple armour piece, 1 blue armour piece, only one armour piece in Divines), 2 Stormfist (both purple, both trash traits)). A player with a better build, better gear, and is more proficient in their rotation could likely do much better than me with the same ping.
It just comes down to finding what you are comfortable with. Sit at a 3 million target dummy, and practice your rotation, slowly to begin with. Practice hitting light attack, then immediately hitting a skill. Practice hitting a skill right before you bar swap. Get used to the flow of your rotation, then speed it up. Rinse, repeat. We all did this, we all started off mashing buttons, and we all eventually learned our rotations, then started perfecting them. Just practice.
Over 300 ping time standard skills and attacks start to mess up.. so slowing down makes no difference, as i need to hit my skills multiple times to get them to fire off without animation cancelling.
As Seri said, are you 100% sure that it is in fact your ping causing this? Because I have ran content through more or less any ping you can throw at me, up until 30k. Yes, I have "ran" veteran Selene's Web at 30k ping while my internet was having an absolute field day, I have 3 other people who can attest to that. I use "ran" because I don't think panicking not knowing whether I'm dead or alive counts as running the game, but nonetheless I have still participated in a veteran Selene's Web run at 30k ping.
Anything up until 600, I can use skills fine. 250 is great, 300-350 is where I usually sit, and 350-400 is just a tad off putting. 400-600, I have to have some faith that the game will take my inputs, and it usually does. Anything past 600, that's where I have to double cast abilities.
I guess you mean 3k ping - a 30k ping would be a delay by half a minute - you would be dead by then in any combat situation.
No, I meant 30k. It was an absolute miracle I survived, I still have no clue how kek. The ping was around 3-5k, with intermittent spikes in the 20-30k range.Edited by jcm2606 on May 29, 2018 9:50AM0 -
MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »I don't care for AC one way or another, but why don't players just spend a few hours learning it rather than making daily threads on the topic?
becasue maybe. just maybe. we have tried and can't do it? its a concept. not everyone can do everything. not everyone has reflexes. not every can develop needed muscle memory. not every is exactly the same with exact same ability ceiling.
If that's the case, then you don't need it. You can still complete all content without it.
That's like asking Valve to artificially slow down everyone's reflexes in CS:GO so the slower players can compete with the more skilled ones.
Funny you should say that. Lowering a skill requirement so the game would be more accessable to a wider audience is exactly what they've been doing since CS 1.6Edited by inf.toniceb17_ESO on May 29, 2018 9:54AM0 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Well, it would bother me, if I would want to PvP, because I think, it is just a very lazy and faulty implementation, which was raised to a feature, because ZOS could not fix it. But I am not PvPing and I do as well no group content, so be it. It is one of the reasons though, that I do not do any of the group content - because people would force me to learn it, and I refuse. To me that is a bug and not a feature.
Lysette, you do not have to cancel the animations of all of your skills to do good DPS. Also, attack weaving is merely ESO’s active equivalent of passive auto-attacking in other MMOs. It’s not a bug, it’s not difficult to do, and it’s also not the equivalent of an insta-30k+ DPS button.
Did a dev say that? I see the auto attack arguement a lot, but I haven't been able to find a source.
Anyone who understands how the game is designed and has experience with mmos understands this. Its not something that needs confirmation. Its plain as day. This game obeys a great deal of mmo conventions, its not a mystery.
You can't assume, SWtOR doesn't have auto attacks, neither does Tera, Skyforge, or GW2. This seems more like a byproduct of the priority system. If they wanted auto attacks, it would have been easy enough to have that happen.
I was asking a legitimate question, and I sense a fair amount of anger in your reply, but I'm not sure why. I would like an answer to this question I've been trying to answer since I started playing, and I thought someone would have the answer.0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I understand this is as dead of a horse as it can get. What I don't get with all these discussions over the years: Why should it get removed? Because some players can't do it, simply do not like it, or just want the same results as as good player with less effort?
The OP was honest at least - he doesn't like it, and he wants it removed so he can have elite DPS and be competetiive in PvE and PvP. While I understand it's frustrating if you feel forced to do something you don't like, ESO actually doesn't force you to do anything. You can reach 15 to 25k DPS just by laying down DoTs properly, keeping your buffs up, and heavy attacking. That's enough for 99% of the game content. AC is helpful, but it's not the difference between a bad DD and a good DD. DPS is all about having a solid rotation, as in using skills in a way that makes sense. The constant dislike for weaving and AC is just a scapegoat - in reality people just want to get everything done effortless.
As for PvP, AC is helpful there, no doubt - but it's not the difference between being successful or not. Understanding how your class works, having awareness and anticipation, the concept of LoS, and the ability to "read" a battle have all far greater impact then being able to AC and weave perfectly.
At this point removing AC is not going to happen because you'd need to build the combat system completely new - skill cast times would need to get homogenized, animations would need to be adjusted too, and in the end it would a game that's a lot less fun for many.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hm, I think it is not about wanting it easy, at least I am not in for that, but I want it to look right and make sense - a lot gets out of sync when cancelling, sound is not following the action properly anymore, it is a mess - and that does not feel right at all. And the other thing for me is that I think it would be a more tactical gameplay with it fixed - it will not happen, I know that - but still I can express my feeling about it.
Otherwise, Feanor, valid arguments of yours.Edited by Lysette on May 29, 2018 10:42AM0 -
Aurielle✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »Well, it would bother me, if I would want to PvP, because I think, it is just a very lazy and faulty implementation, which was raised to a feature, because ZOS could not fix it. But I am not PvPing and I do as well no group content, so be it. It is one of the reasons though, that I do not do any of the group content - because people would force me to learn it, and I refuse. To me that is a bug and not a feature.
Lysette, you do not have to cancel the animations of all of your skills to do good DPS. Also, attack weaving is merely ESO’s active equivalent of passive auto-attacking in other MMOs. It’s not a bug, it’s not difficult to do, and it’s also not the equivalent of an insta-30k+ DPS button.
Well, I don't like it, I wait for the animation to play and then I do the next move - I give a damn on good dps, I want it to look nicely and one motion after the other not all in one causing a visual mess.
I also see all of my skill animations play out on my PVE DPS character with light attack weaving (just not Volatile Familiar, which I bar-swap cancel). It’s not a “visual mess.” I do 35k DPS self-buffed on target dummies using my dungeon/trial setup when I’m blessed with good crit RNG, and 32-33k when I’m not.
Repeat after me: “I don’t need to cancel the animations of my skills to do competent DPS, so I don’t need to use animation cancelling as a scapegoat to explain why I’m ‘barred’ from endgame content”
I have no interest in end game content either - end game is for me - end of game - and I will move on.
You suggested earlier that animation cancelling prohibits you from doing group content (it doesn’t, FYI). If you have no interest in end game content, why are you making false claims about an aspect of ESO’s combat system that doesn’t affect you anyway?
Because things which are wrong are wrong, regardless if they effect me or not - to me that is a bug declared to be a feature, because ZOS could not fix it properly.And this does not change, regardless if it effects me or not.
There is nothing wrong with animation cancelling! You do not need to cancel the animations of your skills to deal 30k+ DPS! You cannot bypass the global cooldown with animation cancelling! You do need to cancel animations to dodge roll out of AOE, taunt a boss while blocking, stop casting Jesus Beam to throw out BoL, etc. and the game would be broken without it.
It.
Is.
Not.
A.
Bug.
Agree it should be canceble. But since the animation is cancelled, the attack didn't happen, so the damage should be cancelled also, Everybody happy.
The skill is cast instantly, and you ALWAYS see the first part of the animation (it’s a millisecond or two). If you try to cancel the skill before it is cast and the initial part of the animation plays out, the whole ability will be cancelled. When people cancel skill animations, they’re cancelling the recovery/flourish/follow-through part of the animation.
Two RL scenarios to demonstrate this to you:
1. A person quickly draws a pistol, fires at a target, twirls the pistol on his finger, and reholsters it.
2. The same person quickly draws the pistol again, fires at a target, and does nothing further.
In the second scenario, that damage still occurs irrespective of the absent flourish. The bullet does not magically cease to exist because we did not see the shooter twirl the pistol on his finger and reholster it.
Anyway, this is a MOOT FREAKING POINT, because as I keep explaining over and over again, hardly anyone out there is cancelling the recovery animations of their skills with block. People cancel the recovery animations of their LIGHT ATTACKS (often unintentionally, due to the nature of the ability priority system) and they may cancel the recovery animation of a particularly long skill at the end of a rotation with bar swap. With that occasional barswap cancel, you’re still seeing the vast majority of your skill animations playing out.
You do NOT need to cancel every skill to do good DPS, and hardly ANYONE cancels every skill. I’m so tired of saying this.
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jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hm, I think it is not about wanting it easy, at least I am not in for that, but I want it to look right and make sense - a lot gets out of sync when cancelling, sound is not following the action properly anymore, it is a mess - and that does not feel right at all. And the other thing for me is that I think it would be a more tactical gameplay with it fixed - it will not happen, I know that - but still I can express my feeling about it.
Otherwise, Feanor, valid arguments of yours.
Animations obviously get out of sync, due to the fact that it is animation cancelling, though sounds are still in sync. If you can, go back a few pages and watch my video. Keep an eye out for whenever I light attack weave with the bow, specifically when I light attack weave into Poison Injection. You can hear the light attack land, then immediately after you hear Poison Injection land. Same thing happens for all skills / light attacks.0 -
eric1961Soul Shriven
No it isn't. AC is an exploit that some players are good at and some are not. The worst part of AC is that it has made ESO into a simple numbers game, so instead of simply having fun you are checking individual dps to make sure that a member of the group isn't inadvertently nerfing your chance of epic lootz. AC needs to be removed completely but i doubt that ZOS will do it as they have a pretty poor track record of fixing stuff that has been around for awhile.
I personally cannot compete with those that are good at AC as i am 57 years old and have arthritis in my hands. Two a second clicks play havoc with my finger joints. This means that I am unable to take part in most veteran content or PvP. When you consider that DAoC is still held up today as the best PvP experience that has ever been designed in an MMO I find it remarkable that nobody else has managed to copy it correctly but here is a hint, it didn't have AC, it did have /face commands that kept you facing your opponent and it did have collision detection, all of which put everyone on a level playing field. There is a reason it is still the best MMO PvP around.2 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wonder how many other players won't even bother pvping because we can't compete with these rediculous deviencies
You actually don’t need to be that good at it to PvP, due to a latency of 270-350 from playing from Asia, and jsut because I don’t care to set up my keybinds to be ultra competitive with ani cancels, I consider myself to be fairly awful at it and do just fine in PvP. The only ac I do is basic like reverse slice cancelling but it’s more like light attack weaving, I rarely bother with bash cancelling everything like the super competitive guys do (also my mouse doesn’t have many buttons and it’s awkward) Any other ac that occurs is jsut by accident. Way more important than AC is light attack weaving and knowing your rotation, that is enough to get you through any PvE content and to be highly competitive in PvP. You’d run into issues with (I’m guessing) less than 10% of the PvP player base if you don’t really bother with AC. Most people don’t do it that well or at all.
Hm, that is about my latency currently - maybe I will give it another try then. Well, not really to pvp though, but I want to explore cyrrodil and the imperial city.
Absolutely, PvP has the steepest learning curve in this game hands down. It’s punishing and you really can’t mind the frustration of dying ALOT for A LONG time. Give it a few months if you have someone really good teaching you and a year if you’re learning on your own, to start getting decent.0 -
jcm2606✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
No it isn't. AC is an exploit that some players are good at and some are not. The worst part of AC is that it has made ESO into a simple numbers game, so instead of simply having fun you are checking individual dps to make sure that a member of the group isn't inadvertently nerfing your chance of epic lootz. AC needs to be removed completely but i doubt that ZOS will do it as they have a pretty poor track record of fixing stuff that has been around for awhile.
I personally cannot compete with those that are good at AC as i am 57 years old and have arthritis in my hands. Two a second clicks play havoc with my finger joints. This means that I am unable to take part in most veteran content or PvP. When you consider that DAoC is still held up today as the best PvP experience that has ever been designed in an MMO I find it remarkable that nobody else has managed to copy it correctly but here is a hint, it didn't have AC, it did have /face commands that kept you facing your opponent and it did have collision detection, all of which put everyone on a level playing field. There is a reason it is still the best MMO PvP around.
Use a heavy attack build. I've said this, what, 2 times now? 3? If you cannot get the hang of light attack weaving / animation cancelling, swap to a build that uses a slower rotation. Swap to a heavy attack build. Stamina DK & Magicka Pet Sorc are both good for heavy attack builds.
And, again, as has been said many times in the thread, and I predict will be reiterated to death: animation cancelling is not an exploit. Get that out of your heads, people!
Zenimax implemented the priority system for a reason. They wanted ESO's combat tot be active, reactive, and responsive. They wanted you to have to actively block & dodge incoming attacks. They wanted you to actively light attack as a basic attack. They wanted youe to actively heavy attack to gain resources.
This sort of active combat system, where you react to changing combat conditions, can only be successful if combat is responsive. Combat cannot be responsive when you cannot block an incoming attack when necessary because you're sitting in the middle of the recovery portion of an animation. You must be able to throw up block immediately, else you risk getting one-shot by a boss, or your risk being unable to react to an unpredictable player.
Removing the priority system would mean that you could not immediately block an incoming attack. It would mean that players would be stuck within the entire animation for every action. It would make the combat system slow, monotonous, and overall unresponsive.
And about ESO becoming a numbers game. It's an MMO. All MMO's devolve into a numbers game at end game. You'll find the same in any MMO.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXNH5fuxXPo