Cancel animation canceling

nnargun

Linaleah wrote: »

honestly? i hate it. i hate that its a thing, i hate that its necessary, i hate how twitchy it makes combat. and I'm seriously considering writing a thank you post to ZoS for NOT tuning questing/normal difficulty content to require it and asking them to NOT listen to the "game is too easy!" crowd and keep it as is.

do I wish i could do end game content? yes. yes I do. but... at least the rest of the game can be done without it.

With your 12k DPS and panicking when encountering overland mobs you are far far faaaaar away from being in the position to rant about this.

And to the person who said it's like cutting grass...it's really not. Cutting grass doesn't give you an edge in a competitive environment. It's more like waxing your ski or something. Annoying for some but an exciting aspect of the sports for others.

SASQUATCH0

Linaleah wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't care for AC one way or another, but why don't players just spend a few hours learning it rather than making daily threads on the topic?

becasue maybe. just maybe. we have tried and can't do it? its a concept. not everyone can do everything. not everyone has reflexes. not every can develop needed muscle memory. not every is exactly the same with exact same ability ceiling.

If that's the case, then you don't need it. You can still complete all content without it.

That's like asking Valve to artificially slow down everyone's reflexes in CS:GO so the slower players can compete with the more skilled ones.

the point is - I'm so very tired of players going "why don't you just spend a few hours learning how to do it?"

and a bit of wistful thinking on occasion. other games either don't have this, or have basic attacks firing off automatically.

You’re right, this is in an mmo.

Raraaku

Aurielle wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

The Devs are clearly in support of weaving; and I'm fine with that. Luckily there are just as many, if not more, guilds/groups out there who don't require their DPS to master weaving in order to participate in their trial/dungeon runs, which is great. The only players I can think of who would require expertise in such a skill to run with them are those that wish to do speedruns/leaderboards challenges. I also think it's possible to achieve the appropriate DPS numbers for virtually all content that's available within the game without needing to be proficient at weaving.

What I don't think is appropriate is the devs not even mentioning a mechanic, that they've clearly embraced within the game. I had not even heard of weaving until I came to the forums, and even then I had to do independent research to even find out what weaving really is and how it works. That's unacceptable. They need to be upfront with their own mechanics and at least touch on the concept early in-game somehow, heck even a load screen tip would be nice.

I think that's what upsets me the most, it's that they're relying on their own customers teach other customers on a skill that they have clearly shown to be at least a somewhat important skill to have. It's one thing if weaving pertains to just a support role such as tanking or healing, but DPS is by far the most popular role of just about any MMO and weaving is important for the role in order to further boost their damage.

Seriously, it's like going to a delicious restaurant only to be provided a menu with no entree section and the restaurant has its regulars explain the entree selections because you wouldn't know what's available otherwise.

That tip is only displayed when level 41 is reached, correct? I admittedly stopped reading those after level 7 as I want to collect my attribute and skill point and move on.

Put it on a loading screen so that the message can be sent consistently and not displayed only once in which a player, like myself, could easily miss it. Or more beneficially, create some sort of tutorial within the game, perhaps the beginning tutorial or elsewhere, that is a more involved introduction to the concept rather than a 10 word sentence that pops up once in-game.

Aurielle

SASQUATCH0 wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I don't care for AC one way or another, but why don't players just spend a few hours learning it rather than making daily threads on the topic?

becasue maybe. just maybe. we have tried and can't do it? its a concept. not everyone can do everything. not everyone has reflexes. not every can develop needed muscle memory. not every is exactly the same with exact same ability ceiling.

If that's the case, then you don't need it. You can still complete all content without it.

That's like asking Valve to artificially slow down everyone's reflexes in CS:GO so the slower players can compete with the more skilled ones.

the point is - I'm so very tired of players going "why don't you just spend a few hours learning how to do it?"

and a bit of wistful thinking on occasion. other games either don't have this, or have basic attacks firing off automatically.

You’re right, this is in an mmo.

This is an action MMO that has attempted to stay true to the active combat style of the Elder Scrolls franchise from the very beginning. The developers specifically did NOT want auto attacks in this game:

"There is no “auto-attack” and combat is very rewarding because of that because it keeps you immersed in the world and actively fighting your target just like Skyrim, Oblivion, Morrowind and all the Elder Scrolls games." - Brian Wheeler

https://segmentnext.com/2013/12/23/many-details-elder-scrolls-online-pvp-revealed-developer/

If anyone wants an easy MMO with auto-attacks, WoW is thisaway and LOTRO is thataway.

Aurielle

Raraaku wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

The Devs are clearly in support of weaving; and I'm fine with that. Luckily there are just as many, if not more, guilds/groups out there who don't require their DPS to master weaving in order to participate in their trial/dungeon runs, which is great. The only players I can think of who would require expertise in such a skill to run with them are those that wish to do speedruns/leaderboards challenges. I also think it's possible to achieve the appropriate DPS numbers for virtually all content that's available within the game without needing to be proficient at weaving.

What I don't think is appropriate is the devs not even mentioning a mechanic, that they've clearly embraced within the game. I had not even heard of weaving until I came to the forums, and even then I had to do independent research to even find out what weaving really is and how it works. That's unacceptable. They need to be upfront with their own mechanics and at least touch on the concept early in-game somehow, heck even a load screen tip would be nice.

I think that's what upsets me the most, it's that they're relying on their own customers teach other customers on a skill that they have clearly shown to be at least a somewhat important skill to have. It's one thing if weaving pertains to just a support role such as tanking or healing, but DPS is by far the most popular role of just about any MMO and weaving is important for the role in order to further boost their damage.

Seriously, it's like going to a delicious restaurant only to be provided a menu with no entree section and the restaurant has its regulars explain the entree selections because you wouldn't know what's available otherwise.

That tip is only displayed when level 41 is reached, correct? I admittedly stopped reading those after level 7 as I want to collect my attribute and skill point and move on.

Put it on a loading screen so that the message can be sent consistently and not displayed only once in which a player, like myself, could easily miss it. Or more beneficially, create some sort of tutorial within the game, perhaps the beginning tutorial or elsewhere, that is a more involved introduction to the concept rather than a 10 word sentence that pops up once in-game.

They can't win. Someone else will come along and insist that loading screen tips are not enough, and that they need the game to hold their hand and guide them through a detailed tutorial.

Sergykid

Raraaku wrote: »

Put it on a loading screen so that the message

this is a great idea, and i would love to see lots of information that it's actually not available in the game.

Pheefs

idk wrote: »

You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.

That would be fine so long as no content outside PvP required you to use AC to complete or succeed...
Not so much though, huh?

Raraaku

Aurielle wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Raraaku wrote: »

The Devs are clearly in support of weaving; and I'm fine with that. Luckily there are just as many, if not more, guilds/groups out there who don't require their DPS to master weaving in order to participate in their trial/dungeon runs, which is great. The only players I can think of who would require expertise in such a skill to run with them are those that wish to do speedruns/leaderboards challenges. I also think it's possible to achieve the appropriate DPS numbers for virtually all content that's available within the game without needing to be proficient at weaving.

What I don't think is appropriate is the devs not even mentioning a mechanic, that they've clearly embraced within the game. I had not even heard of weaving until I came to the forums, and even then I had to do independent research to even find out what weaving really is and how it works. That's unacceptable. They need to be upfront with their own mechanics and at least touch on the concept early in-game somehow, heck even a load screen tip would be nice.

I think that's what upsets me the most, it's that they're relying on their own customers teach other customers on a skill that they have clearly shown to be at least a somewhat important skill to have. It's one thing if weaving pertains to just a support role such as tanking or healing, but DPS is by far the most popular role of just about any MMO and weaving is important for the role in order to further boost their damage.

Seriously, it's like going to a delicious restaurant only to be provided a menu with no entree section and the restaurant has its regulars explain the entree selections because you wouldn't know what's available otherwise.

That tip is only displayed when level 41 is reached, correct? I admittedly stopped reading those after level 7 as I want to collect my attribute and skill point and move on.

Put it on a loading screen so that the message can be sent consistently and not displayed only once in which a player, like myself, could easily miss it. Or more beneficially, create some sort of tutorial within the game, perhaps the beginning tutorial or elsewhere, that is a more involved introduction to the concept rather than a 10 word sentence that pops up once in-game.

They can't win. Someone else will come along and insist that loading screen tips are not enough, and that they need the game to hold their hand and guide them through a detailed tutorial.

They should make one, because they made the conscious decision to double down on the mechanic with the Summerset patch. Weaving is mentioned only once in game, yet major combat changes have been made to further reinforce the mechanic. If they insist on making the concept an integral part of the combat system, then they need to do a better job of teaching new players to the game of what that concept is and how to successfully do it.

If it were simply a cool little mechanic that helps boost DPS numbers a bit, that's one thing. But if they're making major changes to combat mechanics to promote such a mechanic; then that mechanic needs to be at the very least mentioned consistently.

Aurielle

Pheefs wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.

That would be fine so long as no content outside PvP required you to use AC to complete or succeed...
Not so much though, huh?

Again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5XDE7TLRoc&t=57s

I cancel precisely ONE skill animation per rotation (Volatile Familiar). Any light attack animation cancelling is not deliberate. My execution of my rotation was sloppy, and I screwed up the execution phase. My light attacks did not go off every time due to poor timing/lag. Still got 33.5k DPS self-buffed, which is more than enough for any veteran PVE content in the game.

Stop spreading misinformation.

pieratsos

Linaleah wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I am actually so tired of this.

Just made a video: 33.5k self-buffed, with MINIMAL animation cancelling AND MULTIPLE MISTAKES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5XDE7TLRoc

I am a magsorc wearing EASILY ACQUIRABLE GEAR (VMA staff aside, but you can hit the same numbers by double-barring Mechanical Acuity). I screwed up multiple times. I did not animation cancel every skill. Every light attack did not go off.

Practice your rotations and stop blaming animation cancelling for your inability to do adequate DPS.

30k self-buffed is enough for any content in this game. Only a tiny fraction of competitive leader board trial guilds want you to do 40k+ self-buffed.

Wanna see something more funny ? Pure light attack spam selfbuffed.

so just under 12k. because 8k of that damage is a new set that is not accessible to most players who have trouble with dps, you know being a trial set and all. in fact.. looking at your very minmaxed stats, and what exactly are you getting all the major buffs from? gear? that damage would be lower for a player not wearing your gear. by a few k at least.

but you shouldn't be just light attacking you say. yeah. you shouldn't be. but with changes to sustain you have to use basic attacks, whether light or heavy, or you run out of resources very quickly.

so weaving is something that has to happen. and weaving slower = slower dps. your light attack spam doesn't prove what you think it proves.

Its possible to do the normal trial and get the gear without any kind of weaving or AC by just using crafted gear. In fact its most likely possible even with that 12k DPS u are mentioning by just doing light attacks. So you can get the gear in the parse. Which isnt even needed cause you can do enough DPS and complete the majority of the content with basic gear and little to no weaving.

We understand that you cant weave/AC. Thats perfectly understandable, there is nothing wrong with it and thats why you can complete the majority of content without doing it. However you should also try to understand that you cant just make the hardest content achievable by people who cant even press two buttons every second cause that would be so casual to the point where browser games are more challenging.

And most importantly if you understood the mechanics of the game and how combat works which you should if you want to be able to do hard content, you would know that removing weaving/AC would require a mass overhaul of the entire combat system cause it has been balanced with weaving/AC in mind.

I know I can do basic game content without weaving. I'm doing it, up to and including soloing some of the content marked as 2+ (or 4 plus in case of some of the regular 4 man dungeons)

the thing is... weaving didn;t used to be required anywhere near this degree. before morrowind overhaul of the sustain, you could do pretty decent rotation with zero weaving just by using your class/weapon/guild/whatever skills. now you HAVE to weave, and zos only keeps doubling down on it. which.. ok, normal solo content is still doable, but anything else is getting more and more out of reach. and they don't even need to overhaul the game much, just roll back the sustain changes and all that came with it.

I understand how mechanics of the game work. instead of basic attacks being baked into combat - this game requires you to do every. little. thing. manually. which is likely why some people love it. I get it. but its also what is creating this skill rift and will keep widening it. weaving is a huge part of it.

you know what is difficult? finding a guild that will keep bringing your 12k dps along over and over. a whole guild of 12k dps people is going to struggle and most likely not run trials content all that often.

its still a catch 22.

but at least story content is still tuned lightly enough that someone like me can do it. unless of course "make it harder!" contingent gets their way (and i get it, becasue of this severe gap, story content is not fun for them either). as it is... DLC dungeons are basically out of my reach. and so are DLC trials on any sort of consistent basis. but hey, I'm only a dirty casual, git gud and all that.

I'm going to leave this thread now, before I get so bitter that i'll start losing enjoyments in parts of the game I still enjoy when I tell myself to stop thinking about all the parts of the game that are out of my reach... parts of the game that I used to be able to participate in other games that made more of an effort to minimize the gap between top and and bottom end players and everyone in between.

If weaving didnt used to be required then its even less required now. This is common sense because of power creep. A year ago 30-35k DPS was top notch with almost perfect weaving, bis gear etc. Now its achievable with subpar rotations and easy to get gear. And you dont even need half of that to do the majority of the content.

You dont even need a guild for normal trials. You can literally write in zone LFM n"insert trial of your choice" and make a group. No one will ask you about ur DPS cause no one cares. The majority of the time there will always be a couple of people in the group doing enough dmg to carry the entire group to the point where you can literally be afk and still complete it.

Just so you can understand how dumb normal trials are, when dromathra motifs came out and it was a good way to make money people were farming them on lowbie characters. They were literally making alts just to do one run on normal MOL, get a motif delete them and make another character. We are talking about naked lvl3 characters. They were not even doing 2k DPS, let alone 12k. They were there just for people to carry them and no one cared. This isnt some technicality. This is reality cause like i told you there will always be some half decent players in the group farming gear as well and they will be doing enough DPS to carry the entire group.

And lastly, im sorry but you dont seem to understand how combat works. Even the most obvious mechanic of combat (gettting ult) is attached on light attacks. There are skills like merciless requiring light attacks to proc. There are dozens of sets requiring light/heavy attacks to work. And then there is the readjustment of the entire content. Those are things that you should know if you understood combat and wanted to do actually hard content.

At this point you are literally just playing dumb and refusing to face facts. You have two choices, you either continue to live in ur own version of truth and blame everyone and everything, or you can just simply ask yourself that maybe you are just wrong and at least try to listen to other people's advices. I mean, if they are competent players that have done everything in the game, they must know something more than you right?

Grabmoore

Tyhar wrote: »

I don't understand why so many people keep asking for the wrong thing. Animation cancelling is fine and needs to stay. What people should be asking for is for the skill not to register if it is animation cancelled.

So you want to kill templars for once and for good? Because that would be the result of your proposal. The last time ZOS tried to change it, they introduced macro slicing (Google it) and AC became more clunky. Please let this horse rest in peace.

idk

Pheefs wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You do not have to learn how to do it. That is a choice.

That would be fine so long as no content outside PvP required you to use AC to complete or succeed...
Not so much though, huh?

No content requires players to AC. None. Vet trials can be cleared by a group where on one ACs. A majority of the difference in damage between someone puling 20k on a dummy vs 40 has nothing to do with AC.

In fact, most to players AC light attacks only outside of when they need to bar swap.

So yes, it is a choice.

JumpmanLane

Weaving and animation canceling are the bread and butter of the very best players I know. Ultimately it’s all about speed. Animation canceling just happens if you are playing fast. Doing EVERYTHING quicker is the best way of getting better if you are new to the game.

Animation canceling becomes a skill if you know what anims will cancel what others AND there’s a decided advantage in doing so.

Against mindless NPC’s you should be doing rotations. Against humans in PvP you should be doing combinations. When doing either rotations or combinations, knowing and USING animation canceling is competitively advantageous. ESO is a highly competitive game. Compete.

As for weaving (whether heavy or light) there are advantages for doing both. Light builds ulti. Heavy returns resources. Both do damage. Both save resources. Both allow you to sustain and benefit from not overspamming your more powerful skills.

To simply decry something because you as a gamer haven’t learned to do it yet, and ask for its removal from the game makes me wonder why you’re playing this game at all. “L2P” and “git gud” are insults but at some point everyone who picks this game up has to learn to play it and get better. It’s a process. It’s a journey. It’s a challenge. Just do it! Your efforts will be rewarded...someday...lol

Jameliel

OP, the vast majority of MMO Vets agree with you. There are loads of people who quit or never really got into the game due to its clunky combat mechanics. ZO$ loves shooting themselves in the foot. Their fan bois attitudes are on full display in this thread, telling people to "get gone". Lots of people are gone, and many will leave. All thanks to stupid decisions which should have never been made.

Kova

I like keeping a list of players who keep complaining about animation cancelling.

If you compare their posting history you start to see some amazing similarities: Age, low skill level, and affinity for older games are the most obvious.

idk

Jameliel wrote: »

OP, the vast majority of MMO Vets agree with you. There are loads of people who quit or never really got into the game due to its clunky combat mechanics. ZO$ loves shooting themselves in the foot. Their fan bois attitudes are on full display in this thread, telling people to "get gone". Lots of people are gone, and many will leave. All thanks to stupid decisions which should have never been made.

@Jameliel

Really? Please name some of them. It does not seem to be the case.

If they are truly good players they could easily handle AC so it would not be a reason they left. They would have found ESO combat very freeing from the clunky combat of old style MMORPGs.

Zos has clearly not shot themselves in the foot. You are still here to prove it. You are proof that your statement is so incorrect.

MaleAmazon

IMO attack weaving is kind of a replacement for good old "timing", also it is kind of a replacement for the more skill-rewarding system ESO was supposed to have AFAIK. It is one of the few things you actually have to mind in combat - and you don´t even really have to mind it.

"Auto-attacks"?!?!

And ESO doesn´t have clunky mechanics. They´re quite fluid actually. You don´t get stuck in casting animations, you don´t get perma-stunned, there are mechanics to respond too. It is not perfect, but it is fast-paced and fun.

Seems some people here would like combat to be turn-based.

Betsararie

AC consists of hitting left click after casting a skill. Who finds that difficult?

MaleAmazon

AC consists of hitting left click after casting a skill. Who finds that difficult?

Actually it´s the other way around.

Betsararie

MaleAmazon wrote: »

AC consists of hitting left click after casting a skill. Who finds that difficult?

Actually it´s the other way around.

It can. So what about it makes it so you can't do it?

MaleAmazon

It can. So what about it makes it so you can't do it?

Sentence does not compute.

AlexTheLion

I think it’s hilarious that half the arguments about AC is that it should be removed due to it looking ugly and ruining immersion. If you don’t like how it looks then don’t AC. I don’t think it gets much simpler than that.

Betsararie

MaleAmazon wrote: »

It can. So what about it makes it so you can't do it?

Sentence does not compute.

Why can't you animation cancel? What is difficult about it for you?

Starlight_Knight

Yes incredibly dumb, ive always hated it and it makes pvp favour stam builds "weaving" LA bash combos.

MaleAmazon

Why can't you animation cancel? What is difficult about it for you?

I can animation cancel. Your sentence simply didn´t make sense, also the point is that (light attack) animation cancel is made by clicking left button, THEN skill. Not skill and then left button.

adeptusminor

I'm seeing a lot of excuses from people that just don't want to Git Gud

Betsararie

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Why can't you animation cancel? What is difficult about it for you?

I can animation cancel. Your sentence simply didn´t make sense, also the point is that (light attack) animation cancel is made by clicking left button, THEN skill. Not skill and then left button.

A rotation utilizing weaving will feature skills being casted and then their animations being cancelled with light attacks, so my statement holds true.

Ackwalan

Simple put, animation canceling was a broken mechanic, and after multiple attempts to fix, ZOS gave up and called it weaving.

Personally I think this approach is what causes many problems in ESO. These broken mechanics at the base of the code is like building a house on a poor foundation. Very difficult to fix, affect every addition to the house, and make for a poor over all structure.

MaleAmazon

A rotation utilizing weaving will feature skills being casted and then their animations being cancelled with light attacks, so my statement holds true.

No. You cancel light attack animations with skills. You cancel skill animations with bash / bar swap.

Aurielle

Blanco wrote: »

MaleAmazon wrote: »

Why can't you animation cancel? What is difficult about it for you?

I can animation cancel. Your sentence simply didn´t make sense, also the point is that (light attack) animation cancel is made by clicking left button, THEN skill. Not skill and then left button.

A rotation utilizing weaving will feature skills being casted and then their animations being cancelled with light attacks, so my statement holds true.

You aren’t making any sense. You had it backwards. MaleAmazon is pointing out that you cancel the animation of the LIGHT ATTACK, not the SKILL, when you weave fast enough. To do this properly, you don’t start out with a skill and try to cancel the skill with a light attack; you start out with a light attack and cancel the recovery animation of the light attack by immediately casting a skill.

For a visual, see this old patch thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245038/official-feedback-thread-for-prioritization-of-combat-animations/p1

To cancel the animation of a SKILL (which is NOT weaving), you block, weapon swap, dodge, or bash, as soon as the skill is activated.

Half the freaking problem in these threads is that people don’t know what they’re talking about.