Healing Staff vs Lightning Staff

perogwin_ESO

A while ago I created an Argonian Templar that I used as a DPS that could go heals in a pinch. I had a lot of DOT abilities that I used with the Valkan set and it was quite effective. I decided to use Healing Staves on both bars DPS Front/ Heal Back, it was a lot of fun to play until I ran into a few different people in dungeons who were annoyed I was using the Heal Staff for DPS. I switched the DPS bar to a lightning staff and tried playing it that way but I really did not like the way it worked, so instead of putting up with people yelling at me for Healing Staves on DPS I just stopped playing the character.

Please note, even when I moved to lightning staff it wasn’t like I was using any skills from the line, just the passives.

So my question is: Does a Healing Staff really do that much less DPS damage vs. a lightning staff, at least enough to warrant the PUG threatening to kick me if I didn’t get a real weapon for DPS, or were they just misinformed about it?

sho_nuff

You lose access to destro skills and passives.

DarkAedin

Its about the electric staff; wall of elements, and elemental drain.

WoE - aoe offballance proc
Ele drain - magica builds require this for sustain on longer fights and is a huge help if u slap it on a mob or two in aoe trash pulls

If the healer isnt using it, the dps have to slot it and lose thier big d parse.
And how dare u for hurting their parse sir! How dare you!

perogwin_ESO

As I said I want using any of the Destro Skills to begin with even when I started using the lightning staff and the passives were not doing to much for me since all my damage was "Light Magic" (with exception of the monster set meteor) and not getting the bonus from the elemental passives because they only work on Fire, Ice, or Electric. Damage output was not an issue, I did quite well with the Healing Staff as DPS Weapon. In fact I seemed to be doing less damage when I switched over to lightning staff.

As a side note, even on my characters that use Elemental Staves by design I dislike the Elemental Drain so I don't use it, I make up for it with sheer damage.

DarkAedin

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

As I said I want using any of the Destro Skills to begin with even when I started using the lightning staff and the passives were not doing to much for me since all my damage was "Light Magic" (with exception of the monster set meteor) and not getting the bonus from the elemental passives because they only work on Fire, Ice, or Electric. Damage output was not an issue, I did quite well with the Healing Staff as DPS Weapon. In fact I seemed to be doing less damage when I switched over to lightning staff.

I dont even know where to start.
How about here: there is no source of "Light Magic" in this game.

perogwin_ESO

DarkAedin wrote: »

I dont even know where to start.
How about here: there is no source of "Light Magic" in this game.

That is why I put it in quotes, its straight magic damage no elemental component for all of the Templar Damage powers so they do not get a specific elemental bonus to it from the destroy staff passives. People use to say it counted as fire but that rumor was squashed years ago.

Danksta

Yes, you are giving up a lot of damage by not using a destro staff. Whether it's enough to warrant kicking you from the group I suppose is dependent on how good the group was. If the group was struggling I might say yes. If I was in the group I wouldn't have kicked you but I'm a pretty decent DPS.

The main issue you're going to have running dual resto staves as a DPS is the passives just don't do anything for you in terms of dealing damage. Not to mention you're giving up a staple skill in any mag DPS kit, Elemental Blockade.

kvlou79

Hm. Lot of confusion here. When groups queue for dungeons they expect the DPS to be bad azz, not just contributing to dps. If you like the resto staves, queue as a healer and do some dpsing while your healing. I do on both my healers. The resto staves and the skill line/passives are meant for healing. The heavy attack is meant for magika recovery. Let the DPS that are built for high damage output get the slots for the group.

AcadianPaladin

My healplar uses lightning staff on one bar primarily for EleDrain. Then also for Blockade (when I slot it). Another reason is that the lightning staff itself (heavy attacks) is an area weapon and she likes that. Finally, the destro passives on a lightning staff boost all AoE damage - this means Shards, and Sweeps hit harder.

Nestor

You only need a 3 skill rotation on your Lightening Bar for your healer to do some decent DPS

1. Reflecting Light
2. Wall of Elements
3. Pulsar or Force Pulse

No reason to not have the above skills on a Staff Bar your just horsing around with. And, you have two more slots left for other things that you might want.

DuskMarine

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

A while ago I created an Argonian Templar that I used as a DPS that could go heals in a pinch. I had a lot of DOT abilities that I used with the Valkan set and it was quite effective. I decided to use Healing Staves on both bars DPS Front/ Heal Back, it was a lot of fun to play until I ran into a few different people in dungeons who were annoyed I was using the Heal Staff for DPS. I switched the DPS bar to a lightning staff and tried playing it that way but I really did not like the way it worked, so instead of putting up with people yelling at me for Healing Staves on DPS I just stopped playing the character.

Please note, even when I moved to lightning staff it wasn’t like I was using any skills from the line, just the passives.

So my question is: Does a Healing Staff really do that much less DPS damage vs. a lightning staff, at least enough to warrant the PUG threatening to kick me if I didn’t get a real weapon for DPS, or were they just misinformed about it?

for a templar healer its best to roll resto front destro back bar. cause youll need both to buff your group. and a pug threatening to kick you cause you dont do good dps(when your a healer even a hybrid) has no right to speak at all. they choose to blame people when they really shouldnt

perogwin_ESO

Guess I will continue not using that character then since my entire concept for it is destroyed, oh well he was fun while he lasted.

DarkAedin

That being said. It sounds like ur a dps with offheals and usually thats not a problem if ur doing good dmg and keeping players alive with hots. Most end game groups run 1 tank 3 dps with offhealing happening by everyone. But if ppl are not at that and are expecting a healer, the current meta is for healers to wear group dps buffing sets and supply group synergies via ele staff offballance (you need to research this now), ele drain sustain, shards or orbs, etc.

For an example, i run a dps/healer magden who runs fire staff front bar, ele staff backbar, i run master architect and spc and just slot orbs backbar. My groups love the added 25k single target dps, magden buffs and spc/ma buff

Something like this might be for u

Danksta

DuskMarine wrote: »

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

A while ago I created an Argonian Templar that I used as a DPS that could go heals in a pinch. I had a lot of DOT abilities that I used with the Valkan set and it was quite effective. I decided to use Healing Staves on both bars DPS Front/ Heal Back, it was a lot of fun to play until I ran into a few different people in dungeons who were annoyed I was using the Heal Staff for DPS. I switched the DPS bar to a lightning staff and tried playing it that way but I really did not like the way it worked, so instead of putting up with people yelling at me for Healing Staves on DPS I just stopped playing the character.

Please note, even when I moved to lightning staff it wasn’t like I was using any skills from the line, just the passives.

So my question is: Does a Healing Staff really do that much less DPS damage vs. a lightning staff, at least enough to warrant the PUG threatening to kick me if I didn’t get a real weapon for DPS, or were they just misinformed about it?

for a templar healer its best to roll resto front destro back bar. cause youll need both to buff your group. and a pug threatening to kick you cause you dont do good dps(when your a healer even a hybrid) has no right to speak at all. they choose to blame people when they really shouldnt

But from my understanding the OP was queuing as a DPS "that could go heals in a pinch". So if they were a DPS doing terrible damage (which I'm assuming they were with the lack of build knowledge, along with the lack of passives and not using any destro staff skills) they have every right to be kicked if they were holding the group back.

Gargath

Templar should not use destro staff if it's only for the elemental drain, as the templars already have Restoring/Radiant Aura, which is way better, applies Minor magickasteal to all mobs in a 28 meter radius, not just single targets like ele drain.

However the destro is for the other combat-useful passives and resto plays usually as magicka restoration purpose as it gives more magicka back from heavy attack then any destro.

I'd say don't give up on this character but test it longer.

perogwin_ESO

Nestor wrote: »

You only need a 3 skill rotation on your Lightening Bar for your healer to do some decent DPS

1. Reflecting Light
2. Wall of Elements
3. Pulsar or Force Pulse

No reason to not have the above skills on a Staff Bar your just horsing around with. And, you have two more slots left for other things that you might want.

Not what he was designed for, he was designed so that every power activated his monster set as soon as the previous cool down was finished, as I said actual damage was never the issue even with the Heal Staff as DPS

The heavy attack on the healing staff itself counts as a dot for the monster set and I was never below 50% mana ever

1. Reflective Light - activated monster set with multiple possible targets
2. Shards using the Dot upgrade - activated monster set and was a nice resource replenished for main healer
3. Radiant Destruction using Mana bonus - activated monster set and was devastating when used after 50% mark on target
4. Cleaning Ritual using Dot upgrade - activated monster set and allowed the main healer a little breathing room to also DPS
5. Rune Focus with the Mana Regeneration option - I barely took damage (combined with heavy reinforced armor) and kept my mana full to use the other powers more often.

Ultimate - Nova using Solar Prison - activated monster set and the synergy damage is based on caster not activator so it used all my damage bonuses listed below.

Monster Set - with all the dots it activated as soon as it was cooled down - so pretty much every 5 seconds base damage 8000 with an addition 4000 splash (remember that is before all the following bonuses)

Rattle Cage Armor Set - increased all damage from all abilities and weapon and monster set 20% to begin with.

Then add that to a lot of Champion points in Elemental Expert, Thaumaturgy, Staff Mastery - and its damage output ended up being significant.

perogwin_ESO

DuskMarine wrote: »

for a templar healer its best to roll resto front destro back bar. cause youll need both to buff your group. and a pug threatening to kick you cause you dont do good dps(when your a healer even a hybrid) has no right to speak at all. they choose to blame people when they really shouldnt

I designed him as DPS focus off healer, I never used him as an actual healer unless the team healer disconnected or died then I could switch to the bar with a few extra heal things on.

And it wasn't because my dps was lacking - in one case I was out DPSing the other dps, it was just because I was using a healing stave as main dps weapon and the Tank thought it was some kind a taboo.

perogwin_ESO

Danksta wrote: »

But from my understanding the OP was queuing as a DPS "that could go heals in a pinch". So if they were a DPS doing terrible damage (which I'm assuming they were with the lack of build knowledge, along with the lack of passives and not using any destro staff skills) they have every right to be kicked if they were holding the group back.

Again, in one of the cases of a PUG complaining I was OUT dpsin the other dps in the group because of the build I use but the tank was in the mind set a healing staff isn't for dps regardless of the fact I was the one doing all the killing.

lassitershawn

If you’re healing, you need destro for elemental drain.
If you’re DPS, you need destro for passives and blockade at a bare minimum but possibly destro ult and FP.

DuskMarine

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

for a templar healer its best to roll resto front destro back bar. cause youll need both to buff your group. and a pug threatening to kick you cause you dont do good dps(when your a healer even a hybrid) has no right to speak at all. they choose to blame people when they really shouldnt

I designed him as DPS focus off healer, I never used him as an actual healer unless the team healer disconnected or died then I could switch to the bar with a few extra heal things on.

And it wasn't because my dps was lacking - in one case I was out DPSing the other dps, it was just because I was using a healing stave as main dps weapon and the Tank thought it was some kind a taboo.

either way the dude still had no right to be pissed or threaten to kick you. through and through your still a hybrid at least youd be in my eyes but when your still out dpsing the other dps he should kick that dude not you.

Shezzarrine

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

You only need a 3 skill rotation on your Lightening Bar for your healer to do some decent DPS

1. Reflecting Light
2. Wall of Elements
3. Pulsar or Force Pulse

No reason to not have the above skills on a Staff Bar your just horsing around with. And, you have two more slots left for other things that you might want.

Not what he was designed for, he was designed so that every power activated his monster set as soon as the previous cool down was finished, as I said actual damage was never the issue even with the Heal Staff as DPS

The heavy attack on the healing staff itself counts as a dot for the monster set and I was never below 50% mana ever

1. Reflective Light - activated monster set with multiple possible targets
2. Shards using the Dot upgrade - activated monster set and was a nice resource replenished for main healer
3. Radiant Destruction using Mana bonus - activated monster set and was devastating when used after 50% mark on target
4. Cleaning Ritual using Dot upgrade - activated monster set and allowed the main healer a little breathing room to also DPS
5. Rune Focus with the Mana Regeneration option - I barely took damage (combined with heavy reinforced armor) and kept my mana full to use the other powers more often.

Ultimate - Nova using Solar Prison - activated monster set and the synergy damage is based on caster not activator so it used all my damage bonuses listed below.

Monster Set - with all the dots it activated as soon as it was cooled down - so pretty much every 5 seconds base damage 8000 with an addition 4000 splash (remember that is before all the following bonuses)

Rattle Cage Armor Set - increased all damage from all abilities and weapon and monster set 20% to begin with.

Then add that to a lot of Champion points in Elemental Expert, Thaumaturgy, Staff Mastery - and its damage output ended up being significant.

You can't just say your damage "isn't a problem" without giving an indication of what your damage accually is with the setup. I've run with terrible dps who think their weird builds are good and their damage is too but are only pulling 20% of group damage in a four man group (so less than 15k).

Not saying your build is bad as I truely don't know but you have to give some sort of indication of the dps you do because if it's 15k or less it's just not good enough.

If it's more than that it's just pugs being pugs.

Marginis

Both resto and lightning staves have advantages and disadvantages, even when you're considering both in the context of a DPS build. Generally, your DPS will be lower (it's subjective whether that's significant) just due to passives and the staves themselves, when you use a resto staff over something like the lightning staff, but you gain in return better magicka recovery from heavy attacks and you're still technically off-healing, if not with abilities. If you are a healer primarily, there is nothing wrong with not having the max DPS you can get, but that said, you should be able to fit all you need for resto on one bar, and swap back to that bar if you ever need to heal or heavy attack for magicka return. In that case there's really no reason not to run lightning on your off-bar.

perogwin_ESO

Gargath wrote: »

However the destro is for the other combat-useful passives and resto plays usually as magicka restoration purpose as it gives more magicka back from heavy attack then any Destro.

I appreciate your saying to keep going with I

<cut because I misread what you said - there was lots of math that just proved your point>

Danksta

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

But from my understanding the OP was queuing as a DPS "that could go heals in a pinch". So if they were a DPS doing terrible damage (which I'm assuming they were with the lack of build knowledge, along with the lack of passives and not using any destro staff skills) they have every right to be kicked if they were holding the group back.

Again, in one of the cases of a PUG complaining I was OUT dpsin the other dps in the group because of the build I use but the tank was in the mind set a healing staff isn't for dps regardless of the fact I was the one doing all the killing.

Regardless of if you were out DPSing the other DPS you were clearly gimping yourself with your build. A DPS with dual restos and heavy armor using a healers ultimate that is next to useless in dungeons is just asking to be kicked from PUGs. But I'm assuming I'm just wasting my time here. You're clearly the type of person that asks questions and pushes back to any answer that you don't want to hear.

SammyFable

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

You only need a 3 skill rotation on your Lightening Bar for your healer to do some decent DPS

1. Reflecting Light
2. Wall of Elements
3. Pulsar or Force Pulse

No reason to not have the above skills on a Staff Bar your just horsing around with. And, you have two more slots left for other things that you might want.

Not what he was designed for, he was designed so that every power activated his monster set as soon as the previous cool down was finished, as I said actual damage was never the issue even with the Heal Staff as DPS

The heavy attack on the healing staff itself counts as a dot for the monster set and I was never below 50% mana ever

1. Reflective Light - activated monster set with multiple possible targets
2. Shards using the Dot upgrade - activated monster set and was a nice resource replenished for main healer
3. Radiant Destruction using Mana bonus - activated monster set and was devastating when used after 50% mark on target
4. Cleaning Ritual using Dot upgrade - activated monster set and allowed the main healer a little breathing room to also DPS
5. Rune Focus with the Mana Regeneration option - I barely took damage (combined with heavy reinforced armor) and kept my mana full to use the other powers more often.

Ultimate - Nova using Solar Prison - activated monster set and the synergy damage is based on caster not activator so it used all my damage bonuses listed below.

Monster Set - with all the dots it activated as soon as it was cooled down - so pretty much every 5 seconds base damage 8000 with an addition 4000 splash (remember that is before all the following bonuses)

Rattle Cage Armor Set - increased all damage from all abilities and weapon and monster set 20% to begin with.

Then add that to a lot of Champion points in Elemental Expert, Thaumaturgy, Staff Mastery - and its damage output ended up being significant.

So out of all the 12 skills you could use, you tell us 6, 3 of which can easily be kept up from your backbar. What other 6 abilities are you using?
And, as mentioned above, just assuming your damage is good won't tell anything. If you are playing on pc get an addon like combatmetrics and look at a boss parse. If you can't do that, you can go to somebodys house with a dps dummy and kill it. You'll then get a readout of your dps in your chat.

perogwin_ESO

Danksta wrote: »

But I'm assuming I'm just wasting my time here. You're clearly the type of person that asks questions and pushes back to any answer that you don't want to hear.

All I was trying to do was explain the reasoning behind the specific build I was using, it isn't push back at all. You made it quite clear how you feel and I appreciate the input, but others might have a different response once they see the specifics behind how the build was designed.

I have to much work into the character to get rid of it, and before the PUG fiasco it was my favorite character to play. I made the changes to using a Destor staff, I still have no use for the skills from that staff line because it goes against the concept of the character. Because of changing the staves I now do less damage on that character then I did before because the mana regeneration is significantly less so I can fire off the powers I use as often. So he sits and gathers dust, that my issue not yours.

I 100% appreciate all the input from this thread, even if I don't always agree with it.

perogwin_ESO

SammyFable wrote: »

So out of all the 12 skills you could use, you tell us 6, 3 of which can easily be kept up from your backbar. What other 6 abilities are you using?

The other bar is the heal bar - I rarely use it unless I have to

1. Regen
2. Breath of Life
3. Hasty Prayer
4. Shards
5. Cleaning Ritual

Ultimate - Practiced Incantation

Due to other issues it is difficult for me to switch from one bar to the other easily on the computer I use, so unless its between fights I can only access 1 bar at a time.

Marginis

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

Due to other issues it is difficult for me to switch from one bar to the other easily on the computer I use, so unless its between fights I can only access 1 bar at a time.

Perfectly reasonable reason to run dual resto staff. You can make it work too, if the bar swapping thing is that much of an issue for you (which it can be for some). It does put you at a disadvantage in higher level content (don't expect to be doing vet trials without bar swapping, although it is possible), but aside from the occasional tryhard giving you grief here and there, it shouldn't be an issue if that's what you want to run.

perogwin_ESO

Marginis wrote: »

Perfectly reasonable reason to run dual resto staff. You can make it work too, if the bar swapping thing is that much of an issue for you (which it can be for some). It does put you at a disadvantage in higher level content (don't expect to be doing vet trials without bar swapping, although it is possible), but aside from the occasional tryhard giving you grief here and there, it shouldn't be an issue if that's what you want to run.

You are correct, I am unable to do any kind of Trials or even PVP, but I do enjoy PVE greatly and the occasional 4 man dungeon runs (Not ever PUG is full of jerks luckily, and my guilds are use to me).

AcadianPaladin

You actually could run dual resto's as long as you're comfy with the results. Barring high end content you should be fine. Templar has enough class skills to make up most of the diff re damage: Shards, Purif Light, Radiant Glory, Sweeps, Reflective Light.

And yes, Radiant Aura can provide magicka steal to your allies. The reasons I prefer EleDrain here are:
No cost, no aggro, debuff included. Radiant Aura has a nasty habit of aggroing not only the entire chamber but darn near half the dungeon (lol). If I was to go with Aura, I would never morph it - 12M is way plenty radius without the additional aggro/pulls that the 28M radius causes.

Aurielle

perogwin_ESO wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

So out of all the 12 skills you could use, you tell us 6, 3 of which can easily be kept up from your backbar. What other 6 abilities are you using?

The other bar is the heal bar - I rarely use it unless I have to

1. Regen
2. Breath of Life
3. Hasty Prayer
4. Shards
5. Cleaning Ritual

Ultimate - Practiced Incantation

Due to other issues it is difficult for me to switch from one bar to the other easily on the computer I use, so unless its between fights I can only access 1 bar at a time.

Here’s the thing, though... if you queue as a damage dealer, your group expects you to deal damage. I don’t blame your group members for getting frustrated. By all means, add some group healing skills to your back bar if you realize at the first boss that your healer’s not up to snuff... Otherwise? Stuff like BoL, Ritual, etc. is overkill if your healer’s doing his/her job. The fact that you rarely use your back bar might explain the negative feedback you’re getting too. You really shouldn’t be dealing damage on one bar alone, and ESPECIALLY not with a resto staff...

Also, Rattlecage is a mediocre PVP set, at best. What other set are you using? Are you even using two five piece sets...? As a PVE magicka damage dealer, wearing at least five pieces of light armour is the way to go. In PVE, heavy armour passives are only really useful for tanks, not damage dealers. In PVP, heavy armour passives are a little more relevant, as you’re actually taking damage in that situation. Hang on to Rattlecage if you plan on taking the character to Cyrodiil; if not, decon it. There are far better options available in light armour that will help you to deal more damage.

Using random suboptimal builds is fine for overland stuff if it works for you, but people in dungeons are relying on you to do the job you signed up to do. I know you might not like to hear that, but it’s the reality of group play in MMOs.