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Jewelry crafting is grindy
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craigr02✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »p.s. you like grind doesn't means everyone else should enjoy grind as well. grind is boring and repetitive.. which normal human being don't enjoy
They don't like grind, but they will put up with grind. They are just apologists. They are ok with whatever Daddy ZOS decides is best for them.
ZOS would have to do something quite extreme to get the "Its ok" crowd to actually grow a backbone. Jewelry trait mats in crown crates perhaps? But honestly, ZOS could slaughter baby khajiit on the front steps of Daggerfall City and people would still defend them.
Perhaps it's just a different approach - what some consider grinding, others would consider playing the game. It all comes down to how critical the timing is, those who are determined to achieve a certain thing in a certain time will consider it a grind focusing on it to get there, others may simply take it all in their stride as just another part of the game without any sense of urgency or, therefore, "grind".
I don't like grinding the gear. I like using the gear. The one thing that prevents me from playing more is the amount of time it takes to farm certain gear items to try unique builds.
Nothing kills the dream harder than coming up with awesome build, then realizing you have to grind through terrible RNG based content to get the one item you need that is the lynchpin of the build.
Having to grind up to max level jewelrycrafting and doing 3 months of research just to craft 9trait gear in jewelry doesn't sound any better.
Then don't.
It really is quite simple. From the sounds of it, you don't seem to enjoy the steady progress towards the distant goal of mastery. You want to be out there and doing things. Excellent, all well and good. No problems here.
So why not leave this system to the people who do like to play that way?
You absolutely don't "have" to grind jewelry crafting. There are people in the community who will learn this new crafting skill because they enjoy it. You know what opportunity that gives you? To play the game in the mean-time and then pay the person some gold to make the jewelry for you. You never have to grind, you don't even need to stop your usual activities.
Support the crafting economy!
I swear, the issue with crafting has always been that ZOS has encouraged a "everyone should have a crafter" mindset. The ZOS makes changes to crafting to help the people who don't like crafting do crafting.
Leave the crafting for the crafters. There are enough of us out there to support the rest with gear and consumables. Really. Just throw some gold our way and you'll get everything you ever need without devoting time, skill points or a character slot.
Wrong, you do have to grind instead this time for gold, and a lot of it, because it wont be cheap.
You are make an absolute statement about a price that hasn't been set, by people who haven't been identified, in a system that hasn't yet been released...
... can I have a go with that crystal ball after you?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Just to get a general sense of what you are basing this pronouncement on (obviously apart from the massive personal bias), are you:- A regular direct customer of a significant part of the crafting community (say, 51% as a working majority) and buy a significant amount of gear across all categories (armour, weapons)? That might allow you to wager an informed estimate of what they will do.
- A master crafter who has done a large amount of trade and has enough repeat customers to know what the market will stand? Anyone can gouge for high prices once. Getting people to come back requires being reasonable about your charges.
Somehow, I suspect that neither of these situations apply to you, but I am more than happy for your to present evidence to the contrary.
I am both one and two and part of major trading guilds, having played since launch on console. I have also made a lot of gold on things, like when imperial city dropped and vr 16 was a thing, selling material then that you could eventually get in wrothgar and from telvar.
The wrothgar one is a good example since it was the only place other than sewers to get vr 16 mats. It sucked by the way.
I forgot to sdd that i have a minor in economics aswell, so i might not have a crystal ball, but i do have a good idea.Edited by craigr02 on May 2, 2018 11:22PM0 -
craigr02✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »It still amazes me that people complain of 'grinds' in MMOs...
Why would that surprise you? People hate that aspect. Honestly who looks for a game and is like oh yay, theres going to be a lot of grinding in this game i must get it!
Games show you the funner content, not the boring parts of going arounding grabbing nodes. They also dont tell you that your going to be expected to be in certain sets and hit a specific amount to be allowed in some of the content.
Me as a consumer, i dont want to have to spend months to get something.
I see myself getting JC maxed in a week or two, and having 6 traits researched within 15 days, so that aspect wont be to bad, but what im not looking forward to is farming or paying for the gold upgrades.
It doesn't surprise me, it AMAZES me. MMOs have always had grinds, time and gold sinks. It's part of their very nature. Having said that, ESO is very good at making some grinds more enjoyable than others but they are still there.
For instance, getting all the lorebooks to level the mages guild, the Undaunted dailies, boring fishing achievements. I rest my case...
^this....
what, there's new stuff?
wait, i have to do something to get it?
aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it's so unfair all this grinding
/sarcasm.
such is the nature of game forums though. anything that may require a bit of time to achieve instantly becomes an insufferable grind.
it really is quite pathetic.
I hate all those things, especially mages guild. Since im on console i dont have all those awesome addons. Dungeons i dont consider a grind, i consider them part of content. The rest are a grind after the first time getting them.1 -
Iluvrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »p.s. you like grind doesn't means everyone else should enjoy grind as well. grind is boring and repetitive.. which normal human being don't enjoy
They don't like grind, but they will put up with grind. They are just apologists. They are ok with whatever Daddy ZOS decides is best for them.
ZOS would have to do something quite extreme to get the "Its ok" crowd to actually grow a backbone. Jewelry trait mats in crown crates perhaps? But honestly, ZOS could slaughter baby khajiit on the front steps of Daggerfall City and people would still defend them.
Perhaps it's just a different approach - what some consider grinding, others would consider playing the game. It all comes down to how critical the timing is, those who are determined to achieve a certain thing in a certain time will consider it a grind focusing on it to get there, others may simply take it all in their stride as just another part of the game without any sense of urgency or, therefore, "grind".
I don't like grinding the gear. I like using the gear. The one thing that prevents me from playing more is the amount of time it takes to farm certain gear items to try unique builds.
Nothing kills the dream harder than coming up with awesome build, then realizing you have to grind through terrible RNG based content to get the one item you need that is the lynchpin of the build.
Having to grind up to max level jewelrycrafting and doing 3 months of research just to craft 9trait gear in jewelry doesn't sound any better.
Then don't.
It really is quite simple. From the sounds of it, you don't seem to enjoy the steady progress towards the distant goal of mastery. You want to be out there and doing things. Excellent, all well and good. No problems here.
So why not leave this system to the people who do like to play that way?
You absolutely don't "have" to grind jewelry crafting. There are people in the community who will learn this new crafting skill because they enjoy it. You know what opportunity that gives you? To play the game in the mean-time and then pay the person some gold to make the jewelry for you. You never have to grind, you don't even need to stop your usual activities.
Support the crafting economy!
I swear, the issue with crafting has always been that ZOS has encouraged a "everyone should have a crafter" mindset. The ZOS makes changes to crafting to help the people who don't like crafting do crafting.
Leave the crafting for the crafters. There are enough of us out there to support the rest with gear and consumables. Really. Just throw some gold our way and you'll get everything you ever need without devoting time, skill points or a character slot.
Wrong, you do have to grind instead this time for gold, and a lot of it, because it wont be cheap.
You are make an absolute statement about a price that hasn't been set, by people who haven't been identified, in a system that hasn't yet been released...
... can I have a go with that crystal ball after you?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Just to get a general sense of what you are basing this pronouncement on (obviously apart from the massive personal bias), are you:- A regular direct customer of a significant part of the crafting community (say, 51% as a working majority) and buy a significant amount of gear across all categories (armour, weapons)? That might allow you to wager an informed estimate of what they will do.
- A master crafter who has done a large amount of trade and has enough repeat customers to know what the market will stand? Anyone can gouge for high prices once. Getting people to come back requires being reasonable about your charges.
Somehow, I suspect that neither of these situations apply to you, but I am more than happy for your to present evidence to the contrary.
I am both one and two and part of major trading guilds, having played since launch on console. I have also made a lot of gold on things, like when imperial city dropped and vr 16 was a thing, selling material then that you could eventually get in wrothgar and from telvar.
The wrothgar one is a good example since it was the only place other than sewers to get vr 16 mats. It sucked by the way.
I forgot to sdd that i have a minor in economics aswell, so i might not have a crystal ball, but i do have a good idea.
Ah, it becomes clear. An ex-gouger is now worried that they might be on the receiving end of their own tactics.
I can't speak for console, since I have only played on PC (since pre-launch early access), but I wouldn't be too worried. Every guild that I have been part of has had a few crafters, often including myself, who are more than happy to do the work for the cost of the materials.
For the first few weeks, the materials will probably be a bit pricey. Much as Rubedite and Ruby Ash were while people were struggling to make CP160 sets (and people who wanted to maximise profit were making them pay for it). After that, the prices will come down as they have done before.
So the question that actually arises is with regards to your own approach: If you want gold jewelry on day one, then you will end up paying through the nose for it. If you are ok with being patient for a month or so, then experience suggests that prices will be far more reasonable.
The system itself is unlikely to support high prices in perpetuity due to the nature of the demand... but, of course, an econ minor would know that already.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ah, it becomes clear. An ex-gouger is now worried that they might be on the receiving end of their own tactics.
I can't speak for console, since I have only played on PC (since pre-launch early access), but I wouldn't be too worried. Every guild that I have been part of has had a few crafters, often including myself, who are more than happy to do the work for the cost of the materials.
For the first few weeks, the materials will probably be a bit pricey. Much as Rubedite and Ruby Ash were while people were struggling to make CP160 sets (and people who wanted to maximise profit were making them pay for it). After that, the prices will come down as they have done before.
So the question that actually arises is with regards to your own approach: If you want gold jewelry on day one, then you will end up paying through the nose for it. If you are ok with being patient for a month or so, then experience suggests that prices will be far more reasonable.
The system itself is unlikely to support high prices in perpetuity due to the nature of the demand... but, of course, an econ minor would know that already.
No, you've completely missed context here. You'll see this one all the time. People whining about how expensive everything is, when the supply is hilariously low, and the demand is high enough to justify those prices. That's not gouging, that's how the market actually works.
If someone had been listing Rubidite at current prices, back when the IC launched... cool, it would have been gone instantly. You don't like what someone's asking for something? Don't pay it. But don't expect anyone to meet your price if it's not worth it.
I remember running across a guy in Stormhaven asking a crafter to make him some level 20 gold gear, and offering 2k for the set. It's not gouging to tell him to take a hike, because the materials produced took way more effort to obtain than that.
We know that jewelry mats are going to be rarer than wood, ore, cloth, and leather. Though we don't know how much rarer. Expecting them to be a bit pricey at release isn't that unreasonable.
On the other hand, we can expect that the raw jewelry mats will be cheaper than you'd expect (at least Copper and Platinum) because of the people who can't use it, harvesting it, then getting confused about what to do with it.0 -
craigr02✭✭✭Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »p.s. you like grind doesn't means everyone else should enjoy grind as well. grind is boring and repetitive.. which normal human being don't enjoy
They don't like grind, but they will put up with grind. They are just apologists. They are ok with whatever Daddy ZOS decides is best for them.
ZOS would have to do something quite extreme to get the "Its ok" crowd to actually grow a backbone. Jewelry trait mats in crown crates perhaps? But honestly, ZOS could slaughter baby khajiit on the front steps of Daggerfall City and people would still defend them.
Perhaps it's just a different approach - what some consider grinding, others would consider playing the game. It all comes down to how critical the timing is, those who are determined to achieve a certain thing in a certain time will consider it a grind focusing on it to get there, others may simply take it all in their stride as just another part of the game without any sense of urgency or, therefore, "grind".
I don't like grinding the gear. I like using the gear. The one thing that prevents me from playing more is the amount of time it takes to farm certain gear items to try unique builds.
Nothing kills the dream harder than coming up with awesome build, then realizing you have to grind through terrible RNG based content to get the one item you need that is the lynchpin of the build.
Having to grind up to max level jewelrycrafting and doing 3 months of research just to craft 9trait gear in jewelry doesn't sound any better.
Then don't.
It really is quite simple. From the sounds of it, you don't seem to enjoy the steady progress towards the distant goal of mastery. You want to be out there and doing things. Excellent, all well and good. No problems here.
So why not leave this system to the people who do like to play that way?
You absolutely don't "have" to grind jewelry crafting. There are people in the community who will learn this new crafting skill because they enjoy it. You know what opportunity that gives you? To play the game in the mean-time and then pay the person some gold to make the jewelry for you. You never have to grind, you don't even need to stop your usual activities.
Support the crafting economy!
I swear, the issue with crafting has always been that ZOS has encouraged a "everyone should have a crafter" mindset. The ZOS makes changes to crafting to help the people who don't like crafting do crafting.
Leave the crafting for the crafters. There are enough of us out there to support the rest with gear and consumables. Really. Just throw some gold our way and you'll get everything you ever need without devoting time, skill points or a character slot.
Wrong, you do have to grind instead this time for gold, and a lot of it, because it wont be cheap.
You are make an absolute statement about a price that hasn't been set, by people who haven't been identified, in a system that hasn't yet been released...
... can I have a go with that crystal ball after you?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. Just to get a general sense of what you are basing this pronouncement on (obviously apart from the massive personal bias), are you:- A regular direct customer of a significant part of the crafting community (say, 51% as a working majority) and buy a significant amount of gear across all categories (armour, weapons)? That might allow you to wager an informed estimate of what they will do.
- A master crafter who has done a large amount of trade and has enough repeat customers to know what the market will stand? Anyone can gouge for high prices once. Getting people to come back requires being reasonable about your charges.
Somehow, I suspect that neither of these situations apply to you, but I am more than happy for your to present evidence to the contrary.
I am both one and two and part of major trading guilds, having played since launch on console. I have also made a lot of gold on things, like when imperial city dropped and vr 16 was a thing, selling material then that you could eventually get in wrothgar and from telvar.
The wrothgar one is a good example since it was the only place other than sewers to get vr 16 mats. It sucked by the way.
I forgot to sdd that i have a minor in economics aswell, so i might not have a crystal ball, but i do have a good idea.
Ah, it becomes clear. An ex-gouger is now worried that they might be on the receiving end of their own tactics.
I can't speak for console, since I have only played on PC (since pre-launch early access), but I wouldn't be too worried. Every guild that I have been part of has had a few crafters, often including myself, who are more than happy to do the work for the cost of the materials.
For the first few weeks, the materials will probably be a bit pricey. Much as Rubedite and Ruby Ash were while people were struggling to make CP160 sets (and people who wanted to maximise profit were making them pay for it). After that, the prices will come down as they have done before.
So the question that actually arises is with regards to your own approach: If you want gold jewelry on day one, then you will end up paying through the nose for it. If you are ok with being patient for a month or so, then experience suggests that prices will be far more reasonable.
The system itself is unlikely to support high prices in perpetuity due to the nature of the demand... but, of course, an econ minor would know that already.
Dude, i wont gouge pricess, because i dont play as much as i used to, you know, work and family, which is why i dont want to have to grind or pay all my gold to upgrade. When i get on i want to focus on content, and i want to gold out everything not because i have to, but because i want to, hence why im buying summerset.
I guess its just hard for you to understand. You probably dont have any real life responsibilities so you can spend all day on your pc, mining nodes or watching chat for deals. So if this does describe you remember you're not the only consumer, zos wants to make money, and its hard to do that on someome like that.
It wont be a big issue for me not to since im in a few trial groups so i already have gold jewelry.
On prices leveling out itll be different than pc. Since we dont have those nice addons prices very considerably, and prices wont be as low. One good thing is there arent as many bots, but a negative to that is not as much supply.
So yeah prices will stay high on console for awhile.
It wasn't until Zos changed nodes to all nodes dropping 160 mats that prices went down. One exception is pig farm and some of those where you could get a lot of upgrade mats quick.Edited by craigr02 on May 3, 2018 11:59AM0 -
DoccEff✭✭✭✭✭Anyone knows how trait-change is going to work? Can I just research robust, and then transmute other jewlery to that trait, for the usual 50 gems?0 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭Grinding in any MMO is all about stablility. It makes changes take time to develop, so the developers can make adjustments to the balance. Since Jewel Crafting of set items is now possible, that has to worked into the equations slowly, so people already playing the game can adjust their builds accordingly.
You may think you want it NOW!!, but if you did, you'd complain just as loudly.0 -
Apache_Kid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Grinding in any MMO is all about stablility. It makes changes take time to develop, so the developers can make adjustments to the balance. Since Jewel Crafting of set items is now possible, that has to worked into the equations slowly, so people already playing the game can adjust their builds accordingly.
You may think you want it NOW!!, but if you did, you'd complain just as loudly.
I find it hard to believe that this is the rationale of a studio that changes the meta every 3 months.
I've never played a MMO where I have had to re-grind and re-gear as frequently as i do in this one.
The extensiveness of this grind is all about driving people to the crown-store for those jewelry research scrolls. Don't work yourself.1 -
Nermy✭✭✭✭✭It still amazes me that people complain of 'grinds' in MMOs...
Why would that surprise you? People hate that aspect. Honestly who looks for a game and is like oh yay, theres going to be a lot of grinding in this game i must get it!
Games show you the funner content, not the boring parts of going arounding grabbing nodes. They also dont tell you that your going to be expected to be in certain sets and hit a specific amount to be allowed in some of the content.
Me as a consumer, i dont want to have to spend months to get something.
I see myself getting JC maxed in a week or two, and having 6 traits researched within 15 days, so that aspect wont be to bad, but what im not looking forward to is farming or paying for the gold upgrades.
It doesn't surprise me, it AMAZES me. MMOs have always had grinds, time and gold sinks. It's part of their very nature. Having said that, ESO is very good at making some grinds more enjoyable than others but they are still there.
For instance, getting all the lorebooks to level the mages guild, the Undaunted dailies, boring fishing achievements. I rest my case...
You have no case to rest because you're missing the basics of why this grind is different than any other crafting mats grind.
Actually I'm not, I am just commenting on why people seem to be amazed that an MMO would have a grind. That's all. I realise jewelry crafting is going to be annoying as hell but it's not better or worse than any other grind I have seen.
@Nermy
Ex-Leader of The Wabbajack [EU EP PvP guild - Now stood down from active duty]BLOOD FOR THE PACT!!!
Nermden - EP Warden, Nerm-in'a'tor - EP Dragon Knight, N'erm - EP Sorcerer, D'arkness - EP Nightblade, Nermy - EP Templar
“Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much.” ― Oscar Wilde
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