Lets get some facts out of the way. They are not gambling.

Turelus

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

It is gambling though

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.
3.
to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):
He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4.
to wager or risk (money or something else of value):
to gamble one's freedom.
5.
to take a chance on; venture; risk:

@Cpt_Teemo I don't disagree with you, however legally by what most of our Governments have decided they're not.

Cpt_Teemo

Turelus wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

It is gambling though

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.
3.
to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):
He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4.
to wager or risk (money or something else of value):
to gamble one's freedom.
5.
to take a chance on; venture; risk:

@Cpt_Teemo I don't disagree with you, however legally by what most of our Governments have decided they're not.

Guess everyone has there own opinion in the end, but I just consider gambling to be any form of risk no matter for profit or not

TequilaFire

Istoppucks wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

US Legal defines gambling as following:

"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. "

A legal definition and a dictionary definition are quite different things.

Loot crate items cant be sold and have no value.

The crowns you bought the loot crates for are purchased with money therefore have value and you risk them on the contents of the crates. What you risk is the crowns purchased with money.

Feanor

It doesn’t matter if it’s gambling or not. What matters is that it’s an option that shouldn’t be taken away for people that use them. It’s simple: You don’t like your chances, don’t buy them.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Yes. You are correct. The thin line that keeps this from falling within the definition of gambling is the fact that don't directly spend money for crown crates. You buy crowns then use the crowns to buy the crates. It's a technicality loophole. IMO this is easily challengeable. All it would take is one example with a combination mmo-casino addiction to prove the point. I'm not dumping on crown crates (b/c it really doesn't matter to me), this is just my most objective opinion.

Ley

You're desperately clinging to a technicality to try to justify your opinion that loot crates are anything other than gambling. Are you by chance a lawyer?

Raraaku

Istoppucks wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

US Legal defines gambling as following:

"A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome. "

A legal definition and a dictionary definition are quite different things.

Loot crate items cant be sold and have no value.

If they have no value, why would people pay money for them in the first place? Value can be subjective.

Turelus

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

It is gambling though

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.
3.
to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):
He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4.
to wager or risk (money or something else of value):
to gamble one's freedom.
5.
to take a chance on; venture; risk:

Cpt_Teemo I don't disagree with you, however legally by what most of our Governments have decided they're not.

Guess everyone has there own opinion in the end, but I just consider gambling to be any form of risk no matter for profit or not

Again, I am with you on this. Just until the big leaders say it is we're not going to get it passed as such.

MajesticHaruki

The OP made a mistake. It IS gambling because you spend real money for something of NO value. Which means that crown crates not only constitute gambling, they also return nothing of value which is worse. Regarding the legal talk, the current legislation has to become inclusive. Either the law makers will change the definition or add more content to the term gambling. Right now we are witnessing something relatively new, that the law hadn't the chance before to restrict.

Wayshuba

Turelus wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

It is gambling though

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.
3.
to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):
He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4.
to wager or risk (money or something else of value):
to gamble one's freedom.
5.
to take a chance on; venture; risk:

@Cpt_Teemo I don't disagree with you, however legally by what most of our Governments have decided they're not.

That is not what most governments have decided. Nowhere has a government declared gaming loot crates are not gambling. What governments have NOT done is catch up to the gaming industry using gambling tactics in video games. That will be forthcoming though.

TequilaFire

Buying crowns for money is akin to buying poker chips for use at the table.

Feanor

MajesticHaruki wrote: »

The OP made a mistake. It IS gambling because you spend real money for something of NO value. Which means that crown crates not only constitute gambling, they also return nothing of value which is worse. Regarding the legal talk, the current legislation has to become inclusive. Either the law makers will change the definition or add more content to the term gambling. Right now we are witnessing something relatively new, that the law hadn't the chance before to restrict.

No value to you maybe. Value is subjective. It would be such a better world if people stopped minding others businesses and telling them constantly how they should live and what’s good or bad for them. It’s even worse with a call to legislation.

Anotherone773

Here is another fact: getting rid of crates, which are best sellers in all games that have them will negatively affect your gameplay. The income from those are used to offset the rising cost of creating and maintaining games in which the players expect more for less.

These games are not cheap to run. This is not a SP game. MMOs have ongoing daily costs that can run tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars...thats PER DAY. That doesnt include development of new features.

Meanwhile players expect to have to pay less and less to play these games. They think The company is being predatory when it is just trying to make a profit providing a service to a bunch of people who think that service should be free.

One off items dont sell as well as crates. Because they are one and done per person who is interested. That means they have to put more effort into creating more items to sell. That is also how you end up with pay 2 win, required subs, $60-$80 chapters and literally every new feature behind a paywall.

This game has to cover an daily operating budget. Those crates allows those people who can afford to spend an extra $20,50,100 a month to cover the cost of that player that invest nothing but the original cost of the game. You know the one with pack mules because they dont have a sub, never buys anything out of the crown store.

So while you complain about how unfair those crates are because you cant get the mount you want... remember that the people that spend a lot of money on those crates, are paying for a lot of people who put very little money towards paying for the upkeep of this game.

Nothing is life is free. Just because one player gets to play for free doesnt mean it free. Someone else is covering his "free" for him and those crates are what does it.

Eyro

Istoppucks wrote: »

Things of value require the ability to sell the item for real money. Eso and most mmorpgs you cannot sell anything from the loot crates for real money therfore they have no value.

So it a scam then? By your deifinition here ZOS honestly wants me to pay real life money for nothing of value. That actually seems worse then gambling and jumps the line to flat out scam.

jedtb16_ESO

strictly speaking the crates are a blind box sale.

the major difference between that and a gamble is that you are not guaranteed a return when you gamble (if you were there would be no bookies or casinos). with a blind box sale you are guaranteed something, it almost certainly won't be what you want but it will be something.

so the op is correct in asserting that they are not a 'gamble' in the traditional meaning.

TequilaFire

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Here is another fact: getting rid of crates, which are best sellers in all games that have them will negatively affect your gameplay. The income from those are used to offset the rising cost of creating and maintaining games in which the players expect more for less.

These games are not cheap to run. This is not a SP game. MMOs have ongoing daily costs that can run tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars...thats PER DAY. That doesnt include development of new features.

Meanwhile players expect to have to pay less and less to play these games. They think The company is being predatory when it is just trying to make a profit providing a service to a bunch of people who think that service should be free.

One off items dont sell as well as crates. Because they are one and done per person who is interested. That means they have to put more effort into creating more items to sell. That is also how you end up with pay 2 win, required subs, $60-$80 chapters and literally every new feature behind a paywall.

This game has to cover an daily operating budget. Those crates allows those people who can afford to spend an extra $20,50,100 a month to cover the cost of that player that invest nothing but the original cost of the game. You know the one with pack mules because they dont have a sub, never buys anything out of the crown store.

So while you complain about how unfair those crates are because you cant get the mount you want... remember that the people that spend a lot of money on those crates, are paying for a lot of people who put very little money towards paying for the upkeep of this game.

Nothing is life is free. Just because one player gets to play for free doesnt mean it free. Someone else is covering his "free" for him and those crates are what does it.

No, they can still have a crown shop, just sell items that players want directly with out the crates.
If quality items people want are in the store they will still make money.

Yzalirk

Istoppucks wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

Those are the only ones facing bans. Their reports went into their findings that these boxes did indeed have manipulative design.

If you have the time there is a full diagnosis of what happened in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8ssMDbmrw

Boy you are so desperate to change this story arent you. Why are you so desperate? Four out of ten were ordered to change because you could sell the items for real money. Those are the facts, stop try to peddle this as anything else you get called out by multiple people every time you do. This trick is up move on.

Did you just say "boy"? What a way to go from being capable to have a discussion to using terms that suggest the opposite.

In defense, it's a common saying in the US as in "boy! It sure is hot today!" or "boy, this is really crazy stuff". Really has nothing to do with age nor gender...just a colloquialism.

You realize the OP is using the term is a negative connotation, right?

Yeah I was question why he continues to post a story multiple times out of context. I didnt call him a "boy".

Next time maybe ill start out like this so i dont offend those like you.

Hello good Sir,

I am wondering why you continue to post a lovely story out of context. I know good Sir you have been told this many times already but could you please make sure you post the full context.

Thank you kind Sir.

Would that have been better for you?

If you want to talk like that, by all means go ahead. Just don’t use condescending terms and pretend like you didn’t.

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Yzalirk wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Istoppucks wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

Those are the only ones facing bans. Their reports went into their findings that these boxes did indeed have manipulative design.

If you have the time there is a full diagnosis of what happened in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8ssMDbmrw

Boy you are so desperate to change this story arent you. Why are you so desperate? Four out of ten were ordered to change because you could sell the items for real money. Those are the facts, stop try to peddle this as anything else you get called out by multiple people every time you do. This trick is up move on.

Did you just say "boy"? What a way to go from being capable to have a discussion to using terms that suggest the opposite.

In defense, it's a common saying in the US as in "boy! It sure is hot today!" or "boy, this is really crazy stuff". Really has nothing to do with age nor gender...just a colloquialism.

You realize the OP is using the term as a negative connotation, right?

Unless I missed something (always possible, I'm multitasking), no I don't. I think it was used as I described above. If I'm wrong, please show me where he's calling T. a "boy".

We're getting a little too nitpicky in the attempt to counter the OP. Probably best to stick to the subject to hand. As such, I'm not going to debate this any more. It's drift and I'm pretty sure that those who want to see it a derogatory aren't going to change their minds.

The way I read them, the comments appeared as condescending to Turelus because the OP has a complete opposite opinion.

Regardless, I completely agree. The thread has derailed quite a bit but it will probably get locked sooner or later.

That is the goal of poster like you. Omg a thread i disagee with hurry everyone spam, derail, report then celebrate when it gets closed.

Actually I want the thread to continue for a bit. I think everyone has great input and some good thoughts I did not think about.

Joshuagm1991

I did not have sexual relations with that woman...


I've enjoyed when I got free crown crates. My partner received the Magma scamp...

Oh wait... uh oh... Casinos give out freebies like this too. I don't really mind, we aren't forced to buy them.

Istoppucks

Wayshuba wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

It is gambling though

verb (used with object), gambled, gambling.
3.
to lose or squander by betting (usually followed by away):
He gambled all his hard-earned money away in one night.
4.
to wager or risk (money or something else of value):
to gamble one's freedom.
5.
to take a chance on; venture; risk:

@Cpt_Teemo I don't disagree with you, however legally by what most of our Governments have decided they're not.

That is not what most governments have decided. Nowhere has a government declared gaming loot crates are not gambling. What governments have NOT done is catch up to the gaming industry using gambling tactics in video games. That will be forthcoming though.

I question this approach. So we have a group of gamers who are now in favor of allowing the government to come in a regulate video games. These same governments have passed, created laws and talked about how video games cause violence.

These people are now in favor of opening the door for government to come in and do as they please with video games ? If you think they will stop at "gambling" good luck.

MajesticHaruki

Feanor wrote: »

MajesticHaruki wrote: »

The OP made a mistake. It IS gambling because you spend real money for something of NO value. Which means that crown crates not only constitute gambling, they also return nothing of value which is worse. Regarding the legal talk, the current legislation has to become inclusive. Either the law makers will change the definition or add more content to the term gambling. Right now we are witnessing something relatively new, that the law hadn't the chance before to restrict.

No value to you maybe. Value is subjective. It would be such a better world if people stopped minding others businesses and telling them constantly how they should live and what’s good or bad for them. It’s even worse with a call to legislation.

Value to the market. Call the stock exchange and tell them about the millions of dollars you have invested in crown crates. Is it a good time to sell or should wait for their value to go up? You GAMBLE and you get PIXELS. If the crown store didn't have crates it would be OK. I want this mount, they charge it 10 dollars, cool. But when they create unique mounts and put them in crates and the chance to get one is 0,16% that's gambling and lawmakers won't ask you if that's how you want to spend your money. Besides try to tell to an addict that he is addicted. He will deny it.

Feanor

TequilaFire wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Here is another fact: getting rid of crates, which are best sellers in all games that have them will negatively affect your gameplay. The income from those are used to offset the rising cost of creating and maintaining games in which the players expect more for less.

These games are not cheap to run. This is not a SP game. MMOs have ongoing daily costs that can run tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars...thats PER DAY. That doesnt include development of new features.

Meanwhile players expect to have to pay less and less to play these games. They think The company is being predatory when it is just trying to make a profit providing a service to a bunch of people who think that service should be free.

One off items dont sell as well as crates. Because they are one and done per person who is interested. That means they have to put more effort into creating more items to sell. That is also how you end up with pay 2 win, required subs, $60-$80 chapters and literally every new feature behind a paywall.

This game has to cover an daily operating budget. Those crates allows those people who can afford to spend an extra $20,50,100 a month to cover the cost of that player that invest nothing but the original cost of the game. You know the one with pack mules because they dont have a sub, never buys anything out of the crown store.

So while you complain about how unfair those crates are because you cant get the mount you want... remember that the people that spend a lot of money on those crates, are paying for a lot of people who put very little money towards paying for the upkeep of this game.

Nothing is life is free. Just because one player gets to play for free doesnt mean it free. Someone else is covering his "free" for him and those crates are what does it.

No, they can still have a crown shop, just sell items that players want directly with out the crates.
If quality items people want are in the store they will still make money.

You must not have been here when the crown store initially launched. No, all the hate for the crates comes from not being able to get a great item for cheap. Besides, going by some of the posters above, you’d still pay real money for no value. Pretty much double standard here.

Aebaradath

Feanor wrote: »

MajesticHaruki wrote: »

The OP made a mistake. It IS gambling because you spend real money for something of NO value. Which means that crown crates not only constitute gambling, they also return nothing of value which is worse. Regarding the legal talk, the current legislation has to become inclusive. Either the law makers will change the definition or add more content to the term gambling. Right now we are witnessing something relatively new, that the law hadn't the chance before to restrict.

No value to you maybe. Value is subjective. It would be such a better world if people stopped minding others businesses and telling them constantly how they should live and what’s good or bad for them. It’s even worse with a call to legislation.

That has so many negative consequences no one can foresee.

Joshuagm1991

I can say I've gotten probably 25-30 crates in the past 2 years and never gotten a cool mount. I did get the wild hunt transformation which is awesome!

DieAlteHexe

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

strictly speaking the crates are a blind box sale.

the major difference between that and a gamble is that you are not guaranteed a return when you gamble (if you were there would be no bookies or casinos). with a blind box sale you are guaranteed something, it almost certainly won't be what you want but it will be something.

so the op is correct in asserting that they are not a 'gamble' in the traditional meaning.

^^^^^^ That is exactly the way I see it. At least with "dips" or crates etc. you get something. Might be too fine a point to be appreciated here but it's the way I see it. No way in hell would I buy a crate if there was a chance to receive an empty one but, that's not what happens. I think some folks just try (too hard at times, in some cases) to get that rare item. THAT is where I'd take ZoS to task. Not the crates themselves but making it very difficult to get that über item. I think it could be ameliorated by having the rares BUT after some length of time, selling for crowns or gold. That way everyone gets a shot but the folks who care about being über have a period of time where they are.

TamrielSaviour215

It depends on what you consider 'value' to be. A lot of people that buy crates are hoping they get something that they dont have to spend a lot of money on. The problem is, when you buy a crap ton of these crates trying to get something of higher perceived 'value' throughout the community, it really does look like gambling. Spending money to MAYBE get something that you have a small chance of obtaining is absolutely gambling lol. If I go put $20 on #17 at a roulette table, I have a 35:1 chance of hitting. I am assuming my odds of hitting something that the community sees 'value' in are far more unobtainable than that. With that said, I don't particularly care because I don't buy them. EVER. Because I have seen them as a gamble. If you want to, go ahead. But you are 100% taking your chances with ACTUAL money to get something that you CLEARLY see as having value. Otherwise, you wouldn't try.

Games like PUBG which now give you mostly crates that you have to spend $2.50 to open are even worse. Because I got a skirt in a free crate and sold it on steam for $120. People buy those crates hoping to hit something they can sell. THAT is gambling.

Just because you are not selling your ESO items on steam, you still find a VALUE to them. It is not monetary but if you didnt see a value in it, you wouldnt spend the money. You cannot tell me there is not value tied to this.

TequilaFire

Feanor wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Here is another fact: getting rid of crates, which are best sellers in all games that have them will negatively affect your gameplay. The income from those are used to offset the rising cost of creating and maintaining games in which the players expect more for less.

These games are not cheap to run. This is not a SP game. MMOs have ongoing daily costs that can run tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars...thats PER DAY. That doesnt include development of new features.

Meanwhile players expect to have to pay less and less to play these games. They think The company is being predatory when it is just trying to make a profit providing a service to a bunch of people who think that service should be free.

One off items dont sell as well as crates. Because they are one and done per person who is interested. That means they have to put more effort into creating more items to sell. That is also how you end up with pay 2 win, required subs, $60-$80 chapters and literally every new feature behind a paywall.

This game has to cover an daily operating budget. Those crates allows those people who can afford to spend an extra $20,50,100 a month to cover the cost of that player that invest nothing but the original cost of the game. You know the one with pack mules because they dont have a sub, never buys anything out of the crown store.

So while you complain about how unfair those crates are because you cant get the mount you want... remember that the people that spend a lot of money on those crates, are paying for a lot of people who put very little money towards paying for the upkeep of this game.

Nothing is life is free. Just because one player gets to play for free doesnt mean it free. Someone else is covering his "free" for him and those crates are what does it.

No, they can still have a crown shop, just sell items that players want directly with out the crates.
If quality items people want are in the store they will still make money.

You must not have been here when the crown store initially launched. No, all the hate for the crates comes from not being able to get a great item for cheap. Besides, going by some of the posters above, you’d still pay real money for no value. Pretty much double standard here.

I have been here since closed beta not that makes a difference.
People paid and will pay directly for items they want.

Wayshuba

Istoppucks wrote: »

I question this approach. So we have a group of gamers who are now in favor of allowing the government to come in a regulate video games. These same governments have passes, created and talked about how video games cause violence.

These people are now in favor of opening the door for government to come in and do as they please with video games ? If you think they will stop at "gambling" good luck.

I would prefer they don't, but at this point this trend has to be stopped or mitigated. When companies like EA and Activision are making more than half their revenue from "loot crates" they have become nothing more than casinos.

More importantly, the industry itself cannot self-regulate itself. The ESRB already says a game that has gambling mechanics in it is gambling. Then they say that loot crates are not gambling. Right.

As someone who is over 50, how they are done doesn't bother me personally. As someone who also has a 12 year old son and seeing how they have effected him - absolutely I want this legislation passed.

As an aside, do you know why the ESRB was created? Because governments were in fact about to regulate video games because violence was being exposed to younger children. By copying the rating system of the movie industry, they helped to appease government regulators before laws were passed. Unfortunately, the same ESRB has failed miserably when it comes to loot crates.

Now you have a representative on a personal crusade - and gaining momentum - to pass legislation defining them as gambling and thus making the game carry an Adult Only rating. Government regulators on personal crusades to pass legislation usually succeed in the long run - at least in the US.

Glockcoma725

Just to trigger all of you im buying crates tonight

Raraaku

Feanor wrote: »

No value to you maybe. Value is subjective. It would be such a better world if people stopped minding others businesses and telling them constantly how they should live and what’s good or bad for them. It’s even worse with a call to legislation.

I know this is an argumentative fallacy but, that's a slippery slope. In that with that mindset, a lot of historically major events in the U.S. that can be considered morally wrong (again subjective, but by majority societal standards of today) would never happen. Basically the entire mid-19th to mid/late 20th centuries major legislative achievements within the U.S.

driosketch

maroite wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

They're not gambling directly no.

However they take a lot of the methods and manipulations used in gambling to create the same effect.
Even the Dutch body looking into them agreed on this during the week.

You keep talking about this but the Dutch only linked 4 games, where the users could Re-SELL items for REAL money, to gambling.

smh

reiverx wrote: »

One day gambling laws will catch up. At the moment, it's not really obvious how destructive these practices are.

Collectible Card Games with randomized booster packs have been around for decades. They are, in every way except for being physical, the same thing as crown crates. (Well and the fact that I don't think you can actually sell stuff from Crown Crates for real money as dupes turn into crystals.)

NO laws have been made against them - Specifically look at Magic:The Gathering. There are cards that are worth thousands of dollars. They were obtained from buying randomized packs of cards.

The only difference is you don't have to leave your house to get crown crates. Although no you can just order most CCG's via websites and have stuff delivered to your door.

TCGs didn't have their Battlefront II moment. It may not be the best way to make laws, but it's these sort of events that have a chance to snowball.