Crystal Tower ... meh or wow?

psychotrip

Vanthras79 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Faulgor wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Even the majority of their towns in the base game locations don't look like believable towns that have built up over time, but like some amateur game designer found some smoothed out plot of land, painted a road texture, and plopped down some identical buildings at varying stages along said road. There's rarely the smart use of space, sense of history through varying building ages, and cultural identity you'd expect to find in towns. Just a clear sense that this was placed here to serve its purpose as a quest hub and a point to sell off junk and repair gear.

The 3 cities they added since launch where they didn't have any previous plan from single player games to adhere to - Orsinium, Abah's Landing, and Clockwork City - all have been immense improvements, though. They've been increasing expectations through their work, whch makes the look of Summerset all the more disappointing and confusing.
Previously I'd have been thrilled to see them have a stab at a pre-imperialized Skyrim again as their skills have improved.
Now, I'm not so sure.

And I wish I had as much faith in BGS.

Darkstorne wrote: »

low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail)

Really? I thought it was a huge step back from what we saw in Hew's Bane, Gold Coast and even Vvardenfell. Might have to check again or wait for more media to be released.

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have. So they decided to go with the most bland, boring interpretation of the lore they can, regardless of whether or not it fits with previous in-game incarnations (seriously, does this look ANYTHING like the same culture that makes elven and glass weapons?) because it's easier to do that than to show some creative integrity.

They know the "transcription error" excuse gives them carte blanche to be as bland as they want. They've taken an interesting aspect of the lore (the unreliable narrators) and turned it into a go-to excuse for artistic bankruptcy.

Even if you think previous accounts are "exaggerations", even if you like what they did with the Altmer, please explain to me why it's okay for them to have one single art style for every city when the Dunmer got 3 unique styles in their expansion.

To those defending this from an artistic and worldbuilding standpoint, please explain to me how this:




fits with this:





Doesn't it fit better with this?:



Please look me in the eye (figuratively) and tell me Summerset looks closer to the altmer style than it does the breton style. If nothing else, the visual inconsistency is laughable.

Well the Bretons were subjugated by the High Elves, so maybe their architecture and customs was inspired and evolved from the elves?

This still doesn't explain why the breton style matches with Summerset BETTER than the altmer style matches with Summerset. Altmer stuff has always been characteized by organic shapes and abstractions of natural symbols. Where is that here? This looks like a completely different culture.

TelvanniWizard

Dracane wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have.

I'll reserve judgement about this until I see what they did in Summerset on the PTS, but this really feels like the crux for me.

I couldn't tell you from what we see in the game what defines Altmeri culture. In fact, ZOS goes out of their way to include Altmer who defy the "stuck up, arrogant, snobbish elf" stereotype, to the point where there is no semblance of cultural influence at all. They have no peculiar style to their speech like Khajiit, Argonians or Dunmer; their clothing is not only derivative but downright ugly, without any particular purpose or expression of cultural heritage (compare to say, Dunmeri bonemold, or scarfs against sand/ashstorms in Dunmer and Redguard styles); their architecture is wholly forgettable fantasy stonework; they don't have a unique social structure like e.g. Orsimer, which is only defined as highly stratified - guess what, so is every other culture in Tamriel, kingdoms wherever you look; they don't have a religion or spiritual practice that can be clearly differentiated from the faith in the Eight Divines, albeit with different names. So on and so on. They are just a basic medieval-ish peasant society.
Ayrenn herself subverts everything we came to expect from Altmer for around 2 decades. She is as generic as a kind-hearted fantasy hero-queen can get. There is nothing alien about her.

I don't know what else to say. It's just sad they apparently have given up on world-building for the most enigmatic race in TES.

Please don't insult Ayrenn, that's completely inappropriate and mean.

Also keep in mind, that we have visited Morrowind and Orsinium and learned about their culture. We have never been to Summerset and have seen little of their culture. Auridon barely counts, because it's known to be much different than the main island and so are the Altmer living there.

When at least something from the datamined Beta Summerset questlines has survived, then you will see a rich and unique culture of the Altmer. We shall wait.

In my opinion Ayrenn is plane character, without any interest. Generic and easy. Lame. Just like altmer architecture from Summerset, as we have seen.

My heart is broken. How can you say things like that, about Ayrenn ? I'm shocked.

Sorry, but that´s my opinion.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I would have expected Summerset proper to be a fancier version of Ayleid (Heartland High Elves, remember) if anything. Especially when they're making much about how the Altmer of Summerset cherish their heritage and never want anything to change...but you remember the area around Firsthold was the first place they landed from Old Elnofey? And the ancient High Elf ruins there look nothing like the buildings shown in the Summerset pics and trailers. The former are almost indistinguishable from the Ayleid ruins, the only real difference seems to be the lighting. They even had an interview question about it:

Nights Knight: Have traditionally been described as the offshoot of ancient Aldmer who conquered Cyrodiil specifically and succumbed to certain forms of ... Padomaic influence, we see that it is described as Ayleid ruins in Auridon itself, and Ayleid is occasionally used to simply mean 'ancestral elf'. Is this distinction between Ayleids and Altmer firmly maintained in ESO? This may seem like abject nerdery, but is it important to the self-perception of Altmer as Anuic, unchanged descendants of the Aldmer?

Phrastus: Well, hmph, any description of Elven ruins in the Summerset Isles as 'Ayleid' is an ignorant mistake! Probably made by someone who can't tell Heartland Elf architecture from High Elf. Look, it's quite simple: if you go into an Ayleid ruin, they're lit by these spooky, eerie blue lights, these-these Varla stones and Welkynd stones. Whereas, if you go into an Altmeri ruin, it will be lit by the golden glow of the Culanda and Malondo stones. So, uh that's one easy way to tell them apart, even if they may look superficially similar. However, despite these superficial similarities, it is incontrovertible that all the various races of the elves derive from Altmeri- Aldmeri root stock. Don't confuse your 'D's with your 'T's. Next!

And a bit in the Improved Emperor's Guide:

The more perceptive of historians (such as Cantaber Congonius of Skingrad) have discerned clear similarities when comparing settlements of the Altmer and Ayleid, unmistakably because they share the same ancestors.

So the Ayleid style is very, very close to the original Aldmeri root as far as architecture style.

Abysswarrior45

myskyrim26 wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

We were expecting this:

We? Who are these "we"? I didn't expect that. I'm happy with what I will get.

Are you really that big of a ***? "We" is everyone who isn't you who doesn't agree with you and agree with the OP. *** stupid question.

Kajuratus

well geez, this is depressing... apparently Hews Bane can afford something that looks like it could be made of glass

Or a closer shot of the dome

psychotrip

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

I would have expected Summerset proper to be a fancier version of Ayleid (Heartland High Elves, remember) if anything. Especially when they're making much about how the Altmer of Summerset cherish their heritage and never want anything to change...but you remember the area around Firsthold was the first place they landed from Old Elnofey? And the ancient High Elf ruins there look nothing like the buildings shown in the Summerset pics and trailers. The former are almost indistinguishable from the Ayleid ruins, the only real difference seems to be the lighting. They even had an interview question about it:

Nights Knight: Have traditionally been described as the offshoot of ancient Aldmer who conquered Cyrodiil specifically and succumbed to certain forms of ... Padomaic influence, we see that it is described as Ayleid ruins in Auridon itself, and Ayleid is occasionally used to simply mean 'ancestral elf'. Is this distinction between Ayleids and Altmer firmly maintained in ESO? This may seem like abject nerdery, but is it important to the self-perception of Altmer as Anuic, unchanged descendants of the Aldmer?

Phrastus: Well, hmph, any description of Elven ruins in the Summerset Isles as 'Ayleid' is an ignorant mistake! Probably made by someone who can't tell Heartland Elf architecture from High Elf. Look, it's quite simple: if you go into an Ayleid ruin, they're lit by these spooky, eerie blue lights, these-these Varla stones and Welkynd stones. Whereas, if you go into an Altmeri ruin, it will be lit by the golden glow of the Culanda and Malondo stones. So, uh that's one easy way to tell them apart, even if they may look superficially similar. However, despite these superficial similarities, it is incontrovertible that all the various races of the elves derive from Altmeri- Aldmeri root stock. Don't confuse your 'D's with your 'T's. Next!

And a bit in the Improved Emperor's Guide:

The more perceptive of historians (such as Cantaber Congonius of Skingrad) have discerned clear similarities when comparing settlements of the Altmer and Ayleid, unmistakably because they share the same ancestors.

So the Ayleid style is very, very close to the original Aldmeri root as far as architecture style.

They're not even being consistent within their own interpretation of the world.

Personally I wouldn't have wanted something identical to ayleid stuff, but definitely something closer to that thematically. I also understand (and support!) their decision to make mainland Summerset different from Auridon. An entire country shouldn't be completely homogeneous. But yeah, the argument supporters are making about "different interpretations" and "their vision as artists" really falls apart when you realize the developers are contradicting themselves within the span of a single game.

Kajuratus wrote: »

well geez, this is depressing... apparently Hews Bane can afford something that looks like it could be made of glass

Or a closer shot of the dome

I'm going to quote this whenever someone claims "the engine can't do glass".

Kajuratus

you know, the patterns on the dome almost remind me of insect wing like architecture

EDIT: Mosaic, thats the word I was looking for, thanks @Faulgor

Faulgor

Kajuratus wrote: »

you know, the patterns on the dome almost remind me of insect wing like architecture

It's a simple mosaic, which is precisely the "mundane" interpretation of Alinor's description I would have expected, but we can't even have that. It would be the simplest thing - even for the Altmer! - to cover their buildings with plaster and colourful mosaics. But no, grey stone blocks everywhere.

Being reminded of that building in Abah's Landing makes me even more upset, lol.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Kajuratus wrote: »

you know, the patterns on the dome almost remind me of insect wing like architecture

I was thinking of the Ayleid metal grates, doors etc.

Ohtimbar

This reminds me of when Oblivion turned the dense jungles of Cyrodiil into a bland lotr theme park. That said, Oblivion was still fun to play and I suspect Summerset will be as well. Here's hoping the entire zone isn't as banal as what we've been shown so far.

Violynne

Kajuratus wrote: »

well geez, this is depressing... apparently Hews Bane can afford something that looks like it could be made of glass

This is where I'm at a loss. I never expected the "Crystal Tower" to be made entirely of crystal, but I did expect it to have the attributes why everyone in Tamriel would call it the crystal tower.

To be fair, the image isn't detailed so there could be shards of crystal outlining the entire structure, but a straight up phallic isn't what anyone would picture to describe tower.

I'm guessing an actual rendering of the Crystal Tower would blow the budget of the art department and systems everywhere would crash due to the loss of fps.

It could be worse. The entire structure could be covered with the never ending fog plaguing this game.

Zeni0s

Fiew Eras latter



Meh.

Knootewoot

I'm still waiting for the trailer where it takes of and flies into space.

Heka Cain

You do realise that men, women and children are dying every day all over the world in front of their PCs and consoles in the worst possible ways imaginable right?

Faulgor

I did a very quick mockup of an Alinor tower with an organic mosaic instead of the boring grey stonework. In fact I overlayed it with an actual insect wing.

It's not much because I couldn't be bothered to do the whole city, but I think even this would be an improvement.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Just want to add my 2 drakes concerning the "Crystal" tower debate.
To do that let's travel to the beginning..... "Tower Zero".

The Direnni Tower, also known as the Adamantine Tower, Ada-mantia, Ur-Tower and Tower Zero

This is the Oldest Structure on Nirn, built by the Aedra, to hold the trial of Lorkan.
When the Aldmer first settled Summerset Isles, they were still trying to emulate their ancestors. (Aedra translated into Aldmeris means "Our ancestors).

The Crystal Tower was the first towers erected in emulation of Ada-Mantia,

So when the "Heart-Land Elves" setteled Cyrodiil, they also built their "Homage to Ada-Mantia",

The Ayleids built their White Gold Tower to reflect Tower Zero, Ada-Mantia, in the center of Tamriel, in order to best echo and even amplify Ada-Mantia's mystical properties

So, with that in mind, this is the Derenii Tower in Daggerfall, so should all the towers look like this??


But in ESO, the Derenii Tower looks like this,

Which looks a LOT like the White Gold Tower in Oblivion,


The terms "Crystal" and "White Gold" are just fancifull adjectives to describe their appearance
& ideology, not literal building materiel.

As far as the architecture and cities of Summerset, I will wait on PTS and/or Beta and see before I make a decision on the debate. It might be great!
But kudos to ZoS for bringing us this and moving forward with ESO and our exploration of Tamriel and hopefully someday ALL of Nirn!
Huzzah!

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Faulgor wrote: »

I did a very quick mockup of an Alinor tower with an organic mosaic instead of the boring grey stonework. In fact I overlayed it with an actual insect wing.

It's not much because I couldn't be bothered to do the whole city, but I think even this would be an improvement.

I may be one of the few but i found your interpretation ugly and prefer zos one way more

Aliyavana

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I did a very quick mockup of an Alinor tower with an organic mosaic instead of the boring grey stonework. In fact I overlayed it with an actual insect wing.

It's not much because I couldn't be bothered to do the whole city, but I think even this would be an improvement.

I may be one of the few but i found your interpretation ugly and prefer zos one way more

Too bright, I prefer

XomRhoK wrote: »

There is no chance that 3D models of the building will be redone, but ZOS can change some textures. For example they can make roof tiles made of glass, that used in armor.
It can be only on major buildings:

Or at all buildings:

I think it's pretty easy to do, and it will add uniqueness to the Summerset towns and will fit lore: "made from glass or insect wings" and "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall".

Ajaxandriel

Kajuratus wrote: »

well geez, this is depressing... apparently Hews Bane can afford something that looks like it could be made of glass

Or a closer shot of the dome

I feel like the altmer should have got more of the Redguard architecture, rather than the breton.
Redguards have mosaic, their Palaces have mosaic.

Even the Altmer background architecture from Arena were suck out of the altmer lore to become Redguard...

To recolor the roof skins, some glass shards model as a mosaic would fit

psychotrip

So just to reiterate the basic problems here.

1. Zenimax chose the most boring interpretation possible. They've turned the "unreliable narrator" trope into a retro-active justification for any creatively bankrupt decision they make.
2. The "in-game engines can't handle it" argument falls apart when you see what they did with Artaeum. Or what they did with Valenwood (which isn't perfect but a hell of a lot more interesting than anything in Summerset). It's not a matter of engine limitations, but choice.
3. This interpretation is completely inconsistent from everything we've seen in-game so far. How the hell is this the same culture that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? It looks closer to a breton city.
4. They're only giving Summerset one single building style, while Morrowind got three. It seems they ran out of ideas pretty fast. (Please, someone try and defend this)
5. Even though they kept repeating how Altmer obsess over the past and preservation and keeping things the same, the isle is littered with crumbling ruins, even in the middle of their towns. Are ZOS's own words "transcription errors" now? (Please, someone try and explain this)

magictucktuck

well if it is a ***.... it is impressive..

magictucktuck

Violynne wrote: »

Kajuratus wrote: »

well geez, this is depressing... apparently Hews Bane can afford something that looks like it could be made of glass

This is where I'm at a loss. I never expected the "Crystal Tower" to be made entirely of crystal, but I did expect it to have the attributes why everyone in Tamriel would call it the crystal tower.

To be fair, the image isn't detailed so there could be shards of crystal outlining the entire structure, but a straight up phallic isn't what anyone would picture to describe tower.

I'm guessing an actual rendering of the Crystal Tower would blow the budget of the art department and systems everywhere would crash due to the loss of fps.

It could be worse. The entire structure could be covered with the never ending fog plaguing this game.

well isnt the very top a giant crystal? maybe im wrong but it looks like that if you zoom in

ZOS_Mika

Since a very similar thread on this subject matter already exists, we have decided to close this one down. Thank you for your understanding.