Crystal Tower ... meh or wow?

TelvanniWizard

psychotrip wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

Again. I did not state at any point that I'd imagined the tower made entirely of crystal. The first picture in my post is meant to represent how magnificent and impossibly beautiful we were expecting it. What irks me is the shape and simplicity! I mean, it's a concrete cucumber with a corset. I can take the cities and their romantic gothic architecture but where's the light being reflected and refracted to the point you are grateful for sunset? Why one of the most important structues in Summerset is so unimaginative? I mean, even if it was there for millennia, I'm sure the Altmer would have improved on it over time. I'd rather it looked like the Disney castle cities, with arches and windows and intricate carvings.

I think I would be way more happy if he entire architecture of summerset was simply the Ayelid architecture but in its prime. So organic, magical and delicate.

I still hope that when the chapter hits PTS we'll be able to dispel all the worries about art direction.

Exactly. People are completely missing the point. This isn’t a matter of our expectations being too high to ever satisfy. This isn’t just a matter of different accounts and unreliable narrators.

The problem is that none of this is consistent with anything we’ve seen from the altmer in-game. Sorry, but you can’t “transcription error” your way out of this one.

Tell me guys: does this style even look consistent with anything we’ve actually seen from the altmer before? Not talking about “unreliable narrator” stuff this time, but things we’ve actually seen within the elder scrolls universe?






Elven stuff has always had this weird blend of deliberate angles and abstract, organic shapes. What happened to all that?


Let’s not forget what the “elven style” looked like in Morrowind (yes, the glass armor in Morrowind was made by the altmer, according to the in-game dialogue and the fact that altmer own most of the glass mines in the game)




Also, this begs the question: where are the altmer getting all this malachite? It’s supposed to be volcanic glass. And yet the Summerset in this game doesn’t seem to have any volcanoes, and it’s not like Skyrim where we can assume a lot of the mountains once displayed volcanic activity. Judging by their resources, I always imagined Summerset as some sort of hot, hawaiian-esque volcanic island.

But I digress, does any of this look compatible with the supposed “real” Summerset? Does it look like the same culture even made this stuff? It’s more suited to bretons imo.




To those pulling the “exaggerations / unreliable narrator” card: No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".

We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they're forced to do otherwise (like with Morrowind).

I swear, Zenimax seems so afraid to take artistic risks. Is gray stone really the best the altmer can do? Medieval humans in real life had more advanced, colorful, and creative structures than this. Come on. If humans did this:



The Altmer should be capable of something, anything more. This is supposedly a civilization so advanced that it could only be conquered by a giant robot god, and yet none of that advancement is showcased here.

I can’t imagine showing ZOS something like the image above:

"Hark! What is this lunacy? What strange race of monster built this? There's nothing realistic about this at all! And why is there so much color? Where's all the gray? Madness, I say! It's like these people are making buildings out of poetry!"
- Zenimax, probably.

This decision to turn Summerset into yet another old-timey european landscape just reeks of creative bankruptcy.

At this point, they so clearly use the “unreliable narrator” trope as a selective crutch to retroactively justify their decisions. Then we’re stuck with the most boring interpretations possible. It’s just so see-through at this point. They hide behind transcription errors when they simply don’t want to embrace the more unique aspects of this IP.

If you dont believe that they either ran out of time, ideas, or both, then riddle me this: why, after Morrowind released with at least 3 unique art styles for the dunmer, are the altmer stuck with 1? That’s right, all the cities in Summerset use the exact same models. Unlike with Morrowind, they can’t ride the coat-tails of past games this time. This time, they had to do the artistic leg-work themselves, and this is what they come up with. Jesus.

Nice post but:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4971821/#Comment_4971821

ParaNostram

Could have been much worse ya'll, this is the oldest image of the Crystal Tower I have seen. I swear, this game's forums will complain about anything.

TelvanniWizard

ParaNostram wrote: »

Could have been much worse ya'll, this is the oldest image of the Crystal Tower I have seen. I swear, this game's forums will complain about anything.

At least the roofs seem made of malachite (i.e. crystal).

Vanthras79

I feared the crystal tower would have looked like White Gold Tower. I actually am Impressed with it's design. But I was hoping for more of an elfish tough to the architecture, not the mundane interpretation by ZOS.

starkerealm

psychotrip wrote: »

grizzledcroc wrote: »

one thing I will miss from it's original design is it's open walkways , I can imagine how windy it must be.

This is not canonical. It's from Arena. The visuals of Arena are in no way canonical.

When that game was made, khajiit and argonians were humans, right. Elves weren't called "mer". They were called moriche, boiche, and salache.

When that game was made, Imperials didn't even exist. The Imperial city was full of what looked like redguards with a totally different naming scheme (Yagarath, Sakirphang etc).

Arena and Daggerfall were made before The Elder Scrolls lore had officially solidified. Even the devs admit the pre-Redguard/Morrowind days were just generic DnD stand-ins. The lore wasn't fully conceived until 1998 with the release of the first "pocket guide to the empire and its environs" book.

So in short, we've never really seen the Crystal Tower before, nor have we been to Summerset. Side note: also note that the Crystal Tower seems to be next to a desert canyon. So, once again, that's not really consistent with the current lore.

Oddly enough, no, Arena is still considered canon. Which is also why there's all that stuff in the lore about different Khajiit breeds, even though we've seen almost no evidence of that in the single player games beyond their visuals changing from game to game. As I recall, you can still find info on the Khajiit variation from Arena in ESO.

Arena used procedural systems to generate Imperial names. Right from the beginning, they were clearly considered a different race, even if they were non-playable before Morrowind.

psychotrip

starkerealm wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

grizzledcroc wrote: »

one thing I will miss from it's original design is it's open walkways , I can imagine how windy it must be.

This is not canonical. It's from Arena. The visuals of Arena are in no way canonical.

When that game was made, khajiit and argonians were humans, right. Elves weren't called "mer". They were called moriche, boiche, and salache.

When that game was made, Imperials didn't even exist. The Imperial city was full of what looked like redguards with a totally different naming scheme (Yagarath, Sakirphang etc).

Arena and Daggerfall were made before The Elder Scrolls lore had officially solidified. Even the devs admit the pre-Redguard/Morrowind days were just generic DnD stand-ins. The lore wasn't fully conceived until 1998 with the release of the first "pocket guide to the empire and its environs" book.

So in short, we've never really seen the Crystal Tower before, nor have we been to Summerset. Side note: also note that the Crystal Tower seems to be next to a desert canyon. So, once again, that's not really consistent with the current lore.

Oddly enough, no, Arena is still considered canon. Which is also why there's all that stuff in the lore about different Khajiit breeds, even though we've seen almost no evidence of that in the single player games beyond their visuals changing from game to game. As I recall, you can still find info on the Khajiit variation from Arena in ESO.

Arena used procedural systems to generate Imperial names. Right from the beginning, they were clearly considered a different race, even if they were non-playable before Morrowind.

The story of Arena and Daggerfall are canon, and they adapted the khajiit discrepancies into the lore retro-actively. Even so, there's no "human" khajiit like there was in Arena. There are ones that look elven (Ohmes), but not human. The names for the elves are completely non-canonical as well. The books that used to call them the old names have been edited. There's even an entire, rather long, book (King Edward) from Daggerfall that was cut from subsequent games because it establishes a ton of lore that's entirely contradicted now (dark elves being the best smiths in the world, high elves living in giant trees.)

Like you said, everyone in Arena has a procedurally generated name, but "Imperial" names in Arena sounded far different from the greco-roman names we're used to (Azadred, Skulrath, etc). Seriously the people in Arena's Imperial City are completely different from the "Imperials" we know today. It's actually pretty interesting, because I'm curious about the "original" lore was for these people.

So in short, the narratives of Arena and Daggerfall are canon, but so much of the lore has just been completely revamped. I don't think it's worth trying to reconcile the massive world differences between the pre and post-Redguard days. I just accept that the lore hadn't fully solidified yet, and I'm more willing to accept "retcons" from the older games than I am with with the newer ones.

Ilithyania

I like the arhitecture and the tower, its different then I expected.

a crystal tower, that looks like its made out of crystals, how original

OtarTheMad

Vanya wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I agree with @Vanya 1,000%. (which is also why ZOS shouldn't make a necromancer class, it won't live up to players dreams no matter how good it is)

Plus the Crystal Tower is called that because it holds a powerful crystal called Transparent Law at the top.

Indeed! Otar The Mad , wasn't he one of the Eight Dragon Priests from The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. Yea! Within the Ruins of Ragnvald! Shor's Bones! It brings memories. *Uses and Elder Scroll* Gets Zapped by Lighting staff xD

I did not know about the Crystal. I haven't read at all. Thanks for the insight

Yeah he was, my second favorite Priest behind Krosis. Such fun!

Yeah the ESO website told me about that crystal.

psychotrip

Ilithyania wrote: »

I like the arhitecture and the tower, its different then I expected.

a crystal tower, that looks like its made out of crystals, how original

Missing the point, once again. As stated numerous times in this thread, no one is angry because the crystal tower isn't made of crystal. We're angry because it looks totally bland, plain, and uninspired.

MasterSpatula

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Could have been much worse ya'll, this is the oldest image of the Crystal Tower I have seen. I swear, this game's forums will complain about anything.

At least the roofs seem made of malachite (i.e. crystal).

How can you tell? That image aspires to potato-quality.

TelvanniWizard

MasterSpatula wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Could have been much worse ya'll, this is the oldest image of the Crystal Tower I have seen. I swear, this game's forums will complain about anything.

At least the roofs seem made of malachite (i.e. crystal).

How can you tell? That image aspires to potato-quality.

Well, they are bright green

But, more seriously, as has already been said, the problem is not the crystal stuff (though according to lore some crystal would be nice), but the fact that this new altmer architecture isn´t anything new, nor fascinating, but a copy of breton architecture. We expected something truly unique, a revolutionary design. We got Daggerfall 2.0.

Banana

Excellent. Hopefully no mud huts in the entire zone

Darkstorne

psychotrip wrote: »

Except ESO is canon. So this is Summerset now. There's no way Bethesda, even without actually controlling Zenimax, would sign off on this if they didn't like it. These companies meet at least once a year to discuss what they're working on (according to a recent interview with Todd Howard). This wasn't sprung on them out of the blue, and they're not going to split the canon into two branches. This is the super advanced society that only a giant robot god could conquer. This is Summerset.

Don't worry, because that logic doesn't hold up. I'm sure the events of this game will be considered canon to some degree, and I have no doubt they talk about visual design with Todd's team, but don't forget this is the same ESO that cut Redoran controlled Morrowind (and the 4th era's capital city of Blacklight) off the map entirely. Yet that is obviously not lore. This is the game that changed all architecture in mainland Morrowind to be Indoril, yet that is obviously not lore. This is the game that decided Direnni tower would be a copy/paste model of White Gold Tower; that decided every town in High Rock would use exactly the same slate blue roof houses and have exactly the same statues in front of all their identical castles; that decided Ayleid ruins would appear in every single province in Tamriel despite existing lore stating otherwise.

At some point you have to look at design decisions and recognise them as necessities of development and time constraints. For the same reason you'd look at the scale of playable areas in games like Skyrim and Oblivion and would be crazy to think "This is how the game world's size is presented, so it MUST be canon." I'm as upset as anyone else that the Crystal Tower and Altmer architecture is bland as ****, but that doesn't mean it's canon. The thing to remember is that if TES6 isn't set on the Summerset Isle, then even if TES7 is that will be so far away no one will care about how ESO presented the Isles by then. We'll all be far more excited about how capable the PlayStation 6 will be at rendering open world environments without the same engine restrictions that ESO had.

ESO hasn't managed to create Skyrim anywhere near as beautifully as BGS did. Their represenation of Cyrodiil (especially the great forest) is an absolute joke, presumably for large scale PVP requirements. And even their representation of Vvardenfell doesn't hold a candle to TES3 with graphical mods. Because it's not just about visuals, but environment design. Even the majority of their towns in the base game locations don't look like believable towns that have built up over time, but like some amateur game designer found some smoothed out plot of land, painted a road texture, and plopped down some identical buildings at varying stages along said road. There's rarely the smart use of space, sense of history through varying building ages, and cultural identity you'd expect to find in towns. Just a clear sense that this was placed here to serve its purpose as a quest hub and a point to sell off junk and repair gear. So don't sweat it when this same team can't deliver on some of the most unique architectural lore in the series - there's a whole lot of things they can't deliver on when it comes to world design. Luckily, the gameplay is enjoyable enough to make up for most of it, and when it comes time for Todd's team to venture to Summerset, they won't be even remotely forced to stick to such generic designs just because the fan fiction team went here first.

Ectheliontnacil

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Darkstorne

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Basically, yes But I really should clarify that I genuinely think ZOS' art team do an incredible job with the engine they've been given. It's just... this thing was designed specifically to target laptops and low end PCs, following WoW's exact path of success. I'm sure they massively regret that now that they're mostly targeting mid range PCs and current gen consoles. But it seems to be a big reason for why we have issues like crazy short draw distances and load-screen separated zones (in an Elder Scrolls game of all things), low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail), and an engine that struggles to deal with basic transparency and alpha layers which is making itself very clear in this architecture direction for Alinor and the Crystal Tower. Though the suggestion for malachite roofs is a fantastic compromise.

So while I think it's fine to dismiss ESO's visual direction entirely, that's not because the art team sucks, but because the engine they've been given does. Even Valenwood, the most lore-broken zone, probably looks as bright and vibrant as it does because the game was designed to force all EP players to spend 60%+ of their time levelling here, and the idea of forcing players to level for that long in a zone as maze-like as Valenwood should be, with a canopy so high the ground level rarely sees any sunlight... just wouldn't have been feasible. I really wish they'd left the centre of Valenwood for a later expansion now we have One Tamriel though

TelvanniWizard

Darkstorne wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Basically, yes But I really should clarify that I genuinely think ZOS' art team do an incredible job with the engine they've been given. It's just... this thing was designed specifically to target laptops and low end PCs, following WoW's exact path of success. I'm sure they massively regret that now that they're mostly targeting mid range PCs and current gen consoles. But it seems to be a big reason for why we have issues like crazy short draw distances and load-screen separated zones (in an Elder Scrolls game of all things), low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail), and an engine that struggles to deal with basic transparency and alpha layers which is making itself very clear in this architecture direction for Alinor and the Crystal Tower. Though the suggestion for malachite roofs is a fantastic compromise.

So while I think it's fine to dismiss ESO's visual direction entirely, that's not because the art team sucks, but because the engine they've been given does. Even Valenwood, the most lore-broken zone, probably looks as bright and vibrant as it does because the game was designed to force all EP players to spend 60%+ of their time levelling here, and the idea of forcing players to level for that long in a zone as maze-like as Valenwood should be, with a canopy so high the ground level rarely sees any sunlight... just wouldn't have been feasible. I really wish they'd left the centre of Valenwood for a later expansion now we have One Tamriel though

It´s a complete shame. Valenwood in not a forest, nor a rainforest. It´s a grove with sparse trees and pleasant prairies. There isn´t a single forest in all of Tamriel.

Faulgor

Darkstorne wrote: »

Even the majority of their towns in the base game locations don't look like believable towns that have built up over time, but like some amateur game designer found some smoothed out plot of land, painted a road texture, and plopped down some identical buildings at varying stages along said road. There's rarely the smart use of space, sense of history through varying building ages, and cultural identity you'd expect to find in towns. Just a clear sense that this was placed here to serve its purpose as a quest hub and a point to sell off junk and repair gear.

The 3 cities they added since launch where they didn't have any previous plan from single player games to adhere to - Orsinium, Abah's Landing, and Clockwork City - all have been immense improvements, though. They've been increasing expectations through their work, whch makes the look of Summerset all the more disappointing and confusing.
Previously I'd have been thrilled to see them have a stab at a pre-imperialized Skyrim again as their skills have improved.
Now, I'm not so sure.

And I wish I had as much faith in BGS.

Darkstorne wrote: »

low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail)

Really? I thought it was a huge step back from what we saw in Hew's Bane, Gold Coast and even Vvardenfell. Might have to check again or wait for more media to be released.

MercTheMage

Oh god... I really hope they reconsider and change the model

psychotrip

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Faulgor wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Even the majority of their towns in the base game locations don't look like believable towns that have built up over time, but like some amateur game designer found some smoothed out plot of land, painted a road texture, and plopped down some identical buildings at varying stages along said road. There's rarely the smart use of space, sense of history through varying building ages, and cultural identity you'd expect to find in towns. Just a clear sense that this was placed here to serve its purpose as a quest hub and a point to sell off junk and repair gear.

The 3 cities they added since launch where they didn't have any previous plan from single player games to adhere to - Orsinium, Abah's Landing, and Clockwork City - all have been immense improvements, though. They've been increasing expectations through their work, whch makes the look of Summerset all the more disappointing and confusing.
Previously I'd have been thrilled to see them have a stab at a pre-imperialized Skyrim again as their skills have improved.
Now, I'm not so sure.

And I wish I had as much faith in BGS.

Darkstorne wrote: »

low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail)

Really? I thought it was a huge step back from what we saw in Hew's Bane, Gold Coast and even Vvardenfell. Might have to check again or wait for more media to be released.

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have. So they decided to go with the most bland, boring interpretation of the lore they can, regardless of whether or not it fits with previous in-game incarnations (seriously, does this look ANYTHING like the same culture that makes elven and glass weapons?) because it's easier to do that than to show some creative integrity.

They know the "transcription error" excuse gives them carte blanche to be as bland as they want. They've taken an interesting aspect of the lore (the unreliable narrators) and turned it into a go-to excuse for artistic bankruptcy.

Even if you think previous accounts are "exaggerations", even if you like what they did with the Altmer, please explain to me why it's okay for them to have one single art style for every city when the Dunmer got 3 unique styles in their expansion.

To those defending this from an artistic and worldbuilding standpoint, please explain to me how this:




fits with this:





Doesn't it fit better with this?:



Please look me in the eye (figuratively) and tell me Summerset looks closer to the altmer style than it does the breton style. If nothing else, the visual inconsistency is laughable.

Faulgor

psychotrip wrote: »

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have.

I'll reserve judgement about this until I see what they did in Summerset on the PTS, but this really feels like the crux for me.

I couldn't tell you from what we see in the game what defines Altmeri culture. In fact, ZOS goes out of their way to include Altmer who defy the "stuck up, arrogant, snobbish elf" stereotype, to the point where there is no semblance of cultural influence at all. They have no peculiar style to their speech like Khajiit, Argonians or Dunmer; their clothing is not only derivative but downright ugly, without any particular purpose or expression of cultural heritage (compare to say, Dunmeri bonemold, or scarfs against sand/ashstorms in Dunmer and Redguard styles); their architecture is wholly forgettable fantasy stonework; they don't have a unique social structure like e.g. Orsimer, which is only defined as highly stratified - guess what, so is every other culture in Tamriel, kingdoms wherever you look; they don't have a religion or spiritual practice that can be clearly differentiated from the faith in the Eight Divines, albeit with different names. So on and so on. They are just a basic medieval-ish peasant society.
Ayrenn herself subverts everything we came to expect from Altmer for around 2 decades. She is as generic as a kind-hearted fantasy hero-queen can get. There is nothing alien about her.

I don't know what else to say. It's just sad they apparently have given up on world-building for the most enigmatic race in TES.

terrordactyl1971

A concrete ***?

Violynne

red_emu wrote: »

Like big, giant concrete .... cucumber!

That's a nice way of putting it, though that's not what the word I'd use if it didn't lead to a ban.

The_Lex

psychotrip wrote: »

When I first saw this picture, I thought that the top ramparts of the castle (the part near the top...hewn into the mountain) looked a lot like fort Dawnguard from Skyrim.

Dracane

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have.

I'll reserve judgement about this until I see what they did in Summerset on the PTS, but this really feels like the crux for me.

I couldn't tell you from what we see in the game what defines Altmeri culture. In fact, ZOS goes out of their way to include Altmer who defy the "stuck up, arrogant, snobbish elf" stereotype, to the point where there is no semblance of cultural influence at all. They have no peculiar style to their speech like Khajiit, Argonians or Dunmer; their clothing is not only derivative but downright ugly, without any particular purpose or expression of cultural heritage (compare to say, Dunmeri bonemold, or scarfs against sand/ashstorms in Dunmer and Redguard styles); their architecture is wholly forgettable fantasy stonework; they don't have a unique social structure like e.g. Orsimer, which is only defined as highly stratified - guess what, so is every other culture in Tamriel, kingdoms wherever you look; they don't have a religion or spiritual practice that can be clearly differentiated from the faith in the Eight Divines, albeit with different names. So on and so on. They are just a basic medieval-ish peasant society.
Ayrenn herself subverts everything we came to expect from Altmer for around 2 decades. She is as generic as a kind-hearted fantasy hero-queen can get. There is nothing alien about her.

I don't know what else to say. It's just sad they apparently have given up on world-building for the most enigmatic race in TES.

Please don't insult Ayrenn, that's completely inappropriate and mean.

Also keep in mind, that we have visited Morrowind and Orsinium and learned about their culture. We have never been to Summerset and have seen little of their culture. Auridon barely counts, because it's known to be much different than the main island and so are the Altmer living there.

When at least something from the datamined Beta Summerset questlines has survived, then you will see a rich and unique culture of the Altmer. We shall wait.

Vanthras79

psychotrip wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

So long as Bethesda Game Studios ignore all of ESO's visual direction when they get around to these provinces, I can live with it. This game will just always feel like fan fiction.

Zos rekt!

Faulgor wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Even the majority of their towns in the base game locations don't look like believable towns that have built up over time, but like some amateur game designer found some smoothed out plot of land, painted a road texture, and plopped down some identical buildings at varying stages along said road. There's rarely the smart use of space, sense of history through varying building ages, and cultural identity you'd expect to find in towns. Just a clear sense that this was placed here to serve its purpose as a quest hub and a point to sell off junk and repair gear.

The 3 cities they added since launch where they didn't have any previous plan from single player games to adhere to - Orsinium, Abah's Landing, and Clockwork City - all have been immense improvements, though. They've been increasing expectations through their work, whch makes the look of Summerset all the more disappointing and confusing.
Previously I'd have been thrilled to see them have a stab at a pre-imperialized Skyrim again as their skills have improved.
Now, I'm not so sure.

And I wish I had as much faith in BGS.

Darkstorne wrote: »

low poly rocks and flora models (which is one of the most impressive details from Summerset by the way - a huge step up in mountain/cliff detail and tree detail)

Really? I thought it was a huge step back from what we saw in Hew's Bane, Gold Coast and even Vvardenfell. Might have to check again or wait for more media to be released.

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have. So they decided to go with the most bland, boring interpretation of the lore they can, regardless of whether or not it fits with previous in-game incarnations (seriously, does this look ANYTHING like the same culture that makes elven and glass weapons?) because it's easier to do that than to show some creative integrity.

They know the "transcription error" excuse gives them carte blanche to be as bland as they want. They've taken an interesting aspect of the lore (the unreliable narrators) and turned it into a go-to excuse for artistic bankruptcy.

Even if you think previous accounts are "exaggerations", even if you like what they did with the Altmer, please explain to me why it's okay for them to have one single art style for every city when the Dunmer got 3 unique styles in their expansion.

To those defending this from an artistic and worldbuilding standpoint, please explain to me how this:




fits with this:





Doesn't it fit better with this?:



Please look me in the eye (figuratively) and tell me Summerset looks closer to the altmer style than it does the breton style. If nothing else, the visual inconsistency is laughable.

Well the Bretons were subjugated by the High Elves, so maybe their architecture and customs was inspired and evolved from the elves?

TelvanniWizard

Dracane wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have.

I'll reserve judgement about this until I see what they did in Summerset on the PTS, but this really feels like the crux for me.

I couldn't tell you from what we see in the game what defines Altmeri culture. In fact, ZOS goes out of their way to include Altmer who defy the "stuck up, arrogant, snobbish elf" stereotype, to the point where there is no semblance of cultural influence at all. They have no peculiar style to their speech like Khajiit, Argonians or Dunmer; their clothing is not only derivative but downright ugly, without any particular purpose or expression of cultural heritage (compare to say, Dunmeri bonemold, or scarfs against sand/ashstorms in Dunmer and Redguard styles); their architecture is wholly forgettable fantasy stonework; they don't have a unique social structure like e.g. Orsimer, which is only defined as highly stratified - guess what, so is every other culture in Tamriel, kingdoms wherever you look; they don't have a religion or spiritual practice that can be clearly differentiated from the faith in the Eight Divines, albeit with different names. So on and so on. They are just a basic medieval-ish peasant society.
Ayrenn herself subverts everything we came to expect from Altmer for around 2 decades. She is as generic as a kind-hearted fantasy hero-queen can get. There is nothing alien about her.

I don't know what else to say. It's just sad they apparently have given up on world-building for the most enigmatic race in TES.

Please don't insult Ayrenn, that's completely inappropriate and mean.

Also keep in mind, that we have visited Morrowind and Orsinium and learned about their culture. We have never been to Summerset and have seen little of their culture. Auridon barely counts, because it's known to be much different than the main island and so are the Altmer living there.

When at least something from the datamined Beta Summerset questlines has survived, then you will see a rich and unique culture of the Altmer. We shall wait.

In my opinion Ayrenn is plane character, without any interest. Generic and easy. Lame. Just like altmer architecture from Summerset, as we have seen.

ThinkerOfThings

Wow, seems like a lot of people in this thread hate this game. I wonder how many of them actually play it?

OrdoHermetica

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Wow, seems like a lot of people in this thread hate this game. I wonder how many of them actually play it?

You can criticize parts of a game and still enjoy it overall. You can be disappointed with something but still support it. And criticism is important for developers; it allows them to see what is and isn't working from the perspective of their player base.

This whole "you either like everything about this game or you clearly hate it" binary thinking shows up in every thread where anyone dares to criticize anything, and frankly it's getting real old.

red_emu

ThinkerOfThings wrote: »

Wow, seems like a lot of people in this thread hate this game. I wonder how many of them actually play it?

2.5 thousand hours on the clock and counting.

Dracane

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Further proof they just don't know what to do with Altmer. They never have.

I'll reserve judgement about this until I see what they did in Summerset on the PTS, but this really feels like the crux for me.

I couldn't tell you from what we see in the game what defines Altmeri culture. In fact, ZOS goes out of their way to include Altmer who defy the "stuck up, arrogant, snobbish elf" stereotype, to the point where there is no semblance of cultural influence at all. They have no peculiar style to their speech like Khajiit, Argonians or Dunmer; their clothing is not only derivative but downright ugly, without any particular purpose or expression of cultural heritage (compare to say, Dunmeri bonemold, or scarfs against sand/ashstorms in Dunmer and Redguard styles); their architecture is wholly forgettable fantasy stonework; they don't have a unique social structure like e.g. Orsimer, which is only defined as highly stratified - guess what, so is every other culture in Tamriel, kingdoms wherever you look; they don't have a religion or spiritual practice that can be clearly differentiated from the faith in the Eight Divines, albeit with different names. So on and so on. They are just a basic medieval-ish peasant society.
Ayrenn herself subverts everything we came to expect from Altmer for around 2 decades. She is as generic as a kind-hearted fantasy hero-queen can get. There is nothing alien about her.

I don't know what else to say. It's just sad they apparently have given up on world-building for the most enigmatic race in TES.

Please don't insult Ayrenn, that's completely inappropriate and mean.

Also keep in mind, that we have visited Morrowind and Orsinium and learned about their culture. We have never been to Summerset and have seen little of their culture. Auridon barely counts, because it's known to be much different than the main island and so are the Altmer living there.

When at least something from the datamined Beta Summerset questlines has survived, then you will see a rich and unique culture of the Altmer. We shall wait.

In my opinion Ayrenn is plane character, without any interest. Generic and easy. Lame. Just like altmer architecture from Summerset, as we have seen.

My heart is broken. How can you say things like that, about Ayrenn ? I'm shocked.