ESO Class Representative Program

CivilSword

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

This just shows how little the combat designers know.

It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.

It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.

It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.


It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.

It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.

I'm not paying monthly subscription to have some popular gamer decide the fate of the game i'm playing. please shut this event down and stop reinforcing whiners.

thank you

Checkmath

This program is not about whining or giving some players the power to change the game.
The reps job is to gather information about their and other classes to present the devs what which class is lacking, where which class outshines others and where fixes are needed. In the end its still th devs whi decide, the reps only will give advice. On the otherhand the reps get advice from us players testing stuff. Thats why reps have to understand not only one, but several classes. They should know where and how the classes perform well or bad. But they also need organising skills, maybe even leading skills to be able to get to the information needed. Thats why i want someone to be representative, when he is able to do his stuff, meaning that he knows where he gets information, maybe ask people to gather them, test for him. He should organize his infornatiom and infornationgathering for example in specific threads. Then ha has to approve gathered info, looking at what is relevant and whats not.
For all of that, i dont want to see people as reps, who may know their class like kasa. I want those to be reps, who are reliable and hardworking towards that goal of improving the game. And somebody, who got banned from game and forum several times, surely doesnt match that.

Brangwen

Don't you have employees? Like, trained professionals that do this for a living... just have them look through your forums and bug reports, I'm sure there's plenty to find. Or why do I pay my sub, if the community could fix everything for free anyway?

Maryal

Checkmath wrote: »

The reps job is to gather information about their and other classes to present the devs what which class is lacking, where which class outshines others and where fixes are needed. In the end its still th devs whi decide, the reps only will give advice.

Gina's Post (original post about the Class Rep)

Representatives will be asked to work together to compile a list of the top concerns and bugs for each class, and present these notes to members of the ESO Development Team on a quarterly basis. Note that we’re not looking for general class suggestions or ideas at this time; our focus will specifically be on some of the current pain points.

There is a difference ... can you see it?

Ragnarock41

Turelus wrote: »

show previous quotes

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Mehh...
I am rly rly rly not looking forward to meta riders representing my class.

We don't know if they will be, they're only representatives. They can still take your concerns and pass them on in a report.
They're not going to be designing the classes, ZOS isn't that crazy.

Rep: This class skill has issues.
Wrobel: Okay, I nerfed it.
Rep: No no no! That's not what it needed it needed X and Y.
Wrobel: I did Z
Rep: Sure that works too.

It will be more like:

Rep: The class skill X has issues and is useless , class skill Y outperforms it at any case possible.
Wrobel: Allright, I nerfed skill Y. Now you have a reason to use X. I also gave a ranged version of skill Y to class B.
Rep: ....

Checkmath

@Maryal
So pain points are what? Its exactly what i said. Pain points are skills and passives not working correct, outdated or not fitting at all. So reps will do suggestions about everything which needs fixes. Pain points also include skills, which overperform and arent looked at by the devs. Gina said no GENERAL SUGGESTIONS or IDEAS, right and i didnt talk about that. I was talking about classes lacking and missing stuff (unusable skills and passives and bugs), things overperforming ( yes this needs to be adressed too, and bugs. All these are pain points, all belong to top concerns. I didnt talk about stuff, which needs some minor changes to be fixed.

Minno

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Turelus wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Mehh...
I am rly rly rly not looking forward to meta riders representing my class.

We don't know if they will be, they're only representatives. They can still take your concerns and pass them on in a report.
They're not going to be designing the classes, ZOS isn't that crazy.

Rep: This class skill has issues.
Wrobel: Okay, I nerfed it.
Rep: No no no! That's not what it needed it needed X and Y.
Wrobel: I did Z
Rep: Sure that works too.

It will be more like:

Rep: The class skill X has issues and is useless , class skill Y outperforms it at any case possible.
Wrobel: Allright, I nerfed skill Y. Now you have a reason to use X. I also gave a ranged version of skill Y to class B.
Rep: ....

Lol love it

Checkmath

We will see how much fun the reps will have with wrobels decision making

Tenn60

My only concern would be a balanced representation from not only each class but platform as well, I think it could be beneficial to get feedback not only on classes but also because something that affects pc may not affect console and the other way around. And I know at least for PS4 there are some great players that can offer good advice, and I’d imagine Xbox as well.

WaltherCarraway

@swaggasm pve
@Quantum_V pvp

Dragonknight

HorizonPK

I vote Iskra for Magplar.

carljokl

It would be cool to be able to participate in this way. Sadly I don't have the deep understanding of any of the classes to be useful. I am forever having to ask more knowledgable members of my guild for advice.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

so after 4 years you come with something like this?

I love how the competetive community all along knew that the zos really didnt understand their own game.

FOUR YEARS after release and after all these changes that put eso into a massively imbalanced mess you come up with this?

I would lose my job immediately if i was this incompetent.

Inarre

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

This just shows how little the combat designers know.

It's also a bad idea."The selected players should have a deep understanding of at least one class". No, that should be all classes, and that should be the devs.

The class representatives aren't making balance changes. They are compiling "pain points" from the class community to submit to the Devs for review who will then decide if the point is valid and if there is a balanced solution.

I see no reason why this is a poor idea or why a secretary (basically what this role is) would need to understand every class in every scenario.

Drdeath20

well whoever is the templar representative is gonna have his/her work cut out for them.

Templars just get a nerf disquised as a micro buff and nightblades just got more build variety.

ZoS is absolutely clueless or wants everyone chasing metta and trying to squeeze every penny from its customers pockets

JackSmirkingRevenge

I feel bad for the warden rep...

Torbschka

Whoever is the one for warden (magicka warden in that case) have to remove the planned lose of the fissure stun. After the lose of undodgeable birds magicka warden is going to lose the next class identified skill - which nobody asked/complained about.

If u was a Frost Staff warden in pvp - forget it, no stun available for u anymore and wasnt warden frost theme?

@ZOS_GinaBruno , will we know who our representatives will be, so to get them some input?

Maura_Neysa

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Torbschka

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

Edit: @Maura_Neysa are u " our" class representative?

Torbschka

Torbschka wrote: »

show previous quotes

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

And magwarden is not in a good place for solo outnumbered pvp, they are at best behind 5 other speccs.

Shulien

I think that this is a wonderful idea. Well done. I have two suggestions.

I am a new player, and have been experimenting with builds (and researching) for a few weeks. The game is fantastic despite, in the eyes of a new player, the obvious race/class limitations created by (i) inherent game imbalance, and (ii) by the community and better players being obsessed with BiS. No criticism, it's just how it is.

(1) I agree, from all what I have read, @Joy_Division seems to be an obvious candidate. His last TEMPLAR post is imho amazing.

(2) I would suggest that you could try and incorporate a new player viewpoint too - it would provide a first impressions feedback that the more experienced community may unintentionally ignore... "can't see the wood from the trees".

Thanks.

Maura_Neysa

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

Edit: @Maura_Neysa are u " our" class representative?

That's my point, Stam don't rely on the stun. While they do have Dizzying Swing, its absolutely not needed to land the combo. I'm not ready to say its a non-issue, but I am willing to consider the roughly 10% extra damage you will be getting from Major Breach as a strong counter. So really it will be a matter of testing to see if it makes up enough of a difference. Personally I only know the Magicka side from my tank, but considering the strongest counter to Fissure/Sub is to just dodge it, then root is still pretty effective. I'm currently having a lot of fun using Sub/Snipe/Bombard combo with Dive as my "execute"

I have no idea who any of the class representatives are or even if they have been picked yet. I do hope whoever it is, is paying attention to this thread, and now they have my input. There are 4 people who I nominated based on repeated encounters with them on Warden based Threads. That and the fact that they Theory Craft instead of trying to apply other class builds to the Warden.

Torbschka wrote: »

And magwarden is not in a good place for solo outnumbered pvp, they are at best behind 5 other speccs.

5 specs, which ones? MagDK, StamDen, MagSorc would be my list

Torbschka

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

show previous quotes

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

Edit: @Maura_Neysa are u " our" class representative?

That's my point, Stam don't rely on the stun. While they do have Dizzying Swing, its absolutely not needed to land the combo. I'm not ready to say its a non-issue, but I am willing to consider the roughly 10% extra damage you will be getting from Major Breach as a strong counter. So really it will be a matter of testing to see if it makes up enough of a difference. Personally I only know the Magicka side from my tank, but considering the strongest counter to Fissure/Sub is to just dodge it, then root is still pretty effective. I'm currently having a lot of fun using Sub/Snipe/Bombard combo with Dive as my "execute"

I have no idea who any of the class representatives are or even if they have been picked yet. I do hope whoever it is, is paying attention to this thread, and now they have my input. There are 4 people who I nominated based on repeated encounters with them on Warden based Threads. That and the fact that they Theory Craft instead of trying to apply other class builds to the Warden.

show previous quotes

Torbschka wrote: »

And magwarden is not in a good place for solo outnumbered pvp, they are at best behind 5 other speccs.

5 specs, which ones? MagDK, StamDen, MagSorc would be my list

Well, I pretty sure u cant compare magicka warden to Stamina warden and saying "since they dont have a problem to land the stun, it wouldnt be a problem for magicka warden either".
Furthermore, I feel like u did misunderstood me (I'm not a native Speaker, as u may have already recognized haha): My poinst isnt, that it will be HARD to land the fissure (dmg wise) .In Terms of aiming it there wont be a difference wheter it has the stun or not - I'm speaking about the follow up scenario which the stun offers for magicka wardens (check the Points above with the dmg Combo, we lose 1 global cooldown).

Also, all my above point still stand and I wont repeat them, all I do saying is, that stamden and magden two total different worlds. What makes stamden strong is Setting up assault with dizzy swing/ulti + execute while being super strong defense wise - they do have a spamable stun. We dont have that as magicka wardens. Nor do we have the amount of roll dodges etc, this is not comparable at all and even IF, as I said, its not about LANDING the skill, its about unexpted burst dmg allowed to this skill.

I dont know how much experience u have with magicka warden pvp, but IMO (listen IMO) this is a huge nerf (again, bar space, playmaking etc.) for all the reasons listed above.

The specs are for solo pvp are:

stamden
magsorc
stam nb
mag nb
mag dk/magplar

I do even rate stamsorc/stamdk with the "meta" build higher, but with so many things, this is debatable

Maura_Neysa

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

Edit: @Maura_Neysa are u " our" class representative?

That's my point, Stam don't rely on the stun. While they do have Dizzying Swing, its absolutely not needed to land the combo. I'm not ready to say its a non-issue, but I am willing to consider the roughly 10% extra damage you will be getting from Major Breach as a strong counter. So really it will be a matter of testing to see if it makes up enough of a difference. Personally I only know the Magicka side from my tank, but considering the strongest counter to Fissure/Sub is to just dodge it, then root is still pretty effective. I'm currently having a lot of fun using Sub/Snipe/Bombard combo with Dive as my "execute"

I have no idea who any of the class representatives are or even if they have been picked yet. I do hope whoever it is, is paying attention to this thread, and now they have my input. There are 4 people who I nominated based on repeated encounters with them on Warden based Threads. That and the fact that they Theory Craft instead of trying to apply other class builds to the Warden.

Torbschka wrote: »

And magwarden is not in a good place for solo outnumbered pvp, they are at best behind 5 other speccs.

5 specs, which ones? MagDK, StamDen, MagSorc would be my list

Well, I pretty sure u cant compare magicka warden to Stamina warden and saying "since they dont have a problem to land the stun, it wouldnt be a problem for magicka warden either".
Furthermore, I feel like u did misunderstood me (I'm not a native Speaker, as u may have already recognized haha): My poinst isnt, that it will be HARD to land the fissure (dmg wise) .In Terms of aiming it there wont be a difference wheter it has the stun or not - I'm speaking about the follow up scenario which the stun offers for magicka wardens (check the Points above with the dmg Combo, we lose 1 global cooldown).

Also, all my above point still stand and I wont repeat them, all I do saying is, that stamden and magden two total different worlds. What makes stamden strong is Setting up assault with dizzy swing/ulti + execute while being super strong defense wise - they do have a spamable stun. We dont have that as magicka wardens. Nor do we have the amount of roll dodges etc, this is not comparable at all and even IF, as I said, its not about LANDING the skill, its about unexpted burst dmg allowed to this skill.

I dont know how much experience u have with magicka warden pvp, but IMO (listen IMO) this is a huge nerf (again, bar space, playmaking etc.) for all the reasons listed above.

The specs are for solo pvp are:

stamden
magsorc
stam nb
mag nb
mag dk/magplar

I do even rate stamsorc/stamdk with the "meta" build higher, but with so many things, this is debatable

I do recognize the grammar mistakes indicating 2nd language.
I'm not saying it will be hard to land the combo, I am saying you dont need Dizzy Swing(Stun) to do it.
Fissure->Screaming->Force Pulse=20k damage landing in the same GCD. Start it with a Clench to force a dodge roll and distract them from the coming combo. I dont know, all I'm saying is that Stun is NOT everything. It is powerful, but so is Major Breach
MagDen has all the same survival skills as StamDen, less Stamina, more Shields

Torbschka

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

show previous quotes

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Spoiler

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

So I am pretty baffled by how one sided a lot of comments always seem to be. Comments like "lose the next class identified skill." I'll speak to Wardens because its what I know best.

Animal Companions
- Dive - Still hits like a truck. Sure its harder to land, but considering the sheer volume of burst both Stam and Mag Wardens have its still highly useful. Dive Spaming will keep someone on the defensive even if you cant land it Cutting Dive Kind of gets short changed though. It gets nothing to counter Cliff Racers 15% range bonus.
- Sorch - More commonly know by its stamina morph Subterranean Assault, also still hits like a truck (or Ulti as is more commonly said on the forums) Fissure losing its stun is... well surprising, because I didn't see a lot of complain about it either. However Major Breach is a pretty powerful replacement. In fact Sub Assault doesn't stun yet we still have The Boys Who Cry Nerf throwing up a new thread every week. Either Way, this just means that Stamden are in a decent place, so I'm not to worried if thats all the harder MagDen get hit.
- Feral Guardian - Yes, he is clunky in PvP but then considering its the hardest hitting Ulti in the game, regularly hitting for 20k-40k and execute crits as high as 50-80k, personally seen in combat, or 100k Target Dummy parse I've seen. Like wow, that isn't good enough for you? The other common comment is that he dies all the time. There are really only a few fights like this HoF Reducers AoE will nuke him for example. Otherwise though his encoding is pretty good. He doesn't Chain Lighting on AA, at least not with a smart operator who keeps him targeted on The Mage. Eternal Guardian Recast on death is pretty un-special, even more so given that you still go through the animation, and its been bugged forever so he doesn't actually spawn. Just give him some other bonus. Wild Guardian Bonus damage, guess I'm happy about this because my Mag Bear hits 30% harder than the Stam Bear even though he is getting bonus damage?
- Swarm - While I agree that the damage of this skill is underwhelming. We can't forget about the passive Bond With Nature, Growing Swarm is some amazing survivablity, if you pay attention in keeping it up. You need to cast a few of them, and make sure you get new targets if you really want it to Grow. But this skill alone can heal you to full health even on a tank. 3 cast on separate targets and 20 seconds later you 18k+ Health back.
- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge. The skill is a free heal, 1/3 of Weapon(and Spell) Power Pots and free resources. My only complaint is that sometimes he blocks the view, or thanks to the visual de-clutter efforts, sometimes he is hard to spot to make sure he is up. (Console player)
- Falcon Swiftness - I think I like this skill more than most, but 1/3 of Weapon Power Pots, 100% up-time on Major Expedition, and one of two rare Minor Buffs is pretty frigging good. Not to mention, who likes being slow when roaming around Tamerial.

Green Balance
- Secluded Grove - Either more healing per cast or cast more often. Feel like this one is in a good place. It isn't the best heal, but its an amazing "off" Ultimate. Love that during a burn phase on my Tank, if I open with War Horn, I'll have this up again by the time the healers are running low on magic. Drop this to help keep everyone up and give them a HA or two
- Fungal Growth - Soothing Spores Only stamina burst (had this crit for as high as 15k) Enchanted Growth very unique with 2 some what hard to get buffs and burst heal.
- Healing Seeds - Budding Seed - AoE version of Breath of Life, very powerful. If some what clunky to use. Not only does the Warden need situational awareness of where to cast it, but also needs to double cast it? This skill could use some love. Corrupting Pollen - however, is very powerful. Extremely good debuff with the ability to maintain 100% up time, at the cost of non-instant heal. I wont be surprised if this does get some sort of nerf, though I hope its to the healing side if it does happen. It is a ground based effect so the counter play of just getting out of it is pretty obvious, and it isn't the cheapest skill to be recasting every time they move. Recasting it also means no heal.
- Living Vines - Leeching Vines is very powerful and is in a good place. Lots of sap healing for everyone around who ever it goes on. Living Trellis Another strong burst heal that's again at the cost of double casting. Couple with the "lowest health" targeting makes it clunky, at least in group play. I think this skill would just be better off healing for MORE per damage taken, after all burst is already covered with Fungal Growth.
- Lotus Flower - Green LotusThe last 1/3 of Weapon Power, to recap, that's every buff from Weapon Power Pots now, plus a self heal on Light/Heavy Attacks. Free to run any other potion you want now, Invis/Immove, etc. Lotus BlossomI'm a little less sure on this one. Yes 1/3 of Spell Power pots, but Major Prophecy is easy to get from just slotting Inner Light. So useful skill that burns magic, or useless skill that doesn't cost anything (PvE)
- Nature's Grasp - Yeah I dont know where to go with this one. Its super handy in like 5 situations. The effect of moving the Healer to whatever is killing someone is pretty much a terrible idea though. Especially since the Warden Healer requires so much situation awareness. Pulling yourself across the map and losing track of your allies is just not desirable. Now I do like this skill on my tank in Cryodiil. Pulling myself to an ally at the front line and taking the heat off of them. However this, Gate, Siege Shield, Shimmering Shield, and Corrupting Pollen are all fighting for the same 3 slots.

Winter's Embrace
- Sleet Storm - Northern Storm Amazing for the passive 8% max magic, underwelming as a used Ulti, Elemental rage does it better. PermaFrost Love his on a Tank in Cryodiil, perfect for pushing into the enemy, especially in unorganized groups since its a bomb and protection in one. That, however is just one build in one half of the game.
- Frost Cloak Ice fortress Amazing on a tank, wouldn't change this. Expansive Cloak I feel like on paper this is good, however in practice I think either everyone is running there own Major Resolve/Ward or no one cares if its there. My healer has it, but its not regularly on the bar.
- Impaling Shards - Gripping Shards Warden version of Talons with 30% slow and chance to apply Minor Maim, amazing Skill. Winter's Revenge Mag Wardens highest DPS skill (at least when Altmer) Still 30% slow and chance of Minor Maim, amazing skill too. Probably the best balanced skill the Warden has.
- Arctic Wind - Polar Wind Amazing on a tank, completely underwhelming other wise. However the other morph is better on a tank. Arctic Blast Amazing self Heal, its both a burst and HoT in one, plus AoE frost damage around you, again with a chance of applying Minor Maim. I've found with Wall, Gripping, Arctic you get amazing Maim up-time.
- Frozen gate - Frozen Device Warden Chains, plus Major Maim, amazing Skill. Frozen Retreat I have no experience with this one, but seems super situation PvP only. Still I wont say more.
- Crystallized Shield - Shimmering Shield Stronger but more situational than Annulment. Love it or hate it, there are plenty of threads already. Crystallized Slab This morph is useless, Shimmering is just too much better coupled with an as yet undiscovered Frost Mage build, there just isn't enough of a reason to take this morph. I'd love for something reason to run it (like guaranteed to apply Chilled status on successful return?)

Anyway I tried not to give opinions on what is needed to fix a skill. I only wanted to highlight what is or isn't balanced. There could easily be factors I am missing, like how Direct/DoT and the like apply. Those are complex balances that are not openly accessed. Hard to test especially on console when combine that with bugs, like that Swarm a DoT proc'd Nerien'eth doesn't help. Really though other than MagWarden DPS the class is actually in a pretty good place. As far as I can tell, Magden isn't really any worse off than MagDK and Magplar at mid 30k DPS PvE and solid PvP kits (Burst Damage/CC machine/HealBots.)

Thx for ur input, but I should have said that im exclusively speaking about magicka wardens in terms of pvp, most of the stuff uve listed here has no effect at all (from a pure solo pvp pov), what does have an effect though:

- losing the stun means losing bar space, e.g
losing inner light etc. (Tankyness and DMG)
- no stun available in pvp if using Frost Staff and dont want to become Vamp (rip icemage warden)
- fissure stuns through roll Dodge, more reliable then destructive reach etc.
- u r losing DMG in ur burst combo (what is pvp about): now; fissure, DMG skill, DMG skill, ulti. After; fissure, DMG skill, "unreliable CC", ulti. So we are losing a gcd
- in the heat of battle and fighting outnumbered many people wont recognize u activated fissure, so u are able to land a burst out of nowhere to them

I agree on birds and all that, but as a solo cyro player, I dont need the bear, nor growing swarm, nor dot pressure (in duels OK, but not outnumbered) - I need burst. Losing the stun has a significant effect on me and nerf warden 100%.

U cant kite people around a rock, fissure, charging heavy attacks, burst them anymore etc.

And OFC, not having a class skill is a lose of class Identification, since the fissure burst stun is what wardens knowm for and many love to play about it.

And all that for penetration? Come on..

Edit: @Maura_Neysa are u " our" class representative?

That's my point, Stam don't rely on the stun. While they do have Dizzying Swing, its absolutely not needed to land the combo. I'm not ready to say its a non-issue, but I am willing to consider the roughly 10% extra damage you will be getting from Major Breach as a strong counter. So really it will be a matter of testing to see if it makes up enough of a difference. Personally I only know the Magicka side from my tank, but considering the strongest counter to Fissure/Sub is to just dodge it, then root is still pretty effective. I'm currently having a lot of fun using Sub/Snipe/Bombard combo with Dive as my "execute"

I have no idea who any of the class representatives are or even if they have been picked yet. I do hope whoever it is, is paying attention to this thread, and now they have my input. There are 4 people who I nominated based on repeated encounters with them on Warden based Threads. That and the fact that they Theory Craft instead of trying to apply other class builds to the Warden.

Torbschka wrote: »

And magwarden is not in a good place for solo outnumbered pvp, they are at best behind 5 other speccs.

5 specs, which ones? MagDK, StamDen, MagSorc would be my list

Well, I pretty sure u cant compare magicka warden to Stamina warden and saying "since they dont have a problem to land the stun, it wouldnt be a problem for magicka warden either".
Furthermore, I feel like u did misunderstood me (I'm not a native Speaker, as u may have already recognized haha): My poinst isnt, that it will be HARD to land the fissure (dmg wise) .In Terms of aiming it there wont be a difference wheter it has the stun or not - I'm speaking about the follow up scenario which the stun offers for magicka wardens (check the Points above with the dmg Combo, we lose 1 global cooldown).

Also, all my above point still stand and I wont repeat them, all I do saying is, that stamden and magden two total different worlds. What makes stamden strong is Setting up assault with dizzy swing/ulti + execute while being super strong defense wise - they do have a spamable stun. We dont have that as magicka wardens. Nor do we have the amount of roll dodges etc, this is not comparable at all and even IF, as I said, its not about LANDING the skill, its about unexpted burst dmg allowed to this skill.

I dont know how much experience u have with magicka warden pvp, but IMO (listen IMO) this is a huge nerf (again, bar space, playmaking etc.) for all the reasons listed above.

The specs are for solo pvp are:

stamden
magsorc
stam nb
mag nb
mag dk/magplar

I do even rate stamsorc/stamdk with the "meta" build higher, but with so many things, this is debatable

I do recognize the grammar mistakes indicating 2nd language.
I'm not saying it will be hard to land the combo, I am saying you dont need Dizzy Swing(Stun) to do it.
Fissure->Screaming->Force Pulse=20k damage landing in the same GCD. Start it with a Clench to force a dodge roll and distract them from the coming combo. I dont know, all I'm saying is that Stun is NOT everything. It is powerful, but so is Major Breach
MagDen has all the same survival skills as StamDen, less Stamina, more Shields

See, here we have total different opinions which is fine, but from all I'm reading I guess we do also have total different experiences and playstyles ( im a solo pvper).

Stamden have way better defense than magden. Just one example - roll dodge is far superior as a defense mechanic as shields the moment there are 2 people, since 2 people dmging u will theoretically make the shields 50% weaker (2 DMG sources) while a roll Dodge u dont take any DMG no matter how many people. The more people hitting u,the weaker shields become.

Magden not even close do have the same surviveability as stamdens.

And landing the bird nowadays vs a stamina character is a total different thing I dont want to talk about now...

Joy_Division

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

- Netch - I've even seen this make the "not useful morph list" for Bull Netch, just because you lose the purge.

No. It made my list because of the design between the two morphs.

If I play a magicka focused character, I'm automatically gaining what I want: major sorcery. When I go to morph the skill, I am getting something further from the skill that I want: either a purge or, I can get stamina regeneration and Major Brutality on top of Major sorcery. I have options.

If I play stamina focused character, I don't have what I want: major brutality. When I got go the morph list, I either can get the purge (and thus miss out on major Brutality) or I turn it into the stamina version (and thus miss out of the Purge). So magicka characters are always getting something additional.

That doesn't make the Bull morph "not useful," indeed it's quite useful and I use it on my Warden. The design just makes me question why the developers feel it necessary that magicka based character are always geting an additional perk. If people are fine losing out on that additional effect, that's cool and to a degree commendable to be willingly take a hit. But having such an opinion does not invalidate my own opinion questioning a design why magicka based players are always getting something more than their stamina counterparts..

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hey guys,

This thread is getting a little out of control and certainly isn't constructive anymore. We're going to close this thread, but want to reiterate the players chosen as class representatives aren't making decisions to affect the game - we're simply meeting to discuss collated concerns and feedback together as a group, but the Dev Team will still be making any and all decisions for ESO, taking all other factors into account.

If you have any questions, feel free to reach out privately.