I'm so tired of queuing into incomplete vet Direfrost Keeps

Inarre

What is hard about direfrost?

Not that I cant relate. I always skip banished cells II for this reason. Always that one guy with 5k dps who refuses to cleanse andwon't read chat or kill bubbles

starkerealm

Inarre wrote: »

What is hard about direfrost?

Not that I cant relate. I always skip banished cells II for this reason. Always that one guy with 5k dps who refuses to cleanse andwon't read chat or kill bubbles

The boss's self heal on vet. It requires one of the players break free... which, no, they'd rather just stand there and watch the boss's health recover. When you're the tank, this can be infuriating to watch.

kojou

I support this feature, or one that lets people queue for pledge dungeons only.

I usually run them with guild-mates though.

Feric51

Aurielle wrote: »

1. Please, ZOS, I'm begging you: either give us the option to NOT queue into partially completed pledge dungeons, or

2. give us pledge credit for helping groups complete dungeons when they're stuck on the last boss.


Why should I be penalized over and over again for other players' non-existent DPS? I don't mind helping people get past bosses quickly when they're stuck, and it's nice to receive praise from appreciative tanks/healers while the other "damage dealer" sits in a corner spamming light attacks or whatever TF they're doing, but it gets old after a while when you enter the dungeon and see that portal over and over again...
.

I separated out OP's original post because I wanted to offer feedback to both points individually.

For #1 - I completely agree. I think the current status quo for needing to complete initial phases/bosses of the dungeon should remain in place (more on that below) but also feel that you shouldn't be punished, unknowingly, by getting queued into a partially complete dungeon, then have to re-enter the queue to get the initial stages done.

For #2 I'm a little hesitant. This creates a potential abuse / player grief problem. By only requiring the final boss, I can see lots of scenarios where 3 guild mates pick up a PUG, get to the final boss, then kick said PUG and invite a guild mate in for a quick HM finish. Initial PUG gets completely screwed because all the work they put in to get to the final boss is essentially worth nothing towards completing the pledge.

Just something to consider.

Priyasekarssk

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm slightly confused.

Can't you just join the group, kill the final boss

Go into dire frost normal and solo the rest of the requirements?

I mean, direfrost is solo-able if you can still snipe through the gate.

Shouldnt be too much of an issue

ZOS will fix that wtf !!!

Apache_Kid

Feric51 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

1. Please, ZOS, I'm begging you: either give us the option to NOT queue into partially completed pledge dungeons, or

2. give us pledge credit for helping groups complete dungeons when they're stuck on the last boss.


Why should I be penalized over and over again for other players' non-existent DPS? I don't mind helping people get past bosses quickly when they're stuck, and it's nice to receive praise from appreciative tanks/healers while the other "damage dealer" sits in a corner spamming light attacks or whatever TF they're doing, but it gets old after a while when you enter the dungeon and see that portal over and over again...
.

I separated out OP's original post because I wanted to offer feedback to both points individually.

For #1 - I completely agree. I think the current status quo for needing to complete initial phases/bosses of the dungeon should remain in place (more on that below) but also feel that you shouldn't be punished, unknowingly, by getting queued into a partially complete dungeon, then have to re-enter the queue to get the initial stages done.

For #2 I'm a little hesitant. This creates a potential abuse / player grief problem. By only requiring the final boss, I can see lots of scenarios where 3 guild mates pick up a PUG, get to the final boss, then kick said PUG and invite a guild mate in for a quick HM finish. Initial PUG gets completely screwed because all the work they put in to get to the final boss is essentially worth nothing towards completing the pledge.

Just something to consider.

There is an easy solution to this. Put code into the activity finder that only gives a player credit for bosses previously killed in a group dungeon if the queue into the dungeon via the activity finder. If the player is manually invited, then they do not receive credit for the previously killed bosses. This leaves absolutely 0 potential for abuse. You would still need all bosses for a pledge but if the group you join via the finder has killed those bosses you get credit for it.

The problem with allowing people to opt-out of getting put into partly completed dungeons is that it would make it much more difficult than it already is for groups to be able to find a replacement player if someone leaves or needs to be kicked. I can imagine that the majority of the player-base would select to not be put into partly completed dungeons unless they are trying to do a quick random.

I think that # 2 is an infinitely better solution than # 1

Priyasekarssk

jrgray93 wrote: »

Yeah, this boss is a nightmare with bad players. An even simpler solution would be to add a "free ally" synergy so you can force people out of the beam if they won't break free.

Adding to options is stay away from her range if you are range DPS. Use tri-potions for stamina not spell critical. More CPs in warlord before final boss fight

Jarryzzt

..................................and soloing the midbosses in normal after doing the final boss in vet is...just too obvious.

No, I know, not everyone can solo normal (or do so efficiently, e.g. tanks). Still.

---

This has all been discussed (to death) before, however.

- Checkbox to run only complete dungeons a) splits the group finder queue thus making it even harder to find a PUG at various non-peak times, and b) potentially shags without lubrication any group that, say, loses a healer due to DC or what have you halfway through a dungeon because >50% of the queue is for "complete" dungeons only.

- Giving people full credit for the final boss only opens up a huge mess of exploitation. Meanwhile, putting in code to differentiate how a player joins an instance (as well as other means of fighting said exploitation) may be too complex a task to spend developer resources.

In other words, both proposals discussed herein for what, two pages now, are not good solutions. Arguably, there is no good solution other than dynamic scalable (2-4) dungeons with no preset role requirements, but that sort of blows up the concept as it is currently implemented.

Apache_Kid

Jarryzzt wrote: »

..................................and soloing the midbosses in normal after doing the final boss in vet is...just too obvious.

No, I know, not everyone can solo normal (or do so efficiently, e.g. tanks). Still.

---

This has all been discussed (to death) before, however.

- Checkbox to run only complete dungeons a) splits the group finder queue thus making it even harder to find a PUG at various non-peak times, and b) potentially shags without lubrication any group that, say, loses a healer due to DC or what have you halfway through a dungeon because >50% of the queue is for "complete" dungeons only.

- Giving people full credit for the final boss only opens up a huge mess of exploitation. Meanwhile, putting in code to differentiate how a player joins an instance (as well as other means of fighting said exploitation) may be too complex a task to spend developer resources.

In other words, both proposals discussed herein for what, two pages now, are not good solutions. Arguably, there is no good solution other than dynamic scalable (2-4) dungeons with no preset role requirements, but that sort of blows up the concept as it is currently implemented.

I don't think it would be too complex a task at all. They already have code that gives you credit for the quest in the dungeon if you join mid-run up to where the current group is.

That being said, with this game I guess you can never be too sure on how difficult the coding will be since it seems like so many times when they try to fix or add something they break or bug something else in the process so maybe you are right.

Aurielle

Jarryzzt wrote: »

..................................and soloing the midbosses in normal after doing the final boss in vet is...just too obvious.

No, I know, not everyone can solo normal (or do so efficiently, e.g. tanks). Still.

---

This has all been discussed (to death) before, however.

- Checkbox to run only complete dungeons a) splits the group finder queue thus making it even harder to find a PUG at various non-peak times, and b) potentially shags without lubrication any group that, say, loses a healer due to DC or what have you halfway through a dungeon because >50% of the queue is for "complete" dungeons only.

- Giving people full credit for the final boss only opens up a huge mess of exploitation. Meanwhile, putting in code to differentiate how a player joins an instance (as well as other means of fighting said exploitation) may be too complex a task to spend developer resources.

In other words, both proposals discussed herein for what, two pages now, are not good solutions. Arguably, there is no good solution other than dynamic scalable (2-4) dungeons with no preset role requirements, but that sort of blows up the concept as it is currently implemented.

Yeah, I can EASILY solo normal dungeons on all of my characters, and have been doing so since CP 280 or so. The issue with Direfrost in particular is the pressure plate mechanic (though I now know some tricks to get past it, thanks to this thread).

Point is, there really should be an easier way to complete pledges when you queue into a half complete dungeon. You can get your random daily rewards just by killing the final boss after you queue into a partially completed dungeon, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same for pledges. No one abuses the random daily reward system by kicking players at the last boss (at least, I've never seen it happen or seen people complaining about it), and I highly doubt it would happen with pledges.

Feric51

Aurielle wrote: »

Point is, there really should be an easier way to complete pledges when you queue into a half complete dungeon. You can get your random daily rewards just by killing the final boss after you queue into a partially completed dungeon, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same for pledges. No one abuses the random daily reward system by kicking players at the last boss (at least, I've never seen it happen or seen people complaining about it), and I highly doubt it would happen with pledges.

This is because you don't get the random reward if you're invited to the group, even if the rest of the group queued random. Sure, you can kick someone, but you'd still get another PUG from the queue and have no way to know if it was someone you wanted.

QuebraRegra

Mazbt wrote: »

A check box indicating you do not want to go to a partially completed dungeon (at least one boss dead) would be nice.

this needs to happen... too bad the lazy intern that wrote the activity finder code doesn't work at ZOS anymore

Oh yeah, and that 'failed to jump, group full" trash...

xaraan

Would be good if ZoS just fixed the final boss in direfrost to actually respond to taunt.

Apache_Kid

xaraan wrote: »

Would be good if ZoS just fixed the final boss in direfrost to actually respond to taunt.

I think she's supposed to be un-tauntable

LeFey7

If someone joins the run for the last boss, and you have the time, offer to re-run the dungeon with them to get the other bosses. It's an easy way to help out someone who is about to help you out.

Aurielle

Feric51 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Point is, there really should be an easier way to complete pledges when you queue into a half complete dungeon. You can get your random daily rewards just by killing the final boss after you queue into a partially completed dungeon, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same for pledges. No one abuses the random daily reward system by kicking players at the last boss (at least, I've never seen it happen or seen people complaining about it), and I highly doubt it would happen with pledges.

This is because you don't get the random reward if you're invited to the group, even if the rest of the group queued random. Sure, you can kick someone, but you'd still get another PUG from the queue and have no way to know if it was someone you wanted.

That's how pledges should work as well, IMO. There should be three separate queue modes: (1) random normal/vet; (2) specific daily pledge normal/vet; (3) specific dungeon normal/vet. If you launch the dungeon on random normal/specific pledge, you can't replace a player you kick with a guild mate or a friend. You can still run old pledges that you haven't turned in yet by queuing for the third mode.

LeFey7 wrote: »

If someone joins the run for the last boss, and you have the time, offer to re-run the dungeon with them to get the other bosses. It's an easy way to help out someone who is about to help you out.

These are ESO pugs we're talking about; while it would be nice of other players to do this, the likelihood that they will is slim to none. Most players don't even say anything in chat (voice OR text) the whole dungeon; they just leave at the end within seconds of completion.

Vermintide

This happens? I don't think I've ever been in a group that had issues with Direfrost Keep...

Sixty5

Direfrost is a potato masher dungeon with the last boss, your best bet is to educate your team about breaking free and push through.

It could always be worse, and you could be like me and get nothing but DLC dungeons from the finder

zaria

Feric51 wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

1. Please, ZOS, I'm begging you: either give us the option to NOT queue into partially completed pledge dungeons, or

2. give us pledge credit for helping groups complete dungeons when they're stuck on the last boss.


Why should I be penalized over and over again for other players' non-existent DPS? I don't mind helping people get past bosses quickly when they're stuck, and it's nice to receive praise from appreciative tanks/healers while the other "damage dealer" sits in a corner spamming light attacks or whatever TF they're doing, but it gets old after a while when you enter the dungeon and see that portal over and over again...
.

I separated out OP's original post because I wanted to offer feedback to both points individually.

For #1 - I completely agree. I think the current status quo for needing to complete initial phases/bosses of the dungeon should remain in place (more on that below) but also feel that you shouldn't be punished, unknowingly, by getting queued into a partially complete dungeon, then have to re-enter the queue to get the initial stages done.

For #2 I'm a little hesitant. This creates a potential abuse / player grief problem. By only requiring the final boss, I can see lots of scenarios where 3 guild mates pick up a PUG, get to the final boss, then kick said PUG and invite a guild mate in for a quick HM finish. Initial PUG gets completely screwed because all the work they put in to get to the final boss is essentially worth nothing towards completing the pledge.

Just something to consider.

Simple solution, if you join by finder you get pledge even if just last boss, invite you don't.
Helping on last boss is hardly an issue in guild.
You can not gamble this and it give an initiative to help, one wipe give the status pretty well, is this just not getting mechanic right or is group is pretty much LA while standing in stupid. Has been in groups who failed on trash before first boss in vet wayrest 2. It was pretty impressive, one DD pulled ahead of tank the other hang back fighting the first pack
Had an group fail the dps check on second last boss in normal BC2, its not hard in vet. This one as warden healer was the only using AoE.

Colecovision

As long as lag exists break free will never be 100%. I've never tried Dire Frost with a group, but I'd hate to see that final boss feeding on the other players as fast as I could do damage. She tends to grab me a couple of times and I know how to break free.

More importantly, if they go closing loopholes on that dungeon, they need to let the writers, animators or whoever put that quest together know that his/her work is unappreciated and deserves to be crapped on by people pushing the groups along. It's a very fun dungeon to solo, especially the first time. But solo is the only way to get everything out of the quests. So, either put a true story mode in the dungeons or leave this one the f--- alone. It hurts no one, improves the game and provides the true immersion that the game desperately needs.

Aurielle

Vermintide wrote: »

This happens? I don't think I've ever been in a group that had issues with Direfrost Keep...

You're really lucky, then. Or you, too, have good DPS and are able to offset other players' poor reaction times.

Sixty5 wrote: »

Direfrost is a potato masher dungeon with the last boss, your best bet is to educate your team about breaking free and push through.

Again, the issue isn't about completing the dungeon. I'm able to carry just about ANY group through that boss fairly quickly, because I have enough DPS to make up for crappy players who don't/can't break free fast enough. The issue is that when I sit in the queue for ages and ages, looking to complete the pledge, I almost always queue into an almost-complete dungeon when a spot finally opens up. The group I end up helping has either kicked their last crappy damage dealer (thinking the DPS was to blame, when in reality, it was a combo of subpar DPS and not following mechanics), or the damage dealer has left of their own accord because they can't carry the group.

Skua

I've only done it a couple of times on vet since vet stuff still makes me nervous but I definitely find it helpful to explain about breaking free to people.

There was one time I eventually just did not rez someone because they couldn't do it and they were ok with that and said they still had fun. The other DPS also didn't rez when the tank tried to rez him so it was just me and the tank. I felt kind of bad about it but it was the only way to get through the dungeon. It took a while though with me healing and being the only DPS.

I do feel their pain though since I myself am horrible at the boss in Crypt of Hearts II where you can't overlap circles.

But yeah, it would be nice to be able to choose if you are looking for a full complete on a dungeon or not. When you're just doing a random dungeon going in on the last boss just makes for a really fast random.

RANKK7

That was mighty fine in order to farm divines helm at the time, I used to queue non-stop the days it was pledge just for last boss and in fact rarely I had to run it all, 8 times out of 10 the group was at last boss, how nice for farming
Only good thing about that.

Ch4mpTW

This dungeon is 1 of the main reasons why I developed the knowledge and skills to solo content. Nothing is more infuriating than thoroughly explaining the mechanics to a group of people, even though they originally said that they knew what to do. And still have to see the final boss constantly heal herself, while the players who claimed they understood act and look flabbergasted by it all.

The last time I tried to PUG this dungeon, we had a tank that used a bow and S&B. And whenever the boss would siphon him, he’d cough in the mic as if choking (probably a burnout stoner). Then say, “Duuude, did you see that? She keeps helping, bro. WTF is her problem!?”

SkyIsTheLimit1206

Inarre wrote: »

What is hard about direfrost?

Not that I cant relate. I always skip banished cells II for this reason. Always that one guy with 5k dps who refuses to cleanse andwon't read chat or kill bubbles

I also don't understand what's so hard about Direfrost.


Just tell "new" guys to break free when the beam comes, *snap* done


Well I might be biased, I ran with a group of experienced players for this weekend's Direfrost Keep (they were guildmates)


I was even trying out a new non-meta Werewolf Stamblade build I came up with that actually, surprisingly to me (as it is a werewolf) hit 25K single target...


Eh. None of us in the team let the beam siphon from us for more than 2 seconds.

adeptusminor

If you are timid or don't want to confirm people know the mechanic you could always say something like "I'm lagging so I might not be able to break free asap like we need to, just a heads up"

Mayrael

Sometimes its easier to solo last boss than do it with group when you are on dd. Just burn adds quick, avoiding boss mechanics is easy, when you break beam instantly killing the boss isn't as hard, the hardest part is to teach those minions that they need to break the beam.

Mureel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This dungeon is 1 of the main reasons why I developed the knowledge and skills to solo content. Nothing is more infuriating than thoroughly explaining the mechanics to a group of people, even though they originally said that they knew what to do. And still have to see the final boss constantly heal herself, while the players who claimed they understood act and look flabbergasted by it all.

The last time I tried to PUG this dungeon, we had a tank that used a bow and S&B. And whenever the boss would siphon him, he’d cough in the mic as if choking (probably a burnout stoner). Then say, “Duuude, did you see that? She keeps helping, bro. WTF is her problem!?”

You pugged and they came to Discord? xD

And ew! People who cough in the mic for any reason make me want to choke them

Ch4mpTW

Mureel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This dungeon is 1 of the main reasons why I developed the knowledge and skills to solo content. Nothing is more infuriating than thoroughly explaining the mechanics to a group of people, even though they originally said that they knew what to do. And still have to see the final boss constantly heal herself, while the players who claimed they understood act and look flabbergasted by it all.

The last time I tried to PUG this dungeon, we had a tank that used a bow and S&B. And whenever the boss would siphon him, he’d cough in the mic as if choking (probably a burnout stoner). Then say, “Duuude, did you see that? She keeps helping, bro. WTF is her problem!?”

You pugged and they came to Discord? xD

And ew! People who cough in the mic for any reason make me want to choke them

@Mureel These types of people are all over console. The folks with 420 in their names, and or something cannabis related. And if they aren’t coughing into their mics, then are taking obnoxiously loud rips from a bong or something. It’s beyond ridiculous. It’s 1 of the reasons why I often will refuse to join any chat (outside of text). Unless I’m with buddies, and or guildsmen.

Also, I’ve noticed that these people tend to come from a FPS background. Not stereotyping, but just making an observation. And if it’s not from there, it’s either GTA or a sports game. I’ve never seen people who have backgrounds in other RPG’s or JRPG’s act that way.

Mureel

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This dungeon is 1 of the main reasons why I developed the knowledge and skills to solo content. Nothing is more infuriating than thoroughly explaining the mechanics to a group of people, even though they originally said that they knew what to do. And still have to see the final boss constantly heal herself, while the players who claimed they understood act and look flabbergasted by it all.

The last time I tried to PUG this dungeon, we had a tank that used a bow and S&B. And whenever the boss would siphon him, he’d cough in the mic as if choking (probably a burnout stoner). Then say, “Duuude, did you see that? She keeps helping, bro. WTF is her problem!?”

You pugged and they came to Discord? xD

And ew! People who cough in the mic for any reason make me want to choke them

@Mureel These types of people are all over console. The folks with 420 in their names, and or something cannabis related. And if they aren’t coughing into their mics, then are taking obnoxiously loud rips from a bong or something. It’s beyond ridiculous. It’s 1 of the reasons why I often will refuse to join an chat (outside of text). Unless I’m with buddies, and or guildsmen.

@Ch4mpTW
Shudder. That would set me RIGHT OFF. That loud vaping noise too. Or people eating on open mic.