Where would you currently rate classes for PVP?

Sixty5 · March 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

RinaldoGandolphi · March 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

1. Stam Blade
2. Stam Warden
3. Stam Sorc
4. Stam Templar
5. Stam DK
6. Mag NB
7. Mag Sorc
8. Mag DK
9. Mag Templar
10. Mag Warden

Speaking of the Mag Warden, I just recently finished leveling mine. I wanted to play it because not only is it under-represented, its significantly harder to play then most other classes if you want to play anything other then a tank.

Screaming Cliff Racer being dodgeable really hurt Magicka Warden badly, and to be frank that change needs to be reverted, or the skill needs to be an instant cast with no travel time on the bird...the bird has a nearly 2 second delay after casting before it does anything, its impossible to hit anyone with it because of that. (make the Bird as fast as Templar Javelin, so its much harder to dodge)

Right now Mag Wardens are mediocre damage dealers, average healers, and pretty good tanks...but they are not as good at any of those roles as other classes are.

I'll continue playing Magden in pvp despite is being on the bottom tier.

There was this guy.... Whom like screamed bloody murder about how Magden relied heavily on an undodgeable bird to be effective and that it would seriously gimp the class if it was changed without any compensation....

I wanna say he made a 6 page thread about it in the pts...

I think he was right...

I wonder whom that masked man was?

@Waffennacht

Oh you were absolutely right. Sad how things have gone for the mag warden....

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

They are amongst the hardest for me to place, because I struggle against them with some builds, but most of the time, I rarely ever die to them. I just can't rate them that high because its the one class that I don't play that I also don't have a ton of trouble fighting against. Maybe they could be swapped with Magden, since the bird nerf.

Ragnarock41 · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

stamplar is not really top tier, but Its not really any worse either. It would be T1 for sure if jabs worked fine.

bleeds are very popular atm for stam builds, and stamplars do have the option to purge those bleeds.

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

I spend half my time in small scale, and stamplars are by far the most OP battlegrounds class. If BG was the only PVP in the game, then Stamplar would be two levels above the next best class (Stamblade). They are tier 2 for non BG PVP though.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Stamwarden
Stamblade, magblade
.
.
.
MagDk
.
MagSorc, Stamplar
MagWarden, Magplar, Stamsorc, StamDk

I love these types of discussions, it's nice to hear how everyone feels about this. =]

It's worth noting that I think the six at the bottom are pretty even with each other and that magplar is higher on the list if grouped and Stamsorc is higher on the list if solo.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting to see where people feel classes are, and how people pretty consistently underrate what they play, unless they main one a Nightblade or Stamden.

Also, seems like Mag DK is doing pretty well for itself this patch, despite the fears that the class was completely gutted.

MagDK is within top few because of its top performance in duels where none of its downsides show, going full damage doesn't lose too much survival/sustain and mobility doesn't matter. Then add its innate strengths of lockdown and ST pressure it comes out highly.

Absolute *** OW solo and just mediocre in groups.

Sixty5 · March 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

I spend half my time in small scale, and stamplars are by far the most OP battlegrounds class. If BG was the only PVP in the game, then Stamplar would be two levels above the next best class (Stamblade). They are tier 2 for non BG PVP though.

I don't deny that stamplar is strong.

I'd just personally rate it lower because pretty much all stamplars do pretty much the same thing. If you see a Stamplar, you know he is just going to purge, throw spears, and combo off POTL, whereas a Magblade for instance can be a lot more unpredictable.

Sixty5 · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Stamwarden
Stamblade, magblade
.
.
.
MagDk
.
MagSorc, Stamplar
MagWarden, Magplar, Stamsorc, StamDk

I love these types of discussions, it's nice to hear how everyone feels about this. =]

It's worth noting that I think the six at the bottom are pretty even with each other and that magplar is higher on the list if grouped and Stamsorc is higher on the list if solo.

Yeah, it's pretty interesting to see where people feel classes are, and how people pretty consistently underrate what they play, unless they main one a Nightblade or Stamden.

Also, seems like Mag DK is doing pretty well for itself this patch, despite the fears that the class was completely gutted.

MagDK is within top few because of its top performance in duels where none of its downsides show, going full damage doesn't lose too much survival/sustain and mobility doesn't matter. Then add its innate strengths of lockdown and ST pressure it comes out highly.

Absolute *** OW solo and just mediocre in groups.

Oh absolutely. OW tierlist would look something like

Earthgore
-
-
-
Everything else
Mag DK

thankyourat · March 2018

So it looks like most people think stam dk is the worse class on average and either nightblade or stamden is the best class. I would make a case for stamden being in a tier above both nightblades. The reason being is stamden has equal burst to a nightblade but has much better survivability. A nightblade is susceptible to being Bursted while a stamden is not. Stamden basically has equal mobility because of the ability to run forward momentum making it great open world, while destro/resto magblade isn't really the best open world class due to not having great mobility, and 2hand magblade is good open world but it's not anywhere near the same level as destro/resto. So with magblade you can't make a one size fits all build. Your dueling build will not be viable for solo play. while a stamden it's easier to build a one size fits all build

ak_pvp · March 2018

thankyourat wrote: »

So it looks like most people think stam dk is the worse class on average and either nightblade or stamden is the best class. I would make a case for stamden being in a tier above both nightblades. The reason being is stamden has equal burst to a nightblade but has much better survivability. A nightblade is susceptible to being Bursted while a stamden is not. Stamden basically has equal mobility because of the ability to run forward momentum making it great open world, while destro/resto magblade isn't really the best open world class due to not having great mobility, and 2hand magblade is good open world but it's not anywhere near the same level as destro/resto. So with magblade you can't make a one size fits all build. Your dueling build will not be viable for solo play. while a stamden it's easier to build a one size fits all build

But stamden is more susceptible to pressure than a nightblade. Cloak stops most damage, dots, ST etc. Stamden whilst tanky and mobile, so harder to instantly burst down, doesn't match up to a well used cloak.

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

I spend half my time in small scale, and stamplars are by far the most OP battlegrounds class. If BG was the only PVP in the game, then Stamplar would be two levels above the next best class (Stamblade). They are tier 2 for non BG PVP though.

I don't deny that stamplar is strong.

I'd just personally rate it lower because pretty much all stamplars do pretty much the same thing. If you see a Stamplar, you know he is just going to purge, throw spears, and combo off POTL, whereas a Magblade for instance can be a lot more unpredictable.

Maybe I just need to convert my Argonian magplar to a stamplar for a bit and troubleshoot my issues by seeing how other players react. Cause they definitely seem most OP to me of late, and this wasn't always the case. It's the only stam class that actively hate confronting as my stamblade. And it's definitely the best class against both of my DKs and my stamden (who does have some trouble against magblades).

Lexxypwns · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

TBF that isn't really the best way to play a stamDK. Defile, heroic and light+ransack+bash. Use fossilize and play like an *** for duels. Still underpowered, but better than the dizzy spammers.

Those specs aren’t viable on console because you can’t unbind block from bash. This means you essentially have 0 sustain when you go offensive. It is 100% not sustainable and without the bash cancel it’s a noticeable loss of damage. You can try to run just LA+ransack/heroic weaves but I haven’t fought a stam DK doing that effectively

BohnT · March 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

stamplar is not really top tier, but Its not really any worse either. It would be T1 for sure if jabs worked fine.

bleeds are very popular atm for stam builds, and stamplars do have the option to purge those bleeds.

I play a stamplar myself most of the time for 3 patches now again with both great success and frustrating failures.
And i have to say offensive wise stamplar really kicks ass, not as much as stamnbs or stamwarden but it really dishes out damage when it can but this offensive pressure is highly dependent on the rest of the build which often leaves one or two important aspects of the build in a bad spot.

Looking at the sustain stamplar is worst for having 1 passive which reduces skill cost and even this is outdone by 1% when comparing it to 1 of 3 sorc passives.
On all stamplar builds i used sustain always was the first thing to look at, any viable stamplar build i know utilises bone pirate+ serpent and 1-2 regen glyphs.
The last part is survivability either through high resistances+ purge or damage avoidance with mobility and purge and for both good healing. When fighting someone with duroks or reverb you'll have to accept that the major defile will be on you all the time, either you purge it all the time to get the most healing and be an easy target for more important things you can't purge now or your heals get greatly reduced.

Medium roll dodge high damage playstyle is something i simply can't do on stamplar, you get one shotted all the time when facing more than one enemy, your burst time is rather thin because you can't utilise dodge or block while using jabs and more duel focused builds will completely wreck you as you can't nuke them fast enough.

I also don't get where that consumption comes from that stamplar has great heals, my stamsorc has more healing with vigor + rally and surge and ofc DD
Stamwarden is just flat out superior and even on my stamnb i have better healing with cloak+ vigor and Rally which heal me for more because you can stack much more damage on nbs because shade and cloak keep you alive.

But the main point i wouldn't list stamplar that high is that once you have small lags you can completely forget about killing anyone:
Jabs won't hit a stationary target infront of you
potl will either lock you in the cast animation or won't fire it's second hit
And as every stam spec vigor decides from time to time to simply drain resources while not giving heals

This may be influenced by personal bias but when comparing it to all other classes which i played (all of them) i simply can't say that stamplar is this strong

Sixty5 · March 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

TBF that isn't really the best way to play a stamDK. Defile, heroic and light+ransack+bash. Use fossilize and play like an *** for duels. Still underpowered, but better than the dizzy spammers.

Those specs aren’t viable on console because you can’t unbind block from bash. This means you essentially have 0 sustain when you go offensive. It is 100% not sustainable and without the bash cancel it’s a noticeable loss of damage. You can try to run just LA+ransack/heroic weaves but I haven’t fought a stam DK doing that effectively

Weaving in bash is still a pretty nasty drain on your resources, even when you aren't using block with it.
I tend to avoid it unless the person is low and I want the implosion procs.

Ragnarock41 · March 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

I spend half my time in small scale, and stamplars are by far the most OP battlegrounds class. If BG was the only PVP in the game, then Stamplar would be two levels above the next best class (Stamblade). They are tier 2 for non BG PVP though.

I am very happy that stamplars are not trash tier like they used to a few months ago. The indirect buffs to medium definitely helped them a lot.
They are a natural stamDK counter, but I still enjoy the challange of fighting them.

Koensol · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

I generally think people underestimate how well a damage oriented MagPlar can do in the BGs. Most play healbots or tanks and I kinda feel they don't use the class to its complete potential.

My mate refuses to play healbot and after a brief adapation period he's doing incredibly well playing as a balls-deep Templar. He plays a Destro/S&B Magplar with Masters Lightning staff and the only class I can reach his damage output with is MagDK. He regularly posts damage upwards of 1.5m. He often beats my DK damage output, which is phenomenal.

This screenshot below is from a BG couple of days ago against two against teams that were at least 3-man premades. The game ran out of time in the end and was quite tight. He posted 1.7m in no-cp BGs and grabbed more points than me despite me kill stealing as a Sorc. And no Zaan cheese or anything like that. He does this all the time, it's not a one-off.

TL;DR; Damage output of MagPlars is severely underestimated because more people play them as support class.

I agree. My magplar is also in this screenshot on purple team with 3150 points. I just recently started playing magplar again, in a damage setup. With the right build you can really do a lot of damage. It is all about setting up the combo's though. I still need to improve a lot, but when you get all your buffs and damage aligned you will just see people crumble under your pressure. Just have to find a way to sustain it

technohic · March 2018

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

TBF that isn't really the best way to play a stamDK. Defile, heroic and light+ransack+bash. Use fossilize and play like an *** for duels. Still underpowered, but better than the dizzy spammers.

Those specs aren’t viable on console because you can’t unbind block from bash. This means you essentially have 0 sustain when you go offensive. It is 100% not sustainable and without the bash cancel it’s a noticeable loss of damage. You can try to run just LA+ransack/heroic weaves but I haven’t fought a stam DK doing that effectively

Not specifically sure what you mean by unbinding. You can't on a PC IIRC, unless you mean with a macro to reduce time blocking. Since blocking doesn't actually reset your regen tick, only pauses it you will still get some regen. I believe cyrusarya tested it.

Whilst true, it is a heavier sustain loss altogether due to bash, it matter less in a duel because you use less resourcess altogether and can heavy attack. Also DK stam sustain is pretty decent.

Joy_Division · March 2018

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

I generally think people underestimate how well a damage oriented MagPlar can do in the BGs. Most play healbots or tanks and I kinda feel they don't use the class to its complete potential.

My mate refuses to play healbot and after a brief adapation period he's doing incredibly well playing as a balls-deep Templar. He plays a Destro/S&B Magplar with Masters Lightning staff and the only class I can reach his damage output with is MagDK. He regularly posts damage upwards of 1.5m. He often beats my DK damage output, which is phenomenal.

This screenshot below is from a BG couple of days ago against two against teams that were at least 3-man premades. The game ran out of time in the end and was quite tight. He posted 1.7m in no-cp BGs and grabbed more points than me despite me kill stealing as a Sorc. And no Zaan cheese or anything like that. He does this all the time, it's not a one-off.

TL;DR; Damage output of MagPlars is severely underestimated because more people play them as support class.

I don't think it's necessarily underestimated. In fact, templars probably would have the easiest time hitting the highest damage total because it has a 2 AoE Dots, Purifying Light is ridiculously easy to get max hits with 7 other people inadvertently ramping the damage pool, and an AoE spammable. A Templar who also slots elemental blockade probably cannot be matched in terms of damage output in a BG.

This issue is that the damage is dispersed, when in BGs and PvP in general, you rather have it concentrated and focused as that is what gets kills. So 1.7 million damage and only 7 KBs. Templars forced into a 1v1 or worse 1vX Vs. a similarly skilled opponent might get flashy damage values, but is going to struggle securing the kill and winning the fights because it is difficult to focus that damage and the "I'm now offense, now I'm on defense" predictable phases templar game-play is all about.

I don't think the PvP community ihas missed out on the offensive potential of templars. Builds, combinations, FOTM, etc., get around real quick as there is a lot of copycats out there. If offensive predator type templar builds were easy, fluid, natural, etc., I think we'd see a lot of them - most people who PvP want to kill other players at the end of the day.

Sure, your friend, myself, and other templars out there discard the "healbot" stereotype. And for more often than not, we make it work. But it's not easy, it's awkward, too often it means fighting against what the class does well and does not do well, and ultimately a big reason we make it work is we have so much experience with playing a Magplar (more so that the strengths of magplar). Only so many times you go "balls-deep" and then realize your f***** because your opponent(s) are just as experienced as you are and only a class that is better suited for melee single target encounter and there's no streak, cloak, or anyway out of the situation before you want to throw your computer out the window.

Thanks Joy! I was just about to comment exactly like this.

I think it's important to know in structured 2 man premades, the Templar shines. But the second you go solo and face 2 players at a flag (which happens more than often), the AOE DPS rout for damage doesn't work as well. This is because you are stuck behind a 6 second burst window but trying to fight instant cast enemies during those 6 seconds. I'd never use shards in PvP, because the by the time the skill drops, I will have taken enough DMG to be sent close to execute range forcing me to be defensive. Then the dot DMG is wasted because I was forced to be defensive, wasting my 6 second purfying light window.

It certainly helps if you have a buddy applying CC, but there is a reason templars use more defensive sets than other classes; and it certainly isn't because we want to be annoying healbots. Our class was designed to apply miss chance and off balance passively; both of which were stripped to give DD Templars an execute which also ironically pushed Templars towards more tanky builds.

To compare to his buddies DMG heres my latest BG:
https://youtu.be/HcB9YptIUq0
I may have done just under 600k DMG here, but I also have roughly 14 kills/10 assists (which translates to either being faster enough in my offensive window to score the killing blow or having enough defense to be solo against 2 players yet still score a kill while also switching seamlessly to support DPS for the assists). And I still die, despite building more in defense.

There's that old saying, "it takes one to know one."

I think @Maulkin 's point is right though, it is poosible to play a not healer-support magplar and do well. It's just not as fluid or natural as experienced players may make it seem.

I know I'm heretical because I dislike using Inner Light, but I really don't think that skill is worth it for a Magplar, especially when it is replacing Reflective Light. As we've mentioned in this thread, templar damage isn't the issue, so it's just boosting the already too dispersed damage and Reflective Light gives the crit and helps focus some of that damage.

Amdar_Godkiller · March 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Top tier

Stamblade (I have 1)
Stamplar
Mag DK (I have 1)

Second Tier

Stamden (I have 1)
Mag Sorc (I have 1)
Magden

Third Tier

Magblade
Magplar (I have 1)

Fourth Tier

Stam Sorc (I have 1)

Fifth Tier

?

Sixth Tier

Stam DK (Sadly, I have 1)

I think this is mostly accurate, but I would put magblade higher.

I don't think Stamplar should be that high there. Maybe with Jabs fixed, but as is now, they are definitely not T1

stamplar is not really top tier, but Its not really any worse either. It would be T1 for sure if jabs worked fine.

bleeds are very popular atm for stam builds, and stamplars do have the option to purge those bleeds.

I play a stamplar myself most of the time for 3 patches now again with both great success and frustrating failures.
And i have to say offensive wise stamplar really kicks ass, not as much as stamnbs or stamwarden but it really dishes out damage when it can but this offensive pressure is highly dependent on the rest of the build which often leaves one or two important aspects of the build in a bad spot.

Looking at the sustain stamplar is worst for having 1 passive which reduces skill cost and even this is outdone by 1% when comparing it to 1 of 3 sorc passives.
On all stamplar builds i used sustain always was the first thing to look at, any viable stamplar build i know utilises bone pirate+ serpent and 1-2 regen glyphs.
The last part is survivability either through high resistances+ purge or damage avoidance with mobility and purge and for both good healing. When fighting someone with duroks or reverb you'll have to accept that the major defile will be on you all the time, either you purge it all the time to get the most healing and be an easy target for more important things you can't purge now or your heals get greatly reduced.

Medium roll dodge high damage playstyle is something i simply can't do on stamplar, you get one shotted all the time when facing more than one enemy, your burst time is rather thin because you can't utilise dodge or block while using jabs and more duel focused builds will completely wreck you as you can't nuke them fast enough.

I also don't get where that consumption comes from that stamplar has great heals, my stamsorc has more healing with vigor + rally and surge and ofc DD
Stamwarden is just flat out superior and even on my stamnb i have better healing with cloak+ vigor and Rally which heal me for more because you can stack much more damage on nbs because shade and cloak keep you alive.

But the main point i wouldn't list stamplar that high is that once you have small lags you can completely forget about killing anyone:
Jabs won't hit a stationary target infront of you
potl will either lock you in the cast animation or won't fire it's second hit
And as every stam spec vigor decides from time to time to simply drain resources while not giving heals

This may be influenced by personal bias but when comparing it to all other classes which i played (all of them) i simply can't say that stamplar is this strong

Stamwarden is pretty good if you know what you're doing, but it's objectively the most overrated class in PVP, I feel. Most of your heals are useless (Lotus requires constant heavy attacking, the heal from vines is pathetic, spores is good, but provides no other buffs, the other two scale to magic) or not as good as Vigor at the very least, and you lack abilities that serve multiple functions. You have no CCs. and no extremely hard-hitting ultimate, and the worst passives of any class in the game. The bird is now not worth slotting, and that leaves one powerful attack that must be timed and aligned perfectly (don't talk to me about lag).

Minno · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

I generally think people underestimate how well a damage oriented MagPlar can do in the BGs. Most play healbots or tanks and I kinda feel they don't use the class to its complete potential.

My mate refuses to play healbot and after a brief adapation period he's doing incredibly well playing as a balls-deep Templar. He plays a Destro/S&B Magplar with Masters Lightning staff and the only class I can reach his damage output with is MagDK. He regularly posts damage upwards of 1.5m. He often beats my DK damage output, which is phenomenal.

This screenshot below is from a BG couple of days ago against two against teams that were at least 3-man premades. The game ran out of time in the end and was quite tight. He posted 1.7m in no-cp BGs and grabbed more points than me despite me kill stealing as a Sorc. And no Zaan cheese or anything like that. He does this all the time, it's not a one-off.

TL;DR; Damage output of MagPlars is severely underestimated because more people play them as support class.

I don't think it's necessarily underestimated. In fact, templars probably would have the easiest time hitting the highest damage total because it has a 2 AoE Dots, Purifying Light is ridiculously easy to get max hits with 7 other people inadvertently ramping the damage pool, and an AoE spammable. A Templar who also slots elemental blockade probably cannot be matched in terms of damage output in a BG.

This issue is that the damage is dispersed, when in BGs and PvP in general, you rather have it concentrated and focused as that is what gets kills. So 1.7 million damage and only 7 KBs. Templars forced into a 1v1 or worse 1vX Vs. a similarly skilled opponent might get flashy damage values, but is going to struggle securing the kill and winning the fights because it is difficult to focus that damage and the "I'm now offense, now I'm on defense" predictable phases templar game-play is all about.

I don't think the PvP community ihas missed out on the offensive potential of templars. Builds, combinations, FOTM, etc., get around real quick as there is a lot of copycats out there. If offensive predator type templar builds were easy, fluid, natural, etc., I think we'd see a lot of them - most people who PvP want to kill other players at the end of the day.

Sure, your friend, myself, and other templars out there discard the "healbot" stereotype. And for more often than not, we make it work. But it's not easy, it's awkward, too often it means fighting against what the class does well and does not do well, and ultimately a big reason we make it work is we have so much experience with playing a Magplar (more so that the strengths of magplar). Only so many times you go "balls-deep" and then realize your f***** because your opponent(s) are just as experienced as you are and only a class that is better suited for melee single target encounter and there's no streak, cloak, or anyway out of the situation before you want to throw your computer out the window.

Thanks Joy! I was just about to comment exactly like this.

I think it's important to know in structured 2 man premades, the Templar shines. But the second you go solo and face 2 players at a flag (which happens more than often), the AOE DPS rout for damage doesn't work as well. This is because you are stuck behind a 6 second burst window but trying to fight instant cast enemies during those 6 seconds. I'd never use shards in PvP, because the by the time the skill drops, I will have taken enough DMG to be sent close to execute range forcing me to be defensive. Then the dot DMG is wasted because I was forced to be defensive, wasting my 6 second purfying light window.

It certainly helps if you have a buddy applying CC, but there is a reason templars use more defensive sets than other classes; and it certainly isn't because we want to be annoying healbots. Our class was designed to apply miss chance and off balance passively; both of which were stripped to give DD Templars an execute which also ironically pushed Templars towards more tanky builds.

To compare to his buddies DMG heres my latest BG:
https://youtu.be/HcB9YptIUq0
I may have done just under 600k DMG here, but I also have roughly 14 kills/10 assists (which translates to either being faster enough in my offensive window to score the killing blow or having enough defense to be solo against 2 players yet still score a kill while also switching seamlessly to support DPS for the assists). And I still die, despite building more in defense.

There's that old saying, "it takes one to know one."

I think @Maulkin 's point is right though, it is poosible to play a not healer-support magplar and do well. It's just not as fluid or natural as experienced players may make it seem.

I know I'm heretical because I dislike using Inner Light, but I really don't think that skill is worth it for a Magplar, especially when it is replacing Reflective Light. As we've mentioned in this thread, templar damage isn't the issue, so it's just boosting the already too dispersed damage and Reflective Light gives the crit and helps focus some of that damage.

I don't use skoria, and most of the time reflective light is either being Dodged or reflected while I'm out 2k mag per cast. The crit bonus is only 6 seconds and stresses me out (especially if I'm trying to upkeep UC, purfying light, ele drain, major sorcery, minor surgery, and my defensive buff). That's 6 spells I have to count; when inner light takes away the one spell on my bar that only lasts 6 seconds while the others last longer depending on my situation.

If I used skoria, I would most likely slot it; but frost reach is essentially the same spell where I instead I get a ranged immobilze to pair with UC for stamina burning.

Vapirko · March 2018

I think it kind of depends on the person, but stam nb because they’re strong in both CP and no CP. Then stam warden close behind or equal followed closely my magblade. Then mag DK, mag sorc, magplar, stamplar, and then stam sorc and stam dk at the bottom. I’ve really no idea about mag warden. In this order I’d say there’s a pretty steep drop from stamplar to stam sorc. I’m unfamiliar with mag sorc but they seem to be pretty strong and are still rated pretty high in solo open world hierarchy by good players. As for Templars, stamina has way more burst damage potential but obviously much less survivability and imo much worse sustain. I’ve tried magblade, Stam Sorc, stam DK, stam warden and stamplar and magplar and so far my favorites in PvP are magblade and stamina templar. I really love my Stam Sorc but I just had to come to terms with the fact that they’re just so far behind all other classes except stam DK when it comes to usable ability morphs and class utility and damage skills.

Maulkin · March 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

This issue is that the damage is dispersed, when in BGs and PvP in general, you rather have it concentrated and focused as that is what gets kills. So 1.7 million damage and only 7 KBs. Templars forced into a 1v1 or worse 1vX Vs. a similarly skilled opponent might get flashy damage values, but is going to struggle securing the kill and winning the fights because it is difficult to focus that damage and the "I'm now offense, now I'm on defense" predictable phases templar game-play is all about.

I don't think the PvP community ihas missed out on the offensive potential of templars. Builds, combinations, FOTM, etc., get around real quick as there is a lot of copycats out there. If offensive predator type templar builds were easy, fluid, natural, etc., I think we'd see a lot of them - most people who PvP want to kill other players at the end of the day.

Sure, your friend, myself, and other templars out there discard the "healbot" stereotype. And for more often than not, we make it work. But it's not easy, it's awkward, too often it means fighting against what the class does well and does not do well, and ultimately a big reason we make it work is we have so much experience with playing a Magplar (more so that the strengths of magplar). Only so many times you go "balls-deep" and then realize your f***** because your opponent(s) are just as experienced as you are and using a class that is better suited for melee single target encounter. Since there's no streak, cloak, or anyway out of the situation before you want to throw your computer out the window.

I'd just like to reiterate again that the reason he's got 1.7m dmg and 7 kills is because he's duoing with me, a Sorc, in a Deathmatch. Any target that we're focusing on has a Fury on him first and foremost, or our kills will get stolen by opposition Sorcs, like the dude Stellious from the red team. The fact my mate even got 7 killing blows means I was slacking if anything. In other game modes, I'm not so aggressive with my kill stealing.

I do not know man, I'm not a MagPlar myself, it's one of the classes I'm missing. So I'm not gonna preach on experienced Templars, that'd be foolish of me. I'm just saying that I observe the vast majority of Templars playing a very conservative game. Maybe because that's what they feel more natural as, or because they rolled Templar to be healers, or because it's frankly easier, or perhaps because if they wanted to play an aggressive game they'd log NB. There can be a host of reasons. I just think that creates an impression that this is all they can do and it doesn't seem right to me.

When experienced, skilled, aggressive MagPlars put the foot down on the damage pedal, I see the dials hit red. Every time. The class does not seem to be lacking damage potential to me, either burst or sustained pressure. It sure lacks the kiting potential, and it's very tricky to play solo even in BGs. But in a coordinated small group it seems like a powerhouse, offensively or defensively.

Just remember this all started as a quick response to Lexxy who said they have low damage btw

Sixty5 · March 2018

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

Maulkin · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

Tbh, put Subterranean into any stam build and it suddenly becomes absolutely terrifying with it.

Sub, Dizzy into Dragon Leap. Sub, Incap into bow proc. Sub, Dawnbreaker/Crescent before PotL explosion. Or even without any other class skills.... just the Warden combo Sub, Dizzy, Dawn.

I mean if all stamina classes had something that, why even play magicka

technohic · March 2018

Sixty5 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

It is a bit redundant with rally but when I’ve run it; I run forward momentum for snares and then it’s just another HOT to help deal with the loss of rally

technohic · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

Tbh, put Subterranean into any stam build and it suddenly becomes absolutely terrifying with it.

Sub, Dizzy into Dragon Leap. Sub, Incap into bow proc. Sub, Dawnbreaker/Crescent before PotL explosion. Or even without any other class skills.... just the Warden combo Sub, Dizzy, Dawn.

I mean if all stamina classes had something that, why even play magicka

Free projectiles defense with major heroism to get those DBOS up for more often combos isn’t bad either

Vapirko · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This issue is that the damage is dispersed, when in BGs and PvP in general, you rather have it concentrated and focused as that is what gets kills. So 1.7 million damage and only 7 KBs. Templars forced into a 1v1 or worse 1vX Vs. a similarly skilled opponent might get flashy damage values, but is going to struggle securing the kill and winning the fights because it is difficult to focus that damage and the "I'm now offense, now I'm on defense" predictable phases templar game-play is all about.

I don't think the PvP community ihas missed out on the offensive potential of templars. Builds, combinations, FOTM, etc., get around real quick as there is a lot of copycats out there. If offensive predator type templar builds were easy, fluid, natural, etc., I think we'd see a lot of them - most people who PvP want to kill other players at the end of the day.

Sure, your friend, myself, and other templars out there discard the "healbot" stereotype. And for more often than not, we make it work. But it's not easy, it's awkward, too often it means fighting against what the class does well and does not do well, and ultimately a big reason we make it work is we have so much experience with playing a Magplar (more so that the strengths of magplar). Only so many times you go "balls-deep" and then realize your f***** because your opponent(s) are just as experienced as you are and using a class that is better suited for melee single target encounter. Since there's no streak, cloak, or anyway out of the situation before you want to throw your computer out the window.

I'd just like to reiterate again that the reason he's got 1.7m dmg and 7 kills is because he's duoing with me, a Sorc, in a Deathmatch. Any target that we're focusing on has a Fury on him first and foremost, or our kills will get stolen by opposition Sorcs, like the dude Stellious from the red team. The fact my mate even got 7 killing blows means I was slacking if anything. In other game modes, I'm not so aggressive with my kill stealing.

I do not know man, I'm not a MagPlar myself, it's one of the classes I'm missing. So I'm not gonna preach on experienced Templars, that'd be foolish of me. I'm just saying that I observe the vast majority of Templars playing a very conservative game. Maybe because that's what they feel more natural as, or because they rolled Templar to be healers, or because it's frankly easier, or perhaps because if they wanted to play an aggressive game they'd log NB. There can be a host of reasons. I just think that creates an impression that this is all they can do and it doesn't seem right to me.

When experienced, skilled, aggressive MagPlars put the foot down on the damage pedal, I see the dials hit red. Every time. The class does not seem to be lacking damage potential to me, either burst or sustained pressure. It sure lacks the kiting potential, and it's very tricky to play solo even in BGs. But in a coordinated small group it seems like a powerhouse, offensively or defensively.

Just remember this all started as a quick response to Lexxy who said they have low damage btw

No doubt magplars are powerhouses in group play. Solo or 1vX though they do lack burst in heavy armor and survivability in ligjt. It takes a real good player. Sure you can stomp people who don’t know what they’re doing and you can bol through a lot of damage. I’d say magplars are good in that in between place with good heals and decent damage.

Sixty5 · March 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

Tbh, put Subterranean into any stam build and it suddenly becomes absolutely terrifying with it.

Sub, Dizzy into Dragon Leap. Sub, Incap into bow proc. Sub, Dawnbreaker/Crescent before PotL explosion. Or even without any other class skills.... just the Warden combo Sub, Dizzy, Dawn.

I mean if all stamina classes had something that, why even play magicka

Honestly I'd settle for power of the light or mer

technohic wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I feel like Stamplar and Stamsorcs are underestimated for the most part lately. There doesn't appear to be much in their class that looks great for stam but they just work well. Stamplars get mobility the class lacks and sorcs can really make use of DOT based healing. Especially now without the AOE caps.

As a Stam Sorc main, the reason I feel that the class is weak is because of the fact that I'm pretty much reliant on weapon abilities and my passives.
My burst options are basically Dizzying Swing into Dawnbreaker, I don't have anything in my kit to really combo with it, and while I do have fancy passives to amp up that damage, but I'd rather have a Power of the Light or Subterranean Assult to throw into that combo.

Hurricane is the only really interesting part of my kit, and even it's damage isn't anything to sing about.
Crit surge honestly isn't worth slotting over Rally or Vigor nowadays.

It is a bit redundant with rally but when I’ve run it; I run forward momentum for snares and then it’s just another HOT to help deal with the loss of rally

I really don't like FM tbh, losing my burst heal hurts, though it would be something I could probably learn to play around

Lexxypwns · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Mageblade - Top tier duel spec, cloak shadow image, will, incap, cripple, mark. Best large group damage spec. Crazy versatile.
Stam Warden - Big burst, great mobility, insane healing
Stamblade - more cloak reliant than mageblade due to lack of proper mitigation tools outside of dodge+cloak
Stamplar - big burst, good heals, the only stam class that can counter defile meta
Mag DK - lacks mobility but has excellent fight control tools, if an mDK gets the upper hand in a fight it is difficult to regain that control without defiles
Magplar - generally low damage, but they’ve got a couple of opportunistic skill that allow them to capitalize on mistakes
Mag Warden - kinda weak solo, insanely strong in group play
Stam Sorc - now that dark deal can’t reliably be interrupted they’ve slide ahead of their magika counterpart because they’re able to build much more burst and they’re more mobile
Mag Sorc - predictable burst and small offensive windows limit mag sorc, it’s mobility and propensity to 100-0 noobs keep it viable
Stam DK - aww, look at that cute little guy with the Dizzying-Leap combo that only take 30% of your health, poor thing

TBF that isn't really the best way to play a stamDK. Defile, heroic and light+ransack+bash. Use fossilize and play like an *** for duels. Still underpowered, but better than the dizzy spammers.

Those specs aren’t viable on console because you can’t unbind block from bash. This means you essentially have 0 sustain when you go offensive. It is 100% not sustainable and without the bash cancel it’s a noticeable loss of damage. You can try to run just LA+ransack/heroic weaves but I haven’t fought a stam DK doing that effectively

Not specifically sure what you mean by unbinding. You can't on a PC IIRC, unless you mean with a macro to reduce time blocking. Since blocking doesn't actually reset your regen tick, only pauses it you will still get some regen. I believe cyrusarya tested it.

Whilst true, it is a heavier sustain loss altogether due to bash, it matter less in a duel because you use less resourcess altogether and can heavy attack. Also DK stam sustain is pretty decent.

I’m 99% sure you have different keybinds for interrupt and block. You could change bash to, say, mouse wheel up and bash without stopping your stam regen(unless a tick happens in that exact instant). However, more importantly, console has an issue where when you bash you get stuck in block for a second or more, snaring you and stopping stam regen while also draining stamina. Since on PC you don’t have to first activate block and then bash this problem doesn’t exist.