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Suggestion: Going rogue in PvP

  • Azurya
    Azurya
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Yes please, make it so that imperial npcs wont attack you but rather fight with you. If there is an emp, make it so that the "rogue faction" can take keeps too and even emp

    no, since such a faction has no use for siege (which is alliance bound) they cannot take a keep, that would be way off
    and therefor they cannot have an emperor
    and for what reason should npcs battle along your side
    rogue is rogue, you are on your own, at best with 3 buddies, and that was it
  • Ghostbane
    Ghostbane
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    Thraben wrote: »
    Ghostbane wrote: »
    How I think this could realistically work:
    • Rogue is a status that you can apply as an option on queuing to Cyro
    • On selecting Rogue, that character is rogue for 24 hours.
    • Everything is your enemy unless they are grouped with you
    • AP gained as Rogue does not count towards a homed leaderboard
    • The 'Rogue popcap' is half that of a current alliances popcap
    • Joining and leaving rogue groups should be fluid experiences, but only possible inside Cyro
    • Being Rogue, you do not have a zone chat, you are on your own, or with a group
    • Rogue spawn points (possibly 12-16 positions scattered around the map) are random, and not selectable
    • If you die, alone, you will randomly spawn at one of these destinations after a timed cooldown like BGs
    • If you are in a group, you'll be given the same Resurrection timer, before being randomly respawned

    With these conditions in place, you are going into Cyro as a Rogue, you are on your own. You can't group queue, you can't do zone pickups, if you want to have a Rogue group, it would have to be an organised effort. There won't be a quickslot menu for inviting people if they are an enemy in Cyro, so if you wanted to add a fellow Rogue to a group, it would have to be via the Party menu.

    As basically every good group would do it, no PuG groups would form (because they would get farmed before reaching a certain amount of players), leaving Cyrodiil deserted, with the rogue groups stealth gatecamping all three factions.

    There is a smaller popcap of Rogue's than alliances. Rogue's can't take objectives as they don't have a faction, so there would be no gatecamping.

    Lots of the 'good groups' have investments in factions and in leaderboards. Taking a 24 hour hit to their emp run, or the inability to make any offensive or defensive ticks, will not be advisable.
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Thraben wrote: »
    Ghostbane wrote: »
    How I think this could realistically work:
    • Rogue is a status that you can apply as an option on queuing to Cyro
    • On selecting Rogue, that character is rogue for 24 hours.
    • Everything is your enemy unless they are grouped with you
    • AP gained as Rogue does not count towards a homed leaderboard
    • The 'Rogue popcap' is half that of a current alliances popcap
    • Joining and leaving rogue groups should be fluid experiences, but only possible inside Cyro
    • Being Rogue, you do not have a zone chat, you are on your own, or with a group
    • Rogue spawn points (possibly 12-16 positions scattered around the map) are random, and not selectable
    • If you die, alone, you will randomly spawn at one of these destinations after a timed cooldown like BGs
    • If you are in a group, you'll be given the same Resurrection timer, before being randomly respawned

    With these conditions in place, you are going into Cyro as a Rogue, you are on your own. You can't group queue, you can't do zone pickups, if you want to have a Rogue group, it would have to be an organised effort. There won't be a quickslot menu for inviting people if they are an enemy in Cyro, so if you wanted to add a fellow Rogue to a group, it would have to be via the Party menu.

    As basically every good group would do it, no PuG groups would form (because they would get farmed before reaching a certain amount of players), leaving Cyrodiil deserted, with the rogue groups stealth gatecamping all three factions.

    Because predatory small groups don’t already prey on pug groups? Lol nothing would change from the factions’ point of view except some of the resource farms on their side of the map would be occupied by grey faction flags instead of colored ones.
    Edited by NightbladeMechanics on February 22, 2018 1:53PM
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  • Thraben
    Thraben
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    Ghostbane wrote: »
    Thraben wrote: »
    Ghostbane wrote: »
    How I think this could realistically work:
    • Rogue is a status that you can apply as an option on queuing to Cyro
    • On selecting Rogue, that character is rogue for 24 hours.
    • Everything is your enemy unless they are grouped with you
    • AP gained as Rogue does not count towards a homed leaderboard
    • The 'Rogue popcap' is half that of a current alliances popcap
    • Joining and leaving rogue groups should be fluid experiences, but only possible inside Cyro
    • Being Rogue, you do not have a zone chat, you are on your own, or with a group
    • Rogue spawn points (possibly 12-16 positions scattered around the map) are random, and not selectable
    • If you die, alone, you will randomly spawn at one of these destinations after a timed cooldown like BGs
    • If you are in a group, you'll be given the same Resurrection timer, before being randomly respawned

    With these conditions in place, you are going into Cyro as a Rogue, you are on your own. You can't group queue, you can't do zone pickups, if you want to have a Rogue group, it would have to be an organised effort. There won't be a quickslot menu for inviting people if they are an enemy in Cyro, so if you wanted to add a fellow Rogue to a group, it would have to be via the Party menu.

    As basically every good group would do it, no PuG groups would form (because they would get farmed before reaching a certain amount of players), leaving Cyrodiil deserted, with the rogue groups stealth gatecamping all three factions.

    1. There is a smaller popcap of Rogue's than alliances. 2. Rogue's can't take objectives as they don't have a faction, so there would be no gatecamping.

    3. Lots of the 'good groups' have investments in factions and in leaderboards. Taking a 24 hour hit to their emp run, or the inability to make any offensive or defensive ticks, will not be advisable.

    1. Even on Vivec EU most rogue groups combined wouldn´t hit the rogue cap.

    2. It´s not about the "gate", they will just camp at the end of each transit route. Without a guild group driving them off, this will take place until the last non-stealth player has logged off, or is desperately typing "LfG" in zone chat for 3 hours. This leads us to

    3. Maybe it´s an EU thing, but almost every guild group prefers "good fights" to almost everything else. You do your Emp run at the beginning of the campaign, then become rogue for the next weeks, and rejoin your faction shortly before the campaign ends. You can even play as a "Privateer", generally loyal to your faction, but independant and able to attack it from time to time if there´s nothing else to do.
    Leaderboards do not matter to players who have been among the best 50 the last 12 months in a row, nor does Emperorship if they are already Ex- Emps. The benefits of being "rogue" (more prestige, more fights instead of boring sieges, the possibility to "punish" the useless PuG Zerg of your own faction for leaching on you or to gank your own faction´s rival guilds) outweighs the disadvantages by far.

    Only reducing the AP gain/ kill would reduce the numbers of the rogue groups sufficiently, because most players cannot afford it for a longer period.
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  • jaws343
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    I like the idea. But I would much rather see a free for all Deathmatch battleground mode first. Why that doesn't exist yet is baffling.
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Yes please, make it so that imperial npcs wont attack you but rather fight with you. If there is an emp, make it so that the "rogue faction" can take keeps too and even emp

    Then that's just a fourth faction.

    Isnt this the point of this thread?
  • casparian
    casparian
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Yes please, make it so that imperial npcs wont attack you but rather fight with you. If there is an emp, make it so that the "rogue faction" can take keeps too and even emp

    Then that's just a fourth faction.

    Isnt this the point of this thread?

    No, the point was to enable a form of grouping in Cyro that is outside of the faction system entirely. That means rogues should have neither the negatives nor the positives of the faction system.
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  • dotme
    dotme
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    I think it would lead to this: Cyrodiil would be all rogues and no factions.

    I think zone chat is salty enough with accusations of "transfactionals" flying everywhere today. At the point where it becomes a free-for-all with the strategy gone, AP farming would be all that remained of the game. And that would be the end of ESO PvP for me.
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  • Asgari
    Asgari
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    3 spawn points one in each triangle of the map in some location with ruins. You can only respawn at 1 ruin based off of your pve faction (DC/AD/EP) to keep rouges from spawning around the map.

    Can cross faction rouge in Cyro but can respawn same locations so you need to horseback to one another.

    3 spawn (spawn based off of pve alliance).
    4 player maxed group size.
    AP earned does not go towards any leaderboard.
    Can only take resource objectives and towns.
    Rouge groups can not team and damage each other. Only your group of 4 is safe.
    NO CAMPS!
    Edited by Asgari on February 22, 2018 6:53PM
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  • WillhelmBlack
    WillhelmBlack
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    I would happily leave DC to become a Rogue.
    PC EU
  • bikerangelo
    bikerangelo
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    Open world/justice system pvp would be better for the overall health of the game. This game is a MMO but it functions like a single player RPG in every zone except Cyrodiil. If you try to inject a wildcard into a 3 faction war that doesn't care about objectives, siege, spawnpoints, etc. the implementation is going to be a mess. You're essentially removing the "boring" parts of Cyrodiil and stripping pvp combat down to just that; combat. The bridge farmers and gate campers can already do whatever they want regardless of which faction they belong to, and since alliance loyalty went extinct a few patches ago there's really no point to making a 4th alliance of hooligans that only want to kill people and not participate in other parts of Cyrodiil. If you don't want to siege, lead pugs, repair walls, or sink hundreds of more hours into horse simulators over broken terrain, then Cyrodiil isn't the place for you. Don't try to fix something that's beyond repair, because apart from 3 towns with some flags, Cyrodiil is going to stay the same for a long time.

    We have dueling, which is great, and battlegrounds which are steadily improving, but the biggest element missing from ESO that could bring it in line with other MMO's out there is dynamic pvp in every zone. The potential could range from bounty systems to risk vs. rewards consequences, and you wouldn't have to wait behind a 130+ queue to participate. Lots of players choose to ignore pvp in ESO because of how disconnected it is from the rest of the game, but if they actually saw more of it in the overworld then they might be more inclined to try it out. And yes this has been suggested hundreds of times on the forums before and tons of players shot it down. Hopefully with dueling being implemented, they won't be so opposed to the idea this time around.

    TL:DR Keep Cyrodiil the way it is, expand pvp to the rest of the zones with a robust justice system to regulate it.
  • CavalryPK
    CavalryPK
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    I support any system that would let you fight any one anywhere anytime. but if that system does not have a reward. only pvpers that absolutely love pvp would go rouge, fighting everyone would be a reward in itself.
    Edited by CavalryPK on February 23, 2018 4:44PM
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  • Slick_007
    Slick_007
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    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Quantum_V wrote: »

    Would you mind to elaborate? How would it be abused?
    .

    you cant seriously tell me with all the whining about players in cyrodiil now that this wouldnt be abused somehow?

    This doesn't answer his question.

    actually it does it you read what everyones complaining about.

    there would be spying, getting into keeps then staying there and going rogue, going rogue in middle of a group, leading your own team into ambushes. thats just 2 seconds worth of thought about how players will *** other players off. it doesnt take a genius to know this wont go well.
  • disintegr8
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    Only if they made a PVP area separate from Cyrodiil - it's bad enough worrying about being ganked by an enemy, let alone by a 'friend'. You already have Battlegrounds and Dueling.

    This sort of thing would reduce the population in Cyrodiil - I know I would never go there again.
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  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Quantum_V wrote: »

    Would you mind to elaborate? How would it be abused?
    .

    you cant seriously tell me with all the whining about players in cyrodiil now that this wouldnt be abused somehow?

    This doesn't answer his question.

    actually it does it you read what everyones complaining about.

    there would be spying, getting into keeps then staying there and going rogue, going rogue in middle of a group, leading your own team into ambushes. thats just 2 seconds worth of thought about how players will *** other players off. it doesnt take a genius to know this wont go well.

    Now you’re implying these things don’t happen already, or wouldn’t be fair game in the first place. Lol
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  • Ectheliontnacil
    Ectheliontnacil
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    In principle the idea sounds awesome!!! :smile:
  • Feanor
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    I’ll never get what so appealing about trolling others.
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  • Mickydanz
    Mickydanz
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    I don't see it working - rouge groups already exist. Small man groups already do exactly the same thing for hours at resources. They have friends on every faction which is good but also bad because they never attack each other, I have seen countless times where ep + dc are just farming ad together and leaving each other alone.

    Honestly I normally ignore these "looking for fun fights groups" cause what they really are 4-8 v 1 pro's. They finally get bored and take their 2nd resource to get continuous buff then after farming the same 1-2 defenders for 5-10 mins siege or cap the keep.

    After they siege or cap the keep, they will 90% of the time get 10-20 defenders to clear them out. Then they cry "oh why did they zerg me" or run laps around the tower til the defenders get bored. Then 3 minutes later they place a forward camp and restart the "looking for fun group" X v 1 players.

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  • SugaComa
    SugaComa
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    Someone needs to go back to the division
  • Quantum_V
    Quantum_V
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    A factionless group of rogues can't accomplish anything of value in Cyrodiil while "looking for good fights".

    What they can do is:
    Bomb everyone
    Gank anyone
    Vulture and try to pick off players fighting for objectives
    Sit on a resource and farm PUGs for hours
    Whine and complain about how they can't take on a Zerg with only four players
    Claim to be the best small scale group around and pat themselves on the back for "finding good fights"

    So its sort of like certain players we all recognize from our own factions, but now they get to fight and kill all factions instead.

    What you're doing here is called an ad hominem argumentative fallacy. As stated on OP, I clearly said the objective of these groups would be to find fun fights. Some people have fun ganking, others bomb, others sit on resources and farm PUGs, 1vXing, etc... Going rogue will precisely allow players to create this scenarios with much more ease.
    Whine and complain about how they can't take on a Zerg with only four players
    Claim to be the best small scale group around and pat themselves on the back for "finding good fights"

    Here you just prove my point - you (for some reason that I can imagine) don't like small scale groups, as this has zero argumentative value. Don't let your rollplaying-oriented pledge to an alliance allow you to commit argumentative fallacies or dictate how people should play their game.
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    Quantum_V wrote: »

    Would you mind to elaborate? How would it be abused?
    .

    you cant seriously tell me with all the whining about players in cyrodiil now that this wouldnt be abused somehow?

    This doesn't answer his question.

    actually it does it you read what everyones complaining about.

    there would be spying, getting into keeps then staying there and going rogue, going rogue in middle of a group, leading your own team into ambushes. thats just 2 seconds worth of thought about how players will *** other players off. it doesnt take a genius to know this wont go well.

    First off, read the post itself, half of your points have already been explained before.

    Secondly, these things happen already.

    Let me try to help you out here:
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    ...getting into keeps then staying there and going rogue, going rogue in middle of a group

    As stated before, you'll have to queue into Cyrodiil as a rogue - you can't randomly go rogue.

    That's just 2 seconds worth of reading. It doesn't take genius to read before typing.
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  • Damien_Uvirith
    Some of the people replying clearly haven't read the thread and it's only 2 pages long...

    I think it could turn out very well if the right limitations were imposed on ''the rogues''. Don't let them take keeps, possible AP debuff, no camps, no zone chat (Since the idea is to promote group play anyway, right?), no groups larger than 4 players, and possibly locking players in as a 'rogue' for X amount of time. The spawning in Chorrol/Cheydinhal wouldn't be a bad idea either.

    Personally I think if this idea were ever implemented it COULD cut back on the ''faction hopping''. I only play in one alliance, but I can imagine other players may switch alliances to fight their alliances own large groups. Rogue groups would accomplish the same thing without the need to have alternate faction characters. Whether that is a good or bad thing would depend on the player and rogue limitations (ie- if your locked in as a rogue for a set period of time, and not just going rogue when your faction isn't doing well)

    And as was already mentioned, overworld PvP and Battlegrounds just aren't the same. Battlegrounds could be a lot better than they are. ZoS can't even decide whether they should be CP or Non-CP.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Quantum_V wrote: »
    A factionless group of rogues can't accomplish anything of value in Cyrodiil while "looking for good fights".

    What they can do is:
    Bomb everyone
    Gank anyone
    Vulture and try to pick off players fighting for objectives
    Sit on a resource and farm PUGs for hours
    Whine and complain about how they can't take on a Zerg with only four players
    Claim to be the best small scale group around and pat themselves on the back for "finding good fights"

    So its sort of like certain players we all recognize from our own factions, but now they get to fight and kill all factions instead.

    What you're doing here is called an ad hominem argumentative fallacy. As stated on OP, I clearly said the objective of these groups would be to find fun fights. Some people have fun ganking, others bomb, others sit on resources and farm PUGs, 1vXing, etc... Going rogue will precisely allow players to create this scenarios with much more ease.
    Whine and complain about how they can't take on a Zerg with only four players
    Claim to be the best small scale group around and pat themselves on the back for "finding good fights"

    Here you just prove my point - you (for some reason that I can imagine) don't like small scale groups, as this has zero argumentative value. Don't let your rollplaying-oriented pledge to an alliance allow you to commit argumentative fallacies or dictate how people should play their game.

    You misunderstand me. I have no problems with small groups or indeed people whose sole aim is to "have good fights" in groups of 4 or less players.

    I have, however, watched enough of those groups to see that for most groups their PVP effectiveness is limited to ganking, bombing, hanging around where the organized groups are fighting and playing off of the fights generated by other people, resource farming, and then complaining that they got zerged when inevitably and organized group decides to deal with them.

    If that's fun for people, by all means, have fun like that. I'm sure there are some fantastic fights to be had.

    My point, however, is that small groups that fight like that aren't accomplishing anything other than fighting and having what is for them a good time. They rely on the organized groups and the objective based players to generate fights. These players already exist in every faction, we've all seen them on our side and on the enemy side. A "rogue" faction as described in the OP merely lets them continue that playstyle against 3/3 factions.
  • montiferus
    montiferus
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    I would very much be in favor of this!!! There are a ton of useless people on DC (XboxNA Vivec) that I would love to go after.

    In order of thirst

    - AP Boosters
    - Faction spies
    - Zone chat idiots
    - AP leeches
    - Siege stealers (Petty I know but still c'mon)
    Edited by montiferus on February 23, 2018 7:18PM
  • The-Baconator
    The-Baconator
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    Another possibility beyond letting people decide what they want to queue as before entering Cryo is granting players the option to fight for their alliance or stay rogue at the beginning of the campaign with the option of switching back and forth mid campaign coming at a high cost (300-500k ap etc). This would probably be the safest way to avoid situations where people who would actually want to use the rogue function for what it's intended getting locked out--assuming a lower cap than the 3 alliances ofc--by faction loyalist RPers trying to weasel their way into Cyrodiil to fight for the queen without taking up valuable pop space.

    Also I feel like a cap of 4 and keeping rogues from taking keeps is just a tad restrictive. I would prefer the cap be set at 8 with rogues not having access to any types of siege weapons. That means if you could manage to swoop in and back cap an alliance that happens to be taking a keep you could then try to repair and hold it (door and wall repair kits have no faction designation) but you couldn't siege and take a keep yourselves. Essentially you would be like a group of opportunistic reavers roaming the map.
    Edited by The-Baconator on February 23, 2018 8:34PM
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  • FinneganFroth
    FinneganFroth
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    This idea is awesome. I could see myself loving being a rogue.
  • rivenjr
    rivenjr
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    How about just a designated campaign that has “friendly fire”?
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