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I Wanted a Dungeon

NyassaV
NyassaV
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I wanted a dungeon, not a progression trial. 'Fix' Scalecaller's Hard Mode. Doing vet is fine. But I highly suggest making the spawn locations of mechanics for the Hard Mode version consistent instead of RNGed
Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    The only thing I think they should look at after the fixes they rolled out today is the telegraph red for the cone from the statue.

    Which isn't a hard mode thing, but part of either version.

    As it is, it's not a "get out of red" warning, but a "you are dead if you were standing here" indicator. You cannot dodge roll out of the red, you cannot run out of it (I was three steps away from it before it killed me twice last night). You have to watch the statue and know it's coming to move before the red is there.

    End of world? no, but dumb, yes.

    What makes it dumb - ZoS's repeated use of one shot mechanics.

    If you are going to just insta-kill people, it should give you clear indication.

    If you aren't just going to hit people without warning, then the penalty shouldn't be insta-death - it could just do 90% of your health and put a healing debuff on you like the cone attack the mini boss in AS does. That way you have a chance to recover, but it will be very hard.

    Let's move away from the RNG aspects of deaths that you've started to rely more and more on and actually allow us to learn and master a fight. Most of the time when people master something, it's just about mit and burn and not the mechanics. Instead of learning to create better mechanics, you just rely on those mechanics being RNG based and one shotting anyone that fails the RNG check.
    -- @xaraan --
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  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    xaraan wrote: »
    The only thing I think they should look at after the fixes they rolled out today is the telegraph red for the cone from the statue.

    Which isn't a hard mode thing, but part of either version.

    As it is, it's not a "get out of red" warning, but a "you are dead if you were standing here" indicator. You cannot dodge roll out of the red, you cannot run out of it (I was three steps away from it before it killed me twice last night). You have to watch the statue and know it's coming to move before the red is there.

    End of world? no, but dumb, yes.

    What makes it dumb - ZoS's repeated use of one shot mechanics.

    If you are going to just insta-kill people, it should give you clear indication.

    If you aren't just going to hit people without warning, then the penalty shouldn't be insta-death - it could just do 90% of your health and put a healing debuff on you like the cone attack the mini boss in AS does. That way you have a chance to recover, but it will be very hard.

    Let's move away from the RNG aspects of deaths that you've started to rely more and more on and actually allow us to learn and master a fight. Most of the time when people master something, it's just about mit and burn and not the mechanics. Instead of learning to create better mechanics, you just rely on those mechanics being RNG based and one shotting anyone that fails the RNG check.

    I dislike one-shot mechanics in General, it seem they thing that makes it hard. But it doesn't it makes them annoying and not very fun. It's more fun to figure out how to do a fight while you are fighting, not get murder and then go "Oh I think I know how it works" @ZOS_Finn
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
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    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.
    PS4 / NA
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  • beetleklee
    beetleklee
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    I don't like how RNG based it is, and even if you quickly react to the cone AOE and dodgeroll/run out of it, you're still dead if you were caught in the middle of it. Sometimes even if I was a few meters outside of the AOE, it still killed me (dunno if that's a hitbox or ping issue, my ping is usually 100-ish)

    We would position ourselves between where the two cone AOEs end up so we could step outside them quickly, but sometimes the fire tether mechanic would screw you up and soft CC you, so if the poison AOE happens to spawn underneath you, you're dead.

    I think they should give it a bit more time before it one shots you and fix the hitbox.
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  • SGT_Wolfe101st
    SGT_Wolfe101st
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    My guild mates and I were just talking about how the new DLC dungeons are mini trials. I am all for difficulty and if it is hard mode I expect things to be taken up a notch but there is a large segment of the ESO population that will never complete this new content on HM. Now, with other dungeons we have seen their difficulty neutered over time but I watched the Dev team fail to accomplish HM and they designed the content or at least have an inside track that we will never have. Kudos to any team that gets HM and even more to a no death run. I know currently I do not have a group or guild that will pull this off, at least not in the near future. I guess having something to work for is cool.
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  • Twenty0zTsunami
    Twenty0zTsunami
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    Hollery wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    The only thing I think they should look at after the fixes they rolled out today is the telegraph red for the cone from the statue.

    Which isn't a hard mode thing, but part of either version.

    As it is, it's not a "get out of red" warning, but a "you are dead if you were standing here" indicator. You cannot dodge roll out of the red, you cannot run out of it (I was three steps away from it before it killed me twice last night). You have to watch the statue and know it's coming to move before the red is there.

    End of world? no, but dumb, yes.

    What makes it dumb - ZoS's repeated use of one shot mechanics.

    If you are going to just insta-kill people, it should give you clear indication.

    If you aren't just going to hit people without warning, then the penalty shouldn't be insta-death - it could just do 90% of your health and put a healing debuff on you like the cone attack the mini boss in AS does. That way you have a chance to recover, but it will be very hard.

    Let's move away from the RNG aspects of deaths that you've started to rely more and more on and actually allow us to learn and master a fight. Most of the time when people master something, it's just about mit and burn and not the mechanics. Instead of learning to create better mechanics, you just rely on those mechanics being RNG based and one shotting anyone that fails the RNG check.

    I dislike one-shot mechanics in General, it seem they thing that makes it hard. But it doesn't it makes them annoying and not very fun. It's more fun to figure out how to do a fight while you are fighting, not get murder and then go "Oh I think I know how it works" @ZOS_Finn

    so you want to be able ot stand in special attacks from boss?

    Where then does the challenge come in?

    Honestly I hate the way people are clamoring for the dumbing down of the game.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Hollery wrote: »
    xaraan wrote: »
    The only thing I think they should look at after the fixes they rolled out today is the telegraph red for the cone from the statue.

    Which isn't a hard mode thing, but part of either version.

    As it is, it's not a "get out of red" warning, but a "you are dead if you were standing here" indicator. You cannot dodge roll out of the red, you cannot run out of it (I was three steps away from it before it killed me twice last night). You have to watch the statue and know it's coming to move before the red is there.

    End of world? no, but dumb, yes.

    What makes it dumb - ZoS's repeated use of one shot mechanics.

    If you are going to just insta-kill people, it should give you clear indication.

    If you aren't just going to hit people without warning, then the penalty shouldn't be insta-death - it could just do 90% of your health and put a healing debuff on you like the cone attack the mini boss in AS does. That way you have a chance to recover, but it will be very hard.

    Let's move away from the RNG aspects of deaths that you've started to rely more and more on and actually allow us to learn and master a fight. Most of the time when people master something, it's just about mit and burn and not the mechanics. Instead of learning to create better mechanics, you just rely on those mechanics being RNG based and one shotting anyone that fails the RNG check.

    I dislike one-shot mechanics in General, it seem they thing that makes it hard. But it doesn't it makes them annoying and not very fun. It's more fun to figure out how to do a fight while you are fighting, not get murder and then go "Oh I think I know how it works" @ZOS_Finn

    so you want to be able ot stand in special attacks from boss?

    Where then does the challenge come in?

    Honestly I hate the way people are clamoring for the dumbing down of the game.

    If you assume people you talk to in life are dumb you won't get very far, that applies here. There are a lot of not very special attacks that one shot all the time. Have you even done the dungeons?
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.

    lol,but that is the easiest DLC, his one-shot mechanic is simply avoided, and even if it kills, its so easy to rez in that fight its laughable.
  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    I want more really, genuinely hard PvE content. I don’t like rng or bugs though. These are really fun dungeons. They’ve made me actually enjoy PvE again.
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  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    Players asked for hard modes to be “harder”.

    There are already published guides from players who have cleared Scalecaller ... so it’s being done with the current mechanics.

    If you want easier hard modes run the non-DLC dungeons.

    I personally like that vet was made easier and hard mode made harder. Skins aren’t handed out like candy that way.
  • Mic1007
    Mic1007
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    Players asked for hard modes to be “harder”.

    There are already published guides from players who have cleared Scalecaller ... so it’s being done with the current mechanics.

    If you want easier hard modes run the non-DLC dungeons.

    I personally like that vet was made easier and hard mode made harder. Skins aren’t handed out like candy that way.

    Those guides won’t help at all with RNG mechanics. Because, you know, it’s random. All they can possibly say is “look out for it!” which theb results in everyone playing the luck game and hoping for the best. There’s no way to get better at RNG.

    RNG =/= Hard.
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  • Faulgor
    Faulgor
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    I thought Horns of the Reach was a step in the right direction. Galchobar and Domihaus for example are great boss fights that require you to pay close attention to the mechanics, and don't overwhelm you with RNG effects everywhere.
    So it's quite disappointing to see Dragon Bones focus on RNG so much again. Fang Lair hardmode is probably the worst offender, it's just too much RNG and one-shots.
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  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Players asked for hard modes to be “harder”.

    There are already published guides from players who have cleared Scalecaller ... so it’s being done with the current mechanics.

    If you want easier hard modes run the non-DLC dungeons.

    I personally like that vet was made easier and hard mode made harder. Skins aren’t handed out like candy that way.

    The issue is that mechanics are RNG dependent a lot. That is very annoying and irritating
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
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  • klowdy1
    klowdy1
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    josiahva wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.

    lol,but that is the easiest DLC, his one-shot mechanic is simply avoided, and even if it kills, its so easy to rez in that fight its laughable.

    Difficulty is subjective. Even after explaining the mechanics three times, my entire group continued to die the last time I ran that. It may be easy for you, I understand what to do, but others might find the concept extremely difficult.
  • Marabornwingrion
    Marabornwingrion
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    ZOS: more mechanics, less one-shot RNG please.
  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    It was fixed just hours after the OP, so this thread has become irrelevant.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4878604/#Comment_4878604
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
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  • Asardes
    Asardes
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    I've actually tried SP HM but it seemed way easier and more predictable than FL HM. I concentrated mostly on clearing the latter over the week end and almost did it a few times. The mechanics are pretty tough there as well. The dungeons are just right overall in difficulty, but the hard modes have some overloaded mechanics, and many of those are very random. Non-HM clears are quite easy, but HM requires almost super-human reaction times. By the time I had fully understood what needed to be done I was so tired I simply couldn't react fast enough. And it wasn't only me. I ran with a very experienced player I know for a long time and even he got killed quite a lot there, so it's clearly not easy by any standards.
    Edited by Asardes on February 20, 2018 12:15PM
    Beta tester since February 2014, played ESO-TU October 2015 - August 2022, currently on an extended break
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  • Ermiq
    Ermiq
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    josiahva wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.

    lol,but that is the easiest DLC, his one-shot mechanic is simply avoided, and even if it kills, its so easy to rez in that fight its laughable.

    It's easy for you probably. But I have seen A LOT of people dying from that shooting balls, even more people dying from the boss "pew pew pew" attack, and people dying because of white circles being spawned too far so they have no chance to jump in it before they get instakilled by AoE.
    As a PUG player, I admit that this boss is definitely one of the most difficult bosses in the game.
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  • josiahva
    josiahva
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    Eremith wrote: »
    josiahva wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.

    lol,but that is the easiest DLC, his one-shot mechanic is simply avoided, and even if it kills, its so easy to rez in that fight its laughable.

    It's easy for you probably. But I have seen A LOT of people dying from that shooting balls, even more people dying from the boss "pew pew pew" attack, and people dying because of white circles being spawned too far so they have no chance to jump in it before they get instakilled by AoE.
    As a PUG player, I admit that this boss is definitely one of the most difficult bosses in the game.

    Not true if everyone does their job. It s the job of the tank to get in front of the boss's machine gun attack and block it....by that same token its the job of the DPS(or healer) to get behind the tank and NOT MOVE so the tank can intercept the attack reliably. Its true that its sometimes difficult as the tank to get positioned right in time with all the moving pools, but far from impossible. The fight itself is not difficult, you just have to learn the mechanics is all. If by shooting balls, you mean the boss clone attacks...that is again the tank not doing his job...when I tank it I either run around in a circle and puncture each clone in turn, or if orbs dont allow that, stand in the middle and spam each clone in series with the ice staff heavy attack(ice staff heavy, dragon blood, ice staff heavy, dragon blood, etc) inner fire can be used as well but is more resource intensive. As for pools spawning too far away, this is where you need communication...tank and healer get priority for nearest pool, DPS go to furthest pool, if you are paying attention, you have enough time to run across the entire arena even as a magicka build to get to the pool, its orbs that are the killer in this fight...and those are solved simply by everyone hugging the walls unless they have a dang good reason not to, that way they always spawn round the outside, leaving the middle clear...a middle full of orbs is a death sentence.
  • Kikke
    Kikke
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    Stop PuGing DLC content... Its not made for pugs, and should not be balanced around PuGs.
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  • asneakybanana
    asneakybanana
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    Hollery wrote: »
    I wanted a dungeon, not a progression trial. 'Fix' Scalecaller's Hard Mode. Doing vet is fine. But I highly suggest making the spawn locations of mechanics for the Hard Mode version consistent instead of RNGed

    Its a tough fight and as frustrating as it can be there are definitely things you can do to make sure the fight has as little RNG as possible. Making sure you are standing on the line between 2 poison cones makes it much easier because you only need to move 1 or 2 steps to either side to avoid the poison cone. Making sure your group is close together so that the zaan mechanic can be blocked for anyone that gets it is also very important and can make it so that people dont seemingly instantly die. IMO the #1 killer is making sure that people dont accidentally get hit by the geyser or the ice mechanic which means someone is going to be guaranteed killed during the poison mechanic and can often be very hard to recover from even just one death because of the 1 shots.

    That said, I think the mechanics are fine, people should not expect to clear a hm dungeon on day 1 of patch release. Its going to take a couple hours and people just have to be very aware of their positioning and movement but once you figure everything out both dungeons get easier.
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  • code65536
    code65536
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    All they really need to change is increase the statue time from 2s to 3s.

    2s is extremely punishing, particularly if you consider the latency-induced discrepancy between what you see on screen vs. what is registering on the game server. I've lost count of the number of times that I--and others--have died while we were entirely out of the cone on our screens. And in HM, with the protection mechanics roaming around all the time, you can't stay on the seam line reliably, as you will inevitably be forced to reposition to avoid consuming the protection mechanic, and then the cone that gives you virtually no time to react starts.

    Simply increasing that cone mechanic from 2s to 3s would make the fight much more reasonable.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
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  • ak_pvp
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    Only thing I would change is make the spawns of the frosties more consistent, or lower the time to death. You have like 5s before you rip and if 2s are spent searching and getting in range if melee its not good design. Melee is at another massive disadvantage in this DLC. Similar to how it is in vFH and vBF where being in melee will get you killed by the AoE effects, so ranged are much preferred.

    Something like vCoS is more fair to all kinds of DPS.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Splattercat_83
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    My guild mates and I were just talking about how the new DLC dungeons are mini trials. I am all for difficulty and if it is hard mode I expect things to be taken up a notch but there is a large segment of the ESO population that will never complete this new content on HM. Now, with other dungeons we have seen their difficulty neutered over time but I watched the Dev team fail to accomplish HM and they designed the content or at least have an inside track that we will never have. Kudos to any team that gets HM and even more to a no death run. I know currently I do not have a group or guild that will pull this off, at least not in the near future. I guess having something to work for is cool.

    Oh well! That portion of the population has like 95 percent of the rest of the game to go do what they wanna do. If they wanna do this content then they need to L2P, or "get gud" lol.
  • newtinmpls
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    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely.

    They aren't challenging, they are just annoying.
    Tenesi Faryon of Telvanni - Dunmer Sorceress who deliberately sought sacrifice into Cold Harbor to rescue her beloved.
    Hisa Ni Caemaire - Altmer Sorceress, member of the Order Draconis and Adept of the House of Dibella.
    Broken Branch Toothmaul - goblin (for my goblin characters, I use either orsimer or bosmer templates) Templar, member of the Order Draconis and persistently unskilled pickpocket
    Mol gro Durga - Orsimer Socerer/Battlemage who died the first time when the Nibenay Valley chapterhouse of the Order Draconis was destroyed, then went back to Cold Harbor to rescue his second/partner who was still captive. He overestimated his resistance to the hopelessness of Oblivion, about to give up, and looked up to see the golden glow of atherius surrounding a beautiful young woman who extended her hand to him and said "I can help you". He carried Fianna Kingsley out of Cold Harbor on his shoulder. He carried Alvard Stower under one arm. He also irritated the Prophet who had intended the portal for only Mol and Lyris.
    ***
    Order Draconis - well c'mon there has to be some explanation for all those dragon tattoos.
    House of Dibella - If you have ever seen or read "Memoirs of a Geisha" that's just the beginning...
    Nibenay Valley Chapterhouse - Where now stands only desolate ground and a dolmen there once was a thriving community supporting one of the major chapterhouses of the Order Draconis
  • Doctordarkspawn
    Doctordarkspawn
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    josiahva wrote: »
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    One shot mechanics are the reason I avoid most dlc dungeons entirely. I spent 3 hours last night in vet icp with my healer, went through two tanks and four dps, and still couldn't get lord warden killed.

    I hate that zos thinks adding rng to boss mechanics and one shot mechanics everywhere is in any way "fun" it even challenging. Its not challenging if its luck based.

    lol,but that is the easiest DLC, his one-shot mechanic is simply avoided, and even if it kills, its so easy to rez in that fight its laughable.

    As people have said, difficulty is subjective.

    If you cant understand that, maybe you oughta stay out of the discussion. Like most of the drones who cry about how easy it is.
  • Taleof2Cities
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    Hollery wrote: »
    The issue is that mechanics are RNG dependent a lot. That is very annoying and irritating

    There’s an easy way to improve your reaction time to RNG mechanics ... go play some PvP for awhile.
  • ZeroXFF
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    1-shots are fine, as long as they can be avoided and leave you enough time to do so (like Galchobhar, probably my favorite fight in HotR).

    What are bad mechanics are those that kill even those people who do everything right, or there simply isn't enough time to react. Example situations:

    1. ICP last boss: falling into another portal because somebody else didn't have enough stam to sprint to a portal, and the portal just happened to be in the center when you fell.
    2. RoM last boss: transitioning to the AoE phase at the same time with a totem spawning and the healer being put on a statue. And on HM also a Stone Shaper starting to throw his rocks for good measure.

    Haven't completed the new dungeons on vet, so I can't comment on their mechanics, but if that is the kind of stuff that happens in them, they will be very frustrating.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    kikkehs wrote: »
    Stop PuGing DLC content... Its not made for pugs, and should not be balanced around PuGs.

    Then zos needs to remove them from the random dungeon queue.
  • Diminish
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    One shot mechanics are artificial difficulty. Health is going to mean nothing in this game eventually if they keep this up. If you get hit, you will die. This is also killing non-stam characters since the only way to survive is to dodge roll. That can get tough with 9k stamina.

    I dont really struggle with any dungeons personally, but I know and see many that do and it is because everything is turning into one *** mechanics that create and endless loop of reviving people. I don't think ZoS knows how to make difficult encounters without them.
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