moved

DoctorESO

moved

MaximillianDiE

Just bring back ground oils. With no aoe cap that would be the bomb

Recremen

There are enough siege options as is, we don't need more point-and-click heroes. Anything that helps organized fights prosper and discourages (but not completely rules out) siege fighting is preferable.

DoctorESO

.

dsalter

just give us a morph of calatrops or flare that can place up to 3-5 "magicka" mines that when stood on places detonation on the target and 2 nearby PLAYERS, so that it cant be overkill in pve

Sharee

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

Elong

Just add a new Battlespirit Debuff, for every player that is within 5 metres of you, you lose 5% of your hp.

Taonnor

I think the biggest reason after aoe caps is the overheal in zerg. Aoe caps are gone, second step should be aoe healing group only.

Turelus

So... volcanic rune?

Recremen

Elong wrote: »

Just add a new Battlespirit Debuff, for every player that is within 5 metres of you, you lose 5% of your hp.

Not realistic from a programming standpoint, not a good idea because it would be easy to troll your own faction with it, and really just a bad, petty design.

Subversus

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

Just bring back ground oils. With no aoe cap that would be the bomb

It would also be very stupid

Chrlynsch

Sharee wrote: »

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

I've thought something similar a while ago.

Inevitable detonation, if attempted to be purged it explodes/ spreads to enemies hit. Doesn't affect Pve/ not effective on smaller groups. If needed shrink the range of the detonation.

Elong

Recremen wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Just add a new Battlespirit Debuff, for every player that is within 5 metres of you, you lose 5% of your hp.

Not realistic from a programming standpoint, not a good idea because it would be easy to troll your own faction with it, and really just a bad, petty design.

That's why it's a good idea!

Satiar

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

I've thought something similar a while ago.

Inevitable detonation, if attempted to be purged it explodes/ spreads to enemies hit. Doesn't affect Pve/ not effective on smaller groups. If needed shrink the range of the detonation.

If Inevitable Det didn't have a cast time this actually might work.

Sixty5

What's wrong with Coldfire Ballistas?

DoctorESO

.

Sanct16

Satiar wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

I've thought something similar a while ago.

Inevitable detonation, if attempted to be purged it explodes/ spreads to enemies hit. Doesn't affect Pve/ not effective on smaller groups. If needed shrink the range of the detonation.

If Inevitable Det didn't have a cast time this actually might work.

And then you realise that organised groups can also spam inev deto on pugs.

Sharee

Sanct16 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

I've thought something similar a while ago.

Inevitable detonation, if attempted to be purged it explodes/ spreads to enemies hit. Doesn't affect Pve/ not effective on smaller groups. If needed shrink the range of the detonation.

If Inevitable Det didn't have a cast time this actually might work.

And then you realise that organised groups can also spam inev deto on pugs.

Pugs generally don't have dedicated purge spammers tho, which means whoever is affected will have plenty of time to react.

Texas

Sanct16 wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Someone somewhere has suggested a change to inevitable detonation that i rather like:

ID no longer triggers when purged/cannot be purged (so it always blows up after 4 seconds).
ID does zero damage if there are less than X players in it's radius when it goes off.
However if there are more than X players, it simply instantly kills all enemies in the explosion radius.

X (and radius) can be adjusted for balance.

That should make them spread out

I've thought something similar a while ago.

Inevitable detonation, if attempted to be purged it explodes/ spreads to enemies hit. Doesn't affect Pve/ not effective on smaller groups. If needed shrink the range of the detonation.

If Inevitable Det didn't have a cast time this actually might work.

And then you realise that organised groups can also spam inev deto on pugs.

And then you realize that pugs aren't stacked as tight as organized groups so the friendlies hit by/spread to isn't as harmful. Also purge isn't a commonly slotted pug ability like Sharee stated above.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

If you want to counter a group you need to do it in an organised manner. There should also be some risk to it. I.e. going into their range to kill them.

People should be extremely careful what they wish for with changes like this. Remember that nerfing organised group play is a buff to the unorganised (or organised) mega zergs.

Ranger209

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

If you want to counter a group you need to do it in an organised manner. There should also be some risk to it. I.e. going into their range to kill them.

People should be extremely careful what they wish for with changes like this. Remember that nerfing organised group play is a buff to the unorganised (or organised) mega zergs.

Balling up is only one form of organized play. There are many ways to organize and use strategy, tactics, intel, deception, etc. that don't include balling up. Balling up and using multiple layers of buffs to create near invincible states needs counters. They shouldn't immediately wreck ball groups, but they should remove the invincible status. That would be the goal as I see it. No one group of players should be invincible.

Thraben

Magicka classes have a lot of skills that work (now):

Inevitable Deto > Cristal Blast > Spear Shards > Unstable Core > Vulcanic Rune > Ring of Elements (fire), supported by some Meteors, Pollen and Backlash.
(Though I´d avoid Meteors because we all know what happens to the servers when people decide to use Meteors again) Yes, it might be more difficult than "Proxy in 3-2-1" + Eye of the Noob + Permafrost and Negate, but it ought to be so, because of the advantages of ranged combat.

The only real issue here is that STAMINA classes are indeed useless from range.

Either Silver Shards or Caltrops need to be changed, nothing else. I´d prefer Silver Shards because they can be countered by good groups, but not by bad ones.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Ranger209 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

If you want to counter a group you need to do it in an organised manner. There should also be some risk to it. I.e. going into their range to kill them.

People should be extremely careful what they wish for with changes like this. Remember that nerfing organised group play is a buff to the unorganised (or organised) mega zergs.

Balling up is only one form of organized play. There are many ways to organize and use strategy, tactics, intel, deception, etc. that don't include balling up. Balling up and using multiple layers of buffs to create near invincible states needs counters. They shouldn't immediately wreck ball groups, but they should remove the invincible status. That would be the goal as I see it. No one group of players should be invincible.

There are no invincible groups in game. The majority of groups which ball up already die extremely fast no further counter is needed. Shouting in zone and brining the faction of 120 players to one keep is a form of "organisation" sure. The counter for that is ball groups. If you remove ball groups that will have no counter and we have AV style trains running around the map in one direction with no combat in between.

ZOS developed features to promote organised groups and ball group play. The Crown symbol is perhaps the biggest example of this and because of this they have a very dynamic and fluid map with viable counters to all playstyles.

Being a special snowflake yet also be able to counter organised groups without equal levels of coordination and organisation. Just no.

I'm sorry but it's not a good suggestion.

Also in specific regard to your comment about it not being the only way to play. I agree if I'm trying to counter a bomb group with far fewer numbers the last thing you want to do is ball up.

Sandman929

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

AyelineESO

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

This. It needed to be said

Sharee

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

Not really. The real complaint is this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’re also beginning to look at ways to improve group combat in Cyrodiil, particularly when groups of varying sizes fight each other. Some specific concerns we’ve been looking into include:

[*] Not enough effective options to deal damage to clustered groups from afar
[*] Earthgore is too powerful in group vs group battles
[*] Not enough diversity in Ultimate choice
[*] Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them

We’re still talking about what exactly we’ll be doing, but once we have a better idea of the direction we’re taking, we’ll include it in one of the next combat updates.

...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

"Not being affected" is not a counter. If they can ignore you, then you are not countering them in any way.

The-Baconator

Sharee wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

Not really. The real complaint is this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’re also beginning to look at ways to improve group combat in Cyrodiil, particularly when groups of varying sizes fight each other. Some specific concerns we’ve been looking into include:

[*] Not enough effective options to deal damage to clustered groups from afar
[*] Earthgore is too powerful in group vs group battles
[*] Not enough diversity in Ultimate choice
[*] Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them

We’re still talking about what exactly we’ll be doing, but once we have a better idea of the direction we’re taking, we’ll include it in one of the next combat updates.

...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

"Not being affected" is not a counter. If they can ignore you, then you are not countering them in any way.

Then what exactly are people requesting? Should small groups or even single players be able to just press inev det and force an elite ball group composed of some of the best players on their platform that's min maxed to fight large groups to scatter or immediately fall over? Right now I can take 3-4 friends and with minimal effort put in to building to counter groups, having one negate and 2-3 ranged destros, and instantly melt 90% of groups when they are stacked in a choke\flag from range without exposing yourself to their PBAoE damage. The options for ranged AoE damage are there but not quite as reliable or effective as PBAoE in situations that would demand risk on the part of the PBAoE user, as it should be. If you're more interested in seeing ball group game play come to an end rather than simply adding in the means to deal damage from range, I would worry more about how 99% of worthwhile utility\healing skills in the game demand everyone to be in the same 8x8 space to be effective.

Sharee

The-Baconator wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

Not really. The real complaint is this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’re also beginning to look at ways to improve group combat in Cyrodiil, particularly when groups of varying sizes fight each other. Some specific concerns we’ve been looking into include:

[*] Not enough effective options to deal damage to clustered groups from afar
[*] Earthgore is too powerful in group vs group battles
[*] Not enough diversity in Ultimate choice
[*] Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them

We’re still talking about what exactly we’ll be doing, but once we have a better idea of the direction we’re taking, we’ll include it in one of the next combat updates.

...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

"Not being affected" is not a counter. If they can ignore you, then you are not countering them in any way.

Then what exactly are people requesting?

Look at the thread topic?

Vilestride

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

Ranger209

The-Baconator wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Do these invincible "ball groups" have special limited edition characters or skills to which no one else has access? Are they able to force poor coordination or a lack of desire to cooperate within the ranks of their competitors? That seems unlikely. The real complaint here is that there are groups that coordinate, plan and execute better than others, and the others really don't like it. They want the organized group to lose, but not by doing what's necessary to make themselves win. That's just too boring for them, right? After all, it's just "easy" and they're skilled players, right?
You can change the skills an organized group uses, or create new skills that you think counter tight coordination and consistent execution, but in the end the groups that work well together will use those tools to continue winning and the groups that don't like it will continue looking for the magic bullet to turn their success to failure.

Not really. The real complaint is this:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’re also beginning to look at ways to improve group combat in Cyrodiil, particularly when groups of varying sizes fight each other. Some specific concerns we’ve been looking into include:

[*] Not enough effective options to deal damage to clustered groups from afar
[*] Earthgore is too powerful in group vs group battles
[*] Not enough diversity in Ultimate choice
[*] Large groups can have players take on specialized utility roles, reducing counter-play options against them

We’re still talking about what exactly we’ll be doing, but once we have a better idea of the direction we’re taking, we’ll include it in one of the next combat updates.

...

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

The "ranged counter" to ball groups is range itself. You cannot be affected by then if you stay at range (provided you are aware of your surroundings)

"Not being affected" is not a counter. If they can ignore you, then you are not countering them in any way.

Then what exactly are people requesting? Should small groups or evens single players be able to just press inev det and force an elite ball group composed of some of the best players on their platform that's min maxed to fight large groups to scatter or immediately fall over? Right now I can take 3-4 friends and with minimal effort put in to building to counter groups, having one negate and 2-3 ranged destros, and instantly melt 90% of groups when they are stacked in a choke\flag from range without exposing yourself to their PBAoE damage. The options for ranged AoE damage are there but not quite as reliable or effective as PBAoE in situations that would demand risk on the part of the PBAoE user, as it should be. If you're more interested in seeing ball group game play come to an end than simply adding in the means to deal damage from range, I would worry more about how 99% of worthwhile utility\healing skills in the game demand everyone to be in the same 8x8 space to be effective.

I am interested to see how the changes they have made play out. I am seeing a difference from pre-update to post-update. Is it enough? Is it too much? That remains to be seen. It definitely feels better than it did before, but the sample size is too small yet to say for sure.

Satiar

My favourite Bulb quote for ESO applies here: you can’t nerf teamwork.

All sorts of changes have happened to group play. Look at old DIE clips, Havoc clips, VE clips from 1.5 all the way through barrier nerfs, purge nerfs, rapids nerfs, vicious death, current Drac clips, etc.. From bats to DKS to prox leaps to steel tornado to meteor to DB to tether to negate and destro, etc. Group play has changed in drastic ways, it’s been targeted by specific nerfs designed to cripple its effectiveness.

But it’ll never really work without outright breaking the game. Good teams will be good and become more than the sum of their parts.