What do you think about animation cancelling as a means to increase DPS?

MehrunesFlagon

Lysette wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I used to be against it vehemently. But the more I look at it, ZOS has kinda dug themselves into a hole with it, so I don't care about it too much nowadays.

If they really wanted to get rid of it, they'd need to have every attack have its own individual GCD based on its animation length. Have more attacks that lead into combos with one another in a similar fashion to that of the DK power lash, so the slower attacks feel like they have more 'weight'. Overhaul the resource costs that come with an across the board slowing of resource expenditure, balance the DPS of all skills and rotations (or balance the health of enemies). As well as resource returning items.

I don't think this is something that anyone at ZOS will entertain. As I doubt it fits into any timeframe of theirs.

However, one thing that I do hope that they will eventually do, is introduce animation blending for Light and Heavy attacks/abilities.

It's actually quite simple to solve - with a dps cap - if one cannot do more than this, people will no longer do it, if they have already enough dps to reach the cap without it.

Edit: and as a side effect, if it is made low enough, hybrid builds become viable - now scale the bigger enemies down with a global scaling factor - and done - this does not take much time at all. It all could be done, but it takes the will to do so.

No, no and no.

Lysette

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I used to be against it vehemently. But the more I look at it, ZOS has kinda dug themselves into a hole with it, so I don't care about it too much nowadays.

If they really wanted to get rid of it, they'd need to have every attack have its own individual GCD based on its animation length. Have more attacks that lead into combos with one another in a similar fashion to that of the DK power lash, so the slower attacks feel like they have more 'weight'. Overhaul the resource costs that come with an across the board slowing of resource expenditure, balance the DPS of all skills and rotations (or balance the health of enemies). As well as resource returning items.

I don't think this is something that anyone at ZOS will entertain. As I doubt it fits into any timeframe of theirs.

However, one thing that I do hope that they will eventually do, is introduce animation blending for Light and Heavy attacks/abilities.

It's actually quite simple to solve - with a dps cap - if one cannot do more than this, people will no longer do it, if they have already enough dps to reach the cap without it.

Edit: and as a side effect, if it is made low enough, hybrid builds become viable - now scale the bigger enemies down with a global scaling factor - and done - this does not take much time at all. It all could be done, but it takes the will to do so.

No, no and no.

I didn't suggest to do that - I just countered the argument, that it couldn't be done because it would be too much work - it can actually be done by just adding 2 numbers and weave them into the code - which is as well not difficult to do. it could solve a couple of problems - like having just these boring min/max archetypes as viable options - instead there would be an advantage in creating hybrids - and with it there would be a diversity like never before in ESO.

Dragath

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Dragath wrote: »

light attack weaving wasn't an intended feature, it slipped through when changing the game in early alpha from auto attacking to the left click system we have now.
because zos is not able to change how it works, they are fine with it.
personally, i really like the weaving system. it makes the combat more interesting because you actually have to keep track of what you are doing a little bit more than with the usual auto attack and punishes lazy players.

I'm prettttttty sure zenimax DID design it this way on thieves guild patch on purpose. ;p fyi they did have a pts. Zeni loves the weave, deal with it.

i don't think you did even read what i wrote.
i am talking about early alpha of the game. you know.. LONG before it was released. this has nothing to do with the change to animations.
and i'm not sure what you mean with "deal with it".
i did say that i like it.
you really didn't read or understood what i said, did you?

chaz

Animation canceling is just an exploit, a good cheat by those that don't know how to play good. It's been around since the dawn of time and has become commonplace. Commonplace meaning no developer ever, is going to fix it by forcing you to play out the FULL animation of an attack as it is intended. Most unskilled players using it to quickly cast multiple spells and attacks at you (Especially sorcs cuz it's the most easiest to use) so that you die a lot quicker giving them a false sense of actually being good.

As far as increasing your DPS, well like I said in example of Sorcs using AC a lot, if you were to hit a target dummy with normal based attacks and spell casts you may get 4K to maybe 7K DPS reading at the end using a 200K or 300K target dummy. Using AC to hit the target faster , quicker and more often, you might bring your DPS up to 15K to 20K. If not more if this is your first time trying this.

As for my opinion, I knew this was an exploit and always considered it a cheat for years, years and years and tey even more years and nothing will ever convince me it's not a cheat. It's just one of those life facts either you chose to use it or you don't. If you do, no one is going to call you a cheat, well I mean they may if you burn people like in pvp very quickly and unusual, ((What I mean by that is the original statement, sorcs for example, are good at using AC and can quickly burn a target, That is unusual """Because everyone else isn't doing that""" thus the cheat and they can't really play good, so forgive them for lack of skills)) However that said, again because it's a commonplace exploit where is a majority of games AC exists, and nothing we can do about it, is will be ok if you use Animation Canceling to see what your potential is. And who cares what names others call you, you don't take these people home with you.

So try it out, I recommend using a Sorcerer. Use Animation Canceling between attacks. Start off slow so you can get used to it.

Light attack (Skill cast)(AC) Light attack (skill cast)(AC) Light attack (skill cast)(AC)

Wash rinse repeat.

I don't know them personally but, I know a good cheater that uploaded a good how to video on youtube how to do animation canceling to give people a basic idea. (Remembering ToS naming and shaming), just go to youtube and search some thing. I'm sure you'll find it useful.

klowdy1

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

casting a skill and quickly pressing block" that does not help your damage at all.

No, but that is the only animation cancelling I do, and I do it of necessity, as I wrote in the OP: when I have to roll, block or heal. I don't enjoy animation otherwise. Having to weave light attacks is super annoying imo, I don't enjoy it. But I guess people really enjoy playing like that?

What be is saying is animation cancelling, which does not help increase dps, is being confused with attack weaving, which does help.

Luigi_Vampa

Lysette wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I used to be against it vehemently. But the more I look at it, ZOS has kinda dug themselves into a hole with it, so I don't care about it too much nowadays.

If they really wanted to get rid of it, they'd need to have every attack have its own individual GCD based on its animation length. Have more attacks that lead into combos with one another in a similar fashion to that of the DK power lash, so the slower attacks feel like they have more 'weight'. Overhaul the resource costs that come with an across the board slowing of resource expenditure, balance the DPS of all skills and rotations (or balance the health of enemies). As well as resource returning items.

I don't think this is something that anyone at ZOS will entertain. As I doubt it fits into any timeframe of theirs.

However, one thing that I do hope that they will eventually do, is introduce animation blending for Light and Heavy attacks/abilities.

It's actually quite simple to solve - with a dps cap - if one cannot do more than this, people will no longer do it, if they have already enough dps to reach the cap without it.

Edit: and as a side effect, if it is made low enough, hybrid builds become viable - now scale the bigger enemies down with a global scaling factor - and done - this does not take much time at all. It all could be done, but it takes the will to do so.

This would be so boring. If you set that cap low enough then good players would be bored out of their minds with nothing to do, and no way to improve their damage.

Swifigames

DarkAedin wrote: »

Swifigames wrote: »

I don't like it
Why not just scratch it and buff up damage output in general to streamline the process?
Is Cyrodiil the reason? God do I hate Cyrodiil...with such a passion in my heart. Which is strange to a point, as I love the game pretty hardcore. PvP is just a different monster entirely...practically two games in one, this one.

No and terrible assumption.

Alright, why then? I just genuinely don't know why.
I don't understand why someone should have to use such an absurd non-essential controller master control skill-set to achieve an acceptable amount of DPS. Do I suck at DPS? Yes...I can't break 21k. Now, am I running the proper gear and BiS Skills, no probably not. I hit 21 DPS with an Ironblood Bow, a 5 piece Blood Drinker, 5 piece Pillar of Nirn, and other crap that doesn't mesh the best together at one point about a month ago.
So then I got this crazy idea that I'd redistribute my skills & morphs now that I had my highest to-date DPS...what happened? I screwed up my 21k DPS. Now I can't break 16k with the same character...think I switched a few morphs out along the way.

I just get frustrated...I like playing my NB but it's just a b**ch. I wish I never redistributed my skill points at this point.
Honestly though...I know it all comes down to trial and error, but when trial and error can cost so much I start losing interest and move on to other things...like my healer. Easy, laid-back, even lazy at times playing a healer...almost too easy. The contrast from one class to the next is strange and cool at the same time.
I just wish I understood everything and I don't. Why did my DPS drop THIS much when I only changed one skill morph, why did my DPS drop THIS much when I swapped out for different gear when the gear is basically saying the DPS should be going up? I...just...don't...get things in here sometimes.
Did this sound like a rant? It mostly was. I love & hate my NB.
Woah there cowboy....you say you want to come hang out in trials? Well, what's your CP & DPS? is it at least 25k? No, then *** off...play somewhere else. Thanks community...thanks. Too many ellipses? Oh, well...

DarkAedin

Guys. U hit light attack, then u hit an ability. Wait for the ability to play out. Hit light attack again.
Ur problem is that ur spamming ur buttons and not timing *** out.

Literally an l2p issue. Git gud

temjiu

I usually find only 2 reasons people do it:

1) To make combat feel faster
2) To increase DPS

I rarely see people doing it because they "Like" it. But it is in the game, and the way the combat mechanics are designed, it would take a ton of time and resources to change it. For the relatively small amount of people that despise it, most get used to it and pay it no mind. Thus it's probably not even on ZOS radar to do anything about.

I used to avoid it for personal reasons, but after I came back to the game and heavy attacks were a thing (resource regen), I got used to it. it's not a huge deal actually, if you do it right. and you don't need to spam it like a spaz to get results either. I like the description of Attack Weaving over Animation Cancelling. Used to be certain skills were glitched and you could actually spam them faster with AC. Nowadays, most of that is fixed, and spells all deal with a GCD, so it's really about weaving in another skill during that GCD.

trying to cut animation A down by using block is simply a waste of time and a waste of a block. But weaving in Light attacks, or a skill right after a heavy attack, is simply weaving in a skill.

kypranb14_ESO

Visually, I dislike animation cancelling. It makes video games look clunky/glitchy, and it can ruin the player's immersion.

Mechanically, I like animation cancelling. ESO is among many games with a slow combat system which is speed up by animation cancelling.

(I know you can't cast abilities faster, but light attacking in between the 1 second wait time for abilities is great)

Jhalin

chaz wrote: »

Animation canceling is just an exploit, a good cheat by those that don't know how to play good. It's been around since the dawn of time and has become commonplace. Commonplace meaning no developer ever, is going to fix it by forcing you to play out the FULL animation of an attack as it is intended. Most unskilled players using it to quickly cast multiple spells and attacks at you (Especially sorcs cuz it's the most easiest to use) so that you die a lot quicker giving them a false sense of actually being good.

As far as increasing your DPS, well like I said in example of Sorcs using AC a lot, if you were to hit a target dummy with normal based attacks and spell casts you may get 4K to maybe 7K DPS reading at the end using a 200K or 300K target dummy. Using AC to hit the target faster , quicker and more often, you might bring your DPS up to 15K to 20K. If not more if this is your first time trying this.

As for my opinion, I knew this was an exploit and always considered it a cheat for years, years and years and tey even more years and nothing will ever convince me it's not a cheat. It's just one of those life facts either you chose to use it or you don't. If you do, no one is going to call you a cheat, well I mean they may if you burn people like in pvp very quickly and unusual, ((What I mean by that is the original statement, sorcs for example, are good at using AC and can quickly burn a target, That is unusual """Because everyone else isn't doing that""" thus the cheat and they can't really play good, so forgive them for lack of skills)) However that said, again because it's a commonplace exploit where is a majority of games AC exists, and nothing we can do about it, is will be ok if you use Animation Canceling to see what your potential is. And who cares what names others call you, you don't take these people home with you.

So try it out, I recommend using a Sorcerer. Use Animation Canceling between attacks. Start off slow so you can get used to it.

Light attack (Skill cast)(AC) Light attack (skill cast)(AC) Light attack (skill cast)(AC)

Wash rinse repeat.

I don't know them personally but, I know a good cheater that uploaded a good how to video on youtube how to do animation canceling to give people a basic idea. (Remembering ToS naming and shaming), just go to youtube and search some thing. I'm sure you'll find it useful.

can you show me on the doll where animation canceling touched you

rfennell_ESO

Jayman1000 wrote: »

I hate doing animation cancelling so I just don't do it most of the times except when I actually need to do another action, like heal, block, dodge roll etc. Even when it means Im being less effective with my dps. Im wondering if it is an intended feature? Did zos devs actually plan for animation cancelling to be an important part of attaining higher dps?

What do you guys think, do you find it fun to do animation cancelling to increase dps or would you rather you wouldn't have to animation cancel to increase dps?

I love it because I want to develop carpal tunnel.

Draxys

holy crap we need a pinned dev thread on this, solely to clear up the abundance of misinformation and misled, smug BS attitudes towards this whole topic- canceling, weaving, all of it. This thread is ridiculous.

Linaleah

klowdy1 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

casting a skill and quickly pressing block" that does not help your damage at all.

No, but that is the only animation cancelling I do, and I do it of necessity, as I wrote in the OP: when I have to roll, block or heal. I don't enjoy animation otherwise. Having to weave light attacks is super annoying imo, I don't enjoy it. But I guess people really enjoy playing like that?

What be is saying is animation cancelling, which does not help increase dps, is being confused with attack weaving, which does help.

except weaving does cancel animations, it's how it adds so much to dps, becasue you get essentially free damage in. the problem is - its highly dependent on twitchy reflexes, ping all that "fun" stuff honestly? I hate it. I hate it a lot. but.. at this point content is basically tuned to dps that is ONLY possible if you light or heavy attack weave, aka animation cancel.

Faulgor

I hate the inconsistency about it, the hiccups, the jankyness, the epileptic feel.

There are games that employ animation cancelling (or attack weaving, whatever you want to call it) appropriately as part of their gameplay - mostly something like fighting games. ESO is not one of those. Here, animation canceling is an afterthought, an emergent phenomenon rather than a deliberate design.
Games with proper AC also focus on minimizing other factors that interfer with correct execution, such as lag, client/server performance, or input delay. All of these are huge variants in ESO's gameplay, which makes the focus on execution such a frustrating experience. You can practice on a target dummy until you dream about light attack rotations, your muscle memory timing won't amount to anything in a laggy trial environment.
These inconsistencies are unacceptable for gameplay that has high demands on the players' execution. Either they need to improve game performance dramatically, or ease on the execution requirement.

Bbsample197

If you dont like it then dont do it, whats the point of this thread? to fuel flames again? if you did some forum search we have two to three topics about this just comment there and dont post a new one just to start a flame war

Enslaved

Animation canceling is one of few things that separate truly skilled players from the rest.

Zypheran

ZOS keeping talking about lowering the power gap between the top and the bottom dps levels. Surely would removing AC not reduce the gap between those doing 50k dps and those doing 20k

Destruent

Zypheran wrote: »

ZOS keeping talking about lowering the power gap between the top and the bottom dps levels. Surely would removing AC not reduce the gap between those doing 50k dps and those doing 20k

If you mean LA-weaving with AC it would just reduce the 50k DPS to ~45k (otherwise it's only ~1k DPS decrease) DPS and make everyone else cry bc they die even more in PvP.
Sounds great, isn't it?

KingYogi415

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

Destruent

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-candle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

But...But...my rotation is perfect, it HAS to be animation cancelling!

Aurielle

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

I don't get it. I don't understand why it's so hard for someone to just tap a fetching button after an attack. It is LITERALLY one more button. There isn't some big secret or technique. Just.......tap.......a.............button....

It's not that it is hard, that is not the reason. It's because I simply just don't enjoy doing it, it feels... I don't know. It feels like it's sort of a n exploit that I constantly have to do if I want to max dps. Very unsatisfying gameplay.

I'm so tired of explaining this. It's not an exploit. We actively weave here to replicate the passive auto-attacking that is common to many, many, many MMORPGs. Read up on auto-attacking here: https://biobreak.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/in-defense-of-auto-attack/

I hate auto-attack MMOs; the combat in those games is so boring and simple. In ESO, you actually have to click your light attack button to get that small amount of melee/range damage in addition to the damage from your skills, rather than having the game do that for you while you wait for your cooldowns to refresh. It's active, and it's engaging.

EvilCroc

I can understand why it will never be removed, but i would like to see it gone. I want to see all visual effects and not only because of my L2P issues, but from aesthetics side too.

Romo

Enslaved wrote: »

Animation canceling is one of few things that separate truly skilled players from the rest.

Many folks state this/ or the git gud bs. Not to pick on you but to all of that group:

It is not skill/ or "gud" play... most of it is ping related, bad ping and the use of this is next to impossible.

With good ping of course you become "elite" in the use of this "skill".

LordSemaj

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

^ This.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

Also this.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

This too.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

And this.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

But especially this.

Starlight_Knight

i dont like it, i dont like how it favour macro users and stam light attack skill bash builds for pvp, but without it combat would feel slow and unresponsive. at this point i feel its like a necessary evil.

Jade1986

They should just increase the animation speeds so we can at least see the attacks even if they are quicker.

Nihility42

Lysette wrote: »

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I used to be against it vehemently. But the more I look at it, ZOS has kinda dug themselves into a hole with it, so I don't care about it too much nowadays.

If they really wanted to get rid of it, they'd need to have every attack have its own individual GCD based on its animation length. Have more attacks that lead into combos with one another in a similar fashion to that of the DK power lash, so the slower attacks feel like they have more 'weight'. Overhaul the resource costs that come with an across the board slowing of resource expenditure, balance the DPS of all skills and rotations (or balance the health of enemies). As well as resource returning items.

I don't think this is something that anyone at ZOS will entertain. As I doubt it fits into any timeframe of theirs.

However, one thing that I do hope that they will eventually do, is introduce animation blending for Light and Heavy attacks/abilities.

It's actually quite simple to solve - with a dps cap - if one cannot do more than this, people will no longer do it, if they have already enough dps to reach the cap without it.

Edit: and as a side effect, if it is made low enough, hybrid builds become viable - now scale the bigger enemies down with a global scaling factor - and done - this does not take much time at all. It all could be done, but it takes the will to do so.

No, no and no.

I didn't suggest to do that - I just countered the argument, that it couldn't be done because it would be too much work - it can actually be done by just adding 2 numbers and weave them into the code - which is as well not difficult to do. it could solve a couple of problems - like having just these boring min/max archetypes as viable options - instead there would be an advantage in creating hybrids - and with it there would be a diversity like never before in ESO.

Diversity among the three players still playing, right before the servers shut down.

Nihility42

LordSemaj wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

^ This.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

Also this.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

This too.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

And this.

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Clicking light attack before casting a skill will add around 3-4K dps.

People need to stop acting like not being able to weave or ani-cancle is why they pull 15k dps instead of 40k.

But especially this.

This is an insightful post. Have to agree.

If you pull 15k DPS, it's because you're low level or bad. Animation cancelling is a tiny, insignificant part of the equation.

Camb0Sl1ce

I can hit 40k and its not from block cancelling an animation its from weaving, "cancelling an animation with block" will not bypass a skills gcd. I believe there was an old thread I read where @Izaki (could be wrong though) said he had met a guy that actually increased hia dps when he was asked to weave instead of jerky block cancelling.