P2W - where do we draw the line?

Merlin13KAGL

How does being a Master Crafter help you 'win?'

It's not the only way you can obtain the title. It's not as if there are not other MC's on that can make whatever gear you need.

Research scrolls are about as far from P2W as it gets. They give you nothing you cannot obtain in game normally.

Regarding Class change tokens, at best you should be able to template a character you've already played.

Maxed a Mag DK once before? Want to pay to change a character to have the same skills unlocked, etc as that MagDK? Go nuts.

Never touched a Templar in your life, but want to suddenly be a L50 all skills unlocked variety?

Better get to leveling.

Class change should come with the caveat that you should already have experience with the class. If you don't, you need to, and you need to the old fashioned way.

QuebraRegra

Niobium wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Class change token? Why so against leveling up another character? Everyone gets enough slots to have every class....heck I have 3 characters in each class.

Thats just my opinion. I bet that ZOS isnt doing it for some technical reason.

Class change would be fine if starting from level 1 again.

Nothing against leveling up a new character.. but with a class change token you don't have to spend 6 months to get your mount back to full, you get to keep all your achievements and any motifs etc that you have unlocked remain on your character.

It makes far more sense to be able to change your profession (ie. I studied to be a Templar but now I want to study the way of the Dragonknight) than to be able to change your race (I was born an Argonian but now I want to chop off my tail, shed my scales and become a High Elf).

And race change is already allowed.

I'd be cool starting at level 1 if I get to keep the skill points from shards/cheevos previously obtained. Otherwise, level is level, although certainly skills would have to be leveled up in any event.

Androconium

kargen27 wrote: »

You are missing my point.

Hello,

No, actually, I'm not. I needed you to clarify that currently, there are no P2W items for sale. So, thanks for confirming that.

Those CS items that are being described as P2W really fall into the category of 'time-savers'. If you want to fast-track development in this game, you can:

• Subscribe to ESO+
• Purchase individual time-reduction items (e.g. mount development scrolls)
• Both of the above points

You will get a slight increase in research/development times; but nothing that will help you win. Putting a race-change token into this might be possible, but it would be knobbled in some way; or hideously expensive.

For those people saying that they can't win because the "best content" is hidden behind DLC; I don't agree. There's a difference between 'winning' and 'winning easily'.

Universe

The addition of the new instant 15 days research scrolls is very bad to this game.
I didn't notice any in-game scroll of same value that can be gained through writ vouchers or by other source.
The in-game 1 day research scrolls obtainable by writ vouchers have 20 hours cooldown while the crown research scrolls have no cooldown at all.(This item has no cooldown!).
This is a distinct advantage over non crown store items.
Once a character has researched enough traits it is possible to craft higher end gear and win more master writs on daily writ quests.

More master writs dropped from daily writs=more gold earned per day.
Master writs can be sold for a fine amount of gold or completed.
The vouchers earned through the completion of the writs can be used to buy items from the writ vouchers merchant/s(for example: Transmute station) and then the items can be sold to other players.

I'm worried that the next step will be 30 days crown research scrolls, instant level 50 tokens, instant cp 720/cp cap tokens and so on.
The P2convenience is getting ever closer to P2W.
If the convenience value is greater than the amount of time players are willing to spend to achieve same goals without the usage of the crown store, it is P2W.

P.S - Don't bother quoting me, I don't see a point to argue about this.
It is clear that many forum members are just eager to defend this game from being labeled P2W no matter how close it gets to this definition.

RABIDxWOLVERINE

I don't care for the scrolls but they don't bother me and it wouldn't bother me if you could get class change tokens. Id probably change my PVP warden to a DK like my main just because I have a better understanding of DK and not enough time to try to learn the ins and outs of the warden. Heck it took me long enough to figure out DK ins and outs lol.

Koensol

Sergykid wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

it is not p2w by releasing new gear and content. It is p2w when behind the dlc are items that are better than the non-dlc ones, and unachievable without them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

tanking set - Ebon & Torugs

just a side note for u, Ebon is overrated, 1k health isn't going to save a dps's life. You just lose some support abilities like alkosh (which is better and is behind dlc).

Wrong on both accounts. Even though you pay for the DLC, you can obtain the items through playing the game. Paying for the DLC doesn't give you ***.

And 1k health can mean the difference between a 1 shot and staying alive. A massive difference.

Merlin13KAGL

Lord wrote: »

The addition of the new instant 15 days research scrolls is very bad to this game.
I didn't notice any in-game scroll of same value that can be gained through writ vouchers or by other source.
The in-game 1 day research scrolls obtainable by writ vouchers have 20 hours cooldown while the crown research scrolls have no cooldown at all.(This item has no cooldown!).
This is a distinct advantage over non crown store items.
Once a character has researched enough traits it is possible to craft higher end gear and win more master writs on daily writ quests.

More master writs dropped from daily writs=more gold earned per day.
Master writs can be sold for a fine amount of gold or completed.
The vouchers earned through the completion of the writs can be used to buy items from the writ vouchers merchant/s(for example: Transmute station) and then the items can be sold to other players.

I'm worried that the next step will be 30 days crown research scrolls, instant level 50 tokens, instant cp 720/cp cap tokens and so on.
The P2convenience is getting ever closer to P2W.
If the convenience value is greater than the amount of time players are willing to spend to achieve same goals without the usage of the crown store, it is P2W.

P.S - Don't bother quoting me, I don't see a point to argue about this.
It is clear that many forum members are just eager to defend this game from being labeled P2W no matter how close it gets to this definition.

So, how much gold do you need to win? Beacause that's the end result of Master Writs, in one form or another, right? Do you use that to buy motifs, then?

Which style is the 'winning' style?

Again, if we were 3 months in and there were a distinct lack of Master Crafters, you might be onto something.

3 years in, not so much.

P.S. - Don't bother posting if you don't wish to be quoted. No one has to defend it, because it's flat out not P2W.

Drakkdjinn

Overtuned gear & classes accessible only via paid content is my line. ZoS has crossed it before.

Cpt_Teemo

There is no P2w unless you purposely buy gold from gold sellers or use 3rd party programs for botting

starkerealm

Koensol wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

it is not p2w by releasing new gear and content. It is p2w when behind the dlc are items that are better than the non-dlc ones, and unachievable without them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

tanking set - Ebon & Torugs

just a side note for u, Ebon is overrated, 1k health isn't going to save a dps's life. You just lose some support abilities like alkosh (which is better and is behind dlc).

Wrong on both accounts. Even though you pay for the DLC, you can obtain the items through playing the game. Paying for the DLC doesn't give you ***.

And 1k health can mean the difference between a 1 shot and staying alive. A massive difference.

Well, it gives you that jackal pet... so, clearly, that's some kind of victory.

And, yeah, as someone who tanks, I have seen way TOO many DPS who are floating just under the 1 shot threshold, because someone told them that it was enough, without ever explaining that the tank would be wearing Ebon.

Pheefs

Hi!
for Class Change Token the only reason I can see that they don't have it already, is that there's no background mechanic to convert us to a new class & they don't want to spend the time & money develop/implement a new feature that such a small percentage of us would ever use.

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

crowns research scrolls... one could use to become a master crafter in an afternoon

& No.
Only a non-crafter would say this!

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

crowns research scrolls... one could use to become a master crafter in a month

fixed it for you.

Rouven

In the sand.

That's where we draw the line.

Knowledge

Since you can't ever win in an MMO there is no line for me.

Ley

josiahva wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W

LINE #1

---

Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W

LINE #2

---

Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game

The ONLY thing listed that could be considered as P2W is the crown store item that boosts damage...but I am sorry, did I miss something? Reviewing the crown store revealed no such item...only tri-pots and the like. The rest of the stuff you can get in-game, and so therefore its not P2W, regardless of whether its faster. Again...if your toon can be just as powerful without paying a dime, there is no P2W.

I never said any of those items were in the crown store, but if they were, that's where I'd personally draw the line.

jaye63 wrote: »

Riding skill has no actual impact on game play other than time spent riding around. If you could use the horse in combat I would agree with you but since you cant, it doesnt count as P2W. And hypotheticals are whimsical carp used to propagate the myth of P2W in ESO. It's nonexistent here so any argument you make to say otherwise is invalid.

First of all, if you could pay cash to have a faster horse than everyone else, I think that would be pretty clear P2W. Being able to reach your PvP objectives faster than your enemy can easily be the difference between taking an objective or failing.

Secondly, I'm not accusing ESO of being P2W, on the contrary, I've fairly happy with the state of the crown shop (not thrilled about prices). OP asked where we draw the line for P2W, I gave examples of things that could be added that I would consider P2W or otherwise disapprove of.

Kiralyn2000

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Overtuned gear & classes accessible only via paid content is my line. ZoS has crossed it before.

Wouldn't every expansion ever released for an MMO fit into this category?


(Also, can you just see how many people would scream if the gear in a new expansion was worse than the stuff in the base game?)

Typeous

well, i think ESO is some kind of P2W too. i have ESO plus but my friends does not have it. they are new players who wants to do some dungeons, maybe soon trials. one of my friend wants to play healer but healers must have spell power cure. SPC can be lootable only from WGT which is DLC dungeon.

that makes ESO some kind of P2W stuff. maybe not P2W but if you have DLC, you are better than anyone who doesnt have it. Its not that big deal for DD's except War Machine/Master Architect sets +3-5k dps for some classes.

there was event which gives free ESO plus to non-members and some crates for members. we farmed spc for my friend, thats fine for now.

Maybe game should giveaway old DLC's like others game did. I mean when they release 10th DLC, they can give 1st one for free or for really cheap crown like 500-750.

sorry for potato english.

Sevalaricgirl

Jhalin wrote: »

You don't "win" by having traits researched. You can research all the useful traits for armor and weapons within a few days already, without any scrolls at all, and just about anyone can craft the few good crafted sets in the game. Everything acquired by doing master writs can be bought from other players.

A class change token would be rarely used, and hardly even saves time since you'd still have to level up the class lines again. I'd rather just level an entirely new toon and not pay a fee. Either way, it wouldn't be pay-to-win.

Not the case Nirnhoned medium belt took me 21 days.

DHale

Nothing is p2w in ESO... yet.

kypranb14_ESO

For me "Pay to Win" is something that can be purchased for real money, that cannot otherwise be obtained in game.

- EXP scrolls are fine, because we have Ambrosia.
- Merchant and Banker are fine, because they are a convenience item and don't give you a direct advantage over other players.
- Mundus stones are fine too.
- Research scrolls are fine too, because we can earn them in game.

However... Mount Training could technically be considered P2W, as it has a direct effect on how well you perform in Cyrodiil. Personally, I wouldn't classify it as P2W though. Just take the time to train your mount.

If they added costumes in the crowne store that gave +10% spell damage, or max magicka, or something along those lines. That would be P2W for sure. As far as I am concerned, ESO has not entered the P2W market at all yet.

starkerealm

DHale wrote: »

Nothing is p2w in ESO... yet.

Again, I'd say there's a legitimate argument on the Imperial. But, that's the only one. There was a lot of chatter about the Warden being P2W, and while it is a solid class, it's not really, "better," than the original base 4. The Imperial's bounced back and forth, but depending on perspective it's either the best Tanking race, or just behind Argonians for that honor.

kargen27

QuebraRegra wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

People seem to shout p2w at numerous things, but what do you consider a p2w feature?

I've been advocating for a token to change class for a while, we already have race change, and some people claim it would dumb the game down.

Now I've seen 5k crowns research scrolls for 15 days of research, that although costly, one could use to become a master crafter in an afternoon, whereas it would take months. Talk about dumbing down.

I'm all for zos making more profit, but I don't see people freaking out over these scrolls, which makes people that invisted in crafting look like they wasted their time and yet they absolutely go nuts on every single class token post.

I REALLY want a class change token!!!!!!! I've made some awesome looking characters (I swear my original characters look better than subsequent one's I've made.. and as there is no way to get the values of the sliders I'm stuck).

That said, how would a class change token be P2W!?!?!? The classes are the classes, changing a class gives no more advantage than making a character of that class. The only thing saved IMHO, is the XP and horse grind.

I need to hear reasoning why we shouldn't have a class change token... Don;'t cry about PVP, I could give a fig if everyone becomes a DK (I have no DKs, nor will I). In fact I think that's a good measure to help ZOS decide what to nerf (if one class seems terribly overpowered.).

The reason has already been provided. MMOs survive on repeated content. That is why we have RNG and why we don't have a change class token.

Sergykid

Koensol wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

it is not p2w by releasing new gear and content. It is p2w when behind the dlc are items that are better than the non-dlc ones, and unachievable without them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

tanking set - Ebon & Torugs

just a side note for u, Ebon is overrated, 1k health isn't going to save a dps's life. You just lose some support abilities like alkosh (which is better and is behind dlc).

Wrong on both accounts. Even though you pay for the DLC, you can obtain the items through playing the game. Paying for the DLC doesn't give you ***. [...]

.

Sergykid wrote: »

[...] If i pay for wood they won't make me my fire. But if i don't pay for wood, i won't have fire at all.

.

Koensol wrote: »

And 1k health can mean the difference between a 1 shot and staying alive. A massive difference.

for those 3% cases where a dps will die because it lacked 1k hp, not sure if it's worth losing some powerful set like Alkosh.

Cpt_Teemo

Knowledge wrote: »

Since you can't ever win in an MMO there is no line for me.

Tell that to BDO / AA

Personofsecrets

It's far too late to draw the line.

JiKama

People can pay for faster research times. That doesn't mean they'll do more DPS in PvE or PvP. So I don't see it as P2W, I see it as impatient. P2W in my opinion would be certain crown consumable items give more bonus Stats that our current Major/Minor buff system doesn't. Lets goof and say ZoS added a "Crown Potion of Battle" and makes you deal 10-20% bonus damage in PvP. That would be P2W

Koensol

Sergykid wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

it is not p2w by releasing new gear and content. It is p2w when behind the dlc are items that are better than the non-dlc ones, and unachievable without them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

tanking set - Ebon & Torugs

just a side note for u, Ebon is overrated, 1k health isn't going to save a dps's life. You just lose some support abilities like alkosh (which is better and is behind dlc).

Wrong on both accounts. Even though you pay for the DLC, you can obtain the items through playing the game. Paying for the DLC doesn't give you ***. [...]

.

Sergykid wrote: »

[...] If i pay for wood they won't make me my fire. But if i don't pay for wood, i won't have fire at all.

.

Koensol wrote: »

And 1k health can mean the difference between a 1 shot and staying alive. A massive difference.

for those 3% cases where a dps will die because it lacked 1k hp, not sure if it's worth losing some powerful set like Alkosh.

Your logic keeps being weird. In your opinion every DLC or expansion that ever released new and better gear would be P2W. What is your point exactly? Are you trying to prove any MMO ever was P2W?

And you are discrediting a terrific set like Ebon and come up with imaginary and nonsensical numbers. 3%? Please.. 1k health can and will make all the difference in the world. I know it from experience.

Juju_beans

For me p2w is having uber powerful weapons/gear/skills to buy in the store that are more powerful than anything obtainable in game.

That's when I leave.

Pay for convenience is hardly p2w. Having gear, weapons, skills above what anyone can obtain in game is p2w.

Acrolas

Pay to Win is an unfair advantage offered at a price that most people are not willing and able to pay for.

Yes, the research scrolls are costly, but they don't offer any feature you can't already ask for in chat or from your guild. They're not an unfair advantage. If anything, they're perhaps a wake-up call that you shouldn't have been procrastinating on craft research all these years because it does take a while.

We draw the line at things like 5,000 crown instakill poisons and 25,000 crown premium combat pets.

Cpt_Teemo

JiKama wrote: »

People can pay for faster research times. That doesn't mean they'll do more DPS in PvE or PvP. So I don't see it as P2W, I see it as impatient. P2W in my opinion would be certain crown consumable items give more bonus Stats that our current Major/Minor buff system doesn't. Lets goof and say ZoS added a "Crown Potion of Battle" and makes you deal 10-20% bonus damage in PvP. That would be P2W

I believe P2w by default just means to pay for services which would reduce the time to obtain something in game months - years to accomplish without paying for it.

Pay To Win
Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months).

STEVIL

pauli133 wrote: »

pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.

Exactly.