P2W - where do we draw the line?

rafaelcsmaia

People seem to shout p2w at numerous things, but what do you consider a p2w feature?

I've been advocating for a token to change class for a while, we already have race change, and some people claim it would dumb the game down.

Now I've seen 5k crowns research scrolls for 15 days of research, that although costly, one could use to become a master crafter in an afternoon, whereas it would take months. Talk about dumbing down.

I'm all for zos making more profit, but I don't see people freaking out over these scrolls, which makes people that invisted in crafting look like they wasted their time and yet they absolutely go nuts on every single class token post.

DieAlteHexe

I'm doing crafting the "hard way". I'm not freaking out over research scrolls. If someone wants to use them, fine by me. I'm not in that big a rip.

pauli133

pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.

essi2

You win nothing by becoming a Master Crafter, this is just a convenience option.

neverwalk

those scrolls don't make you stronger, so where is pay to win ? Research is very bad in this game because it does take months to become Master Traiter. So those scrolls are ok and not PW2 imo.

Olen_Mikko

Pay to win would be something like better gear/skills/weapons etc with crowns, that are otherwise unobtainable.

ESO is no way near p2w.

Most of MMO games are pay to advance. Nothing wrong with that

rafaelcsmaia

Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?

AlnilamE

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?

Class change would be stupid, though. Just make one character of each class and then if one becomes FOTM you can play that one. Rather than pay for a class change every 3 months when they nerf a class.

Sergykid

sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.

Villious

pauli133 wrote: »

pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.

Perfect response. Class change would be the same. /Thread

rafaelcsmaia

AlnilamE wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?

Class change would be stupid, though. Just make one character of each class and then if one becomes FOTM you can play that one. Rather than pay for a class change every 3 months when they nerf a class.

Already have, my main has 25k achievement points, I want him in another class, what's so stupid about it?

Jhalin

You don't "win" by having traits researched. You can research all the useful traits for armor and weapons within a few days already, without any scrolls at all, and just about anyone can craft the few good crafted sets in the game. Everything acquired by doing master writs can be bought from other players.

A class change token would be rarely used, and hardly even saves time since you'd still have to level up the class lines again. I'd rather just level an entirely new toon and not pay a fee. Either way, it wouldn't be pay-to-win.

jaye63

NOTHING in this game is P2W. NOTHING. You pay for convenience, fashion, sparklies... You dont pay to get anything gameplay related. PERIOD.

Gorgoneus

F2P (with basic game purchase) - yes, p2w - no.

josiahva

There is nothing pay to win in this game, your toon can be just as effective if you never spend a dime...therefore, there is no pay to win

Ley

Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W

LINE #1

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Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W

LINE #2

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Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game

badmojo

Class change token? Why so against leveling up another character? Everyone gets enough slots to have every class....heck I have 3 characters in each class.

Thats just my opinion. I bet that ZOS isnt doing it for some technical reason.

rafaelcsmaia

badmojo wrote: »

Class change token? Why so against leveling up another character? Everyone gets enough slots to have every class....heck I have 3 characters in each class.

Thats just my opinion. I bet that ZOS isnt doing it for some technical reason.

Not really against man, i also have every possible spec, however having played all specs id like to change my main on which i have most achievements done to something i like better, which i wouldn't know before i started playing, thats why

essi2

Sergykid wrote: »

sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.

That's how RPGs work, you make newer things more powerful. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

Doesn't make it even remotely P2W.

zaria

neverwalk wrote: »

those scrolls don't make you stronger, so where is pay to win ? Research is very bad in this game because it does take months to become Master Traiter. So those scrolls are ok and not PW2 imo.

This, paying some to craft an set for you is far cheaper than the materials if you want to gold weapons or want light armor.
Now if crafted set was bound like dungeon set it would be P2W.

Now the most P2W feature is probably horse training as a slow horse without stamina is an serious drawback in PvP.
On the other hand an new player has an serious handicap in Kyne anyway over alts, mostly experience but also less access to good food and crafted gear unless in an friendly guild.

Zander98

This game has been P2Wing since you could buy the Dweamer spider mount.
Seriously! How can I compete with that?!?

knaveofengland

its more pay to get there faster thats not pay to win far from it

rafaelcsmaia

Ok we all agreed there is no pay to win, now we got where I wanted. Why would a class token be any advantage at all, since it only saves you the time to level another toon?

ArchMikem

If my giving cash to ZOS grants me something that allows me to easily wreck people in Cyrodiil, then that's Pay 2 Win.

If I pay ZOS cash to receive large amounts of Gold, that's not Pay 2 Win, that's Pay 4 Convenience.

If I pay ZOS cash in order to get a full set of gold Trial gear Jewelry without ever stepping into a Trial, that's Pay 2 Win.

Turelus

Items which can only be purchased (not as part of game content) from a store which are vastly superior to anything you can get within the games normal play.

World of Tank gold ammo for example.

Tan9oSuccka

No. They do a good job of keeping far away from P2W.

Alaztor91

ZOS probably thinks that selling class change tokens would end up in people less inclined to buy other stuff like additional character slots or stuff like riding lessons, research scrolls,etc(basically crown store stuff that's tied to the character that used them and not the account).

They would rather have you make another character and hope you purchase some stuff with crowns to accelerate the process of trying to replicate the things that your main had, however that doesn't work for achievements which is probably the number 1 reason people ask for class change.

Ley

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Ok we all agreed there is no pay to win, now we got where I wanted. Why would a class token be any advantage at all, since it only saves you the time to level another toon?

I see it as the equivalent of having the ability, once you reach lvl 50 on one character to be able to purchase lvl 50 characters. What makes it worse is that you'd want all non class specific skills progression to transfer as well as achievements/lorebooks/skyshards/riding skill/ect...

IMO, this does change would be dumbing down the game.

P2W ≠ Dumbing down the game

neverwalk

items sold in crown are weaker than you can make in-game

jaye63

Ley wrote: »

Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W

LINE #1

---

Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W

LINE #2

---

Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game

Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
Not when you can craft that potion and Specify what item is BIS that you can buy from the store... I've yet to see one. And how does riding skill effect gameplay? PvP escape? that's iffy.

ADarklore

I don't think a 'class change' is the problem... it's the fact that ZOS would have to figure out and implement how to change a class and deal with class skill leveling. They aren't going to automatically award you with a fully maxed class skill lines, but many would complain about having to re-level class skills again... so how would ZOS actually implement an extremely complex question when they struggle just to implement basic class 'adjustments'? A class change is not as simple as a racial change or name change, there is a vastly more complex structure that would have to be created in order to do this- and I think ZOS has decided their resources would be best spent elsewhere.

Further, ZOS would also lose money if people stopped creating new characters and were able to just simply change classes. After all, look at the number of Crown Store items that are 'character specific'- including the new Outfit system- ZOS would be losing money if nobody needed to create and level a new character anymore.