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P2W - where do we draw the line?
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DMuehlhausen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.
Yeah but if you buy the DLC you still aren't guaranteed to get those items so it still isn't P2W. P2W is where you give money, and all you get is the item that makes you gud without any of the work.
Do you consider all expansions for any game to be P2W then, because every expansion specially for MMOs always just by default have new/better items.1 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
LINE #1
Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W
LINE #2
Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game
Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
Now when you can craft that potion and Specify what item is BIS that you can buy from the store... I've yet to see one. And how does riding skill effect gameplay? PvP escape? that's iffy.
Being able to use real money to attain benefits that exceed what is attainable in game is a pretty clear cut P2W.
If you could lvl all your riding skills to 60 in game but could raise them to 100 by spending crowns, that would be P2W.
I wasn't referring to any item currently in the store. Hypothetically, if they had for instance a potion that granted you 20% increased damaged that also stacked with your existing potions, that would be pretty clear P2W.
I've played games that were indisputably P2W, the more money you spent, the more powerful you became. Most of the benefits you could pay for were not in any way attainable in game. I didn't care for them.Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade1 -
Mureel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only thing I can think of that could be considered directly p2w is the Mimic stones. Get mimic stones, craft hlaalu pieces, decon, big in game gold. Due to the turtle trinket box design + bonemold resin rarity they go for 3600-5k per style mat.
It is/was the same with frostcaster and harlequin style mats since the motif is a crown motif.
Can pay 1500 crowns for roughly give or take 100k in game gold in the case of bonemold resin.
On the other hand though - especially in pve because I don't know pvp sets well, to 'win' you still need to farm bound things like IA, Mender, Ebon, etc - but with mimic stones you could essentially buy carries for those...
I don't know if I'd go so far even here to say Pay To Win, but it's definitely a currently legit way to 'buy' gold using real cash.Edited by Mureel on February 15, 2018 8:54PM1 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hello,rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Ok we all agreed there is no pay to win, now we got where I wanted. Why would a class token be any advantage at all, since it only saves you the time to level another toon?
If you are saying that the only advantage of a 'Class Change' Crown Store Token would be to save you time; then I agree.
If you are wondering why people get upset by issues around Crafting Research times, then I think that issue goes back to a 'Quality of Life' change made probably twelve months ago now. It is so long ago now that I can't remember the exact nature of the change, but it was either:- you could research four items at once and this was reduced to three; or
- the rate at which research progressed was changed in order to increase research times.
I hope that this was information that you needed.0 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭Addendum:
in order to use the tag 'P2W', you would first need a clear definition of what WIN actually was.
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Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭NOTHING in this game is P2W. NOTHING. You pay for convenience, fashion, sparklies... You dont pay to get anything gameplay related. PERIOD.F2P (with basic game purchase) - yes, p2w - no.There is nothing pay to win in this game, your toon can be just as effective if you never spend a dime...therefore, there is no pay to win
...sigh...sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.
u may not get the items if u spend any money butDMuehlhausen wrote: »Yeah but if you buy the DLC you still aren't guaranteed to get those items so it still isn't P2W. P2W is where you give money, and all you get is the item that makes you gud without any of the work.
but you can't even go to get the weapons if u don't spend the money. If i pay for wood they won't make me my fire. But if i don't pay for wood, i won't have fire at all.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube2 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭In my mind, Pay To Win happens when an outlay of cash gets you something measurable better than anything available for purchase. Paying to research things does not meet that definition. Once all research is done, people who paid cash have absolutely no advantage over people who did it the slow, free way.
Now if you could buy the ability to have multiple traits on a single item, and the same ability did not exist in game, that would be p2w.
There's some grey area as well, I could buy an argument that selling vMA weapons, or any bis items, as p2w despite being available in game. It doesn't strictly meet the definition, but it a bit fuzzy.
Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Research scrolls, experience scrolls and the like fall basically in the same category as training lessons for your mount - it is a time saver, but doesn't give you any other advantage in the end than to have saved some time. No one is complaining about training lessons for mounts, even they can potentially save nearly half a year of training time - a new player could have a fully trained mount in an instant - and i guess some of you might do that for their alts, because you don't want to ride in slowmo.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »P2W - where do we draw the line?
Since i haven't been "winning" anything in quite a while, maybe i need to stop paying ZOS.
Clearly, p2w isn't working for me ...
Edited by SirAndy on February 15, 2018 9:09PM2 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's some grey area as well, I could buy an argument that selling vMA weapons, or any bis items, as p2w despite being available in game. It doesn't strictly meet the definition, but it a bit fuzzy.
I agree that this is a bit grey. However, being able to skip some of the hardest content in the game and purchase the rewards directly from the crown store would feel wrong to me. Even if it wasn't BiS gear, I don't thing you should be able to purchase gear for crowns. For me this falls in the realm of dumbing down the game.
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?
Class change would be stupid, though. Just make one character of each class and then if one becomes FOTM you can play that one. Rather than pay for a class change every 3 months when they nerf a class.
Already have, my main has 25k achievement points, I want him in another class, what's so stupid about it?
The solution to that is for achievement points to be account wide, not a class change token0 -
Lieblingsjunge✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nobody is allowed to say "omg eso is p2w" if you have never played a Perfect World Entertainment-game.
ESO is super chill when it comes to that.
There's a major difference between pay2win and pay2convenience. If you could buy some legendary legendary upgrade that would increase your stats by 10k from crown store, then it's p2w.
But I don't see how saving time is in the "win" category.Ignorance is the greatest weapon of tyranny.
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My title: The Maneater, Destroyer of Maneuvers, Bane of Potatoes, she who devours them, The Black Hole, the humorless, first of her name.0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
LINE #1
Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W
LINE #2
Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game
The ONLY thing listed that could be considered as P2W is the crown store item that boosts damage...but I am sorry, did I miss something? Reviewing the crown store revealed no such item...only tri-pots and the like. The rest of the stuff you can get in-game, and so therefore its not P2W, regardless of whether its faster. Again...if your toon can be just as powerful without paying a dime, there is no P2W.0 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
LINE #1
Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W
LINE #2
Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game
The ONLY thing listed that could be considered as P2W is the crown store item that boosts damage...but I am sorry, did I miss something? Reviewing the crown store revealed no such item...only tri-pots and the like. The rest of the stuff you can get in-game, and so therefore its not P2W, regardless of whether its faster. Again...if your toon can be just as powerful without paying a dime, there is no P2W.
Yeah, sure why even play the game when you can just skip everything and buy a fully golded end game viable set with master/maelstrom weapons and trial jewlery, all without any extra work.
That's pay to win. Or at the very least freemium. Where you have a better chance of winning with a small sum of money vs someone who has to grind hours to get to the same point. Nothing in the game at the moment offers really any end game advantage. And never should. It should only be to lower the tedium of simpler, less important activities.Edited by ak_pvp on February 15, 2018 9:38PMMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.1 -
jaye63✭✭✭✭Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
LINE #1
Scroll that reduces time to research a crafting trait ≠ P2W
Pay to reduce time sink from X months ≠ P2W
Pay for storage space ≠ P2W
LINE #2
Paying for max level character = Dumbing down of the game
Paying to change your max level character to a completely different class and race = Dumbing down of the game
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game
Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W
Crown store mounts with above max riding skill stats = P2W
Now when you can craft that potion and Specify what item is BIS that you can buy from the store... I've yet to see one. And how does riding skill effect gameplay? PvP escape? that's iffy.
Being able to use real money to attain benefits that exceed what is attainable in game is a pretty clear cut P2W.
If you could lvl all your riding skills to 60 in game but could raise them to 100 by spending crowns, that would be P2W.
I wasn't referring to any item currently in the store. Hypothetically, if they had for instance a potion that granted you 20% increased damaged that also stacked with your existing potions, that would be pretty clear P2W.
I've played games that were indisputably P2W, the more money you spent, the more powerful you became. Most of the benefits you could pay for were not in any way attainable in game. I didn't care for them.
Riding skill has no actual impact on game play other than time spent riding around. If you could use the horse in combat I would agree with you but since you cant, it doesnt count as P2W. And hypotheticals are whimsical carp used to propagate the myth of P2W in ESO. It's nonexistent here so any argument you make to say otherwise is invalid.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.
Tangible advantage is function of time; by playing game, you convert time into assets that make you stronger relative to players without that assets. If you can convert money into time, you can convert money into assets. Assets equal power, therefore you can convert money into power, i.e. P2W.
Also, if you can pay to catch up with someone, you can oviously pay to leave behind players like yourself, who however do not pay, i.e. again P2W.those scrolls don't make you stronger, so where is pay to win ? Research is very bad in this game because it does take months to become Master Traiter. So those scrolls are ok and not PW2 imo.
Gear does, and through research, you have easier access to larger pool of gear, arguably more powerful options.Olen_Mikko wrote: »Pay to win would be something like better gear/skills/weapons etc with crowns, that are otherwise unobtainable.
ESO is no way near p2w.
It is unobtainable with equal effort.rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?
No, it would not. As I pointed out, time matters, switching class the other way (reroll) has rather massive opportunity cost.2 -
f047ys3v3n✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO has been really good about not going pay to win. They should get a pat on the back for that. The closest they have ever come was with XP scrolls and the 10% exp buff for subscribing back before CP cap. That was a little debatable but at this point caps have made it moot as all serious players are at cap..
ESO deserves a big attaboy for resisting the temptation to go PTW. They have really been very good.I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.2 -
Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭p2w is obtaining items not available in game that give you more power.
Gear and weapons come to mind, not crafting scrolls.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rafaelcsmaia wrote: »Ok we all agreed there is no pay to win, now we got where I wanted. Why would a class token be any advantage at all, since it only saves you the time to level another toon?
It wouldn't be. The reason we don't have class change is because an MMO survives on content being repeated. That is why we have RNG and why we have to level up a new character if we want to try a new class. It isn't about players paying to win it is about keeping the game viable. This is also the reason achievements are character bound and not account bound.
They can only provide so much new content so having players repeat content is the best way for them to keep us playing.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭when i can buy a weapon from the crown store that will one hit anything.....
then it is pay to win.0 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Hello,<snip>They can only provide so much new content so having players repeat content is the best way for them to keep us playing.
There it is: repeatable content.
If we concede that a fundamental element that defines MMO is "repeatable content", then we should also consider conceding that MMO is not a game with an identifiable point that can be described as a 'finish line'. Rather, MMO should be defined as a toy, that can be played with over and over again. As a result, the concept of of Pay-to-Win simply does not exist.
Whatever is bought after, are just accessories to enhance play-value of the original toy.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Androconium wrote: »
Hello,<snip>They can only provide so much new content so having players repeat content is the best way for them to keep us playing.
There it is: repeatable content.
If we concede that a fundamental element that defines MMO is "repeatable content", then we should also consider conceding that MMO is not a game with an identifiable point that can be described as a 'finish line'. Rather, MMO should be defined as a toy, that can be played with over and over again. As a result, the concept of of Pay-to-Win simply does not exist.
Whatever is bought after, are just accessories to enhance play-value of the original toy.
we must throw in the mix PvP and leader boards as well. Pay to win comes into play when buying something out of game can have an affect on those aspects of the game. None of that matters though when it comes to whether or not we will get a class change token. A class change token takes away from the players need to repeat content meaning less play time. That isn't good for the game and that is why we don't have class change. Nothing to do with pay to win and everything to do with repeating content.
That is why the OP erred with arguing the pay to win angle with class change. It simply isn't relevant to why class change tokens are not in the game.Edited by kargen27 on February 15, 2018 11:38PMand then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.
True. Every guide and everyone tells me that Velidreth is the best monster set for Stamina DPS (what I main) but it's friggin locked behind friggin DLC...With strength and intelligence comes hard work.
Which is why not a lot of people are strong nor intelligent.1 -
Androconium✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hello,we must throw in the mix PvP and leader boards as well. Pay to win comes into play when buying something out of game can have an affect on those aspects of the game.
I can't think of anything that i can buy from the Crown Store that would affect my ability in either PvP or leaderboard scores.
So I'd like to see see what you're thinking is here.
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Juju_beans✭✭✭✭✭
✭SkyIsTheLimit1206 wrote: »
Because ESO is buy to play for non subscribers.
Pay a sub and you get access to new dlc content.
Don't pay a sub and you have to buy new dlc content if you wish to play it.
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Vanthras79✭✭✭✭✭In a market economy I suppose it is up to the consumer to voice their opinion. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, save ya' monies!Edited by Vanthras79 on February 15, 2018 11:56PMNorion Germain - Telvanni Wizard, Covenant Battle Mage, Mage's Guild Magister, Resident of Daggerfall Overlook, Lord of Tel Galen, Psijic Monk, Antiquarian, Breton Scholar, and Traveler.0 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭What in tarnation are you suggesting here?
I think eso players need a few examples of games that are ACTUALLY pay to win.
You win LITERALLY nothing by knowing how to craft traits... NOTHING.2 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.
vMA bow is very comparable to Master bow.
vMA staff isn't a huge deal
You can easily run these sets at end game:
stamina dps - hundings rage & VO
magicka dps - law of julianos & Infal
tanking set - Ebon & Torugs
only healing has it rough - Spell Power Cure <-- the only BiS gear locked behind a DLC.
The real issue is exactly what content are you doing at end game if you don't have DLC?0
