P2W - where do we draw the line?

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

let me put this simple, CRAFTING IS DEAD.
this was the last nail in the coffin, sure I like the outfit system and I think ESO break the barrier other games set in terms of char customization which is awesome but...me as a hard working crafter who spend over 1 year to learn all traits the normal way since back then were no damn scrolls or stuff like that now I get peed over by some noobie since he can do the same fast also so far it was a challenge to get all crafting styles and charge for it depending on traits and rarity...now u only need to charge for traits and that's not even a thing since everyone can just use scrolls thus making it super cheap and not worthy anymore...

Juju_beans

Those scrolls are more like pay-to-skip not pay-to-win.

Many other games have stuff like that to shorten your "journey".
Wow has level boosts if you don't want to be bothered to level yourself from 1-100..pay $60 and you have an instant almost end game character with only 10 levels to go.

kargen27

Androconium wrote: »

Hello,

kargen27 wrote: »

we must throw in the mix PvP and leader boards as well. Pay to win comes into play when buying something out of game can have an affect on those aspects of the game.

I can't think of anything that i can buy from the Crown Store that would affect my ability in either PvP or leaderboard scores.
So I'd like to see see what you're thinking is here.

You are missing my point. I am not saying there is anything in the crown store that is pay to win. I am saying not having a class change token in the crown store has nothing to do with pay to win. Changing class wouldn't be pay to win. It would mean players not repeating content as often. Repeated content is the issue with class change not pay to win.

The OP was saying we should have class change because it wouldn't be pay to win.

I am saying pay to win has nothing to do with why class change is not in the game.

The quote above was my response to your saying the game should be treated like a toy where there could be no pay to win. It is PvP and leader boards where we compete against each other that makes it a game and not a toy. If an all powerful sword were introduced to the crown store as an exclusive it wouldn't matter if there were not leader boards, PvP or rewards for speed and no death runs. As those exist in the game any such weapon would be pay to win.

Again I do not think anything in the crown store is pay to win and I don't think a class change would be pay to win. That doesn't matter though because changing classes would hurt the game in other ways.

Mz_Jo

I was thinking about P2W myself earlier.

Aside from the "nicer things/fluff" most convenience items can be purchased by some sort of in game currency which = NOT P2W.

As far as owning DLC or Chapter content, sorry that's NOT P2W either. I'm paying for a product that is available for all to purchase. By doing this I'm supporting growth in the game and progress.

Also there are many guilds/people that have made crafting stations available for their members, via housing, who otherwise couldn't get to them.

Kiralyn2000

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

let me put this simple, CRAFTING IS DEAD.
this was the last nail in the coffin, sure I like the outfit system and I think ESO break the barrier other games set in terms of char customization which is awesome but...me as a hard working crafter who spend over 1 year to learn all traits the normal way since back then were no damn scrolls or stuff like that now I get peed over by some noobie since he can do the same fast also so far it was a challenge to get all crafting styles and charge for it depending on traits and rarity...now u only need to charge for traits and that's not even a thing since everyone can just use scrolls thus making it super cheap and not worthy anymore...

You act like crafting is some guaranteed revenue stream that was your divine right, due to being a crafter. Meh.

Crafting in MMOs always decreases in profitability over time, as 1) more people level their crafting skills, and 2) less people need your crafted stuff. (remembering back to the average WoW expansion - the first couple weeks, the 4 crafters who got the rare raid recipes & materials made massive piles of gold on each item crafted. Fast forward six months, none of it's worth the materials required to make it.)

And ESO has it even worse, since - once you have 9 traits - there's no "new recipes" to learn. Sure there's new crafted sets each DLC, but every 9-trait crafter in existence can make them right away. There's no "new expansion, I'm the only guy who can craft ______, PROFIT!"

So, congrats on having a 9-trait crafter. It was never meant to be some infinite source of gold.

(I'm on the 8-9 trait border with my crafter, done the slow way. Time isn't the issue, buying nirnhoned research fodder for 15k each is what's stopping me. Research scrolls? Don't really care. But, then, I've never crafted, in any MMO I've played, for profit. I craft for personal use, so that I never have to buy your stuff.)

NewBlacksmurf

I don’t consider it P2W however I do think you’re touching the ongoing debate thatZOS continues to sale convenience items for rediculous amounts of crowns that do shorten gameplay that was a long path.

What else you should take note of is the future....they systematically add items like this and later drop a bomb so it would seem a major change to crafting is coming that will make people feel they have to buy these.

Again, not P2W but another thing altogether that’s bad.

Juju_beans

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I don’t consider it P2W however I do think you’re touching the ongoing debate thatZOS continues to sale convenience items for rediculous amounts of crowns that do shorten gameplay that was a long path.

What else you should take note of is the future....they systematically add items like this and later drop a bomb so it would seem a major change to crafting is coming that will make people feel they have to buy these.

Again, not P2W but another thing altogether that’s bad.

The new term is "pay to skip". Other MMO's are doing it as well with things like character boosts.

It's along the lines of instant gratification..paying to skip all that tedious work that's part and parcel of an MMO.

Ermiq

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Pay to win would be something like better gear/skills/weapons etc with crowns, that are otherwise unobtainable.

Here. Here I would draw that line. And this quote is actually what I would call "already crossed the line". Because this "it's still obtainable in-game" mindset drives me crazy. What does this quote means? It means that it's ok if devs sell weapons, armours, upgrades for the gear (tanin and such) in CS, because, you know, "u still can get them in-game, it's just a convenience option, dude". I know, there are people in the game who would tell you such BS, if ZOS would decide to sell a gear for crowns. I've seen such people in other MMOs.
By the way, transmutation crystals is what they would sell in CS, and I would call that pay2win as well.

NewBlacksmurf

Juju_beans wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I don’t consider it P2W however I do think you’re touching the ongoing debate thatZOS continues to sale convenience items for rediculous amounts of crowns that do shorten gameplay that was a long path.

What else you should take note of is the future....they systematically add items like this and later drop a bomb so it would seem a major change to crafting is coming that will make people feel they have to buy these.

Again, not P2W but another thing altogether that’s bad.

The new term is "pay to skip". Other MMO's are doing it as well with things like character boosts.

It's along the lines of instant gratification..paying to skip all that tedious work that's part and parcel of an MMO.

@Juju_beans
Coined

Ermiq

Mz_Jo wrote: »

I was thinking about P2W myself earlier.

Aside from the "nicer things/fluff" most convenience items can be purchased by some sort of in game currency which = NOT P2W.

As far as owning DLC or Chapter content, sorry that's NOT P2W either. I'm paying for a product that is available for all to purchase. By doing this I'm supporting growth in the game and progress.

Also there are many guilds/people that have made crafting stations available for their members, via housing, who otherwise couldn't get to them.

*facepalm*

vMA weapons in Crown Store or Exclusive Legendary Major Berserk Potion (+20% damage done) is NOT P2W either. I'm paying for a product that is available for all to purchase. By doing this I'm supporting growth in the game and progress.
*facepalm* again.

HighKinlady

Remember the bucket and broom that was in the crown store .. that’s pay to win .

Bbsample197

actually it depends on how does one defines the meaning of "Winning" on a game, you might say that a craft bag isnt pay to win but for people who doesnt want to pay for eso+ and also a hoarder will say its p2w otherwise beacuase they couldnt get the luxury of the glorious craft bag, i know its dumb but theres people like that.

Thunderknuckles

pauli133 wrote: »

pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.

Totally agreed. "Pay to Win" is actually a PvP term meaning you can buy with real money the armor/skills that give a person a decidedly distinct advantage over other players in PvP. In games that use this approach you can also earn the gear, but the grind to acquire them is so horrifically long and tedious (I mean literal months or even years) that it really tempts people to just buy the stuff, which is what those scumbag companies want them to do in the first place. World of Tanks/Planes comes to mind right off.

Crown scrolls that shorten research times is certainly not P2W.

Ragnarok0130

It's simple, real P2W is something that you can only purchase with real money that gives a marked advantage over anything that you can obtain in the game via non-monetary (ie gameplay) means. Anything else is not pay to win.

There are gray areas like in the Star Wars Battlefront 2 loot box fiasco because those gave you star cards that give you stat boosts and crafting materials to upgrade star cards and weapons which gave you a marked advantage over the normally excruciatingly slow process to gather those materials. That is very close to P2W and shady as all heck, but not true P2W.

Ch4mpTW

As much as I like to rag on ZOS for their shortcomings, I can truly say that I have yet to see any P2W in ESO as of yet. People claimed it was Wardens, but no. That’s far from the truth. As is the experience point boosts in the Crown Store. Again, not a means of P2W.

Koensol

Sergykid wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

NOTHING in this game is P2W. NOTHING. You pay for convenience, fashion, sparklies... You dont pay to get anything gameplay related. PERIOD.

Gorgoneus wrote: »

F2P (with basic game purchase) - yes, p2w - no.

josiahva wrote: »

There is nothing pay to win in this game, your toon can be just as effective if you never spend a dime...therefore, there is no pay to win

...sigh...

Sergykid wrote: »

sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.

u may not get the items if u spend any money but

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Yeah but if you buy the DLC you still aren't guaranteed to get those items so it still isn't P2W. P2W is where you give money, and all you get is the item that makes you gud without any of the work.

but you can't even go to get the weapons if u don't spend the money. If i pay for wood they won't make me my fire. But if i don't pay for wood, i won't have fire at all.

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

Ackwalan

pauli133 wrote: »

pay to catch up and pay to win are very different things. the research scrolls are the former - you trade money for time, rather than for any sort of tangible advantage.

Pay to catch up is pay to win. What's the difference between paying to speed up research and paying to level up or paying for skyshards, after all it is still just a way to catch up.

QuebraRegra

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

People seem to shout p2w at numerous things, but what do you consider a p2w feature?

I've been advocating for a token to change class for a while, we already have race change, and some people claim it would dumb the game down.

Now I've seen 5k crowns research scrolls for 15 days of research, that although costly, one could use to become a master crafter in an afternoon, whereas it would take months. Talk about dumbing down.

I'm all for zos making more profit, but I don't see people freaking out over these scrolls, which makes people that invisted in crafting look like they wasted their time and yet they absolutely go nuts on every single class token post.

I REALLY want a class change token!!!!!!! I've made some awesome looking characters (I swear my original characters look better than subsequent one's I've made.. and as there is no way to get the values of the sliders I'm stuck).

That said, how would a class change token be P2W!?!?!? The classes are the classes, changing a class gives no more advantage than making a character of that class. The only thing saved IMHO, is the XP and horse grind.

I need to hear reasoning why we shouldn't have a class change token... Don;'t cry about PVP, I could give a fig if everyone becomes a DK (I have no DKs, nor will I). In fact I think that's a good measure to help ZOS decide what to nerf (if one class seems terribly overpowered.).

QuebraRegra

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Class change wouldn't be any advantage aside from time save as well, so i guess it would be allright then?

Class change would be stupid, though. Just make one character of each class and then if one becomes FOTM you can play that one. Rather than pay for a class change every 3 months when they nerf a class.

Already have, my main has 25k achievement points, I want him in another class, what's so stupid about it?

makes perfect sense to me, that and the damn horse crap.

Heka Cain

ZOS you are insidious and avaricious scumbags! So looking forward to your comeuppance!

Niobium

badmojo wrote: »

Class change token? Why so against leveling up another character? Everyone gets enough slots to have every class....heck I have 3 characters in each class.

Thats just my opinion. I bet that ZOS isnt doing it for some technical reason.

Class change would be fine if starting from level 1 again.

Nothing against leveling up a new character.. but with a class change token you don't have to spend 6 months to get your mount back to full, you get to keep all your achievements and any motifs etc that you have unlocked remain on your character.

It makes far more sense to be able to change your profession (ie. I studied to be a Templar but now I want to study the way of the Dragonknight) than to be able to change your race (I was born an Argonian but now I want to chop off my tail, shed my scales and become a High Elf).

And race change is already allowed.

Mayrael

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

People seem to shout p2w at numerous things, but what do you consider a p2w feature?

I've been advocating for a token to change class for a while, we already have race change, and some people claim it would dumb the game down.

Now I've seen 5k crowns research scrolls for 15 days of research, that although costly, one could use to become a master crafter in an afternoon, whereas it would take months. Talk about dumbing down.

I'm all for zos making more profit, but I don't see people freaking out over these scrolls, which makes people that invisted in crafting look like they wasted their time and yet they absolutely go nuts on every single class token post.

Its the reason why I have unsubed. People still don't get it that there is no line for ZOS. They implement more and more things that are not just cosmetic as it was announced when b2p model was introduced. With each update they add some more crown stuff and since we agree for that, they are pushing the limit a bit further. Mark my words as there will be a day when you wont be able to stay competetive without using crowns, because there will always be people ready to take any advantage they can. If ZOS would introduce now items that allow to upgrade items with crowns we all would be enraged. But they will introduce stuff like outfits slots and tokens, then research scrolls, then transmutation tokens so hey since we already have all of this why not have upgrades in store? Its the way all store based MMOS are going and when this starts they slowly die, as best players are leaving because they are not willing to pay to stay on top. Yes its dark prophecy but thats not just my delusions, Ive seen it many times before... sadly.

Illurian

Yeah honestly the ESO forum community is extremely alarmist, but yet extremely hypocritical.

Just take a look at any thread that even hinted at having a level up scroll. "OMG P2W P2W P2W"

Yet, no one blinks an eye at exp boost scrolls, mount training books, or research reduction scrolls. They all reduce time required and yet somehow level up scrolls are the anti-christ.

P2W, at least to me, is when an item is sold for real currency that is either impossible to obtain, or requires an amount of grinding that equates to a full time job, that also gives a combative advantage. For example, I would consider selling vMA/Master weapons on the crown store P2W.

Anything else that doesn't give a combative advantage simply does not fall under that definition.

Knootewoot

There is nu such thing as a "Master Crafter".

It's not hard, it just takes time to obtain all traits for every piece of gear. I had my main "master" in every craft pretty quick by just playing the game and learning traits and deconstructing all loot i found. Only the nirnhorned pieces i bough when they were pretty cheap.

Yeah it might take a while but it's the easiest part of the game.

I really don't care if other players have a shortcut or have it handed to them. It's not like crafted gear it the best anyway. I do wear half crafted myself but that is because i hate grinding mobs for gear.

So far i see no P2W features in the game. It's either cosmetic or convenience. You also don't win anything by buying horse training or xp potions.

starkerealm

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Pay to win would be something like better gear/skills/weapons etc with crowns, that are otherwise unobtainable.

ESO is no way near p2w.

Most of MMO games are pay to advance. Nothing wrong with that

Honestly, the one exception is probably the Imperials. At launch they were very strong as a racial pick, and they're still easy to recommend for StamDPS and Tanks. They make for some excellent tanks. Though it's an open question if they're better than Argonian tanks or not.

With that, you can kinda argue a P2W element. They're not the clear, "master race," they've been in previous eras of ESO, though, so there has been some effort made to normalize them down.

However, step past that, and there really isn't anything you can point to as P2W in ESO. Not credibly.

wolfxspice

I am irritated by the research scrolls, it took me nearly a year to become a 9 trait crafter, knowing that someone can throw a bunch of money at the game and get what took me a very, very long time to get, it doesn't sit right with me. stuff like this is why the game keeps losing its appeal, at least to me.

Golevan

Ley wrote: »

Crown store item that grants 20% increased damage for 2 hours = P2W
Crown store BiS gear for sale = P2W (I personally wouldn't want ANY gear sold in crown store)
Pay for sky shards = Dumbing down of the game

in what ass you found it all????

rafaelcsmaia

Wow, so many people getting triggered by the post title, calm down guys, no need to call names or whatever just because i assumed something is p2w, its supposed to be a healthy discussion, not an argument over nuclear warfare

Prof_Bawbag

Sergykid wrote: »

sets and weapons from DLC content are much better than non-paid ones. Look at vMA weapons, alkosh or war machine.

Almost every game introduces better weapons etc in dlc. DLC's are supposed to advance games. Dlc is one thing, putting *** straight into the CS with zero effort needed is something else entirely.

Sergykid

Koensol wrote: »

So in your opinion, every game that has dlc which releases new gear is P2W? Such grand logic.

it is not p2w by releasing new gear and content. It is p2w when behind the dlc are items that are better than the non-dlc ones, and unachievable without them.

Tannus15 wrote: »

tanking set - Ebon & Torugs

just a side note for u, Ebon is overrated, 1k health isn't going to save a dps's life. You just lose some support abilities like alkosh (which is better and is behind dlc).