ice mage

Anhedonie

A man can only dream.

Vaoh

Anhedonie wrote: »

A man can only dream.

^

jakeedmundson

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Ranged spamable root that can replace force pulse if you get the master staff. Since most builds don't slot snare/root immunity, this is arguably BiS for builds looking to cause Stam drain on enemies.

Aoe snare that can immobilze chilled enemies. Charged trait stafg+ direct Attack + frost enchant can increase the chance to cause chilled status effect with an uptime of more than 70% (searched this info for charged staff threads).

Armor buffs plus blocking replaces sNB for some setups/content. Allows certain builds the ability to slot dual weld yet still retain the benefits of running staff (backbar AOE, heavy attack Regen, ele drain + 5280 debuff for backbar offense + Regen boost). This is why you run ice staff staff.

Chilled debuff grants minor maim. If you use force pulse as your spamable, you'll be throwing this status effect around like candy replacing some sets/abilities depending your build/class.

Being semi-useful in pvp if you're fortunate enough to find a master staff means nothing to a majority of the player base that plays pve.

even in pve, the chilled snare is worthless. doesn't work on bosses and only certain mobs.
Armor can't compete with sword/shield. minor maim comes from other sources almost all the time..

Ice staffs are bad, no matter how you want to try and spin it.

jakeedmundson

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

Lynx7386

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

kylewwefan

My mag ice warden pretty much sucks, but is unique kind of. Good for normal stuff.

Rocking winterborn/Maelstrom Frosty/Master Frosty/ Willpower and Iceheart. It’s funny, even on normal I’ve had tanks yell at me for stealing their aggro. His damage is not a lot.

It is great when you kill something and it freezes into a statue and disintegrate. The winterborn proc is pretty cool too. And iceheart just to complete the frosty theme.

jakeedmundson

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Minno

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

jakeedmundson

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

I'm not saying anything about its usefulness in pvp. I'm sure it has some potential there for specific builds.

All i'm saying is to make it useful in pve (as a tank weapon, dps, or even some kind of support weapon) they need to make changes one way or another and completely commit to it. Right now, all the skills are still for dps... but the passives are for tanks.

I do agree with the bold above though. They need to change the taunt somehow.

Lynx7386

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

He was talking about the supposed "18 threads a day" i make (even though I've only created maybe 5 threads in the past week), and I certainly never post about ice staff as a dps weapon - I fully support it as a tanking tool.

While I wouldn't mind having destructive reach or clench as a taunt, I personally like the situational benefit of heavy attacks ad a free taunt. In fact, I would love if 1h+shield also taunted enemies on heavy attacks as an innate ability for tanking weapon types.

Minno

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

He was talking about the supposed "18 threads a day" i make (even though I've only created maybe 5 threads in the past week), and I certainly never post about ice staff as a dps weapon - I fully support it as a tanking tool.

While I wouldn't mind having destructive reach or clench as a taunt, I personally like the situational benefit of heavy attacks ad a free taunt. In fact, I would love if 1h+shield also taunted enemies on heavy attacks as an innate ability for tanking weapon types.

If the heavy attack taunt is more desirable, they should make so that the destro passive grants you a small shield/dmg mitigation buff during the channel and a small shield/buff when the heavy attack ends. That should help alleviate concerns about heavy attack taunt being sub optimal in trial environments.

jakeedmundson

Minno wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

He was talking about the supposed "18 threads a day" i make (even though I've only created maybe 5 threads in the past week), and I certainly never post about ice staff as a dps weapon - I fully support it as a tanking tool.

While I wouldn't mind having destructive reach or clench as a taunt, I personally like the situational benefit of heavy attacks ad a free taunt. In fact, I would love if 1h+shield also taunted enemies on heavy attacks as an innate ability for tanking weapon types.

If the heavy attack taunt is more desirable, they should make so that the destro passive grants you a small shield/dmg mitigation buff during the channel and a small shield/buff when the heavy attack ends. That should help alleviate concerns about heavy attack taunt being sub optimal in trial environments.

My only gripe about the taunt is that it takes so long... maybe make it as fast as dual wield heavy attacks
When you lose taunt and need to get it back, 2 seconds to taunt is more than enough time for a boss to turn and swipe someone.

Lynx7386

Minno wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Look at it this way:
In the current tank meta, tanks do not run dual shield bars; they run shield front bar and lightning staff back bar. Yes, tanks are using a purely dps weapon. This is done primarily for two reasons:
1. Blockade of storms sets concussed enemies off balance, so a tank running this on back bar procs off balance to improve group damage via exploiter.
2. Wall of elements (with any staff type) will proc your front bar enchants when you weapon swap, so having it available means greater uptime on the crusher enchant.

Now, with the dragon bones update the off balance status effect has a 20 second cool down and only a 5 second duration. This means it is going to only boost damage by 10% 25% of the time, amounting to less than 2.5% damage increase overall (less because you will no longer be able to have a prime rotation going during off balance for damage dealers in the raid).

That said, most healers and magicka dps also back bar a lighting staff as-is, so with the new cool down limitation there is absolutely no reason for a tank to run it other than point #2 above, and the wall of elements crusher application can be used with any staff type.


So as a tank, you can run a lightning staff back bar to give maybe a 2-2.5% damage increase to the group which your healer and dps are probably already providing anyways, or you can run an ice staff.

With an ice staff on the back bar, you sacrifice less resistance while on the back bar due to frost staves giving armor and allowing you to keep blocking at full strength so you don't risk getting bursted while on the back bar. You gain the ability to apply minor maim without needing another source for it (assuming you don't run heroic slash, this primarily benefits wardens who get heroism from shimmering shield), a long with an aoe snare and root. Additionally, you need less stamina sustain because you can now turn magicka into blocking power directly, allowing stamina to recover.

In addition you gain a (albeit situational) free long range taunt, removing the need to slot inner fire (an extremely expensive ranged taunt). This means more space on your bar for other support abilities without losing the ability to taunt ranged targets when necessary.

All that and you still get the same crusher uptime benefit from blockade that you would with a lightning staff or fire staff

To me, those benefits outweigh the loss of 2.5% or less damage, which again will be covered by dps now anyhow. What else are you going to run on a back bar other than a second 1h/shield which offers nothing your front bar doesn't?


The point is, frost staves are an option for many builds now where they weren't before. Anyone who wants to run an ice dps setup can still do so by avoiding the tri focus passive, but they'll get the same treatment as 2h dps or bow main dps - they aren't optimal trials setups. That doesn't stop people from running those setups and still succeeding in 90% of game content.

All the stuff in bold above... tells me that you don't actually tank anything besides normal dungeons.

why are you and @Minno so against making this weapon a better option?? I don't understand the need to argue about this... It obviously isn't up to par with any other weapon choice.

You'd be wrong, but go ahead and assume.

I feel safe with my assumptions... i see the 18 threads you post every day.

But if you want to prove me wrong, post a video of you tanking hard mode bloodroot with an ice staff.

Because those threads keep insinuating that frost staff has no direct DPS capabilities and they want to turn frost DMG to compete with fire/lighting. Options outside of DPS are more important, IMHO.

We mention uses for frost staff. It's very strong as a backbar item, when you use wall of elements and elemental drain. For PvP, this helps give back added Regen and offense missing for some classes (like mAgplars).

To make frost staff more effective, they could provide an AOE root using impulse (the morph that you throw to the ground). And move the taunt to destructive reach given it's cost and ranged potential (then add a debuff/buff to the heavy attack ).

Otherwise I think it's in a balanced spot for a support weapon. Not my fault players ignore the potential with it's backbar versatility and try to play something that isn't intended.

Here is a bonus BG video:
https://youtu.be/cftEaMOB5g0

He was talking about the supposed "18 threads a day" i make (even though I've only created maybe 5 threads in the past week), and I certainly never post about ice staff as a dps weapon - I fully support it as a tanking tool.

While I wouldn't mind having destructive reach or clench as a taunt, I personally like the situational benefit of heavy attacks ad a free taunt. In fact, I would love if 1h+shield also taunted enemies on heavy attacks as an innate ability for tanking weapon types.

If the heavy attack taunt is more desirable, they should make so that the destro passive grants you a small shield/dmg mitigation buff during the channel and a small shield/buff when the heavy attack ends. That should help alleviate concerns about heavy attack taunt being sub optimal in trial environments.

The issues here is how players are using it.

Obviously no tank worth their salt is going to heavy attack taunt while they're being wailed on - that's just idiotic gameplay. You only use the heavy taunt opportunistically when a window for it is open and necessary (initial pulls are a good example, so you can tag an enemy or two while moving in) or in a few more mobile boss fights where you risk losing the taunt while at range.

This is one of the reasons why I still say frost staff is ideal as a back bar tanking weapon, and not a main tanking weapon. You still need an instant taunt a good portion of the time, and inner fire is too expensive for that purpose.

In trials the heavy attack taunt should be limited to specific fights and only used by the offtank. Nobody is saying you should be using heavy attack taunt on axes.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Yeah I totally agree. We've had enough with this ice tanking fiasco, it fails in all aspects, from the ice "destro" staff to the lackluster ice based tank sets.

Just introduce a new weapon skill line for magicka based tanking and let the ice "DESTRO" staff be DPS, make the new weapon ice too if you want.

My suggestion would be making the tri-focus passive for ice destro Staves boost your overall crit chance and crit damage.

Arobain

barbarian340 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

but i'm sure to the nay sayers even if i posted videos of me tanking the hardest content, or me winning duels against others, it wont change their minds, and they'll just go

' so? i dont care, its still *** because i said so "

you guys say yall want the ice staff and ice mage builds to work and be good, but they are good, and you're just not willing to even try to make or use a build that revolves around it because its outside of the meta, or outside of your comfort zone, idk

can you do all endgame pve content with it as a dps? that's what im trying to focus on

i have not built it to be pure dps, its designed for dps/tanking leaning to tanking, i dont have the gold just yet to buy extra sets to adjust it from pure dps or pure tank yet,( just started to think up what needs to be done yesterday ) but my build is made for pvp, and i dont do trials so i cant really say anything on its capabilities there, it has been able to do some really nice damage though, just not on the level of a pure single target dps, especially since my ice mage is AOE focused

Arobain

brandonv516 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

sigh, i get about 30k wards, i have tanked with this build, how is it hard for my healer if i rarely ever get my ward down? i heal myself, if you want to have a civil discussion about my build instead of simply trying to assume how it does, how about we have that, because you are honestly completely wrong about the build, yet i know you're an elitist that think they can absolutely say what a build is without even seeing it

newsflash, if you are build revolves around using wards for survival, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON whatsoever to put any points at all into health, your wards ARE your health, wards do not scale on health, they purely scale on max mag, and thats it, so tell me the point of investing any points into health, if my wards are up 24/7? yes the minotaurs mega hit kills me, >>>> IF <<<<< my ward is down without me paying attention ( only if it decays due to time ) and yes the minotaur's hit drains my ward, almost completely, but thats why i simply click my ' 4 ' button and reapply it, the minotaur hit DOES NOT kill me through my ward, and it barely even touches my health

but like i said in my pervious post

>>>>>>>but i'm sure to the nay sayers even if i posted videos of me tanking the hardest content, or me winning duels against others, it wont change their minds, and they'll just go

' so? i dont care, its still *** because i said so "

Stopped reading at 30k wards. The image you showed had 34k magicka. I'd love to know how you get those massive shields.

annulment morph = 20k ( maybe more ) and iceheart proc 10k ( always up because i'm AOE tick focused with high crit )

Arobain

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

the ice staff is an AMAZING support weapon, heres what it can do

minor maim
immob ( EXTREMELY high upkeep )
100% upkeep on snares

but you guys all knew it, so you take those 3 elements, and have your build revolve completely around it and you got it

KanedaSyndrome

I currently use ice staves as dps and I heavy attack in vet dungeons.

Laquey

I think a Warden Frost Staff / Resto Staff would be niche PvP / PvE build with Winterborn / Necropotence + 1 piece domihaus

Warden's +6% class frost damage bonus offsets the -8% aoe and single target damage loss from fire and ice staff and the amount of proc chances a warden would get from frost light attack, Winter's Revenge, Frost Blockade, Northern Storm, Crushing shock, Elemental Ring and other really annoying procs would drive people nuts. A frost warden with a decent PvP set up with resto staff would be almost unkillable 1v1 and could ignore most people and just find groups of 2+ to sit on and kill with cleave.

FROST MADNESS!

1vXing 3 people with northern storm / Frost blockade / Winters revenge up with just light attacks and elemental ring is 13 8% chances per second if they are on top of you to proc Winterborn. You also get minor protection, major protection, minor maim, 70% snare, immobilize when chilled and doing about 25K+ tooltip DPS on all three targets just from you with only the average proc per second on each target.

Fun times?

Imagine running into a group of 10+ people with that, much salt.

That is if winterborn still has no ICD.

Arobain

my ice mage uses winterborn and its extremely epic

Savos_Saren

I’m actually leveling an Argonian Ice Tank. All attributes into health.

2 Ice Heart
5 Innate Axiom
5 Ysgramor

SnB on the front bar as follows:
Arctic Blast, Puncture, Ice Fortress, Shimmering Shield, Gripping Shards. Ultimate: Permafrost

Frost Destro on the back bar as follows:
Bird of Prey, Destructive Reach, Inner Light, Blue Betty, Elemental Blockade Ultimate: Ice Comet

Putting all attributes toward health not only boosts your tankiness- but it increases the heals/damage of arctic blast and gripping shards.

When you swap to your Frost Destro staff on the back bar- you loose out on the 5th piece of Innate- but all your damage abilities on that bar aren’t class abilities and they’re buffed by Ysgramor!

The Argonian passives synergize well with this build since the extra health and magicka buffs your damage, heals, and benefits from the Maturation passive.

I’ll post my stats once I reach Lvl 50 (It’ll jump to CP720)

Night_Child

I know this has been said before, but I will say it again. The Ice Staff is NOT a tanking weapon. Again, THE ICE STAFF IS NOT a tanking weapon.

Now, the Ice Staff can be made to be a tanking weapon, but it is optional. The passive Tri Focus under the Destruction Staff skill line is what makes the difference. As an Ice Wizard (or Mage or Sorcerer or whatever name you may have for it), I deal about 35k damage and have completed Trials. Will you be top DPS? No. Will you do the least DPS? No. Out of 12 people in a trial, I will say based on other's and their thoughts, I was around 4 or 5 with everyone extremely close in numbers except 1, 2, 3 who were probably doing my stamina based Nightblade numbers critically hitting for 46k+.

What does an Ice Wizard have to offer? Well, they bring support in the form of crowd control to the table. They can be hearty and fully buffed with shields which makes the healers job a lot easier for the group and deal average to above average dps depending on their rotation and Champion Point allocation.

I ignore all that "meta" ***. Meta is relative. If you hit or constantly crit for 32k-40k with a character you built from scratch and have so much fun playing, then that character is good enough for EVERYTHING in the game. I've never seen anyone solo a hard mode vet trial. You have other's with you. On the flipside, no one should ever want to be carried. I don't build characters based on the number output and success other players have with a certain class. I think outside the box and still achieve everything in game. Some things are more challenging than others, but I found that for me, my intellect and creativity has no rival when it comes to the Elder Scrolls Online. Do you see TONS of players rolling Ice Wizards? No. Do you see TONS of players rolling true Shadowscales? No. What about Beastmaster builds? Nope. They are created builds by me (though, Shadowscale was published before I got to it) that have enough to get the job done and I have so much fun playing them.

If anyone has any questions about ANYTHING. My PSN is Night7Child and I play on the NA server. Send a message with the invite and let's talk. I do love to learn from others and help others excel. It is much easier to talk about builds via mic than the forums...at least for me it is. Enjoy and I hope that I was able to help.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Night_Child wrote: »

....

I know this has been said before, but I will say it again, NECRO.

Night_Child

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Night_Child wrote: »

....

I know this has been said before, but I will say it again, NECRO.

I know this has been said before, but I will say it again: STFU. NOBODY CARES. If I am going to update a build that is not updated so that future readers could read material not outdated and is relevant to the topic, I am going to do it. Like it or love it. There are posts on here from February 2018, so go police someone else you fool.

Night_Child

Arobain wrote: »

my ice mage uses winterborn and its extremely epic

What other two sets do you use with Winterborn?

Night_Child

barbarian340 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

but i'm sure to the nay sayers even if i posted videos of me tanking the hardest content, or me winning duels against others, it wont change their minds, and they'll just go

' so? i dont care, its still *** because i said so "

you guys say yall want the ice staff and ice mage builds to work and be good, but they are good, and you're just not willing to even try to make or use a build that revolves around it because its outside of the meta, or outside of your comfort zone, idk

can you do all endgame pve content with it as a dps? that's what im trying to focus on

The answer to this question is simply...YES!

Night_Child

klowdy1 wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

leandro.800ub17_ESO wrote: »

There are not that many skills as "ice" on the warden to make it viable
If you could use ice staff as dps that would be diferent but since ice staff if not used by anyone (tanks or dps) you cant currently make use of ice builds.
As a tank for me ice staff changes were the worst of the worst implementations in ESO

my ice mage ONLY uses ice based damage, and not a single skill or ability i use, is non ice based damage, except for the occasional use of beetles on my back bar, ice staff can definitely be used for dps, and the ice staff is honestly really amazing

Ice staff can be used for DPS as a solo player, or in PvP. That needs to be clear to new players reading your post. It is a "tank" weapon, and taunts with a fully charged heavy attack. We don't need new players running around, tau ting without knowing they are, becoming jaded to the game because other players will tear them down without explaining the situation. It is not a viable group/endgame DPS weapon.

Ice staffs are NOT tank weapons. Ice staffs do NOT taunt the enemy via a fully charged heavy attack; however, an Ice Staff with the Tri Focus passive is a tank weapon. An Ice Staff with the Tri Focus passive will taunt the enemy with a fully charged heavy attack. There's a big difference.

_Ahala_

Vaoh wrote: »

Anhedonie wrote: »

A man can only dream.

^

^

TankHealz2015

This guy did not get the memo... he is tanking with ice staff on back bar and making it look easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHSX4ifIa6E&amp;t=4s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzBIBoLS8Ww&amp;t=427s

Datthaw

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Maybe it isn't a dps or tank weapon. Maybe its a support weapon.

Open your box and think outside of it for a change.

What is it supporting? Any debuff or CC that the ice staff can do already comes from other sources and is usually out matched.

I guess i don't understand how anyone thinks this weapon is useful. Fun? sure, it can be for solo play... but viable for any job choice? not quite.

Ok all you naysayers need to stop. Have you ever actually tried an ice build?

THIS IS COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY RUNS AN ICE STAFF IN PVP.

ice staff is amazing, it is a SUPPORT weapon and playstyle. The aoe snares and maim procs are what you build for. You are the zone control on where your group decided to fight. Laying down ice aoe at choke points and the snares will stack leaving your opponents unable to move.

As stated here no one theory crafts or even bothers to try, just cry useless, and it's pathetic.

My setup
argonian magnb
5 winterborn
5 lich (backbar)
2 skoria
1 master ice (charged with cold enchant)

Ice bar: annulment (either morph), mercy bow, cloak, destructive reach, ele blockade, soul teather
Resto bar: healing ward, siphon strikes, fear, degeneration, refreshing path, lights champion.

Just by using 2 ice skills and ice glyph I have beenable to freeze groups with snares and winterborn procs while my group lines up and ult bombs them.

Can I 1v1 like I can with flame staff? No but flame staff doesn't have the group utility. Everyone needs to just stop crying and mimicking what others say on this forum. Actually try playing the game and your opinion might change