Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Mr_Wolfe

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Does anyone know whether the heal from Claws of Life is based on the tooltip damage or the damage that actually gets through your target's defenses?

Because if it's the former, my claws of life will heal more than Hircine's Rage within the first 3-4 seconds. (The initial heal would only be about 2k less.)

Damage that actually gets through target's defenses.

Ah, that's what I thought. So they're both useless now then.

Though I'm curious, does hitting multiple enemies with Claws of Life actually increase the healing return? (ie: you heal for a portion of the damage dealt to each target?) I've always assumed it did, but there's no real way for me to check since we don't have combat metrics on xbox.

Chrlynsch

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Does anyone know whether the heal from Claws of Life is based on the tooltip damage or the damage that actually gets through your target's defenses?

Because if it's the former, my claws of life will heal more than Hircine's Rage within the first 3-4 seconds. (The initial heal would only be about 2k less.)

Damage that actually gets through target's defenses.

Ah, that's what I thought. So they're both useless now then.

Though I'm curious, does hitting multiple enemies with Claws of Life actually increase the healing return? (ie: you heal for a portion of the damage dealt to each target?) I've always assumed it did, but there's no real way for me to check since we don't have combat metrics on xbox.

It does.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Does anyone know whether the heal from Claws of Life is based on the tooltip damage or the damage that actually gets through your target's defenses?

Because if it's the former, my claws of life will heal more than Hircine's Rage within the first 3-4 seconds. (The initial heal would only be about 2k less.)

Damage that actually gets through target's defenses.

Ah, that's what I thought. So they're both useless now then.

Though I'm curious, does hitting multiple enemies with Claws of Life actually increase the healing return? (ie: you heal for a portion of the damage dealt to each target?) I've always assumed it did, but there's no real way for me to check since we don't have combat metrics on xbox.

It does.

Do you think if i go trifood with my stam rec at only 1.4k do you think thats enough?

IlCanis_LupuslI

well more like 1.3k really but with Grundwulf that should be around 1.7k with constitution effectivly 2k....

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Does anyone know whether the heal from Claws of Life is based on the tooltip damage or the damage that actually gets through your target's defenses?

Because if it's the former, my claws of life will heal more than Hircine's Rage within the first 3-4 seconds. (The initial heal would only be about 2k less.)

Damage that actually gets through target's defenses.

Ah, that's what I thought. So they're both useless now then.

Though I'm curious, does hitting multiple enemies with Claws of Life actually increase the healing return? (ie: you heal for a portion of the damage dealt to each target?) I've always assumed it did, but there's no real way for me to check since we don't have combat metrics on xbox.

It does.

Do you think if i go trifood with my stam rec at only 1.4k do you think thats enough?

In heavy, I have been running sub 1k recovery for years now. With the improved range of heavy attacks/ off balance time increase, it makes landing them much more reliable.

IlCanis_LupuslI

True i had forgotten about that, ill just keep the glyph the same thou, if i feel i have enough sustain even when under pressure ill change it to wd(shorten the fight etc^^)

IlCanis_LupuslI

Just tested Grundwulf, proccs on cooldown, very nice stam sustain, very recommendable in combination with dot poisons

IlCanis_LupuslI

I usually test it on the gargoyle boss in Rivenspire^^ very good for sustain testing coz the adds try uppercut spamming u non stop and he hits like a truck and has high constant pressure. sofar im feeling comfortable. with grundwulf i should be able to drop 1 more rec glyph
I lll probably do that after testing it in pvp, sofar im just doing dry runs tweaking this b**** of a build.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Test results from pvp yesterday: sustain very good grundwulf is a very good set for werewolves. Setup is working fine had a nice 4vs12 yesterday enjoying werewolf. The 20k max mag is helping and grundwulf + desert ensures a constant magica coming in. Didn't have the feeling that my mag or stam sustain was insufficient. Heals are a it less but crit alot more often (10.tk non crit 16.8k crit) ha and la damage has gone down but is alot easier to land(man can't remember the last time on werewolf when 95% of my heavy attacks hit the intended target XD)

Still killing people quite easily (well except tanks but with the defile nerf ages ago I've gotten used to struggle with those)

Yesterday pretty much every fear->ha->Hoa combo I set up landed quite easily I almost never missed it. I sofar the only thing I can fuss about is the stupidly high overall damage anything over 1vs3 is risky atm unless the enemies are totally brain dead.

What's nice is that those annoying 3-4 man resource camping is sob's who literally just farm solo players seem to struggle to fight any bigger groups with their usual solo setups.

In group vs zerg healing has gotten tough but with my nb I manage quite well in keeping my group alive. I think I'll get used d to this patch quick.
Just involves executing the werewolf bursts perfectly most of the time to bring people down.

Yeah it was nerfed but I thi k it is compensatable with player skill.
I just have to get better in landing my combos even when under pressure then I should be fine.

Mr_Wolfe

Yeah, no amount of skill is going to get me ~30% of my damage back.

Unless you count switching morphs as "skill."

Qbiken

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Test results from pvp yesterday: sustain very good grundwulf is a very good set for werewolves. Setup is working fine had a nice 4vs12 yesterday enjoying werewolf. The 20k max mag is helping and grundwulf + desert ensures a constant magica coming in. Didn't have the feeling that my mag or stam sustain was insufficient. Heals are a it less but crit alot more often (10.tk non crit 16.8k crit) ha and la damage has gone down but is alot easier to land(man can't remember the last time on werewolf when 95% of my heavy attacks hit the intended target XD)

Still killing people quite easily (well except tanks but with the defile nerf ages ago I've gotten used to struggle with those)

Yesterday pretty much every fear->ha->Hoa combo I set up landed quite easily I almost never missed it. I sofar the only thing I can fuss about is the stupidly high overall damage anything over 1vs3 is risky atm unless the enemies are totally brain dead.

What's nice is that those annoying 3-4 man resource camping is sob's who literally just farm solo players seem to struggle to fight any bigger groups with their usual solo setups.

In group vs zerg healing has gotten tough but with my nb I manage quite well in keeping my group alive. I think I'll get used d to this patch quick.
Just involves executing the werewolf bursts perfectly most of the time to bring people down.

Yeah it was nerfed but I thi k it is compensatable with player skill.
I just have to get better in landing my combos even when under pressure then I should be fine.

If you're in a group you're still going to be fine, but solo ww is more or less extinct (unless you fight bad players) 1vX against semi decent players barely exists anymore sadly

cmvet

Been trying out a different build in BG's, and I agree you need to be around 20k mag. I'm only running about 35k stam and 32k health. Have both mag and stam recovery at 1k. Definitely run tristat pots and tri-food. The stam cost of ww skills feels very excessive for the mediocre damage output. You really have to time your bursts and use more Ha's.

The immobilization's seem to be everywhere now so be prepared.

NB's are not too much of an issue, but magDK's and wardens seem to be giving me more trouble now. Got wrecked a few times tonight with tight groups, but that happens. Will keep testing the next few day, then post it. In 20 some odd deathmatch rounds, I have not seen any other ww yet. Sad times. Would be nice to see how it is when grouped up with another.

IlCanis_LupuslI

cmvet wrote: »

Been trying out a different build in BG's, and I agree you need to be around 20k mag. I'm only running about 35k stam and 32k health. Have both mag and stam recovery at 1k. Definitely run tristat pots and tri-food. The stam cost of ww skills feels very excessive for the mediocre damage output. You really have to time your bursts and use more Ha's.

The immobilization's seem to be everywhere now so be prepared.

NB's are not too much of an issue, but magDK's and wardens seem to be giving me more trouble now. Got wrecked a few times tonight with tight groups, but that happens. Will keep testing the next few day, then post it. In 20 some odd deathmatch rounds, I have not seen any other ww yet. Sad times. Would be nice to see how it is when grouped up with another.

I'm at 20k mag, 32k HP, 44k stam, 4.4k wd, 1.2k stam rec(grundwulf so so still good sustain) why is your max stam so low? Maby tower mundus?

IlCanis_LupuslI

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Yeah, no amount of skill is going to get me ~30% of my damage back.

Unless you count switching morphs as "skill."

Adapting to different situations is a skill yes. And imagine you'd get so good you can time your burst effectively every time. I think this would compensate the damage loss. With the extra range I'm pretty sure that should be doable. As for 1vsxing... I don't think any class can pull that off with this patch VS semi decent players solo is dead. It's group up or die...

This is a development I've seen getting stronger each patch.
It's not necessarily new tbh.
If you change your build a bit I think I calculated the damage loss to be more like 15-20% but the burst option being more reliable.
Also the new claws do hit quite hard, had a few 5-6k hits in the short pvp session yesterday.

IlCanis_LupuslI

I'm spending the next few days getting the rest of the pack adapted to the changes tbh,
It's going 2 be alot of work

Mr_Wolfe

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Yeah, no amount of skill is going to get me ~30% of my damage back.

Unless you count switching morphs as "skill."

Adapting to different situations is a skill yes. And imagine you'd get so good you can time your burst effectively every time. I think this would compensate the damage loss. With the extra range I'm pretty sure that should be doable. As for 1vsxing... I don't think any class can pull that off with this patch VS semi decent players solo is dead. It's group up or die...

This is a development I've seen getting stronger each patch.
It's not necessarily new tbh.
If you change your build a bit I think I calculated the damage loss to be more like 15-20% but the burst option being more reliable.
Also the new claws do hit quite hard, had a few 5-6k hits in the short pvp session yesterday.

Yeah, no.

I've been climbing this ladder for years, and ZOS just burned it out from under me. Pretending like that's somehow okay if we just try harder is frankly insulting. I've been trying as hard as I can, and now all of that effort has been rendered pointless. You know the old advice "work smarter, not harder?" Well the smart move here is to go back to playing something else.

But hey, maybe you like getting constantly screwed over better than me.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

Yeah, no amount of skill is going to get me ~30% of my damage back.

Unless you count switching morphs as "skill."

Adapting to different situations is a skill yes. And imagine you'd get so good you can time your burst effectively every time. I think this would compensate the damage loss. With the extra range I'm pretty sure that should be doable. As for 1vsxing... I don't think any class can pull that off with this patch VS semi decent players solo is dead. It's group up or die...

This is a development I've seen getting stronger each patch.
It's not necessarily new tbh.
If you change your build a bit I think I calculated the damage loss to be more like 15-20% but the burst option being more reliable.
Also the new claws do hit quite hard, had a few 5-6k hits in the short pvp session yesterday.

Yeah, no.

I've been climbing this ladder for years, and ZOS just burned it out from under me. Pretending like that's somehow okay if we just try harder is frankly insulting. I've been trying as hard as I can, and now all of that effort has been rendered pointless. You know the old advice "work smarter, not harder?" Well the smart move here is to go back to playing something else.

But hey, maybe you like getting constantly screwed over better than me.

Im just an optimist by nature^^ And i can be pretty stubborn^^ And just giving up without a fight isnt my style. Im certain this problem is solvable so im gonna solve it and if it takes a while so be it.

SirLeeMinion

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Im just an optimist by nature^^ And i can be pretty stubborn^^ And just giving up without a fight isnt my style. Im certain this problem is solvable so im gonna solve it and if it takes a while so be it.

Optimism is a valuable trait, and I hope it pays off for you. Me, I'm in Mr_Wolfe's camp. I pulled all the skill points from the WW line, and am playing other classes. While I'm not particularly good, I immediately primary the few WWs I still see in BGs for an easy kill. Of course, I'm mostly playing Elite Dangerous since update 23 dropped...

Mr_Wolfe

There's also a difference between "optimism" and "denial."

I remember what werewolf was like when I first started playing them, where you had to put in tons of work and optimize like crazy to even come close to being viable. So yes, I acknowledge it may be possible to still succeed as a werewolf...

...or, you could put that time and effort into literally any other spec, and be 10x more effective. That is a problem, let's not pretend like it isn't. I, for one, do not miss the days when werewolf was seen as a trap option that was only viable in the hands of the few elite WW players who could make them work.

Maybe @IlCanis_LupuslI just misses feeling special, but personally I thought it was a good thing when werewolf became more accessible.

Qbiken

@Mr_Wolfe
Wolfhunter update was a mistake and never should've happened. Sure it made werewolf more accessible and build diversity increased (since pelinal was no longer a must have), but there's no denial in that Wolfhunter update is where all the mess started, and it's essentially the reason why werewolf getting nerfed a year later..

Mr_Wolfe

No I'm pretty sure where the trouble started and what got werewolf nerfed was a few highly skilled players making werewolf out to be much more powerful / easy than it ever was. Then the pvp complainers who were used to wiping the floor with WW's joined in and that's what ZOS listened to.

There were a lot of things about wolfhunter that I wasn't pleased with, but actually making werewolves semi-competitive and accessible to so many more players is not one of them. High floors suck.

Skoomah

Qbiken wrote: »

@Mr_Wolfe
Wolfhunter update was a mistake and never should've happened. Sure it made werewolf more accessible and build diversity increased (since pelinal was no longer a must have), but there's no denial in that Wolfhunter update is where all the mess started, and it's essentially the reason why werewolf getting nerfed a year later..

Wolfhunter was a bad dlc. The sets sucked. The dungeons sucked. Introduced more bugs and cries for nerfs to werewolves. Streamers and eso content creators made videos making fun of how “easy” werewolves are to play. It brought to light the underlying discrimination against werewolves.

It did nothing to make werewolves better. They just shifted everything around so you could still achieve damage, healing, and tankiness in different ways.

It’s the same freaking formula each time. Change for the sake of change to get people engaged.

How about coming out with real content instead of shifting the meta around and calling that content updates.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Im still having loads of good fights and fun with my ww.
if life gives you lemons,
make lemonade.

cmvet

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

cmvet wrote: »

Been trying out a different build in BG's, and I agree you need to be around 20k mag. I'm only running about 35k stam and 32k health. Have both mag and stam recovery at 1k. Definitely run tristat pots and tri-food. The stam cost of ww skills feels very excessive for the mediocre damage output. You really have to time your bursts and use more Ha's.

The immobilization's seem to be everywhere now so be prepared.

NB's are not too much of an issue, but magDK's and wardens seem to be giving me more trouble now. Got wrecked a few times tonight with tight groups, but that happens. Will keep testing the next few day, then post it. In 20 some odd deathmatch rounds, I have not seen any other ww yet. Sad times. Would be nice to see how it is when grouped up with another.

I'm at 20k mag, 32k HP, 44k stam, 4.4k wd, 1.2k stam rec(grundwulf so so still good sustain) why is your max stam so low? Maby tower mundus?

Running completely different take on WW builds. Using lover mundus for the pen. Have no issues with healing or magicka. Just have to use more heavy attacks and time my burst in BG's. Low on transmute stones atm, need to change some jewelry around.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Had an amazing 2vs7 yesterday with my stamsorc ww^^ I waited till they were charging inside the keep banged 2 out in human Form then went ww on them as they were distracted :-D 2 healers as well. Only as I was servicing the last person the 2nd person joined in oh well was still funny didn't think I would pull it off :-D
Got a 30k defence tick as well ^^

IlCanis_LupuslI

I was playing around with my cp and would like 2 hear your thoughts.
According to my calculations about 60 %of ww damage comes from dots but what kills people is getting bursted with the HA-Hoa combo. Should I spec into dot damage or into making the Burst combo as strong as possible? Specced into dots I was having up up to 3k non crit bleed ticks but usually around 2.4-2.5k non crit vs players.
What do you think?
@CrazyWolf712 @Chrlynsch @Qbiken

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

I was playing around with my cp and would like 2 hear your thoughts.
According to my calculations about 60 %of ww damage comes from dots but what kills people is getting bursted with the HA-Hoa combo. Should I spec into dot damage or into making the Burst combo as strong as possible? Specced into dots I was having up up to 3k non crit bleed ticks but usually around 2.4-2.5k non crit vs players.
What do you think?
@CrazyWolf712 @Chrlynsch @Qbiken

Direct damage for next patch...

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

I was playing around with my cp and would like 2 hear your thoughts.
According to my calculations about 60 %of ww damage comes from dots but what kills people is getting bursted with the HA-Hoa combo. Should I spec into dot damage or into making the Burst combo as strong as possible? Specced into dots I was having up up to 3k non crit bleed ticks but usually around 2.4-2.5k non crit vs players.
What do you think?
@CrazyWolf712 @Chrlynsch @Qbiken

Direct damage for next patch...

Yep and kinda figured that one out lol 😂

brtomkin

We believe the werewolf is in a relatively good state balance-wise at the moment

ref.: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490953/u23-combat-q-a/p1, Aug. 24

I guess they changed their minds...

DreadDaedroth

How bad is the new patch for werewolves?