Werewolf Theorycrafting (PvP)

Amdar_Godkiller

Qbiken wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I usually run either Darkstride or Acuity with Kena or Troll King as well, and my playstyle is very much about staying at the 200% speed cap by permasprinting, zigzagging, light attack tagging, and defiling my opponents. I beat sorcs by chasing them and being faster than them while losing no stamina in pursuit, so they can never disengage and never effectively target me at range. It's just much more fun than a heavy armor build, and I don't ever run out of stam or mag. With the cooldown on immobilizations, it's really the best way to PVP as a WW right now.

The bolded part is where platform matters, and one can't say that a particular playstyle is BiS (since situation matters). Certain stuff that works on console won't work on PC (and vise versa).

The meta is very different on PC and console. For example, targeting on console is alot more difficult than it is on PC (hence why pack-leader is more frequently used on console)

Whenever I evaluate my ww builds I exclude everything that has to do with duels (including 1v1 encounters in open world) and group play (zerg surfing included), because it's easy to make a build for those specific situations. While immobilizations has been reduced in their effectiveness, snares are still a big problem, which you don't really solve with medium armor

And I heavily disagree that you can't rely on heavy attack for sustain. If you build towards a more "brawler" type of build, you can easily survive a few heavy attacks and with Roar no longer causing people to run in every direction possible, my heavy attacks lands more often than they miss (especially if you run immobilization poisons)

And if I were you, try swapping molag kena for slimecraw, the damage output you get is almost identical, but without the downside of having the increased cost from Molag Kena

I don't have any sustain issues with kena, so I really don't want to give up the 850 buffed weapon damage from kena. plus with acuity, it kind of makes the 1 piece bonus much less effective, and slimecraw is actually worse on WWs than any other build since it's only additive with CP damage done bonuses. This means you really only get like a 5% buff to your light attacks from it, making it rather weak.

Snares aren't really an issue since you can just roll dodge out of them. Roll dodge is cheap in medium with 66 CP invested in itk, and bonus mitigation.

I definitely meant that FOR ME, this is the best way to WW currently. I don't enjoy the slow pace of a heavy attack, heavy armor playstyle. I'd rather not PVP than PVP in that fashion.

I understand that most wolves were forced into heavy armor a few patches back, but that ain't for me because I primarily PVP on a stamplar that needs medium for burst and survivability. On my warden, I'd consider a heavy build maybe.

IlCanis_LupuslI

https://youtu.be/Z6vjaNSAdWI
Well medium is working extremely well for me.
Its well suited for my playstyle and synergies well with me beeing a stamblade. On sorc I probably would go heavy but on nb I prefer medium and the damage is disgustingly high. I had a 15k heavy attack in the video for example.
Maby heavy works better for you but for me I prefer medium atm and it's nice getting away from the heavy armor ww meta and it's also proof that while heavy works better for most builds it's in no way mandatory.
With me beeing a nightblade khajiit medium just fits better in my playstyle and as you can see even 3 stamden ult dumping me repeatedly or fighting outnumbered isn't a problem in medium.
Different playstyle different race different builds.
Remember the nb and khajiit have more mitigation (15%) and more recovery passives (15% recovery and 180 recovery with all bonuses playing more into medium armor then sorc). The sorc has more cost reduction passives and damage passives which plays more into the heavy armor passives imo.

IlCanis_LupuslI

In medium I find it easier to sustain long phases of me pressuring people then heavy armor and with nb getting 15% damage mitigation I simply felt that I didn't need heavy armor and rather have the extra damage and crit of medium.
The build is tailored to the nightblade even thou I've played it on sorc and it worked pretty well.
The ultimate test for me was fighting against a 3 man stamden team who were coordinating their ults. Despite getting hit with their beetles (20% more damage because of poison), dawnbreakers(20% more damage) I didn't feel that I needed the extra damage mitigation of heavy armor and beeing able to easily burst most people comes in handy when fighting in 1vs3-4 where getting 1-2 people out of the fight early is a life saver. Also in the end you can see medium saving my ass with the extra speed enabling me to disengage from a bulky red zerg.

IlCanis_LupuslI

But I hope the Gameplay video is proof enough this isn't a build that only works in 1vs1s or while zerging someone down.
Playing it I can take quite a beating, disengage easy and burst people Down quite easily aswell.
Also beeing a khajiit playing medium synergies better with medium them heavy because of the crit damage passive(you'll notice my crit chance is at 50% almost unheardofly high for a ww)
I'll admit it worked way better on my stamblade them my sorc. But even on my sorc I enjoyed it quite well.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Also in this high damage meta many people underestimate the amount of damage that dodgerolling can mitigate. Just watch the amount of dodged dodged popups in my video

Aznox

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

I only PVP, and heavy attacks aren't really a reliable source of stamina feturn for PVP WWs IMO. Definitely not every 10 seconds because A) it's just not reliable for targeting moving targets, it takes two seconds or more to complete one heavy attack, and C) it requires that you slow down. Once every 25 seconds would be the most you could reasonably expect against good players that understand how speed = mitigation.

I think all the good players i fight would benefit to get some teaching from you ...

Chrlynsch

We will use a sorc orc as our basis for both builds. Enchants, mundus, attributes and traits have been tweaked to get us as similar numbers as possible. Adjusting Medium until it has given what Heavy offers passively, while adjusting heavy to cover what medium offers.

Medium armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



Heavy armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



The Comparison

All numbers are broken down to regen equivalent levels, and proc on cooldown.

Heavy attacks: Done once every 25 seconds (cuz why not?)
Medium: 412
Heavy: 514

Stamina Gain: Stamina Regen, Constitution, Heavies
Medium: 2643
Heavy: 2909

Ability cost: average cost of stam abilites
Medium: 3928
Heavy: 3785

Ability Drain: average cost of all stamina abilities, Cast every 3 seconds
Medium: -2618
Heavy: -2523

Combat Recovery: Stamina gain - Ability Drain
Medium: 25 (yup)
Heavy: 386

Total Resistances
Medium: 59306
Heavy: 58650

Magicka Gain: Mag Regen, Desert rose, Constitution, Atro (on medium)
Medium: 941
Heavy: 876

Movement speed: Werewolf form, Steed
Medium: +30%
Heavy: +40%

Sprint Speed: Orc, Medium passives, werewolf, steed (heavy)
Medium: 95%
Heavy: 96%

Bonus Healing: Rapid Mending
Medium: 10%
Heavy: 8%

Heath Regen: HP regen, Steed, Seventh
Medium: 750
Heavy: 1153

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Well according to the passives it does?At least the dodge roll cost reduction it doesnt reduce the cost of sprint but the sprint speed is increased The medium armor athletics passives do reduce the dodge roll costat least the eso build editor and reading the passive say so. In any case the increased damage is totally worth it. Definetly loving medium atm. And as i said the regen passives and the increased movement speed in sprint are quite handy also since the relentless fokus provides me with enough mitigation i prefer the extra damage to kill people faster.

IlCanis_LupuslI

And the tankyness is better in heavy no doubt but as i said I chose medium for the extra damage provided without having to take stupid amounts of damage myself or having to use Sets i personally dislike(j7th & Fury) and having the extra damage available on demand, not having to wait for a 7th proc or for fury to finally decide to finally fully proc.
I chose medium because my tankyness is sufficient(thank you relentless fokus) and I dont have to increase it further with HA. I prefer Medium and getting the extra damage boost.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

We will use a sorc orc as our basis for both builds. Enchants, mundus, attributes and traits have been tweaked to get us as similar numbers as possible. Adjusting Medium until it has given what Heavy offers passively, while adjusting heavy to cover what medium offers.

Medium armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



Heavy armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



The Comparison

All numbers are broken down to regen equivalent levels, and proc on cooldown.

Heavy attacks: Done once every 25 seconds (cuz why not?)
Medium: 412
Heavy: 514

Stamina Gain: Stamina Regen, Constitution, Heavies
Medium: 2643
Heavy: 2909

Ability cost: average cost of stam abilites
Medium: 3928
Heavy: 3785

Ability Drain: average cost of all stamina abilities, Cast every 3 seconds
Medium: -2618
Heavy: -2523

Combat Recovery: Stamina gain - Ability Drain
Medium: 25 (yup)
Heavy: 386

Total Resistances
Medium: 59306
Heavy: 58650

Magicka Gain: Mag Regen, Desert rose, Constitution, Atro (on medium)
Medium: 941
Heavy: 876

Movement speed: Werewolf form, Steed
Medium: +30%
Heavy: +40%

Sprint Speed: Orc, Medium passives, werewolf, steed (heavy)
Medium: 95%
Heavy: 96%

Bonus Healing: Rapid Mending
Medium: 10%
Heavy: 8%

Heath Regen: HP regen, Steed, Seventh
Medium: 750
Heavy: 1153

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

And i know medium armor builds are tricky on the WW but in my opinion with the new Stamblade passive giving me 10k extra resistances i finally found a medium armor build that works, and be it only on the stamblade.
My effective resistances are at 43.6k isch in medium armor and for the first 26 seconds of a fight i get the 25% aoe mitigation from phenomenal escape or whatever is called. I know that sustainwise its more of a playstyle question between heavy and medium but i can say for sure the damage is definetly way better. I never before on any ww build had 8-9k houls on a regular basis and up to 18k crit houls or up to 15k crit heavy attacks literally pulverising most people with 1-2 burst combos while maintaining my mag even in fights longer then 15 min(keep defence u know how they can drag on).
My thought process was-> Nightblade(better sustain well recovery, potion passive, insane mitigation from the relentless focus) ->Khajiiit benefits more from a high crit rating damage wise(so medium armor)->medium armor has no mag sustain(so desert Rose)->desert rose enables me to use crit and wd potions to bump up my crit rating to 50%-> using pots enables me to use hircines fortitude(better heals)-> to amplify the crit and damage the best set which does both is nightmothers gaze(crit and major fracture) ->for maximum mitigation(mighty chudan also bumps up my health to 26k)-> to amplify the mobility and getting a nice passive heal->stead mundus(enables me to run circles against stamwardens which are kinda the group meta atm with necros and it enables me to get out of that colossos ult quick)
If you can find any fault in this thaught process of me making a ww build for a khajiit stamblade in using all the passives provided by that to its maximal potential your welcome too correct me, but i think for this constellation the combination i created uses those passives to its maximal potential.
Plus with all the medium builds ive seen which seem questionable uploading one which actually works seemed quite a challenge which i enjoyed tbh.
I don't want to senslessly argue im trying to describe my thaught process here and why i picked medium over heavy on a nightblade, a class which unlike the sorc doesnt have any damage passives but has a mitigation passive since last patch.
@Qbiken @Chrlynsch
I also might add i never upload builds which i havent tested for at least 3 weeks in pvp and where im satisfied that they work 100% and have no weaknesses i cant fix.

Chrlynsch

Just trying to provide hard data for players who, don't have time or the capability to test.

Picking Medium for a werewolf is fine if you are going to try to amplify max damage. But as I stated before it isn't the best for openworld or Outnumbered fighting. The damage gained from using medium really very minor.

But since we are on the topic of Medium's damage boost let us examine the extra damage is done when using Medium over Heavy.

For this compared we will use two of the highest weapon damage sets in the game Kena and Clever Alchemist to see how much extra damage we get out of using Medium over Heavy. For the third set we will use Prisoner's Rags that should help out our stamina regen and to give us at least some form of magic sustain. We will use howl of agony for our damage done comparison.

-We are cranking this to 11, all chips in, so we are using infused weapon damage glyphs.

-Warrior Mundus

5-2 Medium Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.



5-2 Heavy Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.




Critical Chance
Medium: 36.4
Heavy: 31.9

+4.5% crit chance

Weapon Damage
Medium: 7131
Heavy: 6432

+699 wd(Medium) wow, but how much more damage is it?

Howl Damage in pvp (before mitigation)
Medium: 12160
Heavy: 11960

(+200 damage) + 1.7% more damage

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

We will use a sorc orc as our basis for both builds. Enchants, mundus, attributes and traits have been tweaked to get us as similar numbers as possible. Adjusting Medium until it has given what Heavy offers passively, while adjusting heavy to cover what medium offers.

Medium armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



Heavy armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



The Comparison

All numbers are broken down to regen equivalent levels, and proc on cooldown.

Heavy attacks: Done once every 25 seconds (cuz why not?)
Medium: 412
Heavy: 514

Stamina Gain: Stamina Regen, Constitution, Heavies
Medium: 2643
Heavy: 2909

Ability cost: average cost of stam abilites
Medium: 3928
Heavy: 3785

Ability Drain: average cost of all stamina abilities, Cast every 3 seconds
Medium: -2618
Heavy: -2523

Combat Recovery: Stamina gain - Ability Drain
Medium: 25 (yup)
Heavy: 386

Total Resistances
Medium: 59306
Heavy: 58650

Magicka Gain: Mag Regen, Desert rose, Constitution, Atro (on medium)
Medium: 941
Heavy: 876

Movement speed: Werewolf form, Steed
Medium: +30%
Heavy: +40%

Sprint Speed: Orc, Medium passives, werewolf, steed (heavy)
Medium: 95%
Heavy: 96%

Bonus Healing: Rapid Mending
Medium: 10%
Heavy: 8%

Heath Regen: HP regen, Steed, Seventh
Medium: 750
Heavy: 1153

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

And i know medium armor builds are tricky on the WW but in my opinion with the new Stamblade passive giving me 10k extra resistances i finally found a medium armor build that works, and be it only on the stamblade.
My effective resistances are at 43.6k isch in medium armor and for the first 26 seconds of a fight i get the 25% aoe mitigation from phenomenal escape or whatever is called. I know that sustainwise its more of a playstyle question between heavy and medium but i can say for sure the damage is definetly way better. I never before on any ww build had 8-9k houls on a regular basis and up to 18k crit houls or up to 15k crit heavy attacks literally pulverising most people with 1-2 burst combos while maintaining my mag even in fights longer then 15 min(keep defence u know how they can drag on).
My thought process was-> Nightblade(better sustain well recovery, potion passive, insane mitigation from the relentless focus) ->Khajiiit benefits more from a high crit rating damage wise(so medium armor)->medium armor has no mag sustain(so desert Rose)->desert rose enables me to use crit and wd potions to bump up my crit rating to 50%-> using pots enables me to use hircines fortitude(better heals)-> to amplify the crit and damage the best set which does both is nightmothers gaze(crit and major fracture) ->for maximum mitigation(mighty chudan also bumps up my health to 26k)-> to amplify the mobility and getting a nice passive heal->stead mundus(enables me to run circles against stamwardens which are kinda the group meta atm with necros and it enables me to get out of that colossos ult quick)
If you can find any fault in this thaught process of me making a ww build for a khajiit stamblade in using all the passives provided by that to its maximal potential your welcome too correct me, but i think for this constellation the combination i created uses those passives to its maximal potential.
Plus with all the medium builds ive seen which seem questionable uploading one which actually works seemed quite a challenge which i enjoyed tbh.
I don't want to senslessly argue im trying to describe my thaught process here and why i picked medium over heavy on a nightblade, a class which unlike the sorc doesnt have any damage passives but has a mitigation passive since last patch.
@Qbiken @Chrlynsch
I also might add i never upload builds which i havent tested for at least 3 weeks in pvp and where im satisfied that they work 100% and have no weaknesses i cant fix.

Paragraphs please

Sharee

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

I just tested this. The cost of roll dodge was indeed higher in WW form than untransformed. Combat metrics tagged the untransformed rolling stamina drain as "roll dodge", but the transformed drain as "unknown". I suspect the werewolf roll, despite technically behaving like a dodge roll, is in fact a separate ability, one unaffected by roll dodge cost-reductions (still plan to test the CP dodge cost reduction, to see if it has effect).

On the other hand, stamina drain of sprint was identical in both transformed and untransformed states, so the cost reduction does seem to work.

Chrlynsch

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

I just tested this. The cost of roll dodge was indeed higher in WW form than untransformed. Combat metrics tagged the untransformed rolling stamina drain as "roll dodge", but the transformed drain as "unknown". I suspect the werewolf roll, despite technically behaving like a dodge roll, is in fact a separate ability, one unaffected by roll dodge cost-reductions (still plan to test the CP dodge cost reduction, to see if it has effect).

On the other hand, stamina drain of sprint was identical in both transformed and untransformed states, so the cost reduction does seem to work.

Thanks for double testing it.

I've tested it about 10 times now and am getting the same results, did you test it on an orc by chance, it may be possible that it is interacting with their swift passive, or possible prisoners. I've died, traveled, but every time it comes out the same.

Also interesting find on the roll dodge, cp points do influence the Werewolf's roll dodge from what I've tested.

Sharee

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

I just tested this. The cost of roll dodge was indeed higher in WW form than untransformed. Combat metrics tagged the untransformed rolling stamina drain as "roll dodge", but the transformed drain as "unknown". I suspect the werewolf roll, despite technically behaving like a dodge roll, is in fact a separate ability, one unaffected by roll dodge cost-reductions (still plan to test the CP dodge cost reduction, to see if it has effect).

On the other hand, stamina drain of sprint was identical in both transformed and untransformed states, so the cost reduction does seem to work.

Thanks for double testing it.

I've tested it about 10 times now and am getting the same results, did you test it on an orc by chance, it may be possible that it is interacting with their swift passive, or possible prisoners. I've died, traveled, but every time it comes out the same.

Also interesting find on the roll dodge, cp points do influence the Werewolf's roll dodge from what I've tested.

Testing was done on a khajiit necromancer, desert rose/nmg/chudan.

Chrlynsch

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

I just tested this. The cost of roll dodge was indeed higher in WW form than untransformed. Combat metrics tagged the untransformed rolling stamina drain as "roll dodge", but the transformed drain as "unknown". I suspect the werewolf roll, despite technically behaving like a dodge roll, is in fact a separate ability, one unaffected by roll dodge cost-reductions (still plan to test the CP dodge cost reduction, to see if it has effect).

On the other hand, stamina drain of sprint was identical in both transformed and untransformed states, so the cost reduction does seem to work.

Thanks for double testing it.

I've tested it about 10 times now and am getting the same results, did you test it on an orc by chance, it may be possible that it is interacting with their swift passive, or possible prisoners. I've died, traveled, but every time it comes out the same.

Also interesting find on the roll dodge, cp points do influence the Werewolf's roll dodge from what I've tested.

Testing was done on a khajiit necromancer, desert rose/nmg/chudan.

Awesome, I'll do some more testing tonight, maybe there is still some strange cap in place.

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

We will use a sorc orc as our basis for both builds. Enchants, mundus, attributes and traits have been tweaked to get us as similar numbers as possible. Adjusting Medium until it has given what Heavy offers passively, while adjusting heavy to cover what medium offers.

Medium armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



Heavy armor: 5-2

Kena, Mechanical, Prisoner's (MA procced, Kena procced)



The Comparison

All numbers are broken down to regen equivalent levels, and proc on cooldown.

Heavy attacks: Done once every 25 seconds (cuz why not?)
Medium: 412
Heavy: 514

Stamina Gain: Stamina Regen, Constitution, Heavies
Medium: 2643
Heavy: 2909

Ability cost: average cost of stam abilites
Medium: 3928
Heavy: 3785

Ability Drain: average cost of all stamina abilities, Cast every 3 seconds
Medium: -2618
Heavy: -2523

Combat Recovery: Stamina gain - Ability Drain
Medium: 25 (yup)
Heavy: 386

Total Resistances
Medium: 59306
Heavy: 58650

Magicka Gain: Mag Regen, Desert rose, Constitution, Atro (on medium)
Medium: 941
Heavy: 876

Movement speed: Werewolf form, Steed
Medium: +30%
Heavy: +40%

Sprint Speed: Orc, Medium passives, werewolf, steed (heavy)
Medium: 95%
Heavy: 96%

Bonus Healing: Rapid Mending
Medium: 10%
Heavy: 8%

Heath Regen: HP regen, Steed, Seventh
Medium: 750
Heavy: 1153

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

And i know medium armor builds are tricky on the WW but in my opinion with the new Stamblade passive giving me 10k extra resistances i finally found a medium armor build that works, and be it only on the stamblade.
My effective resistances are at 43.6k isch in medium armor and for the first 26 seconds of a fight i get the 25% aoe mitigation from phenomenal escape or whatever is called. I know that sustainwise its more of a playstyle question between heavy and medium but i can say for sure the damage is definetly way better. I never before on any ww build had 8-9k houls on a regular basis and up to 18k crit houls or up to 15k crit heavy attacks literally pulverising most people with 1-2 burst combos while maintaining my mag even in fights longer then 15 min(keep defence u know how they can drag on).
My thought process was-> Nightblade(better sustain well recovery, potion passive, insane mitigation from the relentless focus) ->Khajiiit benefits more from a high crit rating damage wise(so medium armor)->medium armor has no mag sustain(so desert Rose)->desert rose enables me to use crit and wd potions to bump up my crit rating to 50%-> using pots enables me to use hircines fortitude(better heals)-> to amplify the crit and damage the best set which does both is nightmothers gaze(crit and major fracture) ->for maximum mitigation(mighty chudan also bumps up my health to 26k)-> to amplify the mobility and getting a nice passive heal->stead mundus(enables me to run circles against stamwardens which are kinda the group meta atm with necros and it enables me to get out of that colossos ult quick)
If you can find any fault in this thaught process of me making a ww build for a khajiit stamblade in using all the passives provided by that to its maximal potential your welcome too correct me, but i think for this constellation the combination i created uses those passives to its maximal potential.
Plus with all the medium builds ive seen which seem questionable uploading one which actually works seemed quite a challenge which i enjoyed tbh.
I don't want to senslessly argue im trying to describe my thaught process here and why i picked medium over heavy on a nightblade, a class which unlike the sorc doesnt have any damage passives but has a mitigation passive since last patch.
@Qbiken @Chrlynsch
I also might add i never upload builds which i havent tested for at least 3 weeks in pvp and where im satisfied that they work 100% and have no weaknesses i cant fix.

Could you post us a build editor of your current set up?

Chrlynsch

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Fun Fact for the future, medium armor does not reduce the cost of sprint or roll dodge while in werewolf form.

I just tested this. The cost of roll dodge was indeed higher in WW form than untransformed. Combat metrics tagged the untransformed rolling stamina drain as "roll dodge", but the transformed drain as "unknown". I suspect the werewolf roll, despite technically behaving like a dodge roll, is in fact a separate ability, one unaffected by roll dodge cost-reductions (still plan to test the CP dodge cost reduction, to see if it has effect).

On the other hand, stamina drain of sprint was identical in both transformed and untransformed states, so the cost reduction does seem to work.

Thanks for double testing it.

I've tested it about 10 times now and am getting the same results, did you test it on an orc by chance, it may be possible that it is interacting with their swift passive, or possible prisoners. I've died, traveled, but every time it comes out the same.

Also interesting find on the roll dodge, cp points do influence the Werewolf's roll dodge from what I've tested.

Testing was done on a khajiit necromancer, desert rose/nmg/chudan.

Was the orc's passive swift warrior that didn't apply to the werewolf sprint cost reduction.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Just trying to provide hard data for players who, don't have time or the capability to test.

Picking Medium for a werewolf is fine if you are going to try to amplify max damage. But as I stated before it isn't the best for openworld or Outnumbered fighting. The damage gained from using medium really very minor.

But since we are on the topic of Medium's damage boost let us examine the extra damage is done when using Medium over Heavy.

For this compared we will use two of the highest weapon damage sets in the game Kena and Clever Alchemist to see how much extra damage we get out of using Medium over Heavy. For the third set we will use Prisoner's Rags that should help out our stamina regen and to give us at least some form of magic sustain. We will use howl of agony for our damage done comparison.

-We are cranking this to 11, all chips in, so we are using infused weapon damage glyphs.

-Warrior Mundus

5-2 Medium Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.



5-2 Heavy Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.




Critical Chance
Medium: 36.4
Heavy: 31.9

+4.5% crit chance

Weapon Damage
Medium: 7131
Heavy: 6432

+699 wd(Medium) wow, but how much more damage is it?

Howl Damage in pvp (before mitigation)
Medium: 12160
Heavy: 11960

(+200 damage) + 1.7% more damage

True but when factoring in the higher crit chance critting more often expecially as a khajiit bumps up those critter houls quite a lot.
Before my houls critted for max 12k isch now my best hits are 18k. It feels alot more then 1.7% atm
Sure it's not the best choice but expecially when your getting chased and can mitigate all those projectiles by dodge rolling it's quite nice,it works. And as a nb medium Was the easiest choice in getting out some more damage since nb can afford it with their insane damage mitigation passive which is equal to almost 10k resistances.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=136052

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Just trying to provide hard data for players who, don't have time or the capability to test.

Picking Medium for a werewolf is fine if you are going to try to amplify max damage. But as I stated before it isn't the best for openworld or Outnumbered fighting. The damage gained from using medium really very minor.

But since we are on the topic of Medium's damage boost let us examine the extra damage is done when using Medium over Heavy.

For this compared we will use two of the highest weapon damage sets in the game Kena and Clever Alchemist to see how much extra damage we get out of using Medium over Heavy. For the third set we will use Prisoner's Rags that should help out our stamina regen and to give us at least some form of magic sustain. We will use howl of agony for our damage done comparison.

-We are cranking this to 11, all chips in, so we are using infused weapon damage glyphs.

-Warrior Mundus

5-2 Medium Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.



5-2 Heavy Kena, Clever Alchemist, Prisoner's.




Critical Chance
Medium: 36.4
Heavy: 31.9

+4.5% crit chance

Weapon Damage
Medium: 7131
Heavy: 6432

+699 wd(Medium) wow, but how much more damage is it?

Howl Damage in pvp (before mitigation)
Medium: 12160
Heavy: 11960

(+200 damage) + 1.7% more damage

True but when factoring in the higher crit chance critting more often expecially as a khajiit bumps up those critter houls quite a lot.
Before my houls critted for max 12k isch now my best hits are 18k. It feels alot more then 1.7% atm
Sure it's not the best choice but expecially when your getting chased and can mitigate all those projectiles by dodge rolling it's quite nice,it works. And as a nb medium Was the easiest choice in getting out some more damage since nb can afford it with their insane damage mitigation passive which is equal to almost 10k resistances.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=136052

You had a lot of odd buffs in there so I pulled them out for a base compare. Then rearranged the red cp, medium focus is pretty bad to invest in for what you get, better to invest in Physical % reduction, dot reduction, direct reduction, crit reduction, and light attack/heavy attack reduction. I swapped out a set but kept kept your overall build goal the same.

While major fracture is a solid debuff it wont help your bleed damage, it is also provided by many other attacks in the game and in larger fights most likely will be applied to your targets.

I swapped your medium set with Essence Thief. Essence Thief provides you with an extra 10% damage done (includes bleeds). And 800 stam recovery. Procs on your command and Imo it is the best medium armor set for pvp in the game. I've been running it on my wolves since the rework.

Here is your set up.


Here is the tweeked version


And a link to the load out https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=159293

Chrlynsch

Here is the original medium set up.



Here is a heavy set up with truth.

Chrlynsch

@IlCanis_LupuslI I just recreated your build on pts to test out the Khajiit vs orc damage. Found something interesting.

An orc will do more crit damage and more non crit damage than Khajiit.


Howl of Agony
Crit:
Orc: 24331
Khajiit: 24007

Non Crit
Orc: 14645
Khajiit: 13640

*Edit to show with weapon damage glyph proc.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

@IlCanis_LupuslI I just recreated your build on pts to test out the Khajiit vs orc damage. Found something interesting.

An orc will do more crit damage and more non crit damage than Khajiit.


Howl of Agony
Crit:
Orc: 24331
Khajiit: 24007

Non Crit
Orc: 14645
Khajiit: 13640

*Edit to show with weapon damage glyph proc.

True but the Khajiit has a bit better Sustain then the orc not to mention looking waaaaaay better ;-)

IlCanis_LupuslI

And the medium armor damage still feels a lot more then heavy. Plus Ive gotten used to be agile. Its nice^^ and it suits my playstyle. And because of the passives i can afford it^^

IlCanis_LupuslI

the same tooltip is because you sacreficed the mighty chudan on heavy armor to go slimecraw. I dont have to do that because i can rely on the relentless focus. I dont have to compensate damage on medium to get more survivability the relentless already provides that. And thats why I feel the damage difference more then you do i guess

IlCanis_LupuslI

Tooltip in medium of houl of my setup: 19.4k
tooltip in heavy same setup : 18.3k
without changing monster sets or anything literally just changing the armor from heavy to medium.
Thats 6% more damage vs 1.5k more hp and 5-6% more mitigation.....

Chrlynsch

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

True but the Khajiit has a bit better Sustain then the orc not to mention looking waaaaaay better ;-)

Doesn't care about extra damage. Or being more agile.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Tooltip in medium of houl of my setup: 19.4k
tooltip in heavy same setup : 18.3k
without changing monster sets or anything literally just changing the armor from heavy to medium.
Thats 6% more damage vs 1.5k more hp and 5-6% more mitigation.....

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And the medium armor damage still feels a lot more then heavy. Plus Ive gotten used to be agile. Its nice^^ and it suits my playstyle. And because of the passives i can afford it^^

Cares about doing more damage and being more agile.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Tooltip in medium of houl of my setup: 19.4k
tooltip in heavy same setup : 18.3k
Thats 6% more damage vs 1.5k more hp and 5-6% more mitigation.....

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Before my houls critted for max 12k isch now my best hits are 18k.

6% less damage is 17k not 12k

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

the same tooltip is because you sacreficed the mighty chudan on heavy armor to go slimecraw.

That's the point, in heavy you don't have to run a defensive set (Chudan). So in medium you have to sacrifice a damage set in order to get resistances that heavy offers passively. Heavy can run 2 offensive sets, and a sustain set. While offering more damage, more crit% (

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

True but when factoring in the higher crit chance critting more often expecially as a khajiit bumps up those critter houls quite a lot.

, with the same (if not better) sustain.

Plus if my target sustains a fracture bonus from somewhere else the heavy armor set up will do even more damage.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

True but the Khajiit has a bit better Sustain then the orc not to mention looking waaaaaay better ;-)

Doesn't care about extra damage. Or being more agile.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Tooltip in medium of houl of my setup: 19.4k
tooltip in heavy same setup : 18.3k
without changing monster sets or anything literally just changing the armor from heavy to medium.
Thats 6% more damage vs 1.5k more hp and 5-6% more mitigation.....

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And the medium armor damage still feels a lot more then heavy. Plus Ive gotten used to be agile. Its nice^^ and it suits my playstyle. And because of the passives i can afford it^^

Cares about doing more damage and being more agile.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Tooltip in medium of houl of my setup: 19.4k
tooltip in heavy same setup : 18.3k
Thats 6% more damage vs 1.5k more hp and 5-6% more mitigation.....

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Before my houls critted for max 12k isch now my best hits are 18k.

6% less damage is 17k not 12k

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

the same tooltip is because you sacreficed the mighty chudan on heavy armor to go slimecraw.

That's the point, in heavy you don't have to run a defensive set (Chudan). So in medium you have to sacrifice a damage set in order to get resistances that heavy offers passively. Heavy can run 2 offensive sets, and a sustain set. While offering more damage, more crit% (

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

True but when factoring in the higher crit chance critting more often expecially as a khajiit bumps up those critter houls quite a lot.

, with the same (if not better) sustain.

Plus if my target sustains a fracture bonus from somewhere else the heavy armor set up will do even more damage.

with me i have a race on a class and i make that work, not the other way around. And heavy roughly gives u 4k more resistances, mighty chudan gives you 8k so more bang for your buck to reach cap resistances in ww form even in medium and adding the -15% damage taken on top as a nice buffer.

i do care about damage and beeing faster(thats why i chose medium) but looking like the backside of a horse is definetly not worth it in my opinion.
Ive been a cat since oblivion, It has very good passives for hybridy builds and im not about to change it because of a periodically changing game meta.
The only difference between medium and heavy is weather you like standing in the first row brawling or relying on a more agility based gameplaying style(the tanky passives of HA force you to run damage sets, the damage passives force you to run tank sets in medium, at the end of the day its literally only what playstyle you prefer) .
I like medium, I like relying on my situational awareness and agility while having enough tankyness to get me out of most oh crap situations(unless the game crashes)and running circles around most of the HA builds i encounter. I actually love that gameplay style and its super fun in ww form aswell.
Im having way more fun on this setup in Cyrodiil then on any other heavy armor ww setup ive ever made and that says something.
And if it gets laggy i just play something else its that simple. Im having way more fun that way then adapting a build expecting something that a good Quality Control should spot in the first place(thank god pvp is running smooth as silk atm and pve is laggy af so im cool atm) .
And btw Orc passive: Skill.SprintSpeed = 10.0%
medium armor passive: 15%: Athletics 2 passive in Medium Armor Skills line (Skill.SprintSpeed)
basically on my cat in medium im still faster then a heavy armor orc
And about the wd the difference between a medium armor khajiit and a heavy armor or orc is about 10 Wd more (for the orc, about 8% less crit chance according to my calculator not to mention significantly higher ability costs so the orcs damage passive doesnt outshine medium at all. And sustain wise khajiit has way better passives then orc does.
again more bang for my buck.
And apart from Valkyn skoria(which was ruined last patch, maby zaan for 1vs1s) there arent any good monster sets which are worth wearing for me anyway instead of the mighty chudan(by chosing chudan over slimecraw you sacrefice 12% damage mitigation for 8% damage gain the tradeoff between medium and heavy is pretty much equal with my setup.. )

To summarize this: Between medium khajiit and heavy orc on a balanced out builde- -- - - --> no damage difference, no difference in tankyness (higher mitigation in medium, 1.5k higher hp in heavy depending on how many people that are trying to kill you its pretty much the same) , no difference in sustain.
It literally depends how you prefer playing. They balanced out medium armor quite well last patch and in human form shuffle mitigates stupid amounts of damage in this AoE Dump meta we are in.
Heavy armor can mitigate more damage, medium armor can evade damage way easier which comes in handy when you have 15 bloodthirsty people chasing you from BrK to Drake(real story).
Well and funny you mention it, i cant remember the last time i had someone else fracturing my targets for me so that doesnt work for me.

Chrlynsch

I'm going to quote the stuff that was relevant to our discussion.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

The tanky passives of HA force you to run damage sets, the damage passives force you to run tank sets in medium, at the end of the day its literally only what playstyle you prefer.

Heavy passives give you flat bonuses. And are static, regardless of what stats are on the set.

Medium passives are almost all %based so that means if you have to build specifically to increase stats like weapon damage and stamina regen before those passives start showing value. And not all of them even work in werewolf form.

So unless you start using more more than one damage set, medium will not produce more damage or better sustain than heavy.

That my point.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And btw Orc passive: Skill.SprintSpeed = 10.0%
medium armor passive: 15%: Athletics 2 passive in Medium Armor Skills line (Skill.SprintSpeed)
basically on my cat in medium im still faster then a heavy armor orc

The heavy orc is faster wearing 5 heavy, 2 Medium.
6+10= 16%

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

medium armor can evade damage way
easier

In werewolf form? How?

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Well and funny you mention it, I cant remember the last time i had someone else fracturing my targets for me so that doesnt work for me.

And what if you are attacking a target that is over the resistance cap? How much less effective is your fracture then?

IlCanis_LupuslI

Chrlynsch wrote: »

I'm going to quote the stuff that was relevant to our discussion.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

The tanky passives of HA force you to run damage sets, the damage passives force you to run tank sets in medium, at the end of the day its literally only what playstyle you prefer.

Heavy passives give you flat bonuses. And are static, regardless of what stats are on the set.

Medium passives are almost all %based so that means if you have to build specifically to increase stats like weapon damage and stamina regen before those passives start showing value. And not all of them even work in werewolf form.

So unless you start using more more than one damage set, medium will not produce more damage or better sustain than heavy.

That my point.

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

And btw Orc passive: Skill.SprintSpeed = 10.0%
medium armor passive: 15%: Athletics 2 passive in Medium Armor Skills line (Skill.SprintSpeed)
basically on my cat in medium im still faster then a heavy armor orc

The heavy orc is faster wearing 5 heavy, 2 Medium.
6+10= 16%

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

medium armor can evade damage way
easier

In werewolf form? How?

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Well and funny you mention it, I cant remember the last time i had someone else fracturing my targets for me so that doesnt work for me.

And what if you are attacking a target that is over the resistance cap? How much less effective is your fracture then?

Well someone would have to have 43k resistances for my penetration values to be completely negated. And whoever has those resistances is a full tank who isnt a threat anyway(yaaaaay free ult and resource return) So if heavy armor doesnt make me tankier then medium armor because i have to sacrifice a lot to get decent damage have way higher sprinting costs, something i do quite often tbh while outplaying those heavy armor dot builds you see everywhere without loosing a ton of sustain by beeing a orc not to mention looking way better as a khajiit, why on earth should i go heavy armor? to turn the question around. well i have the windrunner passive that plus 6 parts medium i could easily reach 20% increased movement speed tbh.
Well i havent had the feeling that im lacking any passive i should of the med armor skilline.And about the % well im lucky my nb passives and khajiit passives get amplified by the med armor passives so im fine. The most important passive the max hp one is % based aswell the constitution is dependent on how many pieces of ha you have on but still is a pity full amount unless your constantly taking damage something i try to avoid. Soo i dont really see what point your trying to make, all your arguments are a matter of perspective.
As i said it depends on what you prefer nowadays and how your character is setup. And my race+class plays perfectly into medium armor. Something i probably wouldnt do on a stamsorc orc.
And btw ive yet to see someone beeing able to outrun me while im kiting people around. I can get th