Earthgore is still overpowered in PvP

Synapsis123

The healing needs to be reduced or it should only effect one target. Everyone in zerg groups is wearing it.

Sixty5

I'd kinda prefer to see some sort of nerf that stops the set stacking.

Keep it strong, but actually make the cooldown meaningful.

Synapsis123

Problem is even if it didn't stack, one procs and then another procs after.

AddictionX

why are we allowed to stack multiple AoE's on top of one another?

React

Agreed that the healing needs to be reduced, at least to sone degree. Even with earth gore not eating multiple effects, fighting outnumbered vs this set is nearly impossible and makes larger groups that can afford to use it, practically unkillable. As a solo or small group player (4 or less) you don't get to make pushes that have the potential to drop groups health below 50% more than once every 30-45 seconds. You'll push, it'll proc and save everyone in it, you'll retreat to build ults and get buffs/potions up, you'll push and it will proc again. It's a completley free equivalent to a healing ultimate and it needs to be adjusted for the overall health of pvp.

coop500

If it gets basic nerfed it will become useless in solo or PVE play
Then again that won't be anything new

Kaysha

When every support char of a guild group has to wear the same monster set, you know that something is wrong.

KingExecration

I still enjoy that people defend something that lets groups of just underskilled players who did one run of the dungeon and trait changed it survive all types of ults and being entirely outplayed all because of everybody stacking one monster set.

P.s. earthgore healer lfg

Irylia

Earthgore still saving players.

You already have the benefit of numbers but that wasn’t enough.

Jhalin

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

xaraan

coop500 wrote: »

If it gets basic nerfed it will become useless in solo or PVE play
Then again that won't be anything new

Well, it could just give that big heal to one person and then clear one ground effect (like they have it now for ground effects). I mean, nerfing a set like Troll King one patch and then rolling out a set that gives 33K health to everyone in 3 seconds in an area of effect is kind of crazy.

Giving the heal to one person could still work as a life saver for everyone and make it less useful to run for zergs where they just have them going off constantly.

As for the group not having any damage helms as another poster said, big deal, most zergs don't do great damage anyway individually, it's just a numbers game to them. Heck, most of them will melt to groups a quarter their size, but just keep rezzing each other and zombie fighting endlessly until they wear the other side down. Healing like that can make those types of groups stronger than if they had damage sets on.

Synapsis123

Yeah basically what the above poster said. Groups of players who have no business winning fights are winning fights entirely because of this monster set.

Koolio

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

I have a lot that I can say to explain how deal with it doesn’t quite work but I will put it very simple.

Healer cast mutagen on two people in a group then stays inside a keep.

The two players join a group outside the door 10 secs later(healer still inside)

The group gets hit with 1 destro ultimate.Mutagen tick hits below 50%. The healer inside the keep saves the whole group gets rid of a Destro ult and never even looked/went outside.

When 1 hot tick can save multiple people from death it’s kinda hard to “Deal with”.

I still kill. I still earn Ap. But I wish I could kill a group from a monster set( only 2 pieces) without even having to fight anyone.

IAVITNI

Koolio wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

I have a lot that I can say to explain how deal with it doesn’t quite work but I will put it very simple.

Healer cast mutagen on two people in a group then stays inside a keep.

The two players join a group outside the door 10 secs later(healer still inside)

The group gets hit with 1 destro ultimate.Mutagen tick hits below 50%. The healer inside the keep saves the whole group gets rid of a Destro ult and never even looked/went outside.

When 1 hot tick can save multiple people from death it’s kinda hard to “Deal with”.

I still kill. I still earn Ap. But I wish I could kill a group from a monster set( only 2 pieces) without even having to fight anyone.

Definitely agree, but it's kind of hard to balance this set without gutting it. Considered several things, like reducing number of players healed to 4 but than it ruins it for trials (idk trial meta tbh but it should have some viability there regardless). Reduced stacking seems like a lot of (buggy) coding.

Best thing I could think of was backload the heal, like having it heal for 8k initially and for 24.7k after 2 seconds or increasing the duration to 5 seconds and have the heal scale up every second. For this to work best, the threshold would have to be lower in PvP (say 25%) but keep it at 50% in PvE

Feanor

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

That’s the point though. The heal is essentially 3 free BoLs for the whole raid in the vicinity. That’s a problem in PvE as well, and the set is used there to dispel mechanics (I read somewhere that it’s used for the Sun Eaters in MoL for example).

Granted, there are no good healing sets other than SPC, Worm and Sanctuary, and the healing monster sets are all bad (hello Bogdan the Nightflame).

But Earthgore is so absurdly overpowered not only because it does what it does, but also because of the lack of alternatives. It’s bad design, and therefore should be adjusted.

Jhalin

Feanor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

That’s the point though. The heal is essentially 3 free BoLs for the whole raid in the vicinity. That’s a problem in PvE as well, and the set is used there to dispel mechanics (I read somewhere that it’s used for the Sun Eaters in MoL for example).

Granted, there are no good healing sets other than SPC, Worm and Sanctuary, and the healing monster sets are all bad (hello Bogdan the Nightflame).

But Earthgore is so absurdly overpowered not only because it does what it does, but also because of the lack of alternatives. It’s bad design, and therefore should be adjusted.

Picking a monster helm that directly counters a mechanic? Oh the humanity!

It's the same thing as running Negate on a sorc for vMoL or vAA. You give up an ult slot to deal with a mechanic. You wear Earthgore to deal with a mechanic, and you can't run a second five-piece set.

We give something up to get something else.

It's not broken except in PvP, and if ZOS wants to stop zergs from heal spamming with it, then they can adjust the PvP buffs/debuffs to do it, not gut the thing so no one gets to use it.

Feanor

Jhalin wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

That’s the point though. The heal is essentially 3 free BoLs for the whole raid in the vicinity. That’s a problem in PvE as well, and the set is used there to dispel mechanics (I read somewhere that it’s used for the Sun Eaters in MoL for example).

Granted, there are no good healing sets other than SPC, Worm and Sanctuary, and the healing monster sets are all bad (hello Bogdan the Nightflame).

But Earthgore is so absurdly overpowered not only because it does what it does, but also because of the lack of alternatives. It’s bad design, and therefore should be adjusted.

Picking a monster helm that directly counters a mechanic? Oh the humanity!

It's the same thing as running Negate on a sorc for vMoL or vAA. You give up an ult slot to deal with a mechanic. You wear Earthgore to deal with a mechanic, and you can't run a second five-piece set.

We give something up to get something else.

It's not broken except in PvP, and if ZOS wants to stop zergs from heal spamming with it, then they can adjust the PvP buffs/debuffs to do it, not gut the thing so no one gets to use it.

Except the Sorc negate doesn’t heal an indefinite amount of players in the range for 30k over 3 seconds.

BohnT

@ZOS_Wrobel
The changes to Earthgore change nothing about the set being completely overperfoming.

The healing on most heal builds is somewhere at 9-12k heals in PvP per tick and there are 3 Ticks.
Everyone in the radius gets healed by atleast 30k over 3 seconds meaning in order to negate the healing you'd have to deal 10k Dps on everyone standing in the Earthgore radius. This is ridiculous it's an "I won't die Proc" and with the right group setup you can have a 70-80% uptime with ease.
Meaning that groups are completely immune to any damage for the most time of fights.

It's better to slot Earthgore on every DD that has some off heals than using any other set because keeping the group alive is more valuable than 2k more damage.

If you look at Earthgore everything is just ridiculous:
8m radius, 10k Aoe Hps, easy proc condition with no Rng attached, built-in ground AoE removal, even the high cooldown doesn't matter as you can completely negate is by simply get more people to use it.


The set needs the following changes:
Radius decreased to 4m
duration increased to 5 seconds
Overall healing reduced by 65%

Will this be the end for PvE usage? Most definitely, but in the end it doesn't matter, if something is overperfoming in PvP it completely destroys the game as long as the unbalance is in the game because everyone is using it then. In the case of Earthgore it means that people don't die and immortals are bad for a game where killing them is a key element to win.

A PvE equivalent would be that every boss simply one shots the whole group.
Imagine going into vSO and the mantikora decides to enrage at the beginning and then one shotting everyone or Ozara decides to simply pin the whole group instead of 4 at the same time.
No one could do PvE then how it's ment to be done and that is how PvP is when things are overperfoming.

A 16 man zerg utilising Earthgore will win every fight against a 16 man group that is not using Earthgore this is how broken it is

Kaysha

I can remember a fight at Faregyl Farm a few weeks ago, where there was one group of perhaps 15 ED players just standing at the flag and about 50 AD and 30 DC players bombarding them from opposite sides without being able to kill them.

Balanced!

ak_pvp

Revert the negate mechanic nerf so it is good vs aoe spam. Half the healing.

Vapirko

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

Lol. Don’t chime in on things you don’t understand. ZOS refuses to balance PvP and PvE separately, so here we are. Besides PvE groups got along just fine without this set, and since it’s a problem in PvP why should it not be changed? Just so some PvErs can have an extra set if they want it? PvE is the reason the giant sustain nerfs were made, which totally screwed PvP.

jakeedmundson

.

Vapirko wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

Lol. Don’t chime in on things you don’t understand. ZOS refuses to balance PvP and PvE separately, so here we are. Besides PvE groups got along just fine without this set, and since it’s a problem in PvP why should it not be changed? Just so some PvErs can have an extra set if they want it? PvE is the reason the giant sustain nerfs were made, which totally screwed PvP.

I'm not saying earthgore is perfect... lets just start with that.

BUT, healers need a good set to use. Why make ANY healing monster sets when you KNOW they will never be used in end game pve? Earthgore is a good start, but i think its the wrong direction. Its situational in vet trials (think stacking during the stone atro fight in vAA)
what they need to change earthgore to... is something similar to SPC/worm/mending 5 pc. make healers WANT to run it for a good group buff.
As of right now, i love running it on my tank when i pug vet dungeons (which are usually a nightmare for sustain/heals).

That being said... they just need to limit its healing in cyrodiil/BGs. Don't give it some stupid blanket nerf and ruin the set for both sides.

Qbiken

Feanor wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Shut up I'm tired of sets getting nerfed into uselessness because of PvP. That thing does nothing but heal and cleanse one ground AoE. If a whole zerg is running it then they have no damage helms. Deal with it.

That’s the point though. The heal is essentially 3 free BoLs for the whole raid in the vicinity. That’s a problem in PvE as well, and the set is used there to dispel mechanics (I read somewhere that it’s used for the Sun Eaters in MoL for example).

Granted, there are no good healing sets other than SPC, Worm and Sanctuary, and the healing monster sets are all bad (hello Bogdan the Nightflame).

But Earthgore is so absurdly overpowered not only because it does what it does, but also because of the lack of alternatives. It’s bad design, and therefore should be adjusted.

Don´t think Earthgore removes the negates in vMoL (at least last time I checked).

DeadlyRecluse

Honestly I'd like to see earthgore go live in the current state (negate-clear axed, heal untouched) and see how it feels before asking for more nerfs (and I HATE earthgore). See if it needs further adjustment after that.

It currently has about the same HPS potential over a proc window as Grothdar has for DPS.

Custos91

I use Earthgore on my stamina warden healbuild and a blanket nerf would severly limit the usefullness of this build, troll king and Sentinel are very situational in pve scenarios and most of the time not worth it (Blood spawn actually offers more group support... on a healer....)

BohnT

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I'd like to see earthgore go live in the current state (negate-clear axed, heal untouched) and see how it feels before asking for more nerfs (and I HATE earthgore). See if it needs further adjustment after that.

It currently has about the same HPS potential over a proc window as Grothdar has for DPS.

But it's burst it gives 10k hps. If the set gave 1k hps over 5 seconds it is no problem but the way it is now it's a problem.

PvP is about burst not sustained Dps/hps.

Anyone understanding how PvP works knows that the changes will be useless and the set remains as unbalanced as it is

Asgari

the negate was never the issue in the set .. the issue is the heal .. its an additional resto ult heal that can be warn by anyone and allows you to heal through any damage

pieratsos

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I'd like to see earthgore go live in the current state (negate-clear axed, heal untouched) and see how it feels before asking for more nerfs (and I HATE earthgore). See if it needs further adjustment after that.

It currently has about the same HPS potential over a proc window as Grothdar has for DPS.

The only difference is that Grothdar doesnt do 30k dmg over 3 seconds on everyone. If it was working like that, it would be the most busted set this game has ever seen. The long cd is irrelevant.

DeadlyRecluse

pieratsos wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I'd like to see earthgore go live in the current state (negate-clear axed, heal untouched) and see how it feels before asking for more nerfs (and I HATE earthgore). See if it needs further adjustment after that.

It currently has about the same HPS potential over a proc window as Grothdar has for DPS.

The only difference is that Grothdar doesnt do 30k dmg over 3 seconds on everyone. If it was working like that, it would be the most busted set this game has ever seen. The long cd is irrelevant.

No argument here.

...though I'd argue if Earthgore was changed to a "Healing grothdar" (lower overall numbers, follows the healer, higher uptime) it would also be thoroughly broken.

pieratsos

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly I'd like to see earthgore go live in the current state (negate-clear axed, heal untouched) and see how it feels before asking for more nerfs (and I HATE earthgore). See if it needs further adjustment after that.

It currently has about the same HPS potential over a proc window as Grothdar has for DPS.

The only difference is that Grothdar doesnt do 30k dmg over 3 seconds on everyone. If it was working like that, it would be the most busted set this game has ever seen. The long cd is irrelevant.

No argument here.

...though I'd argue if Earthgore was changed to a "Healing grothdar" (lower overall numbers, follows the healer, higher uptime) it would also be thoroughly broken.

I dont disagree with that either. Groups would stack them and they would literally be immune to death.

Feanor

Cross post from the PvP Combat and Skills section, as the set is discussed there too:

The healing is just simply absurd. Compare it to Chokethorn, the monster set that comes closest to Earthgore in terms of raw healing power.

(1 items) Adds 129 Magica Recovery

(2 items) When you use a heal ability, you have a 15% chance to summon a strangler sapling that heals you or an ally for 19565 Health over 4 seconds. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.

It’s 2/3 of the healing, spread out over 4 seconds, on a vastly lower proc chance, and most importantly, single target.

If you look for AoE heals, this was the only set before Earthgore:

(1 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka

(2 items) When you heal a friendly target, you have a 5% chance to summon a totem for 6 seconds that heals you and your allies in area for 3483 Health every 1 second. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

Right. Bogdan the Nightflame, a set that nobody ever wore. Compare it to this:

(1 items) Adds 2% Healing Done
(2 items) When you heal a friendly target that is under 50% Health you conjure a pool of quenching blood underneath them, which soaks up enemy placed effects instantly and heals all friendly targets in the area for 30000 Health over 3 seconds. This effect can occur once every 35 seconds.

Even if you take PvP out of the equation and just compare the available healing monster sets Earthgore has a power level never before seen in the game. And that’s why adjustments are warranted.