Can we talk about Destructive reach for a moment? (Flame clench, Shock clench etc)

xeNNNNN

Look, I get it - it does a nice amount of damage, its a consistent ability and its cheap and has a huge range but something seriously needs to be curbed with it.

I normally wouldn't complain but the more its used in PvP (EU) The more im realising that this ability has virtually no downsides.

The range is absurd and should be capped and the cost needs to be increased a decent amount. There needs too be a draw back apart from taking up a slot on your bar that actually impacts how much you use it because right now its worse than wardens spamming birds or Templar spamming Javelin. Its consistency is so good coupled with its half decent damage that you dont even need to care about CC immunity because you can just work spamming it into your rotation.

I dont want it removed its been here since launch really but I do want it nerfed a bit because its just obnoxious now. With the lag included in some situations due to it being so cheap and spammable its virtually impossible to break free or roll dodge it because its being spammed so much that you might as well just die on the spot. I've even seen whole zergs spaming it I mean its ridiculous.

It NEEDS a draw back and one that actually matters.

xeNNNNN

Additionally, Immo pots arent very helpful either again because of the spam. They help briefly but then the moment the pot is off, the moment your CC immunity is gone the moment you run out of stamina in that 30 second window after the pot or every 4 seconds, you're just dead. Its boring and frustrating and sad all at once.

ezeepeezee

I kind of feel this way about all of the ranged CCs. It's not very fair for melee oriented players to have to deal with this deluge of CCs before they ever get into range of opponents. It seems to me that it would be more balanced to have all CCs be shorter ranged ala Petrify (maybe a little longer range than that though). In my mind they are for defense - they're fine to use offensively, but there should be a trade off, not just "oh you eat my combo now hehe haha undodgeable unblockable stun 4 u"

Lexxypwns

Reach is expensive enough as to change the sustain needs of a build that is not using a masters destro

arkansas_ESO

It's a huge ball of fire coming at you from 36m away, just dodge

Zorgon_The_Revenged

I'm looking at the cost of destructive reach on a mag character with a reduce cost glyph and armor set, then looking at the cost of stamina abilities on the same character (no cost reductuction from passives etc) and a vast majority of the costs are already much lower.

It isn't a cheap skill, why increase the cost and punish someone who doesn't spam the skill? Javelin and birds also do more damage because reach has a DoT component to it, which is pretty much lost if it is spammed.

bardx86

xeNNNNN wrote: »

Look, I get it - it does a nice amount of damage, its a consistent ability and its cheap and has a huge range but something seriously needs to be curbed with it.

I normally wouldn't complain but the more its used in PvP (EU) The more im realising that this ability has virtually no downsides.

The range is absurd and should be capped and the cost needs to be increased a decent amount. There needs too be a draw back apart from taking up a slot on your bar that actually impacts how much you use it because right now its worse than wardens spamming birds or Templar spamming Javelin. Its consistency is so good coupled with its half decent damage that you dont even need to care about CC immunity because you can just work spamming it into your rotation.

I dont want it removed its been here since launch really but I do want it nerfed a bit because its just obnoxious now. With the lag included in some situations due to it being so cheap and spammable its virtually impossible to break free or roll dodge it because its being spammed so much that you might as well just die on the spot. I've even seen whole zergs spaming it I mean its ridiculous.

It NEEDS a draw back and one that actually matters.

Jesus, sorc's get nerfed into the ground. We have to change our build for the 1,000,000 time. We adapt and now its more cries for nerfing another skill. Come on man. It's telegraphed from 10 miles away. Its can be blocked and dodged. It cost a a lot. For it do any real damage a sorc has to build for it and at least in my case I give up healing ward.

Apherius

ezeepeezee wrote: »

I kind of feel this way about all of the ranged CCs. It's not very fair for melee oriented players to have to deal with this deluge of CCs before they ever get into range of opponents. It seems to me that it would be more balanced to have all CCs be shorter ranged ala Petrify (maybe a little longer range than that though). In my mind they are for defense - they're fine to use offensively, but there should be a trade off, not just "oh you eat my combo now hehe haha undodgeable unblockable stun 4 u"

You know that it's also the case for stamina combo ? CC(uppercut/fear/ect...) + Ultime (Dawnbreaker)+ proc for some (Subterranean assault) + Spammable(Uppercut, surprise attack,pierce armor,jabs) + finisher ( Wrecking blow ... killer's blade ...)
Some include Dot( Poison injection, Hurricane, Dawnbreaker dot)

i mean .. it's not just a " ranged thing " ... and they aren't for defense, who the hell want to use a skill just to prevent the ennemi to attack him during 1 sec ... this is the only way to kill Healbot, Shield spammer, S&B build, we need to prevent them to use their defense ... this or wait for them to use all their Magicka and stamina ... We could still kill the Shield stacking sorc because they have the worst sustain in the game, but we could not do anything against the rest.

ToRelax

It's blockeable (with projectile bonus), dodgeable, reflectable, and to make it deal decent damage at reasonable cost you need to give up a set piece. The fire version also hands out free cc immunity if you don't let yourself get burst down. The projectile speed is mediocre and the animation very obvious, especially on the range morph, which has standard range.
I'd say that's quite a lot of downsides, actually.

xeNNNNN

"its blockable" "its dodgable" etc


Yes I am fully aware of that but this games balance must also align itself with the state of the game as well. Sure its dodgable but when its so damned laggy all the time you can dodge one but then end up rolling into one that followed straight after, hense the problem with the spam.

"its blockable" exactly how much stamina do you think most have? because not only is it a pain for stam users (to which I am not one just FYI) it is also a massive frustration for other mag builds and I will not lower myself too using that ability. I will not join in on what I precieve to be a cancerous and obnoxious ability rotting PvP right now (along with other things of course).

but yes it is blockable but whats the point of blocking if you're just going to be spammed to death with it this isnt pre-morrowind anymore resources are a premium and if you build sustain in most cases you lose damage unless building in a very specific way and thats often not fun to do. DKs need to get in close to fossilize, Magblades need to run in close and stun with concealed weapon or tether or their ult. Sorcs typically have too streak on top of them. The list goes on. There are very few exceptions barring snipe/focused aim and jav (two abilities btw which I have a similar problem with, more so jav as its almost as bad).

Why should pvp just become a single ability spam fest? There is already too much CC in pvp something needs to take a hit and frankly as its the most used it should be targeted for a nerf due to it being so useful. Thats actually how balance works considering the ability itself is outpreforming most other mag based stuns (that are not ultimates).

xeNNNNN

ToRelax wrote: »

It's blockeable (with projectile bonus), dodgeable, reflectable, and to make it deal decent damage at reasonable cost you need to give up a set piece. The fire version also hands out free cc immunity if you don't let yourself get burst down. The projectile speed is mediocre and the animation very obvious, especially on the range morph, which has standard range.
I'd say that's quite a lot of downsides, actually.

That dont seem to matter at all. If it was as painful as you make it out to be it wouldn't be used. Again, It has downsides but non that seem to matter to stop it from being spammed so easily and getting a ton of damage out between each spam session. Its ridiculous.

Sixty5

Dude it's a 4k Magicka base cost skill that can be dodged and blocked.

It's used because Mag builds want a destro staff ability on their bar for tri focus, and given that it is the only one with CC, that is what most people go with.

Draxys

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dude it's a 4k Magicka base cost skill that can be dodged and blocked.

It's used because Mag builds want a destro staff ability on their bar for tri focus, and given that it is the only one with CC, that is what most people go with.

Ok, I can dodge and block lots of stuff, doesn’t mean they’re balanced.

An ability that has range, a stun and damage is too much in one ability. That’s the issue with most OP or close to it skills, like incap. There’s already a spammable destro damaging skill, so I think clench should be focused on the CC aspect.

Elong

When someone compares this to bird spam you know you can't take the rest of the thread seriously.

Sixty5

Draxys wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dude it's a 4k Magicka base cost skill that can be dodged and blocked.

It's used because Mag builds want a destro staff ability on their bar for tri focus, and given that it is the only one with CC, that is what most people go with.

Ok, I can dodge and block lots of stuff, doesn’t mean they’re balanced.

An ability that has range, a stun and damage is too much in one ability. That’s the issue with most OP or close to it skills, like incap. There’s already a spammable destro damaging skill, so I think clench should be focused on the CC aspect.

Then obviously DK needs to have Stonefist nerfed, because the ability is ranged, deals damage and has a stun, it even has a lower Magicka cost and grants more physical resistance on hit too.

Same thing goes for Javelin for Templar.

Draxys

Sixty5 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Dude it's a 4k Magicka base cost skill that can be dodged and blocked.

It's used because Mag builds want a destro staff ability on their bar for tri focus, and given that it is the only one with CC, that is what most people go with.

Ok, I can dodge and block lots of stuff, doesn’t mean they’re balanced.

An ability that has range, a stun and damage is too much in one ability. That’s the issue with most OP or close to it skills, like incap. There’s already a spammable destro damaging skill, so I think clench should be focused on the CC aspect.

Then obviously DK needs to have Stonefist nerfed, because the ability is ranged, deals damage and has a stun, it even has a lower Magicka cost and grants more physical resistance on hit too.

Same thing goes for Javelin for Templar.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree, even though stonefist, with all those extra effects, inexplicably still manages to be underwhelming somehow.

Joy_Division

This is the first nerf Destro Reach thread I've seen in 4 years.

This skill is pure PvP niche because it's too expensive, doesn;t do enough damage, and a too weak DoT such that it has never been used by PvE DPS ever. Even with a Master Staff it's still not good enough to even make a rotation.

No Downsides? Too expensive, reflectable, dodgeable, is horribly Vs someone with CC immunity, needs a PvE end-game staff just not to even approach efficiency.

Yeah, people spam this all the time at me and it's at most a minor annoyance. The Ice version is actually somewhat decent but most people are so enthralled with "OMG moar damage!" it hardly ever gets used.

heystreethawk

It's an expensive skill that does very little damage; the fire version is basically just giving your enemy free CC immunity.

geonsocal

need the range - perfect skill for knocking other players through the grates over the keep/outspost front doors...

technohic

This forum explains why there’s so much cheese in game. So much whine

RinaldoGandolphi

We are talking about nerfing Destructive Reach now?

This skill might be annoying, but its not exactly setting the world on fire. Ask any Sorc if they would rather have the CC back on their Frags over Flame Reach.

Flame Reach can be dodged, blocked, absorbed, reflected, and spamming it makes the DOT part of it not work as it keeps getting reset.

I'd be far more concerned with all the archers now hiding spamming Lethal Arrow. Lethal Arrow that has a far greater range, can stun from stealth, 100% procs poisoned status, and Defiles healing by 30% on top of high damage...next patch without Miat's add on Lethal Arrow spam will be EVERYWHERE...you won't be able to have a single fight without someone spamming Lethal Arrows, and Lethal Arrow is FAR FAR more dangerous then Desto touch ever will be.

Jsmalls

Only reason you are seeing it is because they removed CCs from frags...

That being said, the entire Destruction staff skill lines is garbage in PvP. Crushing shock is bearable for the interrupt... But it's damage is lack luster, what 3k damage against a decent opponent. That's certainly not doing anything... Flame reach is a CC first and a damage ability second, maybe coupled with the Masters staff it's making the skill even semi worth the slot, but you're talking about 2k damage for a turn cool down. My streak does more damage and is an AoE CC...

Everything else in that tree is not worth a bar slot in PvP.

Wrecking blow does considerable damage combined with the same CC, and let's not pretend it's hard to be in melee range because this game caters to Gap closer spam, and animation cancelled heavy attack weaves with melee abilities.

Flame clench being OP... Skill hasn't changed since release, and if you said that a couple updates ago you'd be laughed out of the forums.

The whole Destruction staff skill lines needs a rework, it's to the point I don't take advantage of the 8% single Target damage because none of those abilities are worth a slot on my bars...

NyassaV

These people are generally using a master's destro staff because it makes the skill a viable spamable and is cheaper than forcepulse

Zer0oo

Every knockback ability is annoying if spammed from the back of a zerg(looks at Javelin) but flame reach is a terrible skill that only is worth using if you have the master destro.

AardvarkChips

Jesus, sorc's get nerfed into the ground. We have to change our build for the 1,000,000 time. We adapt and now its more cries for nerfing another skill. Come on man. It's telegraphed from 10 miles away. Its can be blocked and dodged. It cost a a lot. For it do any real damage a sorc has to build for it and at least in my case I give up healing ward. [/quote]

And it's already been nerfed, to the point of near uselessness. It used to knock back and stun. Now they bounce right back to their feet, but it's the same old story. Somebody in PvP doesn't like it, and everybody gets screwed.

Minalan

So... you probably whined about crystal frags until ZOS nerfed the stun on it.

Thus leaving Sorcs with just one good CC ability, and you want THAT nerfed too?

NO! Learn how to dodge, block, reflect, and gap-close. All four of those are available to every class. If you’re a nightblade you can cloak too.

And you think it hits hard? It actually does less damage than force pulse FFS.

Can we talk about the number of snares in this game instead?

ToRelax

Jsmalls wrote: »

Only reason you are seeing it is because they removed CCs from frags...

That being said, the entire Destruction staff skill lines is garbage in PvP. Crushing shock is bearable for the interrupt... But it's damage is lack luster, what 3k damage against a decent opponent. That's certainly not doing anything... Flame reach is a CC first and a damage ability second, maybe coupled with the Masters staff it's making the skill even semi worth the slot, but you're talking about 2k damage for a turn cool down. My streak does more damage and is an AoE CC...

Everything else in that tree is not worth a bar slot in PvP.

Wrecking blow does considerable damage combined with the same CC, and let's not pretend it's hard to be in melee range because this game caters to Gap closer spam, and animation cancelled heavy attack weaves with melee abilities.

Flame clench being OP... Skill hasn't changed since release, and if you said that a couple updates ago you'd be laughed out of the forums.

The whole Destruction staff skill lines needs a rework, it's to the point I don't take advantage of the 8% single Target damage because none of those abilities are worth a slot on my bars...

Actually it was changed when they introduced the DoT... and decided to gut Flame Clench in the process, which had a knockback + stun.

Kram8ion

What the hell? it can be blocked reflected and dodged it's expensive it's damage is poor and if it didn't have the knock back it would be useless stop asking for nerfs that are clearly unwarranted or you died from

Derra

xeNNNNN wrote: »

It NEEDS a draw back and one that actually matters.

First of all: You can block or dodge it.

Second: If you want it to deal considerable dmg at reasonable cost you have to equip a masterstaff with it.There you have it - that is a considerable downside to using it as it drastically reduces gear choices.

Also:

Mazbt

I get it...it's an annoying ability when someone is hiding in a zerg spamming it on you. I sympathize really I do. But it's not worth a nerf...annoying ability but damage is weak, and in my experience gets dodged/misses quite often.

Subversus

LOL this is a first