Cliff Racer Needs Adjustment

ToRelax

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

This got brought up 9-10 months ago during the Morrowind PTS. I'm sorry, but they just don't care.

Just play a tank if you want to survive. Avoid medium armour builds relying on roll dodge, unless you can cloak (in other words, unless you're a stamblade).

Who would've thought a ranged undodgeable surprise attack would be broken? Oh well, at least the animation looks pretty, right?

suprise attack? more like a ranged no-cast undodgeable dizzy swing
Average suprise attack hits me for 3k to 5k(in the most extreme case). magwardens do around 4-9k. I guess range scaling makes a difference.

It deals slightly more damage than Surprise Attack/Concealed weapon with the same stats and get's up to 15% bonus from range, whereas Surprise Attack applies resistance debuff. Uppercut deals significantly more.
I get hit hard by either in light armor, but someone actually spamming birds might build for it more because they know it's less easy to counter.

Maura_Neysa

Devilhand wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Going by the 3 hits from Vanilla Ice. Not wearing Impen so you got hit by a 7k crit. And the last attack did more damage than the first, which means running away.

The simple way to beat a mag warden is rush them and block the cliff racers. Most cliff racer spammers are inexperienced light armor wearing mag wardens who are easily destroyed if you put pressure on them.

Bro, I have 3k impen and 25k resistances. And got hit by 7k Cliff racer from 35m away.
The skill just needs a nerf of somekind.

Undodgeable, instant cast, 41m range, low cost... Its worse then sorc frag in every sense.

Its range is 28 meters, 32 with passive and 39 IF your in Propelling Shield. Can't go nerfing Warden damage until they are no longer THE LOWEST DPS class.

Edziu

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Going by the 3 hits from Vanilla Ice. Not wearing Impen so you got hit by a 7k crit. And the last attack did more damage than the first, which means running away.

The simple way to beat a mag warden is rush them and block the cliff racers. Most cliff racer spammers are inexperienced light armor wearing mag wardens who are easily destroyed if you put pressure on them.

Bro, I have 3k impen and 25k resistances. And got hit by 7k Cliff racer from 35m away.
The skill just needs a nerf of somekind.

Undodgeable, instant cast, 41m range, low cost... Its worse then sorc frag in every sense.

Its range is 28 meters, 32 with passive and 39 IF your in Propelling Shield. Can't go nerfing Warden damage until they are no longer THE LOWEST DPS class.

I dont want to mention how always was this one THE WORST DPS CLASS which was hardly able to do any even easy content!
sorry but unltil warden can be on tank or heal instead of dk, templar then I have just in ass his dps while I remember every class except sorc had times where in overall had over year of uselessness to do anything, not only dps (sorc had just few months of uselessness)

sorry but also I remember how for example nb was big *** in those times, like on trial leaderboards while other classes like sorc, templar was 200-400 and nb was less than 20 on them so sorry about your warden but if you want nice dps then ZOS should nerf his tankness or healing because this could be really big p2w as class jack of all trades and master of all while every other class is the best only at 1 with more rare at 2 things while opn 3rd is just the worst

simple tradeoff, you want dps on warden - nerf his tanking or healing because no any other class is able to do those 3 things the best

Vapirko

The only people who don’t die to bird spam are people who huddle in giant groups and spam birds.

clocksstoppe

Will never get nerfed warden is their p2w class that boosts morrowind sales

ak_pvp

Cliff racer hits like a ranged live powerlash. If that got the rightful undodgable treatment, then so should bird.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

Just going to throw this out there but.....making the attack dodgable effects PvE how? Rhetorical question as well know the answer is it doesn’t affect anything at all. Making it dodgable doesn’t mean less DPS or more DPS in PvE. So why would making it dodgable a DPS loss in PvE and have any bearing on PvE players want a buff and PvP players want it nerfed?

deepseamk20b14_ESO

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

For PvP we only need to make the bird doggeable and reflectable, that change have literally 0 effect on PvE, PvP combat is far more complex and is not just a matter of who can get higher DPS parses, so a nerf in PvP wouldn't necessarily affect the DPS output.

And Healing thicket nerf was very related to PvE, people were skipping bosses mechanics with the absurd healing output that healing thicket used to have.

Birds would have to be faster if they were to be dodgeable and reflectable

Ever play a mageblade? If a mageblade can use funnel health or crippling grasp effectively I’m pretty sure a warden should be able to figure out how to make slow projectiles work lol.

callen4492

Rickter wrote: »

I'm sure there is a thread floating around that'ss similar, but with the recent MagDK changes in that Power Lash with be dodgeable, it's time we took a look at a similar, if not more effective dmg ability by our good friend, the Warden.

Please reference:

disclaimer: this screenshot was taken from the perspective of a medium armor wearer.

The lack of Warden mention in the PTS patch notes is becoming disheartening as I know the community has raised alarm and called foul on this.

What's the problem? its a ranged, undodgeable, 1 sec cooldown, 5k+ dmg, spammable.

Enough is enough, we deserve better.

Hahahahahahaha, these nerf warden posts are funny. Cliff Racers isn't even used by most stam wardens. The VAST MAJORITY use uppercut as their spammable. SO WHY DON'T WE NERF UPPERCUT?! And, warden is a underused class, even considering you have to have the dlc to use it. AND it's very underused by the best players in dueling tournaments. So I don't think it needs to be nerfed at all really. I haven't had much trouble with them.

It has a few notable skills (cliff racer, shim shield and Sub Assault) that everyone complains about and it makes me laugh. EVERY CLASS HAS SKILLS THAT ARE JUST AS "OP". They're what make people use them. Nerf the wardens notable skills and you'll just have a class that's unused in PVP as well as PvE.

Ultimate_Overlord

Can people stop suggesting a speed increase on birds while making them dodgable? That would actually hurt the skill. In open world pvp magicka wardens often use crushing shock as their spammable, bird is a delayed burst skill. Just making cliff racer dodgable will still keep its function as a burst skill and you will still be able to land it if you time magicka shalk cc correctly (will be hard to land as stam warden but those need a greater nerf than magicka and most dont use birds anyway). Just doing that without making any other changes (maybe a tiny bit of extra dmg for pveers) would nerf the indodgable zerg spam while keeping wardens unique burst.

SodanTok

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Can people stop suggesting a speed increase on birds while making them dodgable? That would actually hurt the skill. In open world pvp magicka wardens often use crushing shock as their spammable, bird is a delayed burst skill. Just making cliff racer dodgable will still keep its function as a burst skill and you will still be able to land it if you time magicka shalk cc correctly (will be hard to land as stam warden but those need a greater nerf than magicka and most dont use birds anyway). Just doing that without making any other changes (maybe a tiny bit of extra dmg for pveers) would nerf the indodgable zerg spam while keeping wardens unique burst.

Sounds like the issue is bird can be considered delayed burst skill, when it is supposed to be the spammable.
If cliff racer becomes dodgeable without any change, nobody will even touch cutting dive.

Not that this theoretical discussion matters. People thinking ZoS will make cliff racer dodgeable before even trying any other changes (like damage nerf) are living in some alternative reality.

Hutch679

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

Can people stop suggesting a speed increase on birds while making them dodgable? That would actually hurt the skill. In open world pvp magicka wardens often use crushing shock as their spammable, bird is a delayed burst skill. Just making cliff racer dodgable will still keep its function as a burst skill and you will still be able to land it if you time magicka shalk cc correctly (will be hard to land as stam warden but those need a greater nerf than magicka and most dont use birds anyway). Just doing that without making any other changes (maybe a tiny bit of extra dmg for pveers) would nerf the indodgable zerg spam while keeping wardens unique burst.

If they make it dodgable, it should get a 20% damage increase. The whole point of it being an unsolvable projectile was to give wardens their own nitch. Now dodge roll stam players wanna give their biased opinions as to why it should be nerfed and ruin the warden class. Smh.. what a shame.

Knootewoot

NOOOOO

At least not until i leveled my bird spamming stamward.

Lexxypwns

New damage record alert! Hit a 11,098 damage racer on someone last night

Feanor

Lexxypwns wrote: »

New damage record alert! Hit a 11,098 damage racer on someone last night

Inb4 “dude sure didn’t run any impen” comments.

Hutch679

Dude didn't run any impen.... ahhh rats! Beat me to it.

Maura_Neysa

Edziu wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Going by the 3 hits from Vanilla Ice. Not wearing Impen so you got hit by a 7k crit. And the last attack did more damage than the first, which means running away.

The simple way to beat a mag warden is rush them and block the cliff racers. Most cliff racer spammers are inexperienced light armor wearing mag wardens who are easily destroyed if you put pressure on them.

Bro, I have 3k impen and 25k resistances. And got hit by 7k Cliff racer from 35m away.
The skill just needs a nerf of somekind.

Undodgeable, instant cast, 41m range, low cost... Its worse then sorc frag in every sense.

Its range is 28 meters, 32 with passive and 39 IF your in Propelling Shield. Can't go nerfing Warden damage until they are no longer THE LOWEST DPS class.

I dont want to mention how always was this one THE WORST DPS CLASS which was hardly able to do any even easy content!
sorry but unltil warden can be on tank or heal instead of dk, templar then I have just in ass his dps while I remember every class except sorc had times where in overall had over year of uselessness to do anything, not only dps (sorc had just few months of uselessness)

sorry but also I remember how for example nb was big *** in those times, like on trial leaderboards while other classes like sorc, templar was 200-400 and nb was less than 20 on them so sorry about your warden but if you want nice dps then ZOS should nerf his tankness or healing because this could be really big p2w as class jack of all trades and master of all while every other class is the best only at 1 with more rare at 2 things while opn 3rd is just the worst

simple tradeoff, you want dps on warden - nerf his tanking or healing because no any other class is able to do those 3 things the best

Okay this was a somewhat hard read, but if I understood you right...
DK are BiS tank and stamina DK are monster DPS.
My Magden has healed vMaz hard mode while being DPS specked, so they can heal
Sure DK and Templar do it better, I don't think a Warden should be able to out perform them. The Warden seems to be designed around being a jack-of-all master-of-none. For the most part this is true, but with DPS it isn't just that they are in last place, its that they are in last place by at least 10k DPS AND people are crying nerf to 2 of their 4 DPS skills. They need an overall DPS buff before/with any individual skill nerf, just to stay in last place.

ChunkyCat

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

noone should ever die to a spammed ability - Spamming is not effective in this game (at least if your opponent can handle himself...). A skilled warden doesn't spam birds either. It is weaved in a rotation. So first of all you didn't face a skilled opponent.
There remains basically one reason why you died there: You weren't paying attention - Not going defensive (going out of line of sight?, blocking?!, shielding?). The fact that the player hit you with almost always the same dmg value tells me that you didn't block a single of these cliff racers...
I mean seriously guys. Stop coming to forum to cry for nerfs if the solution is to use your brain... cliffracer is undodgable? some scrub is spamming it on you? easy: simply block it/ shield it and apply counter pressure with dots and timed burst.
It is an ability that is clearly visible and good to react to. But if people keep dodge rolling like maniacs even so they know the used ability is undodgeable... its a learn to play issue.
So please guys... Stop coming to forum crying for nerfs when even the photo proof shows nothing more than the OP's failure to react to the attacker AT ALL...

And no, I am not trolling or trying to be arrogant but all the "fast" complaints by people brought our pvp combat meta to the bad spot we are in today. Because ZOS simply applies nerfs according to outcry. Less asking for nerfs, more brain! If you don't know how to react to birds. Ask for help on forums. But don't cry for nerfs as first step...

Are you serious? Here is an easy scenario for what could happen;

Fighting another opponent or multiple opponents and some mag warden just spams birds in the background. Literally happened to me all night last night when 1vXing and if I didn't try to kill the warden first after figuring out where the *** he was then I was ***.

You said it yourself: focus the warden first. Its part of small scale to chose priority targets. Warden's offense has been designed to be mainly a hard counter to stam blades defense, while his defense is a hard counter to magsorcs offense. In the first place I have been talking about a 1v1 scenario which was suggested by the posted screenshot which only showed dmg attacks of one player. Ofc wardens hard counter gets a lot harder to deal with when fighting multiple opponents. But you basically said it yourself: Adapt to the fight and attack the warden first.
There will always be fights where you are up against enemies whomes skills are designed to hard counter your gameplay. Its not like warden is the first class to offer such skills. Just some examples: Templars Purifying Ritual: Cancer for DKs who work with DoT pressure. Mag Sorcs Curse: Cancer for NB which tries to cloak away. NBs fear breaking permablock or defense of any class and permablocking. So cliff racer, as undodgable skill, counters medium armor users (only really meta for stam blades). So if you look at it like that? Is the skill really OP? I don't think so. What I demanded in my post is that people should first start to think about what they can do better before crying out loud on forums and demanding nerfs. IMO is legitimate that wardens offensive skill is designed to hard counter medium armor builds and thereby its normal that this skill will appear on your death recap if running such a build.
I played many different classes in small scale. StamNB for the longest time. I don't think a skill is broken just because it has been designed to *** up my specific defense - Sometimes you just gotta lose.

Except warden is also the single most survivable class in pvp, if you focus him and don't get a quick kill then his group will already have pushed you to the point that the warden can dominate you with the undodgeable combo of fissure+birds and you'll have played right into his hands by getting yourself into a range where he can much more easily aim fissure. You're forced to dodge to avoid the damage the other players are putting on you and while you're doing that the warden is delivering 10k+ damage to you mid roll.

The best counter to birds as a medium build is to disengage the fight.

This is the real issue of it. People who play this game aren’t brain dead morons. People know you can block the bird spam.

But blocking a bird isn’t going to help when there’s two or even just one more opponent attacking you. It’s either stand there and die fighting, or do your best to disengage.

Cliff racer prevents you from disengaging because it’s undodgeable.

By themselves, wardens are manageable. In group, their survivability and undodgeable attacks make them pretty over powered.

TequilaFire

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

ThulsaDoomDC wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

noone should ever die to a spammed ability - Spamming is not effective in this game (at least if your opponent can handle himself...). A skilled warden doesn't spam birds either. It is weaved in a rotation. So first of all you didn't face a skilled opponent.
There remains basically one reason why you died there: You weren't paying attention - Not going defensive (going out of line of sight?, blocking?!, shielding?). The fact that the player hit you with almost always the same dmg value tells me that you didn't block a single of these cliff racers...
I mean seriously guys. Stop coming to forum to cry for nerfs if the solution is to use your brain... cliffracer is undodgable? some scrub is spamming it on you? easy: simply block it/ shield it and apply counter pressure with dots and timed burst.
It is an ability that is clearly visible and good to react to. But if people keep dodge rolling like maniacs even so they know the used ability is undodgeable... its a learn to play issue.
So please guys... Stop coming to forum crying for nerfs when even the photo proof shows nothing more than the OP's failure to react to the attacker AT ALL...

And no, I am not trolling or trying to be arrogant but all the "fast" complaints by people brought our pvp combat meta to the bad spot we are in today. Because ZOS simply applies nerfs according to outcry. Less asking for nerfs, more brain! If you don't know how to react to birds. Ask for help on forums. But don't cry for nerfs as first step...

Are you serious? Here is an easy scenario for what could happen;

Fighting another opponent or multiple opponents and some mag warden just spams birds in the background. Literally happened to me all night last night when 1vXing and if I didn't try to kill the warden first after figuring out where the *** he was then I was ***.

You said it yourself: focus the warden first. Its part of small scale to chose priority targets. Warden's offense has been designed to be mainly a hard counter to stam blades defense, while his defense is a hard counter to magsorcs offense. In the first place I have been talking about a 1v1 scenario which was suggested by the posted screenshot which only showed dmg attacks of one player. Ofc wardens hard counter gets a lot harder to deal with when fighting multiple opponents. But you basically said it yourself: Adapt to the fight and attack the warden first.
There will always be fights where you are up against enemies whomes skills are designed to hard counter your gameplay. Its not like warden is the first class to offer such skills. Just some examples: Templars Purifying Ritual: Cancer for DKs who work with DoT pressure. Mag Sorcs Curse: Cancer for NB which tries to cloak away. NBs fear breaking permablock or defense of any class and permablocking. So cliff racer, as undodgable skill, counters medium armor users (only really meta for stam blades). So if you look at it like that? Is the skill really OP? I don't think so. What I demanded in my post is that people should first start to think about what they can do better before crying out loud on forums and demanding nerfs. IMO is legitimate that wardens offensive skill is designed to hard counter medium armor builds and thereby its normal that this skill will appear on your death recap if running such a build.
I played many different classes in small scale. StamNB for the longest time. I don't think a skill is broken just because it has been designed to *** up my specific defense - Sometimes you just gotta lose.

Except warden is also the single most survivable class in pvp, if you focus him and don't get a quick kill then his group will already have pushed you to the point that the warden can dominate you with the undodgeable combo of fissure+birds and you'll have played right into his hands by getting yourself into a range where he can much more easily aim fissure. You're forced to dodge to avoid the damage the other players are putting on you and while you're doing that the warden is delivering 10k+ damage to you mid roll.

The best counter to birds as a medium build is to disengage the fight.

This is the real issue of it. People who play this game aren’t brain dead morons. People know you can block the bird spam.

But blocking a bird isn’t going to help when there’s two or even just one more opponent attacking you. It’s either stand there and die fighting, or do your best to disengage.

Cliff racer prevents you from disengaging because it’s undodgeable.

By themselves, wardens are manageable. In group, they’re survivability and undodgeable attacks make them pretty over powered.

True but this is an MMO and you are also supposed to be playing in a group to offset that not trying to play superman 1vX.

ChunkyCat

^ Ok. Just don’t venture out of the safe zone until Im in a group.

Got it.

Edziu

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

Going by the 3 hits from Vanilla Ice. Not wearing Impen so you got hit by a 7k crit. And the last attack did more damage than the first, which means running away.

The simple way to beat a mag warden is rush them and block the cliff racers. Most cliff racer spammers are inexperienced light armor wearing mag wardens who are easily destroyed if you put pressure on them.

Bro, I have 3k impen and 25k resistances. And got hit by 7k Cliff racer from 35m away.
The skill just needs a nerf of somekind.

Undodgeable, instant cast, 41m range, low cost... Its worse then sorc frag in every sense.

Its range is 28 meters, 32 with passive and 39 IF your in Propelling Shield. Can't go nerfing Warden damage until they are no longer THE LOWEST DPS class.

I dont want to mention how always was this one THE WORST DPS CLASS which was hardly able to do any even easy content!
sorry but unltil warden can be on tank or heal instead of dk, templar then I have just in ass his dps while I remember every class except sorc had times where in overall had over year of uselessness to do anything, not only dps (sorc had just few months of uselessness)

sorry but also I remember how for example nb was big *** in those times, like on trial leaderboards while other classes like sorc, templar was 200-400 and nb was less than 20 on them so sorry about your warden but if you want nice dps then ZOS should nerf his tankness or healing because this could be really big p2w as class jack of all trades and master of all while every other class is the best only at 1 with more rare at 2 things while opn 3rd is just the worst

simple tradeoff, you want dps on warden - nerf his tanking or healing because no any other class is able to do those 3 things the best

Okay this was a somewhat hard read, but if I understood you right...
DK are BiS tank and stamina DK are monster DPS.
My Magden has healed vMaz hard mode while being DPS specked, so they can heal
Sure DK and Templar do it better, I don't think a Warden should be able to out perform them. The Warden seems to be designed around being a jack-of-all master-of-none. For the most part this is true, but with DPS it isn't just that they are in last place, its that they are in last place by at least 10k DPS AND people are crying nerf to 2 of their 4 DPS skills. They need an overall DPS buff before/with any individual skill nerf, just to stay in last place.

mostly yes on start
but at your end problem is here as ZO$ nerfed templar heals and dk mainly in sustain with surviv because of warden to promote it...and here warden mostly can be on par with dk tanking and templar healing because of ZO$
as about "jack-of-all master-of-none" nb was called that just before morrowind and be very very long time as nb have tools to do everything but is just *** in everything, atlest it was befroe morrowind where now nb can shine with dps just because of his sutain in fight better than other classes

but as I knnow and see warden isnt jack-of-all master-of-none, he is can say mayne not fulll but almsot master of tanking and healing while have bad spot with dps
so now if people want warden do good in dps then wee need to nerf so much his healing or tanking because as I wrote if he is almsot master of taking and healing then it would be pathetic from ZO$ side to make him also viable with very high dps and here it will be 100% p2w because it will be the only class with jack-of-all master-of-all

SodanTok

SodanTok wrote: »

Not that this theoretical discussion matters. People thinking ZoS will make cliff racer dodgeable before even trying any other changes (like damage nerf) are living in some alternative reality.

xD


Time to drop dodgeable bird of 3k damage from stamina warden

Minno

SodanTok wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Not that this theoretical discussion matters. People thinking ZoS will make cliff racer dodgeable before even trying any other changes (like damage nerf) are living in some alternative reality.

xD


Time to drop dodgeable bird of 3k damage from stamina warden

"Dive: The damage from this ability and its morphs can now be dodged."

lol YAY!

Ragnarock41

well, we won. no more ''Press this to do damage over range no matter what'' button for wardens.

TequilaFire

Now it is dodge/shuffle's time for a nerf as well or there will be nothing but Sonic and Tails in game.

OdinForge

@Rickter is the hero of the Dragon Bones patch.

Chilly-McFreeze

Good riddance. This was long overdue.

And now we can focus on buffing their pve dps potential.

ak_pvp

WTB Bird reflect/deflect.

Give me a giant dragon wing and I could probably 1v1 the heck out of a pigeon.

Drakkdjinn

Azurya wrote: »

Let´s talk about the reality:
- how long does it take to get killquests done?:
- 20 sorceres: 10 Minutes
- 20 enemy players: 5 minutes
- 20 nightblades: 12 minutes
- 20 templars: 15 minutes
- 20 dragonknights: 17 minutes
- 20 wardens: 75 minutes!!!
average of last 3 months, VIVEC-EU-PC)

and now tell me what is your problem?
ah, you just ran into the one and only grp of 2 wardens lvling their alts in cyro!, LoL

The Warden quest was bugged for several months, try again.

BroanBeast1215

TequilaFire wrote: »

Now it is dodge/shuffle's time for a nerf as well or there will be nothing but Sonic and Tails in game.

*** off lol