Cliff Racer Needs Adjustment

ShadeSeph

They are not going to nerf warden in any way simply because it's behind a pay wall! It will continue to get buffed to persuade people to buy it... PERIOD! ! !

Hurtfan

PlagueSD wrote: »

Hurtfan wrote: »

You can see the frag floating in the air above the casters hands before it's projected, while the hands are flailing around. And you can hear it too, while it's ramping up...

nobody casts Crystal Frag in PvP or PvE. They should be procing the insta-cast.

Are you talking animation cancelling? I can get it to work a lot of the time but I'm not l33t I guess and can't get it to work 100% of the time.

Point still stands though, you can dodge frags standing still...

Waffennacht

Hollery wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

So you only play one part of the game. Noted, moving on!

I've been hit with 7k cliffracers to it really needs changing

This is horrid logic.

Then surprise attack
Frag
Merciless resolve
Whip
Jabs
Curse
...ok any ability that's s used in PvP falls into this category

technohic

Just make it interruptable. With the new system; it’s not too big of a nerf yet a counter. Still; it is an X v 1 skill.

Venom4You

Edziu wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

noone should ever die to a spammed ability - Spamming is not effective in this game (at least if your opponent can handle himself...). A skilled warden doesn't spam birds either. It is weaved in a rotation. So first of all you didn't face a skilled opponent.
There remains basically one reason why you died there: You weren't paying attention - Not going defensive (going out of line of sight?, blocking?!, shielding?). The fact that the player hit you with almost always the same dmg value tells me that you didn't block a single of these cliff racers...
I mean seriously guys. Stop coming to forum to cry for nerfs if the solution is to use your brain... cliffracer is undodgable? some scrub is spamming it on you? easy: simply block it/ shield it and apply counter pressure with dots and timed burst.
It is an ability that is clearly visible and good to react to. But if people keep dodge rolling like maniacs even so they know the used ability is undodgeable... its a learn to play issue.
So please guys... Stop coming to forum crying for nerfs when even the photo proof shows nothing more than the OP's failure to react to the attacker AT ALL...

And no, I am not trolling or trying to be arrogant but all the "fast" complaints by people brought our pvp combat meta to the bad spot we are in today. Because ZOS simply applies nerfs according to outcry. Less asking for nerfs, more brain! If you don't know how to react to birds. Ask for help on forums. But don't cry for nerfs as first step...

so, I try to just try run away on flat groud, so now I should to block it? to almost immobilize myselfwith block my most important regen? (in medium armor and no shield ofc)

shielding? please give me stamina scale damage shield at fine then

even if cloak...again, not working always because of broken lag issues with server or just det potion and gg, can I have potion to ignore people blocking or shields please?

medium armor isnt to blok every spammable hit like cliffracer, we have big big problem with just stamina to block full soul assault channel with blocking our stam regen so what now with just blocking every spammable hit?

I haven't been speaking of perma blocking... the key is to block tactical.
Your example: A Warden attacks you in open field, no possibility to go out of line of sight. Your reaction as StamNB should be: Turn around block maybe first 2 cliffracers while getting closer to the warden, vigor, gapclose, fear, apply counter pressure. I guaratee you if he keeps spamming just 2 more birds after you are on him he is done... and thats just an example to react according to your given example.
In general: when pressured in open field all you can do is applying counter pressure asap. If one ofc just stands there and perma blocks birds, one will die.
Magicka can easily react with shield spamming for instant defense.
My point being: Eveluate the fight and react to it. As long as you are not zerged down and pressured by multiple enemies one guy spamming cliff racers on you should NEVER be a problem.
Just because the "usual way" to avoid dmg in medium armor (dodging) doesn't work for a skill, doesn't mean its op. Simply react accordingly.

Nihility42

xaraan wrote: »

I've run warden in pvp a lot (and fought them in pvp a lot), you have to be pretty bad to die from nothing but cliff racer spam tbh. Either get in the fight or get out, and once you are in, if you decide to try and run, dodge rolling shouldn't be auto win for those running away from fights they started. If you are in the face of the warden pressuring them, this isn't going to happen - which is why it's not as OP as some try to paint it - it's very situational as a spammable. There is a reason when you fight a warden in a normal fight, they do other stuff than just spam this one skill.

Also - posting a death recap means NOTHING in the way of proving any points - get tired of seeing them with people pointing to them like "A-Ha!". We don't know how good or bad either play is or (all of) the gear of both players. We don't know the context - is someone on a keep wall and this guy was seiging and not worrying about what was happening. etc. - and not just talking about this post, but every time someone uses it as proof a skill is strong. It's horrible proof and the only real use of these types of caps are for amusement.

If the skill was going to be made dodgeable, then it definitely needs to be reworked completely or it would just be worthless for pvp with as slow as it is. But it really isn't that bad as is. Every player that can't handle losing to a particular thing they can't master in pvp games makes this complaint - seen it in every player vs player game I've ever been in - it's never on them, it's always this skill or this piece of gears fault for their loss.

I agree with this. I play stamden in PVP and the only people I ever kill with Cutting Dive spam are people standing by keep walls during a siege that make no effort to move out of range, block, or heal. Or sometimes people that try to run from a fight and, again, make no effort to heal, block or do anything other than run. If you die with nothing but cliff racer on the death recap, 100% chance it's because you suck or fell asleep while PVPing.

Anethum

Nihility42 wrote: »

I agree with this. I play stamden in PVP and the only people I ever kill with Cutting Dive spam are people standing by keep walls during a siege that make no effort to move out of range, block, or heal. Or sometimes people that try to run from a fight and, again, make no effort to heal, block or do anything other than run. If you die with nothing but cliff racer on the death recap, 100% chance it's because you suck or fell asleep while PVPing.

And nope, most kills with it happends, when caster is behind his allies, who chasing someone, who kite their's attacks with a dodges or trees, stones. Same at lethal arrows from "marksmans" (which are at least dodgable).
I don't like this skill because of this, it closes a window to save your life from zergers for medium armor users.

Thogard

if you die to cliff racer spam without a deep fissure mixed in, it is a learn to play issue and you need to learn to tap block. Cliff racer is the easeiest skill in the game to tap block. End of discussion.

Vapirko

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

fine nerf the racer but then BUFF other warden stuff for pve and give us back the physical damage bonus

Why do people keep crying buff wardens in PvE, they already make great tanks and healers and stam warden dps isn’t the absolute best but it’s also still competitive same with mag warden. Not every class can be the best min max at everything. DKs make *** healers and you never hear any whining about that.

ToRelax

Dracane wrote: »

Undodgeable Cliffracers annoyed me a lot, especially when outnumbered.
Still I think they should remain as they are, because it's all that magicka Wardens really have.

If we compare it to other spammable damage abilities, cliffracers offers nothing other than being undodgeable. It applies no debuff, utility or secondary effects. It's just straight damage.

It's delayed damage. Everyone's acting as though that somehow justifies it being undodgeable, but I only see it as a means to stack higher burst. You might as well say Curse adds nothing but damage, now if you could spam Curse, that would be broken, too.

Izaki

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

Increase projectile speed. Boom. You can make it dodgeable.

Abysswarrior45

Add counterplay (dodge) and it'd be balanced. Its a projectile anyway, not a beam attack so why is this not the case? Also making a skill dodgeable doesn't nerf the warden in PVE. And to argue that people need to LOS, well... you can't. The pigeon spam goes through the damn walls. I don't get why people are so against counterplay in this game.

ArcaneBlue

and this is why they need to better separate pve and pvp

caeliusstarbreaker

How is making the bird dodgeable a pve nerf? Sub assault is already undodgeable and unblockable. Bird should be dodgeable.

Joy_Division

Vapirko wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

fine nerf the racer but then BUFF other warden stuff for pve and give us back the physical damage bonus

Why do people keep crying buff wardens in PvE, they already make great tanks and healers and stam warden dps isn’t the absolute best but it’s also still competitive same with mag warden. Not every class can be the best min max at everything. DKs make *** healers and you never hear any whining about that.

Most people who play the game are DPS and mag warden dps isn't competitive.

I don't like Cliff Racers either, but the skill doesn't do anything but damage. While that sounds good, it's only good because it is undodgable. The moment it become dodgeable is the moment it is outclassed in every way by Crushing Shock. The skill would have to be rethought if it were to be made dodgeable.

ToRelax

Joy_Division wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

fine nerf the racer but then BUFF other warden stuff for pve and give us back the physical damage bonus

Why do people keep crying buff wardens in PvE, they already make great tanks and healers and stam warden dps isn’t the absolute best but it’s also still competitive same with mag warden. Not every class can be the best min max at everything. DKs make *** healers and you never hear any whining about that.

Most people who play the game are DPS and mag warden dps isn't competitive.

I don't like Cliff Racers either, but the skill doesn't do anything but damage. While that sounds good, it's only good because it is undodgable. The moment it become dodgeable is the moment it is outclassed in every way by Crushing Shock. The skill would have to be rethought if it were to be made dodgeable.

It deals more damage and costs less magicka than Force Pulse (which deals more damage than Crushing Shock). Additionally, they can be used together to land at the same time.
Further it can be beneficial that Cliffracer is a class ability and deals magic damage and deals it's damage in a single hit; likewise being a weapon ability and dealing elemental damage in several hits can be more useful for other builds.

Edziu

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

because snipe is instant ? lol

cliff racer is delayed, and therefore telegraphed

snipe have a cast time plus a travel time that makes the hit very delayed.......

you are proving my point

so you are going to make snipe undodgable like ciffracer?

Edziu

Venom4You wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

Venom4You wrote: »

noone should ever die to a spammed ability - Spamming is not effective in this game (at least if your opponent can handle himself...). A skilled warden doesn't spam birds either. It is weaved in a rotation. So first of all you didn't face a skilled opponent.
There remains basically one reason why you died there: You weren't paying attention - Not going defensive (going out of line of sight?, blocking?!, shielding?). The fact that the player hit you with almost always the same dmg value tells me that you didn't block a single of these cliff racers...
I mean seriously guys. Stop coming to forum to cry for nerfs if the solution is to use your brain... cliffracer is undodgable? some scrub is spamming it on you? easy: simply block it/ shield it and apply counter pressure with dots and timed burst.
It is an ability that is clearly visible and good to react to. But if people keep dodge rolling like maniacs even so they know the used ability is undodgeable... its a learn to play issue.
So please guys... Stop coming to forum crying for nerfs when even the photo proof shows nothing more than the OP's failure to react to the attacker AT ALL...

And no, I am not trolling or trying to be arrogant but all the "fast" complaints by people brought our pvp combat meta to the bad spot we are in today. Because ZOS simply applies nerfs according to outcry. Less asking for nerfs, more brain! If you don't know how to react to birds. Ask for help on forums. But don't cry for nerfs as first step...

so, I try to just try run away on flat groud, so now I should to block it? to almost immobilize myselfwith block my most important regen? (in medium armor and no shield ofc)

shielding? please give me stamina scale damage shield at fine then

even if cloak...again, not working always because of broken lag issues with server or just det potion and gg, can I have potion to ignore people blocking or shields please?

medium armor isnt to blok every spammable hit like cliffracer, we have big big problem with just stamina to block full soul assault channel with blocking our stam regen so what now with just blocking every spammable hit?

I haven't been speaking of perma blocking... the key is to block tactical.
Your example: A Warden attacks you in open field, no possibility to go out of line of sight. Your reaction as StamNB should be: Turn around block maybe first 2 cliffracers while getting closer to the warden, vigor, gapclose, fear, apply counter pressure. I guaratee you if he keeps spamming just 2 more birds after you are on him he is done... and thats just an example to react according to your given example.
In general: when pressured in open field all you can do is applying counter pressure asap. If one ofc just stands there and perma blocks birds, one will die.
Magicka can easily react with shield spamming for instant defense.
My point being: Eveluate the fight and react to it. As long as you are not zerged down and pressured by multiple enemies one guy spamming cliff racers on you should NEVER be a problem.
Just because the "usual way" to avoid dmg in medium armor (dodging) doesn't work for a skill, doesn't mean its op. Simply react accordingly.

ok, in 1v1 this isnt that huge problem
my problem is here as every warden who is spamming it is never 1v1, he is always xv1 which is more annyoing than templar spamming beam on you at 100% health but to topic you are even unable to run away with this *** on your back
its really pw2 for noobs as noob will use this skill always in zerg and litarally with this way ZOS is killing competetive game adding zerg noob skill with no counter in outnumbered situations

I can truly say every warden which is spamming cliff racer on "dodging monkey" is just zerg ***, xv1 hero, noob, casual who like easy win in x noobs v 1good player in not heavy armor

with same way at all ZOS could make skills like dark flare make undodgable
- its harder spammable because of cast time
- have more delayed animation than clif racer
- big ball of light flying to you hard to not notice it

so why the hell this is dodgable like few other skills similiar to this with big animation tells, flying to you while alse are those with cast time?

olsborg

If u use the scarecrow costume the birds wont hit u. They will flee in terror.

Ragnarock41

I mean I don't even care at this point but I want to ask something to all the warden defenders here,

How the hell making birds dodgeable a nerf to warden pve? Just tell me what are you smoking please.

SodanTok

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because stam has Wrecking Blow?

No, because no stam warden with birds ever hits that hard.

PlagueSD wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because it does MORE damage the farther your target is from you. Yet ANOTHER reason to close the gap as soon as possible...

Something like that. Imo the more damage from distance is absolutely not needed there at all. For undodgeable ability, basic birds are doing fine damage.

Ragnarock41

SodanTok wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because stam has Wrecking Blow?

No, because no stam warden with birds ever hits that hard.

PlagueSD wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because it does MORE damage the farther your target is from you. Yet ANOTHER reason to close the gap as soon as possible...

Something like that. Imo the more damage from distance is absolutely not needed there at all. For undodgeable ability, basic birds are doing fine damage.

rewarding people for being cowards shouldn't be a thing.

If anything it should do more damage on closer ranges.

in my opinion reflect abilties should at least deflect the birds.

Popping wings on a sDk , just to get hit for 5-7k birds isn't fair.

Chilly-McFreeze

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff.
Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

@Maura_Neysa Now please tell me exactly at which spot a PvE warden DD would suffer from dodgeable cliffracers. Dodgebility is a no issue in PvE.

Ragnarock41

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff.
Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

@Maura_Neysa Now please tell me exactly at which spot a PvE warden DD would suffer from dodgeable cliffracers. Dodgebility is a no issue in PvE.

for some people, every change is a pve nerf that is caused by whiny pvp players who shouldn't exist and yada yada.

That being said cliff racer is definitely a busted ability right now. When a game rewards you for pressing only a single skill, its bad gameplay.

(remember jesus beam anyone?)

SodanTok

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because stam has Wrecking Blow?

No, because no stam warden with birds ever hits that hard.

PlagueSD wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Its always the magicka cliff racer. Guess why.

Because it does MORE damage the farther your target is from you. Yet ANOTHER reason to close the gap as soon as possible...

Something like that. Imo the more damage from distance is absolutely not needed there at all. For undodgeable ability, basic birds are doing fine damage.

rewarding people for being cowards shouldn't be a thing.

If anything it should do more damage on closer ranges.

in my opinion reflect abilties should at least deflect the birds.

Popping wings on a sDk , just to get hit for 5-7k birds isn't fair.

I would agree on the first part. There is no need for it to give bonus damage for people already being in advantage of range (and for example in pursuit). It does not need to reward people being in melee, what it needs (and so does stamina bird) is more pve oriented advantage from the morph. Because it is already fine ability damage wise and utility wise (undodgeable).

As for reflect, I dont like reflect mechanics at all, so dunno. I always felt it is stupid your defense could match or even be better than offense of enemy that relies only on ranged projectile attacks. Better would be to give DKs absorb morph.

Knootewoot

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

The Warden is the weakest PVE damage build, and the class only has 4 DPS skills. So as much as PVP wants nerf, PVE wants buff. That why the only changes to the class have been a nerf to Healing Thicket and buffs

The reason Screaming Cliff Racer is undogable is because its extremely telegraphe. Unlike Power Lash, which can be so effectively weaved you don't see the animation at all. Because its is so telegraphed block is an extremely easy counter to it.

That death recap is nothing but cliff racers, which means that death comes down to being caught in a bad place, by a not so good build. Where is the LA between each Cliff Racer, Subterranean Assault, Fletcher Flies, Wall? Anything to make me believe this wasn't a staged Death Recap.

Honsetly you can't cry nerf until that thing is no longer the very worst dps class both flavors stamina and magicka

But, how does it effect PvE if the skill is dodgeable? If they would change that, it wouldn't hurt PvE would it? Or do NPC's also dodge roll?

Serious question this is because i don't PvE much

JobooAGS

Edziu wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

because snipe is instant ? lol

cliff racer is delayed, and therefore telegraphed

snipe have a cast time plus a travel time that makes the hit very delayed.......

you are proving my point

so you are going to make snipe undodgable like ciffracer?

No, If cliff racer were to be dodgeable. the projectile speed would have to be speed up otherwise why use it over snipe?

ToRelax

JobooAGS wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

because snipe is instant ? lol

cliff racer is delayed, and therefore telegraphed

snipe have a cast time plus a travel time that makes the hit very delayed.......

you are proving my point

so you are going to make snipe undodgable like ciffracer?

No, If cliff racer were to be dodgeable. the projectile speed would have to be speed up otherwise why use it over snipe?

Because you don't need a bow for it, can't be interrupted and can even use it on a magicka build?

TequilaFire

As a medium armor wearer I have had to learn to block as well as roll dodge and build for more mitigation/sustain.
If you rely on dodge and max weapon damage build alone you are going to die.

Edziu

JobooAGS wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

make racer instant too, otherwise its a weaker version of snipe.

because snipe is instant ? lol

cliff racer is delayed, and therefore telegraphed

snipe have a cast time plus a travel time that makes the hit very delayed.......

you are proving my point

so you are going to make snipe undodgable like ciffracer?

No, If cliff racer were to be dodgeable. the projectile speed would have to be speed up otherwise why use it over snipe?

yeah same as @ToRelax said
main advantage it doesnt have cast time so even in lags you can spam it while with snipe you are stuck in 5 sec cast time because of lag
and many times I tried silver shards from fighters guild to get just simple spammable on range and this is still *** and not worth sloting and Im still stuck with cast time snipe for range spammable with annyoing cast time during lag