Earthgore Nerf

VaranisArano

From the latest PTS patch notes:
Earthgore: This item set’s proc now only dispels one enemy Area of Effect ability in its radius, instead of all of them.

Excellent change! Now groups that stack Earthgore on half the players in their raid will still be annoying, but at least they can't counter every single enemy area of effect with a single proc of the set. As a member of an organized raid that doesn't stack Earthgore, I'm delighted to see this.

Feanor

I’d still argue it won’t change much because the heal stays so strong. Toning down on the ultra negate is a good first step though.

Thraben

This is from one week ago, and is completely useless, as most ball groups don't even leave their Gates without more Earthgores than expected ground based effects, so that a possible negate is still countered in most cases.

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

I’d still argue it won’t change much because the heal stays so strong. Toning down on the ultra negate is a good first step though.

Agreed. the purge and the heal were equally op.

VaranisArano

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Lord_Eomer

Feanor wrote: »

I’d still argue it won’t change much because the heal stays so strong. Toning down on the ultra negate is a good first step though.

This set not need more nerf to become useless!

asneakybanana

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

Lord_Eomer

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

asneakybanana

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

Well then nerf the healing to be over 10s instead of 3 because as it is if a group has 2 earthgore procced and they are standing in them then you cannot kill them. It is a carry set and requires little to no thinking on the wearers part. Oh, you made a mistake and played poorly and let your health drop below 50%? here have an aoe heal for your entire group to heal you up to 100%. It is not about cooldown time because often times a fight does not last more than 10s and by the time you next engage 30s will have gone by and your eg will be back up. There are very, very few times when you are fighting that you consistently are in a group casting and taking damage for 30s straight and if you are doing that then you're probably doing it wrong. This game is very dependent on kiting and movement and timing ultimates so until you have your ultimates up again you are not likely to reengage.

I would say making it single target and reducing the cooldown would be balanced because compared to chokethorn it is not a ground based heal that you can outrange, it is a stronger heal, and it also has the ability to remove 1 ground effect. Currently if you compare the healing potential of earthgore vs chokethorn on 6 people it is not even a question. 20000/10= 2k hps for chokethorn. 180000/35=5.1k hps for earthgore as it is. If you were to make it single target with a 20s cooldown it would be 30000/20= 1.5k hps with the above mentioned bonuses and it only proccing when needed.

Minalan

Dear ZOS. This change will not stop Zerg balls from standing inside of oil and siege weapons laughing at you. The heal is the problem. Thanks!

OdinForge

I don't know what needs to happen with earthgore, this game has become something else.

All I know is that when I see a 20 man stacking earthgores, wardens and healplars rolls around with unavoidable damage, I play a different game.

olsborg

I dont care too much about the negate/purge , but the healing is ridiculously strong. They nerfed it wrong imo.

Ragnarock41

good change. Im suprised ZOS didn't took 12 months to fix a broken proc set this time.
Its a partial fix ,heal is still insane, but still it is a start.

Draxys

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

That's what healers are for. 2 pieces of gear shouldn't be able to save a player like a healer should.

Ragnarock41

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

That's what healers are for. 2 pieces of gear shouldn't be able to save a player like a healer should.

people are doing vDSA with 3 DDs and an earthgore on the tank, it does the healer's job. lol.

Koolio

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

That's what healers are for. 2 pieces of gear shouldn't be able to save a player like a healer should.

people are doing vDSA with 3 DDs and an earthgore on the tank, it does the healer's job. lol.

I don’t use Earth Gore but I do tank VDSA with 3 DD.

All hail Templar Tank lol

Ragnarock41

Koolio wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I can see where the strong heals are a problem for small groups. Its harder for opposing small groups to generate enough damage to overcome the heals.

In a organized raid v organized raid situation, the main problem is that Earthgore removed all of the AOEs that do a ton of damage, then the second Earthgore procs and removes them all again, and we've been fighting groups that had 14 earthgore sets in their raid. The raid has the damage to overcome the heals, but not if most of their damage is negated by a single Earthgore, followed by more when the raid tries again.

So for raid v raid, I'm okay for the healing factor because that can be overcome as long as the group isn't getting free negates on the majority of incoming damage every time an Earthgore set procs. Limiting it to 1 AOE effect being removed seems like a good balance of keeping the set effective and still making it possible for opposing groups to overcome it.

Would be interesting to see the healing get changed to a single target heal and have the cooldown reduced by 10 or 15s. So instead of having 1 person go under 50% and then proc the aoe heal for everyone in the area when the player drops below 50% it sends a HoT to that player with the same strength as teh current aoe heal. Since this will only effect 1 player now dropping the cooldown to 20s or so will make it fairly balanced since the negate portion, while still nice only removes 1 ground aoe and there can be many ground AoEs down every 20s.

If you need single target then go for Chokethorn

AOE healing set is needed and this is what earthgore for.

No need to kill variety, AOE heal proc in 30 second should not be an issue. If you are fighting zerg and complaining about this set then even without this set you can not beat them!

That's what healers are for. 2 pieces of gear shouldn't be able to save a player like a healer should.

people are doing vDSA with 3 DDs and an earthgore on the tank, it does the healer's job. lol.

I don’t use Earth Gore but I do tank VDSA with 3 DD.

All hail Templar Tank lol

in vDSA fun stuff like that works out nicely. I wish there was more content like vMA/vDSA. Its really a lot better than the usual dungeons, trials imo.

Especially when the loot is so awesome.

in my first run we had a magblade healer, he both healed us and did amazing dps.

and that is how I got my master's bow.

GreenSoup2HoT

I personally wish this set disspelled channeled aoes. What did ground based aoes ever do to anyone (not including negate for sake of argument)?

f047ys3v3n

Derra wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I’d still argue it won’t change much because the heal stays so strong. Toning down on the ultra negate is a good first step though.

Agreed. the purge and the heal were equally op.

Yep, heal and purge are both OP. The heal was really the more OP than the purge in both PVP and PVE anyway. It just just plain a huge heal that auto fires just when you need it most.

Asgari

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

jakeedmundson

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

Hurika

Did ZoS ever say what the design goal of this set is? Without knowing much about it, it almost seems like a set designed to help deal with stalemates when trying to take a keep/outpost where there's tons of AOE on the breach that would insta-kill groups trying to get in.

If that's the goal, maybe some other mechanic would work better as this one seems to have a lot of impact outside of that.

If it's not the goal then I dunno.

Draxys

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

Whether or not it’s “worth it” shouldn’t factor in until its design is better. Right now, a 2 piece set is literally partially playing the game for you.

asneakybanana

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

If you nerf the healing by 50% it wouldn't really change much in pve, it would be a 15k base tooltip over 3s then factor in increased healing CP, powered weapon, ritual mundus, and minor/major mending and you're still looking at a 25k+ tooltip over 3s which is more health than anyone runs in pve apart from tanks.

jakeedmundson

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

If you nerf the healing by 50% it wouldn't really change much in pve, it would be a 15k base tooltip over 3s then factor in increased healing CP, powered weapon, ritual mundus, and minor/major mending and you're still looking at a 25k+ tooltip over 3s which is more health than anyone runs in pve apart from tanks.

Tanks are the one that use this set. I've found it especially useful in vet dungeon pugs. You know... horribly low dps and bad healers? sometimes this set is the only thing that saves a wipe in places like WGT.

And i'm not saying it doesn't need ANY tweaking... 50% is just too much imo.
Plus, what would be the incentive to even DO bloodroot on vet if the helm is worthless? Unless you're in some elite, dedicated group... this dungeon is extremely difficult.

asneakybanana

jakeedmundson wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

If you nerf the healing by 50% it wouldn't really change much in pve, it would be a 15k base tooltip over 3s then factor in increased healing CP, powered weapon, ritual mundus, and minor/major mending and you're still looking at a 25k+ tooltip over 3s which is more health than anyone runs in pve apart from tanks.

Tanks are the one that use this set. I've found it especially useful in vet dungeon pugs. You know... horribly low dps and bad healers? sometimes this set is the only thing that saves a wipe in places like WGT.

And i'm not saying it doesn't need ANY tweaking... 50% is just too much imo.
Plus, what would be the incentive to even DO bloodroot on vet if the helm is worthless? Unless you're in some elite, dedicated group... this dungeon is extremely difficult.

You are proving the point that the set does the work for you and is a fairly brainless set. And even with a nerf it would still benefit you for being sloppy and not keeping your health topped off which is never something that should be emphasised.

Also bloodroot isn't that hard, my PvP guild, most of which never does pve except for gear and dungeons, was clearing it in 30 mins-1 hr consistently the week it came out to farm this set.

jediprime74

If people are going on about a *healing* proc set I think it might be time to just revisit proc sets as a whole and remove them from the game entirely. Personally I like proc sets, including Earthgore, but it would reduce the complaints in these forums by about one third if they were removed. I, for one, consider that a good tradeoff. Though I suppose people would just find other things to gripe about at that point...

Checkmath

They cant remove proc sets, since they dont come up with cool new sets, they have to come up with new procs.

Asgari

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

If you nerf the healing by 50% it wouldn't really change much in pve, it would be a 15k base tooltip over 3s then factor in increased healing CP, powered weapon, ritual mundus, and minor/major mending and you're still looking at a 25k+ tooltip over 3s which is more health than anyone runs in pve apart from tanks.

Tanks are the one that use this set. I've found it especially useful in vet dungeon pugs. You know... horribly low dps and bad healers? sometimes this set is the only thing that saves a wipe in places like WGT.

And i'm not saying it doesn't need ANY tweaking... 50% is just too much imo.
Plus, what would be the incentive to even DO bloodroot on vet if the helm is worthless? Unless you're in some elite, dedicated group... this dungeon is extremely difficult.

You are proving the point that the set does the work for you and is a fairly brainless set. And even with a nerf it would still benefit you for being sloppy and not keeping your health topped off which is never something that should be emphasised.

Also bloodroot isn't that hard, my PvP guild, most of which never does pve except for gear and dungeons, was clearing it in 30 mins-1 hr consistently the week it came out to farm this set.

As sneaky said the healing difference wouldn't be incredibly noticeable with a 50% cut on the tool tip. However in Cyro if nothing is done to how the set heals it is still going to be used by tons of players and more than likely even more people next update with the aoe cap change.

As it stands now plenty of DD use the set to show how op it is. Its basically a phoenix set but you can still do things. It certainly gives you a second chance and in many cases when more than one is around it can give another 2-3 chances.

The set is waaaaay to strong for a 2pc. Nothing that strong should be 2pc especially when it doesn't do just yourself.

Hiero_Glyph

jediprime74 wrote: »

If people are going on about a *healing* proc set I think it might be time to just revisit proc sets as a whole and remove them from the game entirely. Personally I like proc sets, including Earthgore, but it would reduce the complaints in these forums by about one third if they were removed. I, for one, consider that a good tradeoff. Though I suppose people would just find other things to gripe about at that point...

I think the problem is really the lack of counterplay and the fact that when Earthgore procs it acts as a reset button of sorts. There are a few changes that would keep it strong while making it balanced though.

1) Make it have a fixed amount of health available for those 3 seconds so the more players that it heals the sooner it gets drained and is unable to heal. This keeps it strong in small groups but makes it weaker in zergs.

2) Reduce the area so that an AoE is a counterplay. By forcing players to ball up you make them weaker to AoEs and require more coordination.

3) Reduce the percentage of health for when the set triggers. This allows a large burst to potentially kill the player before the set can heal them.

jakeedmundson

.

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Asgari wrote: »

healing on the sets tool tip should be cut 50% along with the negate change it had. The heal is just insane on this 2pc

Then it would just be another garbage set no one uses. Maybe if you cut the healing to 50% in pvp... i get that issue.
But if that happened as a blanket nerf, the set wouldn't be worth getting for pve either.

If you nerf the healing by 50% it wouldn't really change much in pve, it would be a 15k base tooltip over 3s then factor in increased healing CP, powered weapon, ritual mundus, and minor/major mending and you're still looking at a 25k+ tooltip over 3s which is more health than anyone runs in pve apart from tanks.

Tanks are the one that use this set. I've found it especially useful in vet dungeon pugs. You know... horribly low dps and bad healers? sometimes this set is the only thing that saves a wipe in places like WGT.

And i'm not saying it doesn't need ANY tweaking... 50% is just too much imo.
Plus, what would be the incentive to even DO bloodroot on vet if the helm is worthless? Unless you're in some elite, dedicated group... this dungeon is extremely difficult.

You are proving the point that the set does the work for you and is a fairly brainless set. And even with a nerf it would still benefit you for being sloppy and not keeping your health topped off which is never something that should be emphasised.

Also bloodroot isn't that hard, my PvP guild, most of which never does pve except for gear and dungeons, was clearing it in 30 mins-1 hr consistently the week it came out to farm this set.

"Does the work for you" != saving you once in a difficult boss fight with a crap pug.
If that's the case... then nerf Magma armor too. Its too strong and you shouldn't need to use it to stay alive.

Bottom line is... this set needs to be better than sets like chokethorn.
I think you could at least agree that chokethorn is MUCH easier to obtain than earthgore?
If they drop that heal to 15k... the tooltip is now less than chokethorn. The 1st piece bonus isn't as good either. The only thing earthgore has on those other sets is AOE heal (but worthless in 4-man content since you're usually not that close together). Also worthless in trials because it simply isn't helpful there... not even for the negate.

so we cycle back to the main reason for people wanting the nerf... PVP.
If it doesn't affect ANYTHING you do outside of cyrodiil/bgs. Then please try to keep the focus on the actual problem area.
However you want to see it... lazy, brainless, etc.... it doesn't affect you at all if someone has it on in a vet dungeon, does it?