Necromancers

srnekro

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Look after they added the Necromancer personality in Dragon Bones DLC they are going to have to add the playable gameplay feature for it as well.

Honestly I do not like how Classic ES skill lines and Magic schools are being split apart.
Why is ice, lightning, and fire split between 3 classes?
Why does it feel like everyone is a Caster?

If I pick sorcerer I have to level all of my class skills. I can't be a pure lightning master. This class system does not feel roleplayer friendly. What if I want to be a pure lightning caster and I don't want anything to do with Daedra?

I like the weapon skill lines. Having Dual wield and 1h & shield skill lines makes sense.
What I think ESO needs is another stamina based skill line and another magicka based skill line.
Stamina: Spear
Magicka: Necromancy OR Spellsword (1h weapon + 1h spellcasting)

Go to 52:00 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkeMacg-b0

I already put a reply about this on my other thread

but I forgot to quote you... and now I don't know how to do it, sorry :c

VaranisArano

srnekro wrote: »

but I forgot to quote you... and now I don't know how to do it, sorry :c

To quote someone on another thread:
1. press the [ "Quote] button at the bottom of their post to get the quote at the post part of this thread.
2. Copy the portion of text you want to put on the other post. (if you just want their quote and not any previous quotes they responded to, delete everything between their name at the very front in brackets and the start of what they actually said.)
3. Paste that quote onto the other thread.
4. Copy/paste the thread URL from this thread onto the new post with the quote, saying something like "On this thread, So-and-so said: Quote + Thread URL

Its not exactly MLA formatting, but then I'm not an English teacher. It'll do the job of quoting, crediting, and directing people back to the original source of the discussion if they want more.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

“I am stretching this "post" too much. I know, you all caling me names and such. And who the oblivion gives a skeever about Necromancers?”

It’s like he read my mind!

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

How about a skill lines instead of a new Class?
Necromancy used to just be part of Conjuration. Now Conjuration, like destruction, is splitting apart in this system.

Look after they added the Necromancer personality in Dragon Bones DLC they are going to have to add the playable gameplay feature for it as well.

Honestly I do not like how Classic ES skill lines and Magic schools are being split apart.
Why is ice, lightning, and fire split between 3 classes?
Why does it feel like everyone is a Caster?

If I pick sorcerer I have to level all of my class skills. I can't be a pure lightning master. This class system does not feel roleplayer friendly. What if I want to be a pure lightning caster and I don't want anything to do with Daedra?

I like the weapon skill lines. Having Dual wield and 1h & shield skill lines makes sense.
What I think ESO needs is another stamina based skill line and another magicka based skill line.
Stamina: Spear
Magicka: Necromancy OR Spellsword (1h weapon + 1h spellcasting)

Actually, as a Sorc you can be a pure lightning master. The most common builds for top DPS are pur lightning though some choose to use their pets which do fine. Outside of leveling your skill lines, which once done you do not have to deal with any of those skills again, you have the build you mention.

As for the division, Zos chose, and really needed to choose in a modern MMO, the design of differing class kill lines. Granted you are permitted to not like it but it was a logical division. However, one can easily use at least two of the elementals in a build if they so choose and soon that may be even more viable. Heck, many of us use all three ATM if we want to split hairs since FP is all three elements.

And no, not everyone is a caster. Approximately half of the builds in ESO are not casters.

Granted, the Sorc was probably a bad example to use.

Ratzkifal

Remember that necromancer in the college of Winterhold? He isn't really evil but it is heavily implied that necromancy is his thing together with conjuration.

TheShadowScout

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Remember that necromancer in the college of Winterhold? He isn't really evil but it is heavily implied that necromancy is his thing together with conjuration.

Well, necromancy IS indeed a subset of conjuration, so... no surprise.

But not all necromancers have to be evil. Remember Vastarie from Grahtwood? She is obviously a necromancer (necromantrix?), but follows Azura and opposes Molag Bal... if they ever were to ass necromancy as sorceror "prestige class" she would make an excellent "master trainer" option!

srnekro

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

srnekro wrote: »

but I forgot to quote you... and now I don't know how to do it, sorry :c

To quote someone on another thread:
1. press the [ "Quote] button at the bottom of their post to get the quote at the post part of this thread.
2. Copy the portion of text you want to put on the other post. (if you just want their quote and not any previous quotes they responded to, delete everything between their name at the very front in brackets and the start of what they actually said.)
3. Paste that quote onto the other thread.
4. Copy/paste the thread URL from this thread onto the new post with the quote, saying something like "On this thread, So-and-so said: Quote + Thread URL

Thank you

Iccotak

@srnekro I'll say what I said in the other thread.

Stop separating the Schools of magic.
I want more of a return to Elder Scrolls classic schools of magic and skill lines.
Why are the elements separated between three classes?
People all across Tamriel have access to fire magic but you have to play Dragon Knight for more fire magic?
Why do I have to play a daedra summoner to have access to lightning powers?
You have to play Warden for more Ice powers?
They try to make justifications; that the Dragon Knight is an Akiviri art, that the Wardens magic comes from Valenwood, etc.

BUT
The Wardens powers largely show creatures from Vvardenfel except for the Bear. Does that mean that everyone using ice powers had Warden training?
Why would High Elves be using fighting skills of the Akiviri?
Why would Argonians be using Aedric magic when they worship Sithis?
Why would Dunmer be using Aedric spears and such when they worship the Tribunal or Daedra?

NOTE: I am not saying restrict player based on race. I am saying that their justification for where Classes comes from makes no sense.

This effort to make each of these unique classes can lead to a restricting system. Because then you are trying to fill niches and unique flavors, rather than simply letting the player make what they want.
ESO is open right now because there are Not alot of classes and each class has more than just the class skill lines. In fact the system is so open at this point that I have to ask what the point of this class system is in the first place?

Now you could make the argument that no restriction means that everyone would play the same thing, but ESO pretty open system has already disproved that. Players have access to all skill lines except for the three specific to other classes and we can see here that they pick and choose depending on the character they want.

Conjurations should be its own skill line that has both daedric summoning and undead. ES games gave you both and having both did not make either one pointless.
If anything making daedric summoning and necromancy divided between two classes would make No Sense. As a summoner, Why wouldn't I want to know how to do both?

ZOS has already said that they are working/thinking about giving each class a DPS skill line, a Tanks skill line, and a Healing skill line. Essentially making classes purely flavor which is limiting for players seeking an RPG route. Any class can be a tank, rogue, ranger, fighter, etc. So what is the point of the class system then?
All classes have done is separate the classic magic schools of ES games.
Now you could make the argument that no restriction means that everyone would play the same thing, but ESO pretty open system has already disproved that. Players have access to all skill lines except for the three specific to other classes and we can see here that they pick and choose depending on the character they want.

If you can wear and use whatever gear you want no matter your class then WHY are schools of magic restricted to you?

Conjuration should have its own skill line
Destruction should have its own skill line
Restoration should have its own skill line
Alteration should have its own skill line
Illusion should have its own skill line

I don't want more classes because I don't want further separation and restrictive access to powers and abilities for the sake of uniqueness and flavor. I can make those things on my own with how I build my character

Iccotak

@srnekro
I have no problems with necromancers. I also want to see the option for Necromancy.

My Point, is that the other class system doesn't work because it will lead to an increase in limitations and restrictions.

ESO boasts on how no matter what class you pick you can play how you want. BUT certain classes are clearly geared more towards certain roles than other classes.

Nightblades have more abilities and therefore advantages in playing sneaking characters.
Dragon Knights have more powers that are specifically geared for tanking than the Sorcerer is.
Templars are more geared towards being healers. Which is why people are upset about Wardens because now we have two classes with healing skill lines.

SO class undeniably plays an important part in play style.

ESO is in the cross roads between MMO class system and a system more akin to Skyrim. From what I have been seeing the overwhelming response is that people don't want more classes. We want ESO to take more after ES games.
ES games allow us to make our own flavor and uniqueness. We should not have a class system that determines that for us.
Especially now that Necromancer (or Worm Wizard) is going to be a personality in the game that you can use no matter what class you are.

If you want classes with specific flavors then play Diablo. The Necromancer in that game is the most Necromancer guy around.

Skullstachio

Spoiler

srnekro wrote: »

Necromancer.
Necromancy. A beautiful thing, actually. The art to interact with the deceased. With the fallen .... With the dead.
Imagine what we could do, with this great power in our hands AND with today society. The truth we would reveal. The lies we would destroy.... The war we would rage.

For some, a dreadful meanness. Sure. A quick thinking characteristic. But quickfing is not ALWAYS good. Like Damage. There is a time for direct damage, and a time for damage over time. Yes, that separates a Warlock from a Necromancer. One, loves havoc and sought destruction and chaos. And the other one.... heck, through Necromancy, you could achieve everything you all always want.
Eternal life. Eternal friends. A whole destiny without a single end.

Anyway, Necromancy is the interact with the dead. You can talk with them. You can raise them. You can command them. You name it. Besides, your best friend, Death or Grim Reaper, is always watching your back. Unlike priests, that can save others but when facing their Deaths, can't save themselves, a skilled Necromancer can..... "persuade" Death for a second time before ending his journey. Or at least bring the one who got him killed with him. You know, for "company". Who knows what you gona find on the beyond....

I am stretching this "post" too much. I know, you all caling me names and such. And who the oblivion gives a skeever about Necromancers? Since they are the bad guys and such. Mannimarco... Well, Necromancy aint the bad guy, you know?

All I saying is, it is not the power that drives one to the evil side. Is ones heart that get corrupted and tempted to do so. If some do not resist the evil, they break and follow its path. Necromancy could be use for greater good. Give the recent fallen a second time to avenge their own deaths. Could decay and rot the very flesh of the ones who seeks to destry this world-OUR WORLD.

It is not the power who makes people evil. People do.

All I know that nothing is permanent. Not even lore. Principaly lore. For history is only written by the Winners side....with the blood of the defeated. History can be changed. Necromancers can be part of the light side again.

Everyone deserves a second chance. IF they are willing to take it....

All I want this year, is to bring the Necromancers back to the Elder Scrolls. To have a fresh start on this game.


Thank you for attention.

I might write more of "my view" towards this beloved underrated at... might...

Cheers,

Sr NeKro.

as the golden eye once quoted: "knowledge is only as wicked as the one who wields it."
(I agree.)

Lord_Hev

Iccotak wrote: »

Conjurations should be its own skill line that has both daedric summoning and undead. ES games gave you both and having both did not make either one pointless.
If anything making daedric summoning and necromancy divided between two classes would make No Sense. As a summoner, Why wouldn't I want to know how to do both?

Keep in mind, Player Characters are an exception to the norm. What you said isn't "incorrect" but the point is that there is a specialization decision in the thought process of a practitioner. In the TES games, the large majority of conjurer NPCs focus on a specialized power. "Conjurers" summon Daedra. They study specifically in Daedric magicks, and strive for deals and favors with Daedric Prince(s). "Necromancers" focus on resurrecting/summoning of the dead. They focus on gathering the souls of the mortal races and cheating death.(Lichdom)

So to put into perspective of the ESO class system, it makes sense that Sorcerers focus on Daedric Summoning(I cringe to say this as the whole skilline, and the summons themselves are horribly implemented and balanced, but I digress.) while Wardens focus on Animal companionship/nature magic. Thus, Necromancer would focus on Undead summoning/Mysticism.

srnekro

Lord_Hev wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

Conjurations should be its own skill line that has both daedric summoning and undead. ES games gave you both and having both did not make either one pointless.
If anything making daedric summoning and necromancy divided between two classes would make No Sense. As a summoner, Why wouldn't I want to know how to do both?

Keep in mind, Player Characters are an exception to the norm. What you said isn't "incorrect" but the point is that there is a specialization decision in the thought process of a practitioner. In the TES games, the large majority of conjurer NPCs focus on a specialized power. "Conjurers" summon Daedra. They study specifically in Daedric magicks, and strive for deals and favors with Daedric Prince(s). "Necromancers" focus on resurrecting/summoning of the dead. They focus on gathering the souls of the mortal races and cheating death.(Lichdom)

So to put into perspective of the ESO class system, it makes sense that Sorcerers focus on Daedric Summoning(I cringe to say this as the whole skilline, and the summons themselves are horribly implemented and balanced, but I digress.) while Wardens focus on Animal companionship/nature magic. Thus, Necromancer would focus on Undead summoning/Mysticism.

Exactly, thank you!

TheShadowScout

Lord_Hev wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

Conjurations should be its own skill line that has both daedric summoning and undead. ES games gave you both and having both did not make either one pointless.
If anything making daedric summoning and necromancy divided between two classes would make No Sense. As a summoner, Why wouldn't I want to know how to do both?

Keep in mind, Player Characters are an exception to the norm. What you said isn't "incorrect" but the point is that there is a specialization decision in the thought process of a practitioner. In the TES games, the large majority of conjurer NPCs focus on a specialized power. "Conjurers" summon Daedra. They study specifically in Daedric magicks, and strive for deals and favors with Daedric Prince(s). "Necromancers" focus on resurrecting/summoning of the dead. They focus on gathering the souls of the mortal races and cheating death.(Lichdom)

So to put into perspective of the ESO class system, it makes sense that Sorcerers focus on Daedric Summoning(I cringe to say this as the whole skilline, and the summons themselves are horribly implemented and balanced, but I digress.) while Wardens focus on Animal companionship/nature magic. Thus, Necromancer would focus on Undead summoning/Mysticism.

Thanks for making a case for it being a skill line by comparing it to skill lines!

Sorcerors do not "focus" on conjuration, but also have dark magic and lighting to play with. Wardens also have ice magic with their fauna and flora type nature magic.
Thus it follows... necromancy would be a mere skill line as well.
And since the lore -does- treat it as subset of conjuration, as I repeatedly mentioned... it -would- make sense if it was optional further specialization for sorcerors. That way some sorcerors might specialize in this, others in that, and others still in necromancy.
Works for me.

ereboz

Should be a guild skill line. Doesn't need a full class with 3 skill lines

Vanthras79

TheShadowScout wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Conjurations should be its own skill line that has both daedric summoning and undead. ES games gave you both and having both did not make either one pointless.
If anything making daedric summoning and necromancy divided between two classes would make No Sense. As a summoner, Why wouldn't I want to know how to do both?

Keep in mind, Player Characters are an exception to the norm. What you said isn't "incorrect" but the point is that there is a specialization decision in the thought process of a practitioner. In the TES games, the large majority of conjurer NPCs focus on a specialized power. "Conjurers" summon Daedra. They study specifically in Daedric magicks, and strive for deals and favors with Daedric Prince(s). "Necromancers" focus on resurrecting/summoning of the dead. They focus on gathering the souls of the mortal races and cheating death.(Lichdom)

So to put into perspective of the ESO class system, it makes sense that Sorcerers focus on Daedric Summoning(I cringe to say this as the whole skilline, and the summons themselves are horribly implemented and balanced, but I digress.) while Wardens focus on Animal companionship/nature magic. Thus, Necromancer would focus on Undead summoning/Mysticism.

Thanks for making a case for it being a skill line by comparing it to skill lines!

Sorcerors do not "focus" on conjuration, but also have dark magic and lighting to play with. Wardens also have ice magic with their fauna and flora type nature magic.
Thus it follows... necromancy would be a mere skill line as well.
And since the lore -does- treat it as subset of conjuration, as I repeatedly mentioned... it -would- make sense if it was optional further specialization for sorcerors. That way some sorcerors might specialize in this, others in that, and others still in necromancy.
Works for me.

I see your point. We shall see Soon™

Iccotak

I would like to clarify that I do not see any return of the classic magic schools happening for these two reasons

1. We have had this system since launch over 3 years ago.
So comepletely changing the system from the ground up would not go well in all probability

2. many of the classic magic spells would make class skill lines pointless.
-Warden effectively has Ice cloak. So making it available in the destruction school would not go well.
-Muffle and invisibility in Illusion would make certain Nightblade skills redundant.
-Conjuration would give everyone the ability to summon daedra. Sorry Sorcerers
-Having an entire destruction school would make three separate elemental skill lines from three different classes redundant.

Again for context, here is the video.
Go to about 52:00 for Spell crafting
Go to about 1:01:00 for the demonstration of classic spells
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkeMacg-b0&t=3546s

Many magic schools as skill lines would not fit the existing classes. Necromancy would not fit the Templar, because it doesn't fit the theme.
The classes are there to determine your specializations, play style, and theme.
Which is the problem as players would like to determine that for themselves. Which is evident with the new Personality system and the inclusion of a necromancer personality that you can use on any character no matter your class.
Also none of the specializations are for pure Barbarians, fighters, rangers, etc. All of them are specializations in magic, you have to play some sort of caster no matter your class choice.

What's could likely happen is that the growing list of classes would be no different than any other MMO. You pick a class to fill a certain niche, role, and specialization. Along with that, certain classes absolutely lean more towards specific roles than other classes do

Leading to my other issue
The justification as to why the class as specializations exist is poor.
ESO says you can be Tank, Damage Dealer or Healer with any class. BUT Dragon Knight is more suited for playing a tank than Sorcerer is, that's why DK has the chain power to pull enemies.
-Sure you can use any weapon as a Sorcerer but it definitely leans more towards using staffs.
-Templars are holy warriors and/or holy healers. They are essentially paladins.
-Nightblades powers are practically tailored for assassins. Its in the name
-Dragon Knights are "skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit" why is everyone across Tamriel using the skill sets of foreign invaders? So in order to specialize in fire magic (something every culture has) I have to pick an Akaviri based class?
-Why would Nords use a class made by the Wood Elves? ALSO, if it does come from Valenwood, why are almost all Warden powers modeled after Morrowind centric animals??

If I want to make a Nature based Argonian character who uses nature magic. Ok Warden right? Oh if you are cool with Ice Powers then sure. But why would a class supposedly created in Valenwood (which is in the far south) be using ice powers? What if I want the nature magic but not the Ice powers?

So the Class system not only limits player choice in roles but it also limits them in their ability to create unique characters for both gameplay and role-playing.
Yes, this is an MMO but ZOS should be using more things from Elder Scrolls games to make it stand out from the other MMOs out there.
You can give players the option to specialize without having classes.
Have them choose between daedric an undead
between, Lightning, fire, and ice

To me it seems Obvious that after Skyrim, ZOS worked very hard to shift from standard MMO classes to a more open system akin to normal Elder Scrolls games and arrived at the middle ground when they launched. This is why ZOS has said that they are working towards making each class a DPS skill line, a Tanks skill line, and a Healing skill line.
Which again makes one ask why have classes if they can all be a healer, tank, or dps?

SSlarg

I would absolutely buy necromancer DLC!!

*Nudge nudge wink wink*

srnekro

srnekro wrote: »

Due to the severty of the issue. I made three posts. One to explain the mechanics, one to explain the lore and one to resume both points of view.

Here you can see the third post, the shorter version. Through it, you can find the Lore and Mechanics.

I just hope to shed some light on to this subject and to easy the hatred a little bit. And mostly important, to help you guys understand the beauty of this elegant class.

Cheers

To make sure that everyone understands that I move this thread to this three posts to be more organised.

Azurya

necromancy = nothing else as a sorcerer with dead corpes instead of pets

what tells us these facts? NO NEED FOR THIS!!!!!!!

BrianLovesLisa

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO wrote: »

The Class will never come. (But i love to see it happen)
The reason for that is a true Necromancer are able to take on a hole faction on his own = So how can they add a class like this ?

Well on the bright side you were wrong and you got the necromancer class, just like this thread got nerco posted