Necromancers

Aisle9

srnekro wrote: »

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Aisle9 wrote: »

Why is everyone obsessed with pet classes anyways, don't you have enough already ?

No. It is the same to ask, "Why is everyone obessed with close combat classes, mainly heavy armor with swords, anyways, don't you have enough already?"

You're comparing a class specific skill that only a specific class has access to, to a weapon skill everyone has access to.

Warden can summon a bear, and can use heavy armor and swords.
Nightblade cannot summon a bear, but can still use heavy armor and swords.

Here, you may find this interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

srnekro wrote: »

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VaranisArano wrote: »

srnekro wrote: »

4th, about Death doesnt like us to use his domain. Well, you can view that way. Or, or, listen carefully for this one. Death actully taught the first genaration of Necromancers and they pass this knowlege to future genaration. It's not like Death can't handle it's job, but have a legion of people following, it sure helps the process. Just like the whate ever God priests follow, the light for example, wouldn't like to see some random dude healing another random dude.

As an Elder Scroll Lore Fan, what?

You need to look at the actual in-game lore of necromancy. Start here: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy

There's plenty to like and enjoy about necromancy in the Elder Scrolls. Tons of lore. But it has very little to do with this generic necromancy fanboy stuff you've got going on here.

"Death doesnt like us to use his domain. Well, you can view that way. Or, or, listen carefully for this one. Death actully taught the first genaration of Necromancers and they pass this knowlege to future genaration"

No. Just no. That's not how that works in the Elder Scrolls. For one thing, you've got the Ideal Masters, an early Merethic era of necromancers who became ascended beings ruling the Soul Cairn where the souls of those trapped in soul gems wind up. And then you've got Mannimarco, the first of the famous necromancers, no hints of how he learned necromancy, only that he did but who becomes a lich and then eventually the God of Necromancers. Oh, and Arkay, the god of life and death, who absolutely, positively despised necromancy in all its forms. Plus the Dunmer/Chimer ancestor worship/magic that totally isn't necromancy, no serjo, not at all.

(There is no "Death" figure in the Elder Scrolls. Just Arkay, who despises necromancy, and Sithis, who is the Void and the primordial state of chaos who doesn't have anything to do with necromancy.)

That's a taste. There's a ton of fascinating Elder Scrolls lore about necromancy, which major subplots focusing on necromancy in Daggerfall and Oblivion, with plenty of necromancy in Skyrim and Morrowind, to say nothing of its presence in the entire base game of ESO. There's more than enough actual lore to justify including necromancy as a player ability in ESO.

But this generic necromancer fan stuff is bugging me when there is so much more interesting necromancer stuff in the actual Elder Scrolls lore. Call me a lore purist if you want, but if I'm going to support a necromancer class in the Elder Scrolls Online, I insist that the necromancers have to be Elder Scrolls necromancers.

about the arkay thingy, as I said, lore/history can be re-writen. As nothing is permanent on life. That said, just saying that the grudge arkay have towards Necomancer, it seems impossible to hold for ever. I get the point, me too if I was the god of Death, and see humans miss using necromancy (towards evil for example) I would too be pissed. Maybe, further on the lore, some one willr rise up and stand up for the "good"/rightfull use of Necromancy, and Arkay might change it'ts mind. Or maybe not, either way, all I want is to play as a Necromancer. All type of Necromancers are good for me. IF they raise a horde of undead and wear light armor and staff.

Necromancy is inherently evil because you recall the soul of the dead from their afterlife of choice to inhabit the body, therefore, no, in the game lore, there's no such thing as "using Necromancy for good". The process itself is supposed to be traumatic and painful for the soul.

The only accepted Necromancy is Dunmer's Ancestor Spirits, which decide to sacrifice their afterlife to protect their line, and that is only accepted among other Dunmer.

Also, there's the whole thing with the Worm Cult being necromancers, which is kinda frowned upon, considering the whole ESO story line...

Just saying

LukosCreyden

People in here saying that we cannot be necromancers because it is evil...

You do realize this is an Elder Scrolls game, right? The series that is well known for letting you act however the heck you want?

I mean, I can go into town and slaughter the innocent patrons of the local tavern enjoying a nice drink, but necromany is "too evil"?

Wut?

Aisle9

LukosCreyden wrote: »

People in here saying that we cannot be necromancers because it is evil...

You do realize this is an Elder Scrolls game, right? The series that is well known for letting you act however the heck you want?

I mean, I can go into town and slaughter the innocent patrons of the local tavern enjoying a nice drink, but necromany is "too evil"?

Wut?

LukosCreyden

@Aisle9 completely serious. Why wouldn't I be? Do you have a good counter-argument to present?

Edit: spelling

Aisle9

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@Aisle9 completely serious. Why wouldn't I be? Do you have a good counter-argument to present?

Are we playing the same game ? "Play as you want" in ESO ?

Regardless of the choices I make, regardless of the actions I take, nobody complains about me.

Hell, I kill someone in a tavern in front of a dozen witnesses, pay the fine, all good.

If you can point me to any evidence to the contrary, go ahead.

There are a number of actions that will force you (if you want to progress with the story) to complete heroic deeds, for which the populace will accept you as a hero, regardless of any meaningful choice(TM) you made in a sidequest.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's true that you have the choice to play your character the way you want, and be shunned by society for being a necromancer, and smell of dead bodies and embalming fluids, and be associated with the Public Enemies n.1 (Worm Cult).

Also, the OP's main argument was that:

srnekro wrote: »

[..]All I saying is, it is not the power that drives one to the evil side. Is ones heart that get corrupted and tempted to do so. If some do not resist the evil, they break and follow its path. Necromancy could be use for greater good. Give the recent fallen a second time to avenge their own deaths. Could decay and rot the very flesh of the ones who seeks to destry this world-OUR WORLD.

So... yeah, there's that... In the context of this specific discussion is kind of relevant if something is inherently evil and why ... just saying.

LukosCreyden

@Aisle9 Indeed, there has always been gameplay limitations. For example, I can walk around a city as a full on vampire and nobody bats an eye. Same for being a werewolf, in full werewolf form.

Of course, there is the main story, which has you face off against an evil necromancer and his daedric master, but fighting them does not mean you are automatically a paragon of justice. After all, my character spends much of their spare time stabbing innocent people's faces and taking their belongings. The Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild aren't exactly known for their love of charity and justice.

VaranisArano

Elder Scrolls necromancy isn't inherently evil. As I've stated before previous player characters are allowed to summon undead and reanimate dead enemies without being evil - though the town guards do frown on your undead minions (but Meridia and Arkay will still bless you, I dunno how that makes sense outside of gameplay restrictions).

Its just that all necromancy is opposed by Arkay and Meridia, and 99.9% of all necromancers we meet in the game are the sort who try to murder us on sight (excepting the one lady in Grahtwood, really).

So its sort of like arguing that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Necromancy isn't guaranteed to make you evil, but when the vast majority of necromancers are evil with the sole peaceful version of necromancy being Dunmer ancester worship, its easy to see why necromancy gets a horribly bad rap while still letting player characters do things like summon skeletons and reanimate dead foes.

Aisle9

On that, we disagree.

Ignore the side quest, and the DLCs.

Let's analyze the game at it's core, the main quests, and the story quest.

Whatever your motivations, whatever the background you imagine for your character, you are shoehorned into a path of virtue, There are no meaningful choices there,

You can't decide to take advantage of an attempt to the faction leader's life to kill them. You can't decide to say "I understand this NPC's motivation and I want to help the other faction".

Spoiler

You can't decide to join Lady Estre because you believe Altmers to be a superior race than Bosmers and Khajiits

You can't decide to poison the blood you give to save Jorunn, nor you can decide to not go into the dreamscape, or convince him to make the wrong choices so that he will die.

You can't decide to join Septima Tharn (an actual necromancer of great power) and not save King Emeric.

You can't betray the prophet and the others and join Mannimarco, by giving him the amulet of kings.

At the end you will be a paragon of justice regardless of your characterization. There's no Join the Dark Side option before the ending.

There's a very specific questline that, if I could, I would've handled very differently:

Spoiler

The whole Hound storyline, the main antagonist's motivation was understandable and during my first playthrough I manage to complete every single quest in the area, so I knew the whole story behind it. I could relate to him.

If given the choice, I would've sided with the Hound, even though my characterization was not particularly evil or even slightly abnormal, I was playing what you would call a Chaotic Good character.

There are other examples of things I would've done differently if given the choice.

Can't speak for the Dark Brotherhood, because it's only DLC I don't own, but the overwhelming majority of the people I talk with agree that, with the exception of the actual murder contracts, it's pretty tame.

Nowhere in the game there's a choice to willfully commit an act that may characterize you as evil, or even to deviate from the established path. No choice you make is meaningful.

You can call them "game limitations", but in the end, this is my whole point. You don't have that many choices. Surely you don't have the choice to play an evil character, other than in your imagination.

Aisle9

VaranisArano wrote: »

Elder Scrolls necromancy isn't inherently evil. As I've stated before previous player characters are allowed to summon undead and reanimate dead enemies without being evil - though the town guards do frown on your undead minions (but Meridia and Arkay will still bless you, I dunno how that makes sense outside of gameplay restrictions).

Its just that all necromancy is opposed by Arkay and Meridia, and 99.9% of all necromancers we meet in the game are the sort who try to murder us on sight (excepting the one lady in Grahtwood, really).

So its sort of like arguing that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Necromancy isn't guaranteed to make you evil, but when the vast majority of necromancers are evil with the sole peaceful version of necromancy being Dunmer ancester worship, its easy to see why necromancy gets a horribly bad rap while still letting player characters do things like summon skeletons and reanimate dead foes.

"Necromancy, commonly called The Black Arts, is a sub-school of Conjuration. Necromancy particularly deals with enslavement and utilization of involuntary souls and their bodies. School of Necromancy is also responsible for creation of black soul gems. "

Sure it's not.

If your gun shoots lead bullets, sure, your argument make sense.

If your gun shoots kittens, the simple act of shooting the gun will result in propelling a kitten into the air at great speed, which will most likely kill it, and surely injure it.

Good and Evil are social constructs ?

Alright, let's call it deviant behavior then.

LukosCreyden

@Aisle9 ...and sadly, that is where the problem lies. I call it gameplay limitations, but I see what you are saying.

You do need a good imagination / willingness to roleplay if you want to play a more villainous role. As for DB, murder is murder, going into a random tavern and killing the innocents in there is evil. If we looked at the Harborage quests alone, sure, good guy / girl vestige goes out to save Tamriel, I do wish there were more choices, but there we go.

However, this does not mean that more evil / chaotic things cannot be added to the game. Dark Brotherhood was added and suddenly, everyone who played a shining paragon of good can murder people in the streets as they wish. Using that logic, there is nothing stopping zenimax from adding a DLC that allows you to become a Necromancer, if they are willing to put the work in to make it... work. In the end, it is Zen's game, they will add what they see fit.


As for what the TC said, you technically CAN use necromancy for good, but that'd be very bizarre, using such a cruel form of magic for "good". Necromancy is inherently evil, which is one of the reasons I want it in the game.

Aisle9

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@Aisle9 ...and sadly, that is where the problem lies. I call it gameplay limitations, but I see what you are saying.

You do need a good imagination / willingness to roleplay if you want to play a more villainous role. As for DB, murder is murder, going into a random tavern and killing the innocents in there is evil. If we looked at the Harborage quests alone, sure, good guy / girl vestige goes out to save Tamriel, I do wish there were more choices, but there we go.

However, this does not mean that more evil / chaotic things cannot be added to the game. Dark Brotherhood was added and suddenly, everyone who played a shining paragon of good can murder people in the streets as they wish. Using that logic, there is nothing stopping zenimax from adding a DLC that allows you to become a Necromancer, if they are willing to put the work in to make it... work. In the end, it is Zen's game, they will add what they see fit.


As for what the TC said, you technically CAN use necromancy for good, but that'd be very bizarre, using such a cruel form of magic for "good". Necromancy is inherently evil, which is one of the reasons I want it in the game.

That's also the reason why most likely it's not going to happen.

DB and TG were added because there's always a DB and TG storyline in every TES, It was more like a streamlining of the title with the others. They already had FG and MG, there were 2 guilds left, they banked on the DLCs.

As I said, I can't talk about the DB storyline, but the TG ? Not evil, not even slightly.

Then again, your characterization can be w/e you want. You can imagine your character playing the long game and ingratiating all the major characters to then betray them in the end (that won't come). Won't argue with that.

LukosCreyden

@Aisle9 Honestly, we could go back and forth on this for quite a long time. At the end of it all, it is down to zeni. I will continue to hope that Necromancy is added, but it is their decision.

None of us can truly know what is coming next chapter, or the chapter after. I suppose that is part of the excitement. I don't think it is entirely outside the realm of possibility that we could see some options for our characters to do evil in the future. Only time will tell.

Either way, this has honestly been a fun discussion, so thanks for that!

VaranisArano

Aisle9 wrote: »

There's a very specific questline that, if I could, I would've handled very differently:

Spoiler

The whole Hound storyline, the main antagonist's motivation was understandable and during my first playthrough I manage to complete every single quest in the area, so I knew the whole story behind it. I could relate to him.

If given the choice, I would've sided with the Hound, even though my characterization was not particularly evil or even slightly abnormal, I was playing what you would call a Chaotic Good character.

A side note to the conversation but about the questline you would have handled differently?

Spoiler

Oh, Mara, no. That was not my take on it at all.

I mean, it sucks for the Hound that the girl he fell in love with is going to marry another guy. But that in no way entitles him to kidnap her, harm her family, systematically brainwash her through changing the story, and making a deal with the daedra in order to have her marry him when she herself is quite okay with marrying the Silvenar. Gwaering doesn't want the Hound, the Hound wants her and is willing to do a ton of extremely dubious things to get her.

I also played through the whole region and understand his motivation. His actions, entitlement, and refusal to actually respect the wishes of the woman he claimed he loved destroyed any sympathy I had for him in the beginning. The Hound was a toxic ex-boyfriend and Gwaering was well-rid of him by the end of the region.

A_G_G_R_O

I usually revive and post on threads from 2014, the forum Necromancer, it’s about deadly and evil.

Aisle9

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@Aisle9 Honestly, we could go back and forth on this for quite a long time. At the end of it all, it is down to zeni. I will continue to hope that Necromancy is added, but it is their decision.

None of us can truly know what is coming next chapter, or the chapter after. I suppose that is part of the excitement. I don't think it is entirely outside the realm of possibility that we could see some options for our characters to do evil in the future. Only time will tell.

Either way, this has honestly been a fun discussion, so thanks for that!

Sure mate, np.

VaranisArano wrote: »

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Aisle9 wrote: »

There's a very specific questline that, if I could, I would've handled very differently:

Spoiler

The whole Hound storyline, the main antagonist's motivation was understandable and during my first playthrough I manage to complete every single quest in the area, so I knew the whole story behind it. I could relate to him.

If given the choice, I would've sided with the Hound, even though my characterization was not particularly evil or even slightly abnormal, I was playing what you would call a Chaotic Good character.

A side note to the conversation but about the questline you would have handled differently?

Spoiler

Oh, Mara, no. That was not my take on it at all.

I mean, it sucks for the Hound that the girl he fell in love with is going to marry another guy. But that in no way entitles him to kidnap her, harm her family, systematically brainwash her through changing the story, and making a deal with the daedra in order to have her marry him when she herself is quite okay with marrying the Silvenar. Gwaering doesn't want the Hound, the Hound wants her and is willing to do a ton of extremely dubious things to get her.

I also played through the whole region and understand his motivation. His actions, entitlement, and refusal to actually respect the wishes of the woman he claimed he loved destroyed any sympathy I had for him in the beginning. The Hound was a toxic ex-boyfriend and Gwaering was well-rid of him by the end of the region.

The things you do for love.

That beside the point, though, my point was that I didn't have a choice in that regard. If I thought as you did, and the quest was the other way around, the point would've been the same.

VaranisArano

Aisle9 wrote: »

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LukosCreyden wrote: »

@Aisle9 Honestly, we could go back and forth on this for quite a long time. At the end of it all, it is down to zeni. I will continue to hope that Necromancy is added, but it is their decision.

None of us can truly know what is coming next chapter, or the chapter after. I suppose that is part of the excitement. I don't think it is entirely outside the realm of possibility that we could see some options for our characters to do evil in the future. Only time will tell.

Either way, this has honestly been a fun discussion, so thanks for that!

Sure mate, np.

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

There's a very specific questline that, if I could, I would've handled very differently:

Spoiler

The whole Hound storyline, the main antagonist's motivation was understandable and during my first playthrough I manage to complete every single quest in the area, so I knew the whole story behind it. I could relate to him.

If given the choice, I would've sided with the Hound, even though my characterization was not particularly evil or even slightly abnormal, I was playing what you would call a Chaotic Good character.

A side note to the conversation but about the questline you would have handled differently?

Spoiler

Oh, Mara, no. That was not my take on it at all.

I mean, it sucks for the Hound that the girl he fell in love with is going to marry another guy. But that in no way entitles him to kidnap her, harm her family, systematically brainwash her through changing the story, and making a deal with the daedra in order to have her marry him when she herself is quite okay with marrying the Silvenar. Gwaering doesn't want the Hound, the Hound wants her and is willing to do a ton of extremely dubious things to get her.

I also played through the whole region and understand his motivation. His actions, entitlement, and refusal to actually respect the wishes of the woman he claimed he loved destroyed any sympathy I had for him in the beginning. The Hound was a toxic ex-boyfriend and Gwaering was well-rid of him by the end of the region.

The things you do for love.

That beside the point, though, my point was that I didn't have a choice in that regard. If I thought as you did, and the quest was the other way around, the point would've been the same.

Which is fair. Its a sprawling game with a lot of players and I don't expect ZOS to allow options that make the game too complicated or that would carry over to other zones. My imagination has to suffice for that.

Aisle9

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

I usually revive and post on threads from 2014, the forum Necromancer, it’s about deadly and evil.

This one is pretty fresh, tho, I guess the argument comes back once in a while.

gepe87

Meridia Champion as a necromancer? It would be a paradox... You know.. She hates dead things...Stay close to lore please

VaranisArano

gepe87 wrote: »

Meridia Champion as a necromancer? It would be a paradox... You know.. She hates dead things...Stay close to lore please

It'd be weird, sure, but I can be reanimating the bodies of my dead enemies all over the place and Meridia will still hand me Dawnbreaker without turning a hair in Skyrim. I can even be a vampire for extra lulz. So there's some precedent for it in past games.

Sometimes I think the true power of an Elder Scrolls hero is gamplay/lore separation.

Kuramas9tails

If I was a Necromancer, I'd reanimate all the dead players just laying around in a keep we just took and have them become guards. Better than a tbag.

VaranisArano

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

If I was a Necromancer, I'd reanimate all the dead players just laying around in a keep we just took and have them become guards. Better than a tbag.

*Cue whining from Templars about no corpses for Repentance*

srnekro

There are two types of dead, don't forget.

Those who got murdered. Who perish with time. Those who die "inocent".

And then, there's that lot. Murderes, butchers, and others siners.
Now, don't you think that "Death penalty" would be to easy for them? Take *** and murderes for example. Instead of killing them and let their soul rest, why not rise them once again and make them fight for our Tamiriel?

That, my friends, would be a "good" use of Necromancy.

Don't forget that sinners walk among us. Necromancers are the hand, the darkness that reaches and aid when no one else can.

srnekro

Inhuman003

I love the lore of the Elder Scrolls there are no getting out of necromancy for good or worse.

JamuThatsWho

I'm not gonna lie, I'd love a Necromancer. It's my absolute favourite fantasy class. I still play my Skelemancer on Diablo 2 USEast from time to time. There's something immensely satisfying about raising an army to crush everything in front of you.

I also love DoTs; curses, poison/disease, etc. slowly eating away at your target. I love the strategic element of self-sacrifice in exchange for greater power, like the GW2 Necro.

It could also make an interesting healer, transferring enemy HP to allies, or even a tank where a giant summon does the actual tanking, taking orders from the Necro (like a beefed-up WoW Voidwalker).

However, ESO has firmly established Necros as "the enemy", especially in the upcoming DLC, so I don't know how ZOS would ratify that with a playable version.

srnekro

JamuThatsWho wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I'd love a Necromancer. It's my absolute favourite fantasy class. I still play my Skelemancer on Diablo 2 USEast from time to time. There's something immensely satisfying about raising an army to crush everything in front of you.

I also love DoTs; curses, poison/disease, etc. slowly eating away at your target. I love the strategic element of self-sacrifice in exchange for greater power, like the GW2 Necro.

It could also make an interesting healer, transferring enemy HP to allies, or even a tank where a giant summon does the actual tanking, taking orders from the Necro (like a beefed-up WoW Voidwalker).

However, ESO has firmly established Necros as "the enemy", especially in the upcoming DLC, so I don't know how ZOS would ratify that with a playable version.

Like WoW did with the DeathKnights or DemonHunters. By using enemy's strength against them. Allowing players to create Necromancers to fight against "evil" Necromancers.

Chaos2088

I would love to have a Necromancer class! Would roll out a mag dps one and a healer (depending on class skills).

I do not understand why people are against it. This is a MMO! they will be bringing out new classes along the history of the game, it is going to happen. If you don't want to play a Necromancer....it is simple....don't. Just because Zos would give people the option does not mean you would have to.

They stated in an ESO live episode a few moons ago that they was a "dark sorcerer" they were working on. A New class is a lot of work for the system of this game. Do not expect it soon. But as stated above...new classes are going to be a thing..

Bring them on I say!

Also bring on Battlemages, Berserkers, Minstrels, Monks, Dwemer-type/techo mage!

ThePrinceOfBargains

gepe87 wrote: »

Meridia Champion as a necromancer? It would be a paradox... You know.. She hates dead things...Stay close to lore please

Vampirism says hello. If she excuses the fact that you yourself are undead, she excuses necromancy. I don’t recall her declaring us to be her champion anyway.

jnelson1182

wouldn't a necromancer class be almost the exact same as the sorcerer class only difference would be the pets, instead of a twilight or monarch a necromancer would have to summon either some form of a demon or zombie anything dead lol.

JamuThatsWho

srnekro wrote: »

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JamuThatsWho wrote: »

I'm not gonna lie, I'd love a Necromancer. It's my absolute favourite fantasy class. I still play my Skelemancer on Diablo 2 USEast from time to time. There's something immensely satisfying about raising an army to crush everything in front of you.

I also love DoTs; curses, poison/disease, etc. slowly eating away at your target. I love the strategic element of self-sacrifice in exchange for greater power, like the GW2 Necro.

It could also make an interesting healer, transferring enemy HP to allies, or even a tank where a giant summon does the actual tanking, taking orders from the Necro (like a beefed-up WoW Voidwalker).

However, ESO has firmly established Necros as "the enemy", especially in the upcoming DLC, so I don't know how ZOS would ratify that with a playable version.

Like WoW did with the DeathKnights or DemonHunters. By using enemy's strength against them. Allowing players to create Necromancers to fight against "evil" Necromancers.

That is my absolute favourite character MO and the exact reason I love Necros in other games.