Fake Healers

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

the title itself describes Wardens.

Tieberion

Me and my buddy had our first fake today. Guy/lady? tossed on a rest staff and xalled themselves a healer. So I pulled out every tank trick I knew and my Sorcerer buddy whipped out DPS like an old God and we managed to crawl through Fungal Grotto II.

Bevik

Fake tanks and healers are only issues in normal non-DLC dungeons if the DDs are really bad or they are low levels and new players. During the dungeon event I did most of my dungeons with 4 DDs or 3 DDs and healer. With good DDs even DLC dungeons are easy.

I would rather change the penalty system still. 5 minutes if you leave the party and 15-20 or 30 mins if you are kicked. Maybe the more time you get kicked the more you have to wait.

Insandros

Indeed people only want dps, numbers, numbers, big numbers, GO GO DPS DPS!

When i am on my healer, my thrill is to heal, profide ressources, buffs and debuffs mobs, that is my thrill, my thinking is, if i can provide a full DPS guy ressources and buffs for massive dps, my few dps will be way less effective than his. But again, some people love to have 10 toons and all play the same style and ***. i have 6 different toons and i wanna play different roles on tem to differ. When i wanna dps, i play a pure dps, i'm not gonna improvise myself as healer, cuz i have toons for this.

But again, if some people think they are wanna be hot playing healer and dps and their little dps can makes a difference well, i guess it's their thing, annoying but still, nothing you can do, ZoS wanted to come up with a stupid mentality of classes able to do everything.

But always make sme laugh when i see a healer wanna-be queing and thinking he his all hot and keep deing whiel tryign to ehal and dps, and when i see this and slot surge and vigor as pure dps and i survive the entire dungeon while wasting my damn shards resing him.

zaria

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

the title itself describes Wardens.

Players, warden is excelent healers, not quite as good as templars and harder to use than templars or sorcerer.
As said my main issue as warden healer in dungeons is low dps.
On the other hand I have run into lots of warden DD who use lots of healing skills even if its no issue with healing, if an issue ask healer to focus on healing, healer might also know dungeon better than you and know that boss has no fatal mechanics, just a few normals do,

A_G_G_R_O

A solid tank wearing troll kings and using vigor, better than 9/10 pug healers.

Bevik

zaria wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

the title itself describes Wardens.

Players, warden is excelent healers, not quite as good as templars and harder to use than templars or sorcerer.
As said my main issue as warden healer in dungeons is low dps.
On the other hand I have run into lots of warden DD who use lots of healing skills even if its no issue with healing, if an issue ask healer to focus on healing, healer might also know dungeon better than you and know that boss has no fatal mechanics, just a few normals do,

With pugs a Warden healer is bad. Sorry to say that but without skill like BoL and without any group coordination people end up dead. Happened many times. With a good DD, easy normal dungeon healing is not an issue, Vigor would do but a random Warden healer in Veteran content is a suicide.

Not saying it's impossible to be a good Warden healer. But very very rare. I wouldn't recomment to any inexperienced player, especially not for new players.

Sorry to talk against ZOS ideas because I really like ESO but thinking that any class can do any role is a bad design, especially in an MMO genre.

kypranb14_ESO

Jade1986 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

One_ofMany wrote: »

Seems like there has been an epidemic of fake healers this past week.
Some too busy doing DPS to bother with much healing and others not even healing at all. It's driving me crazy!
We really need a way to punish bad behavior like that. Maybe so many negative group votes/kicks in a week and they get locked out of the Activity Finder for a few days.

I'm a Magicka Nightblade healer, I would probably be kicked/downvoted from most dungeons because it looks like I'm just tending to DPS.

As far as I'm concerned, if my Funnel Health, Refreshing Path and emergency Ward Ally can't keep you alive in a normal non-DLC dungeon, YOU are the problem.

I got into a random dungeon earlier, the tank had 14.5K HP. What was DPS1 doing? His best. DPS2? Bow light attacking. BUT, nobody died. I didn't actively attempt to heal anyone, I just did DPS as the healer role.

I should not be punished for not meeting someone else's standards for my role, if I can't punish them for meeting my standards for their role.

Your a tank? You need to be perma-blocker with 40k+ health, capped resistances, has 0 downtime on taunts, and chains/talons every single add without fail. Otherwise, a downvote for you.

Your a DPS? You need to be doing 30k+ DPS. Otherwise you're too slow, and downvote for you.

Your a healer? Not running SPC or worm? I leave full health for more than 2 seconds? Downvote for you.

I would never require my group to have any of these things, but my point is it gives players too much power over other players. Even if someone is doing their role, they could be punished for not meeting someone else's standards.

To be clear, a fake healer is someone who cant even keep the teammates health over 33 %. If they can keep the people alive, i odnt have a problem, same with tanks, if they can stay alive, buff the team a little bit and keep the bosses busy, cool.

Then there needs to be a built in system in the game. If you're healing is under X% of your teams damage taken, and your team votes to kick you, you will get a strike.

Same for Tanks, if they hold boss aggro for less than X% of the time spent in combat with the boss, and get voted to kick, they get a strike.

DPS too, if your DPS is under X for normal, and Y for Veteran, and your team votes to kick you, you get a strike.

Players can still kick people they judge unworthy, but they won't be punished unless the game judges their performance so poor that it is truly deserved.

In order for that to be implemented they would have to make bows and othe weaker things stronger, and actually balance the game.

You can achieve on par DPS with bows for dungeons. I believe all content can be done as long as your DPS is 15k or higher.

If you're dual-slotting any weapon you gimp yourself. Bows are no different. It sucks that bows don't have great direct attacks for PVE, but it is what it is. 2H weapons are the same way. In fact, all 2H weapons should account for 2 items in a set to bring them on par with dual wield / S&B.

I'm going to go try to achieve 15k DPS with bows now, will be back in a bit.

troomar

All healers have a burst healing skill, it's called Healing Ward. Templars and Sorcerers don't use it, because they have their own skill that is better. Just read the description, you will find out it's a HUGE burst heal (although part of it comes as a shield).

kypranb14_ESO

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

One_ofMany wrote: »

Seems like there has been an epidemic of fake healers this past week.
Some too busy doing DPS to bother with much healing and others not even healing at all. It's driving me crazy!
We really need a way to punish bad behavior like that. Maybe so many negative group votes/kicks in a week and they get locked out of the Activity Finder for a few days.

I'm a Magicka Nightblade healer, I would probably be kicked/downvoted from most dungeons because it looks like I'm just tending to DPS.

As far as I'm concerned, if my Funnel Health, Refreshing Path and emergency Ward Ally can't keep you alive in a normal non-DLC dungeon, YOU are the problem.

I got into a random dungeon earlier, the tank had 14.5K HP. What was DPS1 doing? His best. DPS2? Bow light attacking. BUT, nobody died. I didn't actively attempt to heal anyone, I just did DPS as the healer role.

I should not be punished for not meeting someone else's standards for my role, if I can't punish them for meeting my standards for their role.

Your a tank? You need to be perma-blocker with 40k+ health, capped resistances, has 0 downtime on taunts, and chains/talons every single add without fail. Otherwise, a downvote for you.

Your a DPS? You need to be doing 30k+ DPS. Otherwise you're too slow, and downvote for you.

Your a healer? Not running SPC or worm? I leave full health for more than 2 seconds? Downvote for you.

I would never require my group to have any of these things, but my point is it gives players too much power over other players. Even if someone is doing their role, they could be punished for not meeting someone else's standards.

To be clear, a fake healer is someone who cant even keep the teammates health over 33 %. If they can keep the people alive, i odnt have a problem, same with tanks, if they can stay alive, buff the team a little bit and keep the bosses busy, cool.

Then there needs to be a built in system in the game. If you're healing is under X% of your teams damage taken, and your team votes to kick you, you will get a strike.

Same for Tanks, if they hold boss aggro for less than X% of the time spent in combat with the boss, and get voted to kick, they get a strike.

DPS too, if your DPS is under X for normal, and Y for Veteran, and your team votes to kick you, you get a strike.

Players can still kick people they judge unworthy, but they won't be punished unless the game judges their performance so poor that it is truly deserved.

In order for that to be implemented they would have to make bows and othe weaker things stronger, and actually balance the game.

You can achieve on par DPS with bows for dungeons. I believe all content can be done as long as your DPS is 15k or higher.

If you're dual-slotting any weapon you gimp yourself. Bows are no different. It sucks that bows don't have great direct attacks for PVE, but it is what it is. 2H weapons are the same way. In fact, all 2H weapons should account for 2 items in a set to bring them on par with dual wield / S&B.

I'm going to go try to achieve 15k DPS with bows now, will be back in a bit.

With only purple gear, and 300 CP I was able to achieve 14k DPS as a Wood Elf Stamblade with a bow on my main attack bar. I did not change enchantments on any of the gear either, which would have greatly improved my DPS.

I should also mention I didn't use "expensive" potions for Major Brutality and Major Savagery, I slotted Expert Hunter and Rally for those buffs. Using potions would again, increase my DPS.

I don't play stamina based classes at all. I only play Magicka classes, and main a Magicka Nightblade. The rotation was a StamNoob thrown together pile of trash.

By the time I hit CP160 I had already had crafted my own Julianos Fire Staff, armor, made the staff gold and the armor purple. This was without using chat or guild traders to make money, just selling crap to merchants. I bought the research time reduction scrolls to reduce the amount of time research would take.

My point is, anyone could make it happen. There is no excuse to have less than 10k DPS if you're 160+ CP.

kypranb14_ESO

troomar wrote: »

All healers have a burst healing skill, it's called Healing Ward. Templars and Sorcerers don't use it, because they have their own skill that is better. Just read the description, you will find out it's a HUGE burst heal (although part of it comes as a shield).

Agreed, I have seen Healing Ward heal as high as 40k before. It's pretty funny.

jaye63

D0PAMINE wrote: »

I queue as a DPS and ALWAYS get stuck healing. Its not fair to me or the rest of the group. I can solo normals so thats why I queue as a DPS. I have to do extra work because there are players in the group who may need heals? Low level players are not the problem. Fake players are.

I leave. I can handle more time in the queue.

Dracane

I'm running a high damage tank build and I admit, I always make my low CP friend flag himself as a healer, so we always get fast group finder queues. He is a DD obviously Because let's be honest, most of the dungeons can be done without a healer and I think it's not too much to ask for stam builds to have vigor or momentum and for magicka builds to have a damage shield, in case they need survival.

Also, when things die fast, they don't put up as much of a fight. We are mighty and we need nobody else to keep us alive, we reject the holy trinity.

jaye63

Dracane wrote: »

I'm running a high damage tank build and I admit, I always make my low CP friend flag himself as a healer, so we always get fast group finder queues. He is a DD obviously Because let's be honest, most of the dungeons can be done without a healer and I think it's not too much to ask for stam builds to have vigor or momentum and for magicka builds to have a damage shield, in case they need survival.

Also, when things die fast, they don't put up as much of a fight. We are mighty and we need nobody else to keep us alive, we reject the holy trinity.

Ok... let's see you do a vMazzatun without a healer.

firedrgn

In normal dungeons almost anyone can off heal. I off heal ao we cam get the role filled and get one with it.
Some of the vet can be off healed also. Tank is more important.

FrancisCrawford

Bevik wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

the title itself describes Wardens.

Players, warden is excelent healers, not quite as good as templars and harder to use than templars or sorcerer.
As said my main issue as warden healer in dungeons is low dps.
On the other hand I have run into lots of warden DD who use lots of healing skills even if its no issue with healing, if an issue ask healer to focus on healing, healer might also know dungeon better than you and know that boss has no fatal mechanics, just a few normals do,

With pugs a Warden healer is bad. Sorry to say that but without skill like BoL and without any group coordination people end up dead. Happened many times. With a good DD, easy normal dungeon healing is not an issue, Vigor would do but a random Warden healer in Veteran content is a suicide.

Not saying it's impossible to be a good Warden healer. But very very rare. I wouldn't recomment to any inexperienced player, especially not for new players.

Sorry to talk against ZOS ideas because I really like ESO but thinking that any class can do any role is a bad design, especially in an MMO genre.

I healed City of Ash 2 last week on a warden who was Level 46 or so at the time. It was the first time I'd ever been in the dungeon, although I had watched a video. (He's one of the characters I've been leveling via Random Normals.)

But of course that was in normal mode.

We did have one wipe because I wasn't careful enough at that groundpounding boss.

Houshiki

Dracane wrote: »

I'm running a high damage tank build and I admit, I always make my low CP friend flag himself as a healer, so we always get fast group finder queues. He is a DD obviously Because let's be honest, most of the dungeons can be done without a healer and I think it's not too much to ask for stam builds to have vigor or momentum and for magicka builds to have a damage shield, in case they need survival.

Also, when things die fast, they don't put up as much of a fight. We are mighty and we need nobody else to keep us alive, we reject the holy trinity.

And this is a problem, the notion of tanks and/or healers not being needed being self-propagated. That aside, you don't need a healer right? go run Bloodroot Forge, or Falkreath Hold.

FrancisCrawford

If I lag behind for whatever reason, what usually happens is:

-- The group runs ahead quite successfully for a while.
-- Eventually, somebody types "Let's wait for the healer".

Slick_007

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It's not really a matter of liking them but as a means to show that it's not alright to burden others because you want a faster queue with little to no intention of fulfilling their chosen role.

That fact you're defending these players is far more troublesome to me than the temporary ban OP is suggesting.

its more than im stopping some tosspot having the ability to ban people they dont like. or cant you understand that no player should have that power? it is a matter of like or not, because if this got implement do you seriously think people will only use it for 'fake' roles? you'r delusional and its sickening you are defending this idea.

TazESO

I dislike both fake tanks and fake healers, but on normals I am self sustaining on my DD so it doesn’t usually bother me. On vet dungeons, I usually just leave after a few wipes.

The ones defending the practice... well, I think we found some of the guilty parties

ArchMikem

Juju_beans wrote: »

It's threads like this that make me think I'll never bring my healer into a dungeon using group finder.
I like healing and ESO makes it easier than some other games.
I haven't grouped as a healer but have healed others at dolmens, delves and in public dungeons on my Templar cause that's just what a healer does.

If you're casting more than just Breath of Life or Springs, then you're already a pretty good Healer and should do just fine in Group Dungeons. Healing is the easiest job in the game. All you need to do is make sure you're not just spamming a single skill the whole time.

One_ofMany

kypranb14_ESO wrote: »

One_ofMany wrote: »

Seems like there has been an epidemic of fake healers this past week.
Some too busy doing DPS to bother with much healing and others not even healing at all. It's driving me crazy!
We really need a way to punish bad behavior like that. Maybe so many negative group votes/kicks in a week and they get locked out of the Activity Finder for a few days.

I'm a Magicka Nightblade healer, I would probably be kicked/downvoted from most dungeons because it looks like I'm just tending to DPS.

As far as I'm concerned, if my Funnel Health, Refreshing Path and emergency Ward Ally can't keep you alive in a normal non-DLC dungeon, YOU are the problem.

I got into a random dungeon earlier, the tank had 14.5K HP. What was DPS1 doing? His best. DPS2? Bow light attacking. BUT, nobody died. I didn't actively attempt to heal anyone, I just did DPS as the healer role.

I should not be punished for not meeting someone else's standards for my role, if I can't punish them for meeting my standards for their role.

Your a tank? You need to be perma-blocker with 40k+ health, capped resistances, has 0 downtime on taunts, and chains/talons every single add without fail. Otherwise, a downvote for you.

Your a DPS? You need to be doing 30k+ DPS. Otherwise you're too slow, and downvote for you.

Your a healer? Not running SPC or worm? I leave full health for more than 2 seconds? Downvote for you.

I would never require my group to have any of these things, but my point is it gives players too much power over other players. Even if someone is doing their role, they could be punished for not meeting someone else's standards.

-- I don't visually inspect players. I have no idea what they wearing or what class they look like etc.. I'm only concerned with the Healing. If the whole group or most of it keeps dying then there is a problem.

Magdalina

Bevik wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

the title itself describes Wardens.

Players, warden is excelent healers, not quite as good as templars and harder to use than templars or sorcerer.
As said my main issue as warden healer in dungeons is low dps.
On the other hand I have run into lots of warden DD who use lots of healing skills even if its no issue with healing, if an issue ask healer to focus on healing, healer might also know dungeon better than you and know that boss has no fatal mechanics, just a few normals do,

With pugs a Warden healer is bad. Sorry to say that but without skill like BoL and without any group coordination people end up dead. Happened many times. With a good DD, easy normal dungeon healing is not an issue, Vigor would do but a random Warden healer in Veteran content is a suicide.

Not saying it's impossible to be a good Warden healer. But very very rare. I wouldn't recomment to any inexperienced player, especially not for new players.

Sorry to talk against ZOS ideas because I really like ESO but thinking that any class can do any role is a bad design, especially in an MMO genre.

I don't have a Warden but I know I could confidently heal most content using JUST resto staff skills. You overrate how "hard" most dungeons are. With exception of some dlc dungeons mechanics, if a player needs BoL spam to stay alive that's the player's fault, and they might as well take a lesson out of that. For everything else, Healing Ward will work for a burst heal just fine.

Slick_007 wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

It's not really a matter of liking them but as a means to show that it's not alright to burden others because you want a faster queue with little to no intention of fulfilling their chosen role.

That fact you're defending these players is far more troublesome to me than the temporary ban OP is suggesting.

its more than im stopping some tosspot having the ability to ban people they dont like. or cant you understand that no player should have that power? it is a matter of like or not, because if this got implement do you seriously think people will only use it for 'fake' roles? you'r delusional and its sickening you are defending this idea.

But we already have a vote to kick option. This isn't that much worse, if at all.

Though frankly, while I do get annoyed by fake healers and tanks in vet dungeons I get even more annoyed with fake dps. Which we have a lot more of, tbh, even though most of that is unintentional. Why don't we talk about all the people who are pulling ~5k dps in vet dungeons instead?

Liley

I don't care if they are fake healers as long as they have one healing skill slotted for moments when damage is coming in. I can heal and shield myself, but there are other players, they can't do that, because they are new or whatever. If they don't have a single healing skill slotted I get kinda annoyed when poeple start dying.

Dracane

jaye63 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I'm running a high damage tank build and I admit, I always make my low CP friend flag himself as a healer, so we always get fast group finder queues. He is a DD obviously Because let's be honest, most of the dungeons can be done without a healer and I think it's not too much to ask for stam builds to have vigor or momentum and for magicka builds to have a damage shield, in case they need survival.

Also, when things die fast, they don't put up as much of a fight. We are mighty and we need nobody else to keep us alive, we reject the holy trinity.

Ok... let's see you do a vMazzatun without a healer.

Read before you shame.
I said "most" and by that, I mean all pledges given by the wood elf and the redguard, all base dungeons.
I don't need a healer for anything, not even the DLC pledges, as I am running a high risk high reward shield build. When I make a mistake, then no healer can safe me. As long as I play perfectly, I need nothing. It seems I must be super cautious and explain everything perfectly, for forum people to understand things. You look for every little mistake. Annoying

But yea I would never try doing the DLC dungeons without a healer. Because there are bosses, that will wipe my allies without proper heal. My friend is still 250 CP, which is too low for my taste. As long as he has not ascended to be a proper DD, I will not do DLC dungeons and flag him as a DD.

Invoca

@Dracane In the low level base dungeons though you'll occasionally get a new player that need healing because they don't have the experience or self-heals that many expect a higher DD to have. What happens then? Genuinely curious and not trying to catch you out or anything.

It's just that when I've gone into for example normal Banished Cells I with a fake healer it's usually ended up with a few deaths of small ones (when I was new it was me who died as well). As a new stam DD I once had to slot Blood Altar to prevent us from wiping because of a fake healer (CP100-ish) who had no group heals whatsoever.

Dracane

Invoca wrote: »

@Dracane In the low level base dungeons though you'll occasionally get a new player that need healing because they don't have the experience or self-heals that many expect a higher DD to have. What happens then? Genuinely curious and not trying to catch you out or anything.

It's just that when I've gone into for example normal Banished Cells I with a fake healer it's usually ended up with a few deaths of small ones (when I was new it was me who died as well). As a new stam DD I once had to slot Blood Altar to prevent us from wiping because of a fake healer (CP100-ish) who had no group heals whatsoever.

I carry them through. Daily dungeons are so easy, we do not need a strong group.
I really take great care of taunting almost all trash mobs, to prevent them from taking any damage.

There was a time, where I kicked everything below 500cp. But I realized, that CP aren't even as important as I thought and that it doesn't take a full Cp group to reliably clear dungeons. But yea from my experience, this last boss of banished cells I as you've mentioned is always a disaster These unpredictable 20k nuke balls usually 1 shot low CP players. Well, 1 shots can't be cured by a healer anyway. Oh and also, it gives me a nice feeling to be forced to work harder, because my group does less and it can be very satisfying to be the last person standing on a boss and win.

Gallowmere

As a tank main i don't rly mind fake healers as long as they can do a descent amount of dmg.
I can sustain my self more or less & so can any average DPS player, as long as he can focus on healing in critical situations/hard parts of dungeon & help the rest of the run go faster then i couldn't care less if he is a full healer or fake healer.

What i rly mind tho and its the reason i find myself leaving a PuG most of the time are "fake" aka trash-tier DPS.

Slick_007

Magdalina wrote: »

But we already have a vote to kick option. This isn't that much worse, if at all.

Though frankly, while I do get annoyed by fake healers and tanks in vet dungeons I get even more annoyed with fake dps. Which we have a lot more of, tbh, even though most of that is unintentional. Why don't we talk about all the people who are pulling ~5k dps in vet dungeons instead?

really? the ability to ban people using group finder for days isnt that much worse? Are you kidding? This ability that would be decided by tosspot players who already abuse the votekick option. Not much worse? Do you even understand what you said?

Dracane

Slick_007 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

But we already have a vote to kick option. This isn't that much worse, if at all.

Though frankly, while I do get annoyed by fake healers and tanks in vet dungeons I get even more annoyed with fake dps. Which we have a lot more of, tbh, even though most of that is unintentional. Why don't we talk about all the people who are pulling ~5k dps in vet dungeons instead?

really? the ability to ban people using group finder for days isnt that much worse? Are you kidding? This ability that would be decided by tosspot players who already abuse the votekick option. Not much worse? Do you even understand what you said?

From my experience, you rarely get kick votes through. Me and my friend vote, but the 3rd person usually never does. Probably because they expect to be kicked as well, once the 4th one is gone (which is correct)
I wish, the group leaders voice would count as 2 votes.