Many people againts Necro with the excuse of Lore and mah immersion... so..
-
opaj✭✭✭✭✭
And I don't quite understand why you're so dead set on making sure they can't play the way they want. Using the past games as precedent, not only did NPCs hardly complain when you used necromancy around them, you could actually purchase necromantic spells like Summon Zombie from the Mages Guild in TES IV. If you wanted to behave like a proper necromancer in those games (hiding from society to use your dark magics), then that was up to you, the player. While I would of course prefer the game to react properly to taboos, I can see the practical reasons for not doing that in ESO specifically, so...You can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
Why can't we just let the players have their necromancy? I wouldn't play one, personally, but raising the dead is kind of a staple of the series at this point.2 -
victoriana-blue✭✭✭✭
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.CP 750+
Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account2 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭victoriana-blue wrote: »
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.
Ok...it's from ESO..the game you're saying it doesn't fit in lore-wise? That doesn't exactly help the case against playable necromancy. It in fact, helps a necromancer class!! If it comes from in the game, how can anyone possibly say it doesn't fit lore??!!
Thank you for inadvertently proving my point!!
"Says playable necromancy doesn't fit into lore...points out information comes from a in game "lorebook"...."
There goes that argument!! Not only does it fit in lore, it's pointed out in a in game lorebook! That is hilarious!
Edited by Kel on December 30, 2017 7:56PM3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭victoriana-blue wrote: »
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.
It does not matter what game it appears in. ZOS and BGS claim to work together on lore. Given what appears in the BGS games, it could easily have been written by Bethesda Game Studios.2 -
LapisLazuli99✭✭✭I'm very confused? Necromancy isn't lore friendly but Necromancers in every elder scrolls game. I mean in ESO they travel in packs XDXbox One - NA
GT - Lapis Lazuli 99
AD - Orc Dragonknight
AD - Breton Sorcerer
AD - High Elf Nightblade
AD - High Elf Templar
AD - Wood Elf Warden
AD - Khajiit Necromancer
AD - High Elf Arcanist1 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes, because people who magically make fire appear in their hands are totally incapable of using it as a whip just-because, or spitting it from their mouth just-because, or using it as a defensive shell just-because.
Meanwhile, necromancy is lore friendly as an action (the point being made about the dragonknight, which doesn't relate to the actual point people argue against necro class with at all) as can be seen in-game with many many enemies. However, it isn't lorefriendly that the pc would be running around as the champion of meridia in the fighter's and mage's guilds while raising the dead next to the hordes of bad guys that also raise the dead during the freaking planemeld, without the local guards raising a few eyebrows (and swords).
Why do I even bother peeking back at these forums, and picking a troll thread of all things to respond to...Edited by KochDerDamonen on December 30, 2017 9:30PMIf you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].1 -
victoriana-blue✭✭✭✭
For the record, I think that a necromancer class has more basis than the warden.victoriana-blue wrote: »
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.
Ok...it's from ESO..the game you're saying it doesn't fit in lore-wise? That doesn't exactly help the case against playable necromancy. It in fact, helps a necromancer class!! If it comes from in the game, how can anyone possibly say it doesn't fit lore??!!
Thank you for inadvertently proving my point!!
"Says playable necromancy doesn't fit into lore...points out information comes from a in game "lorebook"...."
There goes that argument!! Not only does it fit in lore, it's pointed out in a in game lorebook! That is hilarious!
I was wondering if you're basing your argument on faulty presumptions, i.e. that UESP is somehow official and that Bethesda TES teams & ZOS somehow share large numbers of people. Mistakes about basic facts make me question the basis of the entire argument, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
(UESP is a fabulous resource, I love it, but it's the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages, after all.)CP 750+
Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account0 -
victoriana-blue✭✭✭✭
Simple mistakes can scuttle an entire argument, and a fan page can't be cited as the word of Todd Howard. /shruglordrichter wrote: »victoriana-blue wrote: »
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.
It does not matter what game it appears in. ZOS and BGS claim to work together on lore. Given what appears in the BGS games, it could easily have been written by Bethesda Game Studios.
From what I can see, ZOS has made a lot of design compromises because of the MMO parts of this game (versus the single player games) so I take the lore in this game with a grain of salt and look for corroboration elsewhere. Compromises are important, we couldn't have fast travel without it, but they create discrepancies and individual players have to decide what to do with them. Lawrence has final say, but there's no way he could be approving every single thing that happens.. Though I'm happy to be corrected if he does.
(ETA: So when you have a book in one game, written in-universe with an unreliable narrator, it's not a magic discussion-winning argument.)
Put another way, I see ESO as deuterocanon to the main games - it's not wrong, but not everyone accepts all of it as canon or lore.Edited by victoriana-blue on December 30, 2017 10:00PMCP 750+
Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭victoriana-blue wrote: »
Simple mistakes can scuttle an entire argument, and a fan page can't be cited as the word of Todd Howard. /shruglordrichter wrote: »victoriana-blue wrote: »
... Are you saying that the UESP is an official, Bethesda-run website? /headtiltYou can't explain this point to them. They don't listen. They just want to play as they want.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
"The debate over necromancy has been raging in magical circles for centuries. Advocates of the Dark Practice decry its censorship, lamenting the sacrifice of knowledge at the altar of public opinion. One argument they've been known to give is that attaining a proper and ethical understanding of necromancy is vital to best combat the menaces who have given the practice such an infamous reputation."
Except, again, this comes from the Bethesda lore page. How can you ignore what Bathesda has said...that not all necromancers are evil, and some are willing to fight the evil ones who give necromancy a bad name.
So I take from this is that it's you (thoes against the idea of playable necromancy, not you personally) who won't listen. Here is a clear example of why this can work in the lore...from Bethesda! But of course, you won't listen, because it blows apart your argument that it's not lore friendly, despite this clear example from the people who write the lore!
/facepalm...
That quote cites an in-game book, fwiw - The Great Debate, which is ESO-only and therefore not necessarily from Bethesda.
It does not matter what game it appears in. ZOS and BGS claim to work together on lore. Given what appears in the BGS games, it could easily have been written by Bethesda Game Studios.
From what I can see, ZOS has made a lot of design compromises because of the MMO parts of this game (versus the single player games) so I take the lore in this game with a grain of salt and look for corroboration elsewhere. Compromises are important, we couldn't have fast travel without it, but they create discrepancies and individual players have to decide what to do with them. Lawrence has final say, but there's no way he could be approving every single thing that happens.. Though I'm happy to be corrected if he does.
(ETA: So when you have a book in one game, written in-universe with an unreliable narrator, it's not a magic discussion-winning argument.)
Put another way, I see ESO as deuterocanon to the main games - it's not wrong, but not everyone accepts all of it as canon or lore.
My expectation is that Bethesda will be adopting the lore contributions, including updates, from ZOS. Right now, and probably for the next few years, it appears that ZOS is the keeper of the Elder Scrolls Lore as far as the RPG games are concerned. I think that BGS is too busy not doing Elder Scrolls to really care.0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yet another necromancer thread? Bah.
Yes, necromancers exist in TES lore. No, you will never play one in ESO, because they are always the antagonist, not the protagonist. Move on already.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorOther Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information5 -
Zordrage✭✭✭✭✭Yet another necromancer thread? Bah.
Yes, necromancers exist in TES lore. No, you will never play one in ESO, because they are always the antagonist, not the protagonist. Move on already.
i gonna sooo laugh on this when they release a necro class....
another pure necro hater...Edited by Zordrage on December 31, 2017 12:50AM3 -
Ajaxandriel✭✭✭✭✭The OP is just right. There is no good reason to forbid a Necromancer class or line other than "gameplay matter".
- You can roll a Nightblade...
- You can roll a Sorcerer that conjures Daedra...
- You can get Vampirism...
- You can get Undauntable skills such as necrotic orbs and bone shield (and that blood fountain)...
- You can join the (omg) Dark Brotherhood...
- There are loads of NPC necromancers everywhere. Worm cult, renegade schools, even pirates.
The only missing thing is the playable skeletton pet yet. (...And a functional game, for this kind of roleplay build to work/DPS properly :') )
I dislike vampires and necromancers, but them being playable is just legit. Indeed since Dragonknight is a thing.
Besides, I found the "I'm soooo hardcore, ZoS is ruining the True lore" purism and bigotry in this thread... quite fascinating.TESO:Triskelion - forum RP, guilde francophoneAjaxandriel - haut-elfe gardien 50 ;Altarya - haute-elfe templière 50 ;Angelith - elfe des bois gardienne 50 ;Antarius Scorpio - impérial chevalier-dragon 50 ;Artémidore de Corbeaulieu - bréton lame noire 50 ;Azothos Sadras - elfe noir sorcier 50 ;Celestras - haut-elfe sorcier 50 ;Diluviatar - elfe des mers sorcier 50 ;Dorguldun gro-Arash - orque sorcier 50 ;Hjarnar - nordique sorcier 50 ;Jendaya al-Gilane - rougegarde chevalier-dragon 50 ;Sabbathnazar Ullikummi - elfe noir chevalier-dragon 50 ;Selvaryn Virotès - elfe noire lame noire 50 ;Tahajmi - khajiit sorcière 50 ;Telernil - haut-elfe templier 50 ;Zadzadak - gobelin nécromancien 50 ;Zandoga - rougegarde chevalier-dragon 504 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ajaxandriel wrote: »The OP is just right. There is no good reason to forbid a Necromancer class or line other than "gameplay matter".
- You can roll a Nightblade...
- You can roll a Sorcerer that conjures Daedra...
- You can get Vampirism...
- You can get Undauntable skills such as necrotic orbs and bone shield (and that blood fountain)...
- You can join the (omg) Dark Brotherhood...
- There are loads of NPC necromancers everywhere. Worm cult, renegade schools, even pirates.
The only missing thing is the playable skeletton pet yet. (...And a functional game, for this kind of roleplay build to work/DPS properly :') )
I dislike vampires and necromancers, but them being playable is just legit. Indeed since Dragonknight is a thing.
Besides, I found the "I'm soooo hardcore, ZoS is ruining the True lore" purism and bigotry in this thread... quite fascinating.
None of that is comparable. Assassination has always been neutral in TES. It's a tool used by protagonists and by antagonists.
Vampires have always been neutral. There are good vamps like Ravenwatch and evil ones that you have to kill.
Conjuration is also neutral, and so is consorting with Daedra.
But necromancy has always been evil. AND the Worm Cult is one of the main antagonists of the main quest chain.
This isn't "bigotry" or "hating" or whatever childish label you people want to use--this wouldn't be an issue for any other MMO--this is ESO, where necromancers will always be an NPC class, never a playable one.Edited by code65536 on December 31, 2017 12:15PMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorOther Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information1 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭A necromancer character would be in no way against ESO’s lore. How could one state that they are the ‘bad guys’ when sorcerers already run around with conjured Daedra, the very creatures used by Molag Bal himself?With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner0 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »notimetocare wrote: »Where the hell Dragon Knights as a class came from into the game.......
Where those abilities came from to begin with.....because i don't remember to even SEE most of those so called DK abilities in other elderscrolls games...
Someone enlighten me....did i missed some lore about it... ? or we can just Stop this Whole no necro because immersion and Lore nonsense ?
because right now as i see it a Necro class would make way more sense then the Entire Dragon Knight class....
You ignore that Necromancy is currently yhe enemy of the word... Immersion. Nobody says it isnt lore friendly.
Most non-mages are very anti-necromancy. Most of the worm cult's current damage to the world is Necromancy (including many other groups raising the dead, defiling the dead and the like). Nobody is gong to trust a necromancer
and ? that wont stop us saving the world.... and does not stop the good necros existing....
This thing can be easily used on Vampires... i mean all those quest where everyone and their grandma thinks that Vampire are soooo BAD and naughty they should not exists its a plague yadayadayadaya... YET we can be one... DID IT BREAK anyones immersion or lore ? no....
Vampirism can be concealed. Plan not to revive corpses when fighting with others? Good luck saving the world when nobody wants to interact with you, or would logically want to murder you?
thats not how works... even if this would be irl stuff.... lol
Thats pretty much exactly how it works. The most glaring issue is that a Redguard in the Alikr storyline would never accept the help of a necromancers. Provided they did not outright murder you
One could say it is a glaring issue that a Pact or Dominion soldier could complete the storyline. Wouldn’t they be outright murdered? Oh, wait. The quests are about story, not realism. If they were, you’d never make it anywhere as a vampire (as it was in TES: III).With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner1 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ajaxandriel wrote: »The OP is just right. There is no good reason to forbid a Necromancer class or line other than "gameplay matter".
- You can roll a Nightblade...
- You can roll a Sorcerer that conjures Daedra...
- You can get Vampirism...
- You can get Undauntable skills such as necrotic orbs and bone shield (and that blood fountain)...
- You can join the (omg) Dark Brotherhood...
- There are loads of NPC necromancers everywhere. Worm cult, renegade schools, even pirates.
The only missing thing is the playable skeletton pet yet. (...And a functional game, for this kind of roleplay build to work/DPS properly :') )
I dislike vampires and necromancers, but them being playable is just legit. Indeed since Dragonknight is a thing.
Besides, I found the "I'm soooo hardcore, ZoS is ruining the True lore" purism and bigotry in this thread... quite fascinating.
None of that is comparable. Assassination has always been neutral in TES. It's a tool used by protagonists and by antagonists.
Vampires have always been neutral. There are good vamps like Ravenwatch and evil ones that you have to kill.
Conjuration is also neutral, and so is consorting with Daedra.
But necromancy has always been evil. AND the Worm Cult is one of the main antagonists of the main quest chain.
This isn't "bigotry" or "hating" or whatever childish label you people want to use--this wouldn't be an issue for any other MMO--this is ESO, where necromancers will always be an NPC class, never a playable one.
Guess who is THE main antagonist of the main questline? A Daedra.With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner4 -
Kiara✭✭✭Ajaxandriel wrote: »The OP is just right. There is no good reason to forbid a Necromancer class or line other than "gameplay matter".
- You can roll a Nightblade...
- You can roll a Sorcerer that conjures Daedra...
- You can get Vampirism...
- You can get Undauntable skills such as necrotic orbs and bone shield (and that blood fountain)...
- You can join the (omg) Dark Brotherhood...
- There are loads of NPC necromancers everywhere. Worm cult, renegade schools, even pirates.
The only missing thing is the playable skeletton pet yet. (...And a functional game, for this kind of roleplay build to work/DPS properly :') )
I dislike vampires and necromancers, but them being playable is just legit. Indeed since Dragonknight is a thing.
Besides, I found the "I'm soooo hardcore, ZoS is ruining the True lore" purism and bigotry in this thread... quite fascinating.
None of that is comparable. Assassination has always been neutral in TES. It's a tool used by protagonists and by antagonists.
Vampires have always been neutral. There are good vamps like Ravenwatch and evil ones that you have to kill.
Conjuration is also neutral, and so is consorting with Daedra.
But necromancy has always been evil. AND the Worm Cult is one of the main antagonists of the main quest chain.
This isn't "bigotry" or "hating" or whatever childish label you people want to use--this wouldn't be an issue for any other MMO--this is ESO, where necromancers will always be an NPC class, never a playable one.
You are wrong here. Skyrim offers you a few ways to play a necromancer, which is not illegal to use in College of Winterhold. Another thing is, you could conjure skeletons and other stuff in Morrowind/Oblivion already.
Necromancy has been legal for a long time in Cyrodiil and Mages guild before Oblivion Crysis.
Both Morrowind and Skyrim includes good necromancers (at least not plain evil).
Necromancy is neutral in the same way as is Daedra conjuring or vampirism in your statement.
Edited by Kiara on December 31, 2017 5:23PM3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
I still think the concept lacks enough content to actually fill out a full class. This a big one. How does the Necromancer fit into Tank, Healer, and DPS with enough variety in skills and abilities to fill the whole dance card? We can look at other games that have Necromancers, or similar, for ideas, and apply them to ESO, but I feel that all of these fill just one of the three skill lines in ESO.
This is why I think that if any necromancer skills become part of the game, it will be just a skill line that is part of a larger new class. In this, it would be the same way that the Assassin class is just a skill line of the Nightblade.
Maybe ZOS likes the idea, and maybe they like it enough to find enough content to make a full class. I dunno, but I personally don't expect that we will ever see "Necromancer" as a full class, on par with Sorcerer and the others.
2 -
emilyhyoyeon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
Maybe I'm not sure what you mean here, but the single player titles (can only speak for TES3 and beyond) are meant for creating a character in the world and playing as that character. The single player games don't discourage players from being evil bad guys or from being any kind of person in particular for that matter.
The previous games had their limitations in terms of making features, but there were ways in the vanilla games to play as an evil necromancer, for instance TES4 spell "reanimate" and TES5 spell "raise zombie" (if I'm understanding what you mean by "but the support in the TES games is really limited"). These conjuration spells in the games are as much support for a necromancer in the vanilla games as the support provided for playing any other kind of specific role.Edited by emilyhyoyeon on December 31, 2017 10:40PMIGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller & ghost hunter
main TES character: Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & ayleid researcher1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭emilyhyoyeon wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
Maybe I'm not sure what you mean here, but the single player titles (can only speak for TES3 and beyond) are meant for creating a character in the world and playing as that character. The single player games don't discourage players from being evil bad guys or from being any kind of person in particular for that matter.
The previous games had their limitations in terms of making features, but there were ways in the vanilla games to play as an evil necromancer, for instance TES4 spell "reanimate" and TES5 spell "raise zombie" (if I'm understanding what you mean by "but the support in the TES games is really limited"). These conjuration spells in the games are as much support for a necromancer in the vanilla games as any other kind of role.
Actually, the single player TES games do quite a bit to quietly discourage evil characters. More specifically, to encourage neutral and good characters over evil characters. That is one criticism of Bethesda from back in the Fallout 3 days. BGS definitely has a "good tilt" to their moral compass for the TES games, and some Fallout fans felt that bled into Fallout 3.
Specific to Necromancers, none of the single player TES games have a class, or a template, to create a necromancer. It just isn't a thing that BGS ever put an effort into. What they do offer is usually just a couple of spells in an overwhelmingly non-Necromancer magic system. That really doesn't set a strong pro-Necromancer precedent for the series, even if the player can cobble together what few things they offer for necromancy.
Again, I have to repeat. If ZOS does anything related to necromancy, and there are some cool things that they could do, I think it will not be in a "Necromancer" class. It will be in a more general class. Abilities related to necromancy will probably be limited to a single skill line within the class. The other two skill lines will deal with something else. Personally, I was thinking of some sort of a tribal Shaman class from deep in Black Marsh. There is much we don't know about that part of Tamriel and necromancy might fight nicely into that as part of a larger class.1 -
emilyhyoyeon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »emilyhyoyeon wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
Maybe I'm not sure what you mean here, but the single player titles (can only speak for TES3 and beyond) are meant for creating a character in the world and playing as that character. The single player games don't discourage players from being evil bad guys or from being any kind of person in particular for that matter.
The previous games had their limitations in terms of making features, but there were ways in the vanilla games to play as an evil necromancer, for instance TES4 spell "reanimate" and TES5 spell "raise zombie" (if I'm understanding what you mean by "but the support in the TES games is really limited"). These conjuration spells in the games are as much support for a necromancer in the vanilla games as any other kind of role.
Actually, the single player TES games do quite a bit to quietly discourage evil characters. More specifically, to encourage neutral and good characters over evil characters. That is one criticism of Bethesda from back in the Fallout 3 days. BGS definitely has a "good tilt" to their moral compass for the TES games, and some Fallout fans felt that bled into Fallout 3.
Specific to Necromancers, none of the single player TES games have a class, or a template, to create a necromancer. It just isn't a thing that BGS ever put an effort into. What they do offer is usually just a couple of spells in an overwhelmingly non-Necromancer magic system. That really doesn't set a strong pro-Necromancer precedent for the series, even if the player can cobble together what few things they offer for necromancy.
It doesn't really matter what kind of moral content Bethesda favors. The single player games are sandbox RPGs and by that nature encourage roleplaying whatever kind of role, even if a lot of the questlines make the character fight for the "good side," or there aren't a lot of vanilla ways to roleplay a certain character, etc. There are only a few specifically necromancer spells because "necromancy" has never been a "skill" in the games, so the spells blend into the magic schools without the label. Necromancer magic mainly stems from the conjuration school, but as a whole there are enough vanilla tools to roleplay a necromancer.
I guess ultimately I don't think the lack of necromancer as a class template in TES4 and older should matter when class templates aren't necessarily relevant to the player (unless the player doesn't have any ideas). Tbh I never looked at the class templates in Oblivion or Morrowind--I always create a custom class even though I'm sure I've selected the same skills of class templates for my customs in the end.
As for TESO, I can see how it would be difficult to make a necromancer class, in that it would be easier for necromancy to be one of the skill lines of a class instead. Maybe a better broader class would be "conjurer" with skill lines like:
Necromancy
Bound weapons and armors
Summon familiars (skeletons, zombies, etc specifically)
Soul trapping
If necromancer were the class, then skill lines could be:
Soul trapping/manipulation
Reanimation of bodiesIGN @ emilypumpkin, imperial pumpkin seller & ghost hunter
main TES character: Tullanisse Starborne, altmer battlemage & ayleid researcher0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭emilyhyoyeon wrote: »Maybe a better broader class would be "conjurer" with skill lines like:
Necromancy
Bound weapons and armors
Summon familiars (skeletons, zombies, etc specifically)
Soul trapping
If necromancer were the class, then skill lines could be:
Soul trapping/manipulation
Reanimation of bodies
Soul trapping is already in another skill line, but don't stop there. Some passive and active skill ideas ...
Reanimate bodies recently killed (temporary pets)
Summon an undead servant (persistent pet)
Curse the ground (AoE transfer health)
Curse target (target specific transfer health)
Undead (potentially over-powered "anti death" passive)
Stealing life (when low on health, passive recharges you by siphoning from a nearby enemy)
Edited by Elsonso on January 1, 2018 12:18AM1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This debate seems to have leapt from other conversations but I'll respond. The problem with a Necromancer class is not the class itself. I know you have argued that 'if' they made a Warden 'than' they should make Necromancer. The problem is Warden was already something partially developed in the past. It was intended to be released with the game and probably got shelved and considered to be sold later when it was completed. They need to push the product on the market out and didn't have time/money for it. Such is life. My own position is not that you shouldn't be able to play your Necromancer but that you start to look at things from a different point of view. I want more diversity in what we have already. I want the promise of Spellcrafting or at least special skill lines in the game to be made real. I want more weapons. I think all of my concept would allow the great push for exactly what you want.
On the matter of weapons I and others have suggested: Flails, Longspears, Shortspear+Shield, Wands, Corruption Staff (totally something you might use), Illusion Staff, Crossbows, and so on.
On the matter of skill lines they could very easily go with the old system of: Alteration, Destruction, Restoration, Mysticism, etc etc etc... and finally I would recommend they offer some kind of society or guild very specifically for Necromancers. It doesn't have to be just 5 skills either, nor would I want it to be. There are so many summons available in previous game and its a bit sad that most of them show up as set bonus items rather than a skill our characters can learn. I truly believe that what you want and what many of us want could work together. Consider for a moment that if you wanted to herd a bunch of monsters around the Sorcerer with the right alternate skills injected in would be perfect. Perhaps a nightblade would be good if you want to move about the shadows more (the ghostly fear move would be nice too). I really believe what is wanted could already be had. My personal hope is that they release spellcrafting but even just releasing various guilds and unlockable skill lines would make me happy. That's the ultimate hope here. I want to make it easier for them to open up cool stuff to us rather than have them release some annoying new class every year. Wouldn't you rather develop one of your old characters into exactly the Necromancer you wanted it to be? For goodness sake the class itself is meant to be a hidden art requires some difficulty to master. By merit of THEME (I'm not talking about lore) this would fit in with the narrative of the game a lot better as well. I suppose it possible you could have been a failed Necromancer or failed to do what you were told and Mannimarco chucks you on the altar. The whole thing seems odd though with that route, and makes more sense if your character is seduced into the noxious world after having been a monstrous being yourself and learned some of Molag Bal's ways.
Hopefully that helps you understand my perspective.
US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
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EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »emilyhyoyeon wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
Maybe I'm not sure what you mean here, but the single player titles (can only speak for TES3 and beyond) are meant for creating a character in the world and playing as that character. The single player games don't discourage players from being evil bad guys or from being any kind of person in particular for that matter.
The previous games had their limitations in terms of making features, but there were ways in the vanilla games to play as an evil necromancer, for instance TES4 spell "reanimate" and TES5 spell "raise zombie" (if I'm understanding what you mean by "but the support in the TES games is really limited"). These conjuration spells in the games are as much support for a necromancer in the vanilla games as any other kind of role.
Actually, the single player TES games do quite a bit to quietly discourage evil characters. More specifically, to encourage neutral and good characters over evil characters. That is one criticism of Bethesda from back in the Fallout 3 days. BGS definitely has a "good tilt" to their moral compass for the TES games, and some Fallout fans felt that bled into Fallout 3.
Specific to Necromancers, none of the single player TES games have a class, or a template, to create a necromancer. It just isn't a thing that BGS ever put an effort into. What they do offer is usually just a couple of spells in an overwhelmingly non-Necromancer magic system. That really doesn't set a strong pro-Necromancer precedent for the series, even if the player can cobble together what few things they offer for necromancy.
Again, I have to repeat. If ZOS does anything related to necromancy, and there are some cool things that they could do, I think it will not be in a "Necromancer" class. It will be in a more general class. Abilities related to necromancy will probably be limited to a single skill line within the class. The other two skill lines will deal with something else. Personally, I was thinking of some sort of a tribal Shaman class from deep in Black Marsh. There is much we don't know about that part of Tamriel and necromancy might fight nicely into that as part of a larger class.
I've heard that said and I find it hard to believe when so many bits of content are inherently evil. Trapping people in Soul Gems - Evil. Trapping sentient Daedra in soul gems to enslave them - Evil. Summoning and consorting with daedra - evil. Worshipping the gods of a death cult (either assassin guild) in your desire to send souls to hell. Worshipping the god of thievery as you go about stealing people's hard earned labor. Lets not even go into how almost every dunmer philosophy is 800 kinds of wicked. Lets not go into all the daedric relics meant to tease the hero away from good. If you cut out the evil stuff the games are practically gutted of content. So I have no idea what people are talking about when they say Skyrim is too 'goody goody'. The Companions are like Conan they are not like Sir Galahad. If anyone thinks otherwise they need to reconsider.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »I've heard that said and I find it hard to believe when so many bits of content are inherently evil. Trapping people in Soul Gems - Evil. Trapping sentient Daedra in soul gems to enslave them - Evil. Summoning and consorting with daedra - evil. Worshipping the gods of a death cult (either assassin guild) in your desire to send souls to hell. Worshipping the god of thievery as you go about stealing people's hard earned labor. Lets not even go into how almost every dunmer philosophy is 800 kinds of wicked. Lets not go into all the daedric relics meant to tease the hero away from good. If you cut out the evil stuff the games are practically gutted of content. So I have no idea what people are talking about when they say Skyrim is too 'goody goody'. The Companions are like Conan they are not like Sir Galahad. If anyone thinks otherwise they need to reconsider.
Great work. I never said that there was no evil. I merely said they steer the player away from it, using various game design methodologies. They do, and it is clear that this is deliberate.0 -
MythicEmperor✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
I still think the concept lacks enough content to actually fill out a full class. This a big one. How does the Necromancer fit into Tank, Healer, and DPS with enough variety in skills and abilities to fill the whole dance card? We can look at other games that have Necromancers, or similar, for ideas, and apply them to ESO, but I feel that all of these fill just one of the three skill lines in ESO.
This is why I think that if any necromancer skills become part of the game, it will be just a skill line that is part of a larger new class. In this, it would be the same way that the Assassin class is just a skill line of the Nightblade.
Maybe ZOS likes the idea, and maybe they like it enough to find enough content to make a full class. I dunno, but I personally don't expect that we will ever see "Necromancer" as a full class, on par with Sorcerer and the others.
I completely disagree with your reasoning, but not your conclusion. To put it simply, the Warden stole what could have made a Necromancer class. With frost magic out of the picture, there isn’t much there to shape an entire class, but I still hope for a World skill tree.lordrichter wrote: »emilyhyoyeon wrote: »lordrichter wrote: »
The main two reasons for not having a necromancer class remain. No other Elder Scrolls title has done it, and the main reason for that is that, as a class, they tend to be used as the evil bad guy. Sure, you can play with necromancer abilities, but the support in the TES games is really limited. Naturally, this does not stop ZOS from adding it, but it also does not encourage them.
Maybe I'm not sure what you mean here, but the single player titles (can only speak for TES3 and beyond) are meant for creating a character in the world and playing as that character. The single player games don't discourage players from being evil bad guys or from being any kind of person in particular for that matter.
The previous games had their limitations in terms of making features, but there were ways in the vanilla games to play as an evil necromancer, for instance TES4 spell "reanimate" and TES5 spell "raise zombie" (if I'm understanding what you mean by "but the support in the TES games is really limited"). These conjuration spells in the games are as much support for a necromancer in the vanilla games as any other kind of role.
Actually, the single player TES games do quite a bit to quietly discourage evil characters. More specifically, to encourage neutral and good characters over evil characters. That is one criticism of Bethesda from back in the Fallout 3 days. BGS definitely has a "good tilt" to their moral compass for the TES games, and some Fallout fans felt that bled into Fallout 3.
Specific to Necromancers, none of the single player TES games have a class, or a template, to create a necromancer. It just isn't a thing that BGS ever put an effort into. What they do offer is usually just a couple of spells in an overwhelmingly non-Necromancer magic system. That really doesn't set a strong pro-Necromancer precedent for the series, even if the player can cobble together what few things they offer for necromancy.
Again, I have to repeat. If ZOS does anything related to necromancy, and there are some cool things that they could do, I think it will not be in a "Necromancer" class. It will be in a more general class. Abilities related to necromancy will probably be limited to a single skill line within the class. The other two skill lines will deal with something else. Personally, I was thinking of some sort of a tribal Shaman class from deep in Black Marsh. There is much we don't know about that part of Tamriel and necromancy might fight nicely into that as part of a larger class.
Now, to why I disagree with your reasoning.
Point the first: The single player games do not encourage any alignment over the others. I personally always play “evil” characters (a flawed label, as I’ve pointed out before), and I actually find it difficult to play “good” characters. From my biased perspective, I could just as easily claim that the single player games discourage “good” characters. Why, you ask? Have you played Morrowind?
Point the second: You say that none of the single player games have a “class, or a template” for a Necromancer character. Guess what? None of the single player games have a “class, or a template” for a Dragonknight character. In Oblivion, however, you start the game with Summon Zombie and Summon Skeleton if you have Conjuration as a Major Skill. Provided this information, it doesn’t seem to me like the single player games discourage Necromancy.
Point the third: You state “What they do offer is usually just a couple of spells in an overwhelmingly non-Necromancer magic system.” Have you seen the spell selection in Skyrim? That goes for every spell type. They only offer a few fire spells in an overwhelmingly non-flame magic system. They only offer a few summon Daedra spells in an overwhelmingly non-Daedric magic system. I could go on. In Morrowind, you can summon all sorts of undead, from Spirits to Bonewalkers. Doesn’t sound anti-Necromancer to me.
Point the fourth: Ewww, Black Marsh
With cold regards,
Mythic
Favorite Characters:Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner3 -
ArchMikem✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't like the idea of a new class being a Necromancer, but I also have no idea why people are saying Necromancers are against Lore and aren't immersive. Necromancy is one of the biggest practiced magics in Tamriel.
Also Dragonknights are said to be Warriors that modeled their fighting style after the Martial Arts of the Akaviri.CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!2 -
Custos91✭✭✭To be honest, as a dedicated healer I would probably not heal necromancers in dungeon situations.
My pledge is to life and not to people who create false life and desecrate it.
I can see vampirism as a tool, as means to an end and forgiveable, because it can be cured (and it beeing curable means the divines encourage people coming back to life that way).
And don't even get me started about roleplayers and redguard chars, for them it would be NECCESARY to spam the whole town and shout at necromancers... and I would totally support that.
Also didn't some restoration magic kill necromantic things?
So if there would be a necromancer skill line, I want a skill line of arkay or restoration to get rid of those things!
Edited by Custos91 on January 1, 2018 8:40AMWarden Main apparently... 7 Wardens currently, otherwise a healer of every class.
Mostly active in No CP PVP on EU, blaming the buffbot meta in pve.
I want to feel like I am saving somebodies life, not like I am carrying amunition for them...1 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It’s not a matter of lore, manimarco was a blasted necromancer!
The issue is that while this is a great game and most of the time I will defend it to the hilt, one place I can’t is pets and some people seem to want a necromancer with a lot of pets.
I realy hate pets in eso, from those dozy bum bears constantly vanishing, attacking where the enemy was previously, getting stuck in the ceiling, stupid muttering twilights constantly cluttering up crafting Writ drop sites and door access by simply blocking los to the E interface.
I would love to use a necromancer but the fact is that it would have to be one with no more than one pet, the whole skeletal horde idea simply won’t work in esoEdited by Integral1900 on January 1, 2018 8:42AM1 -
Radiance✭✭✭✭✭
✭What about the Sorcerer Dremora Summoning skill Tree!? They aren't Undead Zombie Skeletons but still pretty creepy... What would their other 2 skill trees consist of, most elements have been represented in the 5 classes. You can summon up to 3 monsters at a time with skills and 4 or 5 using certain Monster sets... Idk how many summons you need but any more than that just seems way too excessive... IF they were to add a 6th class, there are so many other directions to go than just Necromancer. I for one would like to see some creativity.0
