Both Stam and magicka wardens are op

Ragnarock41

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love that ZOS balancing.... Wardens are powerful in PvP but garbage in PvE.

Do they need a nerf? No. The CP System needs a significant adjustment and power returned to characters that was stripped due to the system itself.

Sadly they keep doing the opposite, more max CP, keep nerfing classes, add more CP, nerf classes, add CP and so on...

Vaoh

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Gotta love that ZOS balancing.... Wardens are powerful in PvP but garbage in PvE.

Do they need a nerf? No. The CP System needs a significant adjustment and power returned to characters that was stripped due to the system itself.

Sadly they keep doing the opposite, more max CP, keep nerfing classes, add more CP, nerf classes, add CP and so on...

Fengrush imo was the smartest in how he interpreted the balance for this game. He recognized this and asked for the CP system to provide cool bonuses that mainly aren’t so purely stat-based, because it’s obvious things would turn out this way.

ZOS never listened.... classes will keep getting nerfed

Wreuntzylla

Izaki wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

They’re not OP.

Against a ranged magicka class? They literally take no damage from projectiles.

Against a medium armor stamina build? The only one that has a legit chance to beat a Warden consistently is a Stamblade. Normally just spamming birds is more than enough to kill you off once you're under 50% health on a medium armor build. Maybe throw in an stun for the giggles. Y'a know all that undodgeable stuff hurts when dodging is your primary defense.

Against a heavy armor stamina build? Aside from the fact that you actually have to perform a proper combo to kill someone in heavy armor, I'd say that a Warden still has the advantage. Like that potential 100% uptime on Major Defile is pretty ruthless.

The only thing that might give them trouble would be a heavy armor magicka build that is not ranged. But hey, they've got Major Mending and like a whole skill tree worth of healing things, so they'll be fine.

I don't get the major defile up-time comment. Don't folks realize that they reduced the cooldown on Durok's bane to 1sec? It's a really good set now... Better than spamming a high magicka cost AoE in all put a few situations.

ak_pvp

They are definitely overtuned. Shield should be more taxing, but similarly as effective. Also. make it 3 attacks per player, fek zergz.

Dive needs to be dodgable+ reflect/deflectable. Its power is in its raw damage+delayed hit.

Not sure about sub, I mean it hits ult level in heavy, but its sort of the defining feature.

leepalmer95

After quiting for a couple of months.

Then coming back and playing this game the past week can say the game is still in the same place.

After messing around on a couple of classes i see no reason to play anything other than stam warden, it's so OP compared to everything else.

The heals, lets them use forward momentum while having amazing heals.

Shimmering shield, quite a broken skill as it basically makes a ranged class useless, such a small cost when it gets the magicka back, major heroism is too strong of a buff should be minor and it doesn't reflect meaning unlike wings it works on pigeons and skill like crushing shock.

Shalk, an AOE dmg skill with damage comparable to some ults which goes through block and roll and it easy timed with other skills... very balanced. My tooltip is around 15k with continuous on a heavy build. Not a fan of hard hitting skills you can't do anything against.

Pigeons - Still think a ranged spam skill that goes through roll is stupid, medium is kind of irrelevant now apart from a nb anything i guess.

I don't think warden has a buff it can't give itself.

Game is so p2w nowdays, most powerful class behind a paywall, best pvp weapons behind a paywall. Asylum 2h is very balanced you see, i'm dropping ultimates more than my actual skills like surprise attack and dizzying nowdays.

NyassaV

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

L2Pay

Even people who know how to play are bloody fed up with Wardens and their skills with little to no counter play

NyassaV

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how many Stam NBs there are.

I don't think Warden is OP

I agree with the poster that said, just about any class is strong with the right person

Your tag says Warden and you don't think Warden is OP. You are either ignorant or stupid. Just look at how the class dominates PvP. Unfortunately it is garbage in PvE

SodanTok

Can we start differencing between OP and best.
I think you all forget how OP classes look like or how forum looks like when some class is truly OP.

People were bandwagoning on abusing stamblades during Morrowind or magsorc before much more. Same went for people complaining about them.

From stamina point of view, the 3 other (templar, sorc, dk) are simply bad, not something warden should be brought down to.

Not that I disagree with careful fine tuning. But some people are just ridiculous with their suggestions.

Waffennacht

Hollery wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm always amazed at how many Stam NBs there are.

I don't think Warden is OP

I agree with the poster that said, just about any class is strong with the right person

Your tag says Warden and you don't think Warden is OP. You are either ignorant or stupid. Just look at how the class dominates PvP. Unfortunately it is garbage in PvE

You don't really read a lot of the forums do you?

I just published a stamplar build. I've published mag sorc, and magplar.

And no I'm not biased.

The warden tool kit is good no doubt, it just really shows players that rely on only 1 defensive mechanics, such as roll dodging or blocking.

Players that can kite, apply debuffs and dots will do well against wardens.

Give me a meta mag temp against a warden. Purging is one of the most powerful tools in game, and wardens can't do that (what Betty? Siphoner applies per weave, they should never really purge anything.

Wanna know what the top players on console run?

Templar, DK, NB, Warden, and Sorc lmao. I guarantee you, these players will wreck with any class.

Is medium armor weak ATM? Absolutely, but that's not wardens fault

kaithuzar

IMO, a good 50% out of all of the classes in cyrodiil vivec campaign are wardens, there are even small man groups dedicated to only warden & 1-2 healing templars; if you don't believe me ask around & see for yourself.

There is a reason for this & it's not because "they're well balanced".

Waffennacht

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO, a good 50% out of all of the classes in cyrodiil vivec campaign are wardens, there are even small man groups dedicated to only warden & 1-2 healing templars; if you don't believe me ask around & see for yourself.

There is a reason for this & it's not because "they're well balanced".

It would maybe be easier to believe any of these threads if there also wasn't:

Purge is OP thread
2h is OP thread
Cloak is OP thread
Heavy armor is OP thread
Heals are OP thread
Shields are OP thread
Tanks are OP thread
Sorcs are OP thread

And that's just from this week.

Then every OP thread makes people flock to the Fotm OP whatever

Vaoh

kaithuzar wrote: »

IMO, a good 50% out of all of the classes in cyrodiil vivec campaign are wardens, there are even small man groups dedicated to only warden & 1-2 healing templars; if you don't believe me ask around & see for yourself.

There is a reason for this & it's not because "they're well balanced".

Not true at all. If a Warden casts Expansive Ice Cloak, the icy armor visual effect will apply to their allies. There are a lot less Wardens than your hyperbole can make up.

From what I see there’s a massive amount of Templars and NBs atm. Kinda how it’s always been though tbh. DK/Sorc/Warden kinda have the same population. Templars and NBs are the majority though for obvious key roles they play in groups.

CatchMeTrolling

Wardens aren’t even one of the top played classes, (barely anyone plays mag warden) maybe the stam version is just now starting to get up there for small scale. Even though not too long ago everyone was saying Wardens are trash, but now that players like Kodi and some bg players showed how viable the class is everyone wants to say it’s op and make it fotm.

Just because a class is performing well or better doesn’t make it OP, please stop the trend of saying everything is OP until they get nerfed. You guys did it with sorcs (remember when stam sorcs were op too?), magplar, dks, skills etc. Now my favorite class which is Templar doesn’t play the same and is missing the identity it once had. Ironically that also happened when everyone caught on to them being viable, remember when you had to find the same 10 Templars just to complete the bounty.

Xsorus

I'm still putting my Stamina Warden together; but pretty much I can swap my Stamina Sorc setup over to him and he'd be probably better....Would have more burst that's for sure.

Rainraven

Their passives have great synergy with armor sets that are stupid, unless of course the goal is to hammer on each other all day and never really get anywhere. Then yay for stupid armor sets, I guess.

This from observation only, since I'm in light armor and that won't be happening, even with shields. But I do have streak, so go on then. Hammer on each other all day. I'll be over there ---> ---> --->

Witar

Stamwardens are indeed god tier right now. Can oneshot people with charge+beetles+dawnbreaker combo and still have incredible survivability few other classes can match.

montiferus

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm still putting my Stamina Warden together; but pretty much I can swap my Stamina Sorc setup over to him and he'd be probably better....Would have more burst that's for sure.

Pretty much this. I main’d a stam sorc for over a year and just made a stam warden. The differences are absurd. Stam Warden is so much stronger it isn’t even funny.

That said why don’t they just buff the underperforming classes. Stam DK and Stam Sorc come to mind.

CatchMeTrolling

montiferus wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I'm still putting my Stamina Warden together; but pretty much I can swap my Stamina Sorc setup over to him and he'd be probably better....Would have more burst that's for sure.

Pretty much this. I main’d a stam sorc for over a year and just made a stam warden. The differences are absurd. Stam Warden is so much stronger it isn’t even funny.

That said why don’t they just buff the underperforming classes. Stam DK and Stam Sorc come to mind.

Because the same thing will happen that always happen, we hear things like this every 6 months. Zos buffs the class directly or indirectly just for them to get nerfed later because the community complains about said buffs. Ironically stam sorc and stam dk are a great example of that, both at some point was fotm or considered the best stam class, now look.

Maura_Neysa

Izaki wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

They’re not OP.

Against a ranged magicka class? They literally take no damage from projectiles.

Against a medium armor stamina build? The only one that has a legit chance to beat a Warden consistently is a Stamblade. Normally just spamming birds is more than enough to kill you off once you're under 50% health on a medium armor build. Maybe throw in an stun for the giggles. Y'a know all that undodgeable stuff hurts when dodging is your primary defense.

Against a heavy armor stamina build? Aside from the fact that you actually have to perform a proper combo to kill someone in heavy armor, I'd say that a Warden still has the advantage. Like that potential 100% uptime on Major Defile is pretty ruthless.

The only thing that might give them trouble would be a heavy armor magicka build that is not ranged. But hey, they've got Major Mending and like a whole skill tree worth of healing things, so they'll be fine.

LOL Stamblades are a joke to my Warden. You can't hide, and you can't burst me, and you can't run from me. Stam DKs are the strongest build against Wardens. You just need serious constant pressure, stamsorc would be next. Ranged anything is no different, Sorc Shield stacking, DK wings all that is the same.

Maura_Neysa

casparian wrote: »

Everyone complains on the forums that magplar and DK have been over-nerfed because of overzealous forum QQ, and we all beg ZOS to restore magplar and DK to some of their former glory. But then we turn around and cry about wardens in exactly the same way we used to cry about magplars and DKs. What wardens need is a tweak, not a major, across-the-board nerf like magplars and DKs have received.

The key to balancing wardens without over-nerfing them, IMO, is Shimmering Shield. This skill needs the Wings treatment: it needs to become slightly less useful and significantly more expensive. Its magicka return needs to be removed and its cost needs to be the same as or greater than DKs' Wings. As is, this skill is simply too powerful for its functional cost: it gives the warden Major Heroism and virtual immunity to ranged builds for barely over 1000 magicka, meaning even stamina Wardens have virtually no opportunity cost for casting it.

I predict that if Shimmering Shield became significantly more costly, so that a pressured warden (and especially a pressured stamina warden) would have to seriously consider whether casting it was worth the cost, TTK on wardens would noticeably decrease, without impairing wardens to the extent that magplars and DKs have been impaired by over-nerfing.

You want to nerf Shield, but Reflective Scales actually has some big bonuses over Shield. 35% damage and extra projectile or 2% damage reduction and extra projectile.

Cost 3780 mag, reflects 4 projectiles, last 6 seconds, get Minor Ward
Cost 3780 mag, reflects 4 projectiles, last 6 seconds, does 35% additional damage

Cost 2701 mag, reflects 3 projectiles, last 6 seconds, does Icy bolt
Cost 2432 mag, reflects 3 projectiles, last 6 seconds, get 578 magicka return and Major Heroism

Freecry

I hate these nerf post, they are never constructive.

The first question is why you think a class is "op" ?
The second : how these class works ?
The third : how can i make this class less "op" when i fight against ?

When you'll have found the answers to these questions you will never ask for nerf

And don't forget
If you play with a blue pve gear you are a prey for pvp players even for me...
All classes are OP with the good build and good player

Ultimate_Overlord

An imortant part of balancing is finding the baseline. In this case, the baseline is when a class/skill is viable when used optimally, but requires a reasonable amount of skill to make the most out of it. The thing about warden is that using its skills optimally is very easy, in many cases simply due to lack of counterplay to said skills (cant make a mistake if theres no punishment). Thats why you cant simply buff every other class- warden skills are way overuned and easy to use, not balanced. If every class was the same as warden overall skill ceiling would go down drastically.
Also, you cant excuse shimmering by mentioning wings or harness. Harness is an absoultely broken skill in any scenario, honestly, you dont have to be a genius to understand that a shield that refunds its cost and then some is not healthy for the game. Wings are a bad open world skill, and only compare to shimmering in 1v1 situations, in which they are equally as stupid.

Reverb

My Warden bounties just as fast as other classes, they're dying just fine.

WillhelmBlack

Hollery wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

L2Pay

Even people who know how to play are bloody fed up with Wardens and their skills with little to no counter play

Read again.

shack80

Time to time I'm beginning to thing all classes are op. PVP is all about crying why someone(thing) is better than other. What I only hate is like 50+ zerg running over you, but if you loose 1vs1 even 1vs2 then get gud kid

WillhelmBlack

I'm highly against CP'S btw but people saying that they are to blame are incorrect on this one. Warden on non CP campaigns can still do all the things they can do in a CP environment, they still have the same buffs and skills and can also sustain them.

I got into a 1v1 against a 300CP Stam Warden the other day in Vivec. He didn't seem to know any other combo or heal rotation. He just ran around the inner of a resource tower at lightspeed trying to get the combo down and when things went bad he just tree ults. That's a 300CP player with infinite buffs and infinite resources. Against a 690CP magDK (according to most, the strongest duelling class) who couldn't do anything but hope his inexperience would urge him outside the tower. It did, he got sweaty and died but there was no way I could have beat him on his terms at just 300CP.

They are simply overpowered. As @leepalmer95 said, Shalks are hitting harder than Meteors which are blocked **** easy. It hits harder than any of Templar's and Sorcs's class ults and from a blocking DK's perspective even harder than Incap xD

Docmandu

Stamwarden is Flavour Of the Month since people see Kodi play it and follow suit. Only thing I think could use some rebalancing is shimmering shield.. it's a hard counter for magica classes.. and there were already a few of those skills around (DK wings and Templar eclipse).. with the warden's version being super cheap, working on more skills (ie. force pulse) and self buffing... in other words, too much goodies put in 1 skill.

I main a (mag) warden myself btw, ever since the class came out.

Still waiting for the first melee reflect skill... after 3 magica ones.. I think a melee one is due !

Freecry

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

That's a 300CP player with infinite sustain, infinite buffs and infinite resources.

infinite sustain and infinite ressources really XD

It's a particular situation (all mag classes can do it with vampire mist skill) . it's like Tom and Jerry. Tom running after Jerry but can't catch him...

WillhelmBlack

Freecry wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

That's a 300CP player with infinite sustain, infinite buffs and infinite resources.

infinite sustain and infinite ressources really XD

It's a particular situation (all mag classes can do it with vampire mist skill) . it's like Tom and Jerry. Tom running after Jerry but can't catch him...

Think it's me that needs to read again xD

Waffennacht

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I'm highly against CP'S btw but people saying that they are to blame are incorrect on this one. Warden on non CP campaigns can still do all the things they can do in a CP environment, they still have the same buffs and skills and can also sustain them.

I got into a 1v1 against a 300CP Stam Warden the other day in Vivec. He didn't seem to know any other combo or heal rotation. He just ran around the inner of a resource tower at lightspeed trying to get the combo down and when things went bad he just tree ults. That's a 300CP player with infinite buffs and infinite resources. Against a 690CP magDK (according to most, the strongest duelling class) who couldn't do anything but hope his inexperience would urge him outside the tower. It did, he got sweaty and died but there was no way I could have beat him on his terms at just 300CP.

They are simply overpowered. As @leepalmer95 said, Shalks are hitting harder than Meteors which are blocked **** easy. It hits harder than any of Templar's and Sorcs's class ults and from a blocking DK's perspective even harder than Incap xD

Well, you really can't beat someone using LoS on their terms... Because if you could they wouldn't be LoSing...