Both Stam and magicka wardens are op

Micah_Bayer

Well yes..its another nerf sor..i mean whoa..wait what? Okay well let's get to the basics, wardens have some skills that literally do three things as once..They are extremely versatile, you can be bad and still be great at warden. How about you nerf them in the pvp aspect and start buffing them in pve? That way you can stop the.."Oh they suck in pve so they have to be good somewhere like pvp.." Yes well not God's who can't die thank you very much.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

One plus to a warden is having simply one or two in a large group makes it so no one else has to build specifically to do certain support type things since wardens skills basically do everything already.

CatchMeTrolling

They’re not OP.

Micah_Bayer

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

They’re not OP.

Trooooooollll

Izaki

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

They’re not OP.

Against a ranged magicka class? They literally take no damage from projectiles.

Against a medium armor stamina build? The only one that has a legit chance to beat a Warden consistently is a Stamblade. Normally just spamming birds is more than enough to kill you off once you're under 50% health on a medium armor build. Maybe throw in an stun for the giggles. Y'a know all that undodgeable stuff hurts when dodging is your primary defense.

Against a heavy armor stamina build? Aside from the fact that you actually have to perform a proper combo to kill someone in heavy armor, I'd say that a Warden still has the advantage. Like that potential 100% uptime on Major Defile is pretty ruthless.

The only thing that might give them trouble would be a heavy armor magicka build that is not ranged. But hey, they've got Major Mending and like a whole skill tree worth of healing things, so they'll be fine.

DeadlyRecluse

OP is a strong word.

Stamina Warden feels a little overtuned, but 7th Legion in general feels a little overtuned...

I haven't found a solo magicka warden that felt really, really dangerous in the way that stam wardens do. Frequent stalemates, though.

The strangest thing, IMO, is that even potato wardens take longer than they should to kill. I haven't put my finger on which passives/skills are directly responsible for that.

Derra

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

The strangest thing, IMO, is that even potato wardens take longer than they should to kill. I haven't put my finger on which passives/skills are directly responsible for that.

If you use any projectile classified attacks it´s shimmering shield which has ~400 magica cost after figuring in magica returned, absorbs 3 projectiles (or 30k something dmg) and gives them major heroism in combination with either 1h shield, resto or trees.

On stamina wardens you might face the additional problem of a stamina based burst heal that enables them to play double sword and board builds.

Azurya

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Well yes..its another nerf sor..i mean whoa..wait what? Okay well let's get to the basics, wardens have some skills that literally do three things as once..They are extremely versatile, you can be bad and still be great at warden. How about you nerf them in the pvp aspect and start buffing them in pve? That way you can stop the.."Oh they suck in pve so they have to be good somewhere like pvp.." Yes well not God's who can't die thank you very much.

warden are not op in pvp, otherwise there would be armies of wardens running around.......

wardens has some skills that cauze dmg and might kill you, and that is something you cannot stand

you want to life forever, and that is possible

go to pve overland content, there you can pretty much run forever without dieing.

Ragnarock41

in other news water is wet.

GimpyPorcupine

Make the one class that's behind a paywall OP. Smart business strategy.

Ragnarock41

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

Make the one class that's behind a paywall OP. Smart business strategy.

and nerf the similar ones before. win win.

casparian

Everyone complains on the forums that magplar and DK have been over-nerfed because of overzealous forum QQ, and we all beg ZOS to restore magplar and DK to some of their former glory. But then we turn around and cry about wardens in exactly the same way we used to cry about magplars and DKs. What wardens need is a tweak, not a major, across-the-board nerf like magplars and DKs have received.

The key to balancing wardens without over-nerfing them, IMO, is Shimmering Shield. This skill needs the Wings treatment: it needs to become slightly less useful and significantly more expensive. Its magicka return needs to be removed and its cost needs to be the same as or greater than DKs' Wings. As is, this skill is simply too powerful for its functional cost: it gives the warden Major Heroism and virtual immunity to ranged builds for barely over 1000 magicka, meaning even stamina Wardens have virtually no opportunity cost for casting it.

I predict that if Shimmering Shield became significantly more costly, so that a pressured warden (and especially a pressured stamina warden) would have to seriously consider whether casting it was worth the cost, TTK on wardens would noticeably decrease, without impairing wardens to the extent that magplars and DKs have been impaired by over-nerfing.

DeadlyRecluse

Derra wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

The strangest thing, IMO, is that even potato wardens take longer than they should to kill. I haven't put my finger on which passives/skills are directly responsible for that.

If you use any projectile classified attacks it´s shimmering shield which has ~400 magica cost after figuring in magica returned, absorbs 3 projectiles (or 30k something dmg) and gives them major heroism in combination with either 1h shield, .

That right there might be the main culprit, yeah.

The stam burst heal is annoying, but I don't see a lot of bad wardens using it to enable tankiness. I'm really talking about the kind of player that normally drops in 2-3 seconds (or instantly against a small group). Those wardens just don't seem to exist--the worst of them are still "kind of" tanky. It's probably shimmering shield neutering 1/3 to 1/2 of group members primary DPS in small group play.

Ocelot9x

Warden is not op; it's just that every other class feels so underwhelming.. Everyone too tanky and to scared to die,running around spamming mist form and holding block. Mediocre people can just do so many mistakes and still surviving that it feels so good to one shot the wannabe kodi forget to hold block,and the only class capable of this is the warden.
No nerfs to warden,buff other classes damage!
Hell,magsorc and Stam dks are shadow of their former selves

CatchMeTrolling

You guys complain until everything is nerfed then complain about the nerfs and wonder why the game is becoming more homogenized. The game hasn’t seen actual OPness since the old vamp dks and 1.6 sorcs.

Warden is a solid class and it’s that solidness that’s skewing your perspective because the other classes are more of the same, lacking identity.

WillhelmBlack

L2Pay

Izaki

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys complain until everything is nerfed then complain about the nerfs and wonder why the game is becoming more homogenized. The game hasn’t seen actual OPness since the old vamp dks and 1.6 sorcs.

Warden is a solid class and it’s that solidness that’s skewing your perspective because the other classes are more of the same, lacking identity.

Yeah and that totally explains the warden being able to self buff pretty much everything important in the game while having an undodgeable spammable and a way to completely shut off ranged projetile builds? While also boasting the highest ultimate regen. Yeah, solid. Way more solid that the other classes. And if you're saying that for example a Nightblade lacks identity, compare it to any of the other 5 classes and its nothing like it. All the classes are unique. And yes, Warden is much better than any of them.

Thogard

I made a “nerf sub assault” thread

Got a ton of people saying that I need to learn to play and that if I played one I wouldn’t think it’s OP (I think the dmg part of the warden kit is an easier 1-change fix than adjusting the whole support side)

So I made one now and I play it

It’s even easier than I thought it would be.

Ragnarock41

casparian wrote: »

Everyone complains on the forums that magplar and DK have been over-nerfed because of overzealous forum QQ, and we all beg ZOS to restore magplar and DK to some of their former glory. But then we turn around and cry about wardens in exactly the same way we used to cry about magplars and DKs. What wardens need is a tweak, not a major, across-the-board nerf like magplars and DKs have received.

The key to balancing wardens without over-nerfing them, IMO, is Shimmering Shield. This skill needs the Wings treatment: it needs to become slightly less useful and significantly more expensive. Its magicka return needs to be removed and its cost needs to be the same as or greater than DKs' Wings. As is, this skill is simply too powerful for its functional cost: it gives the warden Major Heroism and virtual immunity to ranged builds for barely over 1000 magicka, meaning even stamina Wardens have virtually no opportunity cost for casting it.

I predict that if Shimmering Shield became significantly more costly, so that a pressured warden (and especially a pressured stamina warden) would have to seriously consider whether casting it was worth the cost, TTK on wardens would noticeably decrease, without impairing wardens to the extent that magplars and DKs have been impaired by over-nerfing.

Look, Im totally fine with warden being strong.
Im not fine with warden totally replacing and outperforming Dk for over 6 months zos doing absolutely nothing about it.
Its not ''fine''.
I'm watching my own videos playing from a year ago and Its like Im watching a different game, playing a different class.

at the moment Im just waiting for that so much hyped ''balance update''. to see if they would actually adjust Dk after doing block changes, If they don't I'm done with this game and any other future title zenimax releases.

CatchMeTrolling

Izaki wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You guys complain until everything is nerfed then complain about the nerfs and wonder why the game is becoming more homogenized. The game hasn’t seen actual OPness since the old vamp dks and 1.6 sorcs.

Warden is a solid class and it’s that solidness that’s skewing your perspective because the other classes are more of the same, lacking identity.

Yeah and that totally explains the warden being able to self buff pretty much everything important in the game while having an undodgeable spammable and a way to completely shut off ranged projetile builds? While also boasting the highest ultimate regen. Yeah, solid. Way more solid that the other classes. And if you're saying that for example a Nightblade lacks identity, compare it to any of the other 5 classes and its nothing like it. All the classes are unique. And yes, Warden is much better than any of them.

You keep bringing up projectiles like Wardens are the only ones with a hard counter, shimmerings greatness comes from the ult gen not blocking projectiles. If you're talking magic then you can say the same thing for shields which can pretty much turn a magic vs magic into a stalemate or hard counter the magic build without a shield. Birds are only a problem outnumbered which isn’t even a solid argument because that can be applied to any skill, there’s no way you should lose to birds in a 1v1.

Identity as in people play them the same way, especially stamina builds they’re so generic.

casparian

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Everyone complains on the forums that magplar and DK have been over-nerfed because of overzealous forum QQ, and we all beg ZOS to restore magplar and DK to some of their former glory. But then we turn around and cry about wardens in exactly the same way we used to cry about magplars and DKs. What wardens need is a tweak, not a major, across-the-board nerf like magplars and DKs have received.

The key to balancing wardens without over-nerfing them, IMO, is Shimmering Shield. This skill needs the Wings treatment: it needs to become slightly less useful and significantly more expensive. Its magicka return needs to be removed and its cost needs to be the same as or greater than DKs' Wings. As is, this skill is simply too powerful for its functional cost: it gives the warden Major Heroism and virtual immunity to ranged builds for barely over 1000 magicka, meaning even stamina Wardens have virtually no opportunity cost for casting it.

I predict that if Shimmering Shield became significantly more costly, so that a pressured warden (and especially a pressured stamina warden) would have to seriously consider whether casting it was worth the cost, TTK on wardens would noticeably decrease, without impairing wardens to the extent that magplars and DKs have been impaired by over-nerfing.

Look, Im totally fine with warden being strong.
Im not fine with warden totally replacing and outperforming Dk for over 6 months zos doing absolutely nothing about it.
Its not ''fine''.
I'm watching my own videos playing from a year ago and Its like Im watching a different game, playing a different class.

at the moment Im just waiting for that so much hyped ''balance update''. to see if they would actually adjust Dk after doing block changes, If they don't I'm done with this game and any other future title zenimax releases.

100% agree, but that's a buff DK issue, not a nerf warden issue.

Ragnarock41

casparian wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Everyone complains on the forums that magplar and DK have been over-nerfed because of overzealous forum QQ, and we all beg ZOS to restore magplar and DK to some of their former glory. But then we turn around and cry about wardens in exactly the same way we used to cry about magplars and DKs. What wardens need is a tweak, not a major, across-the-board nerf like magplars and DKs have received.

The key to balancing wardens without over-nerfing them, IMO, is Shimmering Shield. This skill needs the Wings treatment: it needs to become slightly less useful and significantly more expensive. Its magicka return needs to be removed and its cost needs to be the same as or greater than DKs' Wings. As is, this skill is simply too powerful for its functional cost: it gives the warden Major Heroism and virtual immunity to ranged builds for barely over 1000 magicka, meaning even stamina Wardens have virtually no opportunity cost for casting it.

I predict that if Shimmering Shield became significantly more costly, so that a pressured warden (and especially a pressured stamina warden) would have to seriously consider whether casting it was worth the cost, TTK on wardens would noticeably decrease, without impairing wardens to the extent that magplars and DKs have been impaired by over-nerfing.

Look, Im totally fine with warden being strong.
Im not fine with warden totally replacing and outperforming Dk for over 6 months zos doing absolutely nothing about it.
Its not ''fine''.
I'm watching my own videos playing from a year ago and Its like Im watching a different game, playing a different class.

at the moment Im just waiting for that so much hyped ''balance update''. to see if they would actually adjust Dk after doing block changes, If they don't I'm done with this game and any other future title zenimax releases.

100% agree, but that's a buff DK issue, not a nerf warden issue.

Well they clearly rejected to buff stop nerfing dk for almost a damn year now, so what am I to do but complain about the existance of wardens? Devs didn't gave me any hope, What do you expect me to do?

Jjitsuboy98

I really like having the extra healing, burst and mobility that a Stam warden offers. I do not have to spec crazy high into damage to get kills. My sword and board set up is only 3100 damage but I run three dots and have infinite recovery almost. 100 percent uptime on defile . The pressure is great.

Qbiken

All classes are OP in the right hands, the same way all classes are trash in the wrong hands...

Ragnarock41

Qbiken wrote: »

All classes are OP in the right hands, the same way all classes are trash in the wrong hands...

Player skill matters, but if your opponent is just as good as you are, then it all comes up to who has the better deck in his hands. I would love it if PvP balance was kind of like rock paper scissors, but Its more like one is clearly above everything else , and It becomes even more clear on the hands of a seasoned player.

lao

yea warden is OP.

thats why hardly anyone plays them while there is 32848923749 stamblades where ever you go.

the playerbase of this game ......

dodgehopper_ESO

How about they just do something about Nightblades, DK and Templar instead. Sorcerers are already amazingly strong and the elephant in the room even with the nerf to their crystal frags (which I don't necessarily agree with). Wardens do in fact have a lot of support related skills and skills that do double duty, but then so do other skills unless you want to suggest to me that Mark or Shadowy Image (and morph) aren't also doing quite a few other things at the same time. I'm more concerned however about things like the way Siphoning Strikes nerf completely upended my nightblade build. I'm concerned about the way the only single target cc the class had was replaced with a suicide-heal (healthy offering), arguably the dumbest skill ever introduced into the game.

I could also go at length into problems with the underlying game systems which are of greater concern to the game. Racial passives for instance should not be percentile based but rather a static bonus calculated after all other calculations take place. This would revolutionize gameplay for a lot of character races and bring things at least closer to parity with the kinds of choices people had at the outset of the game. I will not type further on the matter because it is too exhausting but I think the entire premise of this discussion is going in the wrong direction. Wardens are a tanky race and are meant to be such.

Waffennacht

I'm always amazed at how many Stam NBs there are.

I don't think Warden is OP

I agree with the poster that said, just about any class is strong with the right person

Thogard

lao wrote: »

yea warden is OP.

thats why hardly anyone plays them while there is 32848923749 stamblades where ever you go.

the playerbase of this game ......

Stamblades are OP too, but only in 1v1 or Hankins settings. They’ll never do anything significant.

Also, stamblades are the one weakness a Stam warden has, since the stamden doesn’t have a reliable tool to pull stamblade out of stealth (beetles doesn’t count) and because stamblade has major defile built into its burst combo.

Wardens are good self-healers but not good at mitigating melee dmg, so defile + melee attack’s is really effective against them.

VirtualElizabeth

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

They’re not OP.

I know right? My Kill reports are filled with nightblades normally.

Vaoh

Gotta love that ZOS balancing.... Wardens are powerful in PvP but garbage in PvE.

Do they need a nerf? No. The CP System needs a significant adjustment and power returned to characters that was stripped due to the system itself.