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A compromise in the crate gambling debate

  • ChaosWotan
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    @Slick_007
    The primary complaint iv seen on here is people whining about crates are gambling

    I started this thread and wrote in my second post: "I don't mind being one of those "whales" buying crates, in order to contribute to keeping the game going, presuposing that the devs actually make larger and better DLCs from now on". Have also in other threads made it clear, from the start, that this new kind of expensive "radiant" gambling - catering to the kids on Upper East Side Manhattan? - is not proportional to the small DLCs we get today.

    Presenting critics as a raging crowd is also a strawman, (presupposing that you are not hyperbolic).

    Personally I feel no pressure to buy crates. Bought many the first two crate seasons, to get enough gems to purchase many apex mounts, but almost stopped buying them completely when seeing that ESO has downgraded the aesthetics of the apex mounts after introducing the radiant mounts.

    Today I only buy crates if I need gems to buy other items than the apex mounts. If the radiant mounts had been available through gems I would have bought all of them, but the last three seasons I have instead spent money on buying new games from the Steam, Origin and Blizzard stores. Have not played ESO the last five months, because I am happily enjoying other rpg games, though they are not as excellent as ESO once was in 2014/2015.

    Most vets in ESO are now just waiting for the next great mmo rpg. ESO is prb aware of this and is therefore milking their customers now, before many of us leave this game, since it today lacks sufficient and new storyline content.

    However, I do understand ESO's point of view. If 70-90 percent of the gamers had been loyal subscribers, ESO might have offered us a VIP subscription option instead of the "radiant"' gambling system we have today, and spent time on developing better DLCs.

    Edited by ChaosWotan on December 2, 2017 8:48AM
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  • Jade1986
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Slick_007
    The primary complaint iv seen on here is people whining about crates are gambling

    I started this thread and wrote in my second post: "I don't mind being one of those "whales" buying crates, in order to contribute to keeping the game going, presuposing that the devs actually make larger and better DLCs from now on". Have also in other threads made it clear, from the start, that this new kind of expensive "radiant" gambling - catering to the kids on Upper East Side Manhattan? - is not proportional to the small DLCs we get today.

    Presenting critics as a raging crowd is also a strawman, (presupposing that you are not hyperbolic).

    Personally I feel no pressure to buy crates. Bought many the first two crate seasons, to get enough gems to purchase many apex mounts, but almost stopped buying them completely when seeing that ESO has downgraded the aesthetics of the apex mounts after introducing the radiant mounts.

    Today I only buy crates if I need gems to buy other items than the apex mounts. If the radiant mounts had been available through gems I would have bought all of them, but the last three seasons I have instead spent money on buying new games from the Steam, Origin and Blizzard stores. Have not played ESO the last five months, because I am happily enjoying other rpg games, though they are not as excellent as ESO once was in 2014/2015.

    Most vets in ESO are now just waiting for the next great mmo rpg. ESO is prb aware of this and is therefore milking their customers now, before many of us leave this game, since it today lacks sufficient and new storyline content.

    However, I do understand ESO's point of view. If 70-90 percent of the gamers had been loyal subscribers, ESO might have offered us a VIP subscription option instead of the "radiant"' gambling system we have today, and spent time on developing better DLCs.

    Personally I see the shift in focus to crown crqtes instead of meaningful content to be the reason a lot of ppl left . Zos really has no one else to blame except themselves there.
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  • Slick_007
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    Jade1986 wrote: »

    Personally I see the shift in focus to crown crqtes instead of meaningful content to be the reason a lot of ppl left . Zos really has no one else to blame except themselves there.

    citation needed. lets see numbers before crates and now shall we? or cant you back this up
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Prb no point continuing this debate any further. Seems like all the main arguments, the pros and cons of each side, have been presented already. So we just have to agree to disagree.
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Jade1986

    The pro-gambling group has a few relevant points, of course. The main one is prb that you can enjoy ESO, especially as a casual player, without access to the coolest rpg items, and that game companies need new sources of income when lacking a large reliable base of loyal subscribers.

    A mmo rpg is a marathon for game companies, so when they start to invest a lot of money in developing a new game, they need to feel secure that people remain loyal enough to generate profit for the company. They are in it for the profit after all. One may not like this profit mentality, but we prb would not have had ESO in the first place without hard-working greedy people. That's just life here on Earth.

    Personally I'm grateful for the excellent gaming experience I had because of ESO in 2014/2015, and this whole debate is a luxury problem anyway, for us spoiled citizens of industrial countries, so no worries if it's now time to leave ESO behind and wait for a new great mmo rpg. And, hopefully, ESO will have a comeback one day :)
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  • Elsonso
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    Slick_007 wrote: »
    whats moronic is you thinking theres nothing more to it than that. all you people (iill refer to the anti crate crowd as a whole in 'you people') whine about is i paid x but only got y. i didnt get z.
    I already told you how i look at crates. and im sure im not the only one. and that its completely different to you people. and im so much happier because of it. i dont run around raging at the game i choose to play. i instead enjoy it. something you people apparently cant do.

    On a personal level, the two of us clearly disagree with the principles that govern Crown Crates. I dislike them, but I don't care if you buy them. I don't actually care that we disagree. Don't take that too personally. :smile:

    Since you lumped me into "you people", I whine about a number of things with Crown Crates. It is more than "wanted Z but only got Y". I have reservations about Crown Crates that cover behavior manipulation, how appropriate they are for this game, how much of a distraction they will be for the studio, and how much they actually benefit the game that I am playing. I also question whether they are necessary, or just the easy way out.

    One concern that I recently added was how they negatively impact new players. I am well aware that the game can be played, quite enjoyably, without spending any money on membership, Chapters, or Crowns. I am also aware that some players in the game have three years of accumulated Crown Store stuff. Once a new player becomes accustomed to the game, they will stop to take notice of their surroundings and see all the costumes, mounts, and pets. Many of these are only available in selected Crown Crates. That is a deviously despicable way to make people buy Crown Crates.

    I most definitely see Crown Crates differently from you. I am not blind to what you see, though. I completely understand what you see and I know why you are happy.


    Meanwhile, in other news.... @Jade1986 : Cyrodiil cannot be used to measure the success of the game. That is a completely separate ecosystem that has been dying for years. I would not be surprised to learn that dedicated PVP players make up a small minority of the total player population. For all intents and purposes, I consider this to be a PVE only game and would not even mention the game to an avid PVP player.

    EDIT: And where is @ZOS_BrianWheeler? Missing from the forums since October 10!
    Edited by Elsonso on December 2, 2017 1:31PM
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
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  • Raideen
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    Slick_007 wrote: »

    whats moronic is you thinking theres nothing more to it than that. all you people (iill refer to the anti crate crowd as a whole in 'you people') whine about is i paid x but only got y. i didnt get z.

    There are a number of reasons people dislike crates/loot crates:

    • Paying a monthly sub for a game should give that player access to 99% of game content. This has been the standard set in the industry for over 14 years. Content includes cosmetics as well as events (raids, quests etc). No successful game has asked for a monthly sub (which you NEED in ESO if you want to craft), AND forced most cosmetics through a cash shop AND stayed successful. People get sick of the greed and leave. The game company puts the game on life support and only cranks out new loot store content to cash grab. ESO is heading in that direction, which is one of our main complaints. In fact we love this game and want to see it succeed, want to see it be profitable, but we do not want to see it gouge customers to the point it makes them leave which is already happening.

    • People do not like loot crates because the actual game content starts to take a back seat. Bugs do not get fixed, new content patches/expansions come out with larger gaps of time in between them and when they DO launch are rarely more than a days worth of content as shown by every company who makes loot crate games in the gaming industry. The companies focus more on what makes them money and less on what makes games fun. This is bad for EVERY person who plays the game.

    • Gambling is a real issue and taking advantage of that psychological condition in some people. Makes tons of profit sure, but its also unethical. I have no issues with profits, or even large profits. If I did I would be harassing the jewelry industry who has some of the highest profit margins of any industry on the planet. What I have issues with is double and triple charging customers to access content. We pay handsomely to purchase the game, we must pay a 15.00 a month sub if we want to access content and or craft in game, then we must purchase gamble crates if we want a new mount to theme with our character. People play MMO's for different reasons, why are the collectors and RP'ers being focus targeted for monetization?!?! By your logic we should ask ZOS to start charging crowns per dungeon run.

    • Loot crates are fixed in ZOS favor. In vegas any given card game has a % chance to win or lose. That % chance does not change on the game. Vegas can not change the "drop rate" of winning or losing a game. ZOS can. They can set a % for a unique mount lets say, the customer gets a feel for the drop chance, spread sheets are made by the community so people can get an idea of how much a specific item will cost. Then ZOS changes the drop chances for a similar level mount in a future patch. People spend money on X when Y is in effect. These folks end up spending more than anticipated. Again. Unethical.

    These are only a few examples of some of the issues I have seen people complain about. WE HAVE observed what happens to games when loot crates take over.

    I already told you how i look at crates. and im sure im not the only one. and that its completely different to you people. and im so much happier because of it. i dont run around raging at the game i choose to play. i instead enjoy it. something you people apparently cant do.

    I am happy in game running around. I enjoy ESO a lot which is exactly why I am here complaining AS A CUSTOMER about the practices that ZOS is employing. Had I been aware of this before I got into ESO, I would NOT have purchased the game and the expansions. You think because I complain that I dislike the game?!?! You could not be farther from the truth.

    and those people unhappy about purchases have a choice not to purchase. the game is perfectly fine and playable without purchasing anything from crates, or even the crown store. in fact, you dont have to spend anything beyond buying the game. I bet you do though. you bought something. a sub, or a dlc, or morrowind. you didnt need to do any of those things yet you did. and then what, are you now whinging about doing so?

    Incorrect.
    1. People must pay for a monthly subscription to access in game content and/or if they intend to craft, which is a large part of the game.
    2. If people do not sub, they must pay with crowns to access content like orsinium, dark brotherhood etc.
    3. Some people play MMORPG's to collect. You can not collect mounts in ESO unless you purchase them. The game offers FOUR MOUNTS TOTAL for in game gold. 4 FOUR. Those paltry offerings do not reflect the RPG nature in the description of the game (RPG means ROLE PLAYING GAME, and is synonyms with character advancement, including collection of items, armor, mounts apparel, etc and this goes back to the days of Dungeons and Dragons by TSR.

    ESO is bland without crown store offerings or items found in loot crates.
    pressure? from random internet strangers, to buy things you dont need? OMG! call the anti bullying commission. we better get some help here! you know how much pressure iv felt to buy anything in the crown store? None! Zero! Zilch! Nada!

    if you're 'feeling pressure' to buy from the crown store, you got issues and you got the wrong type of 'friends'. time to bug out.

    What is the basic nature of most games that have existed on the planet Earth since the inception of games. I will answer this, COMPETITION

    With competition comes pressure. The pressure to win, the pressure to beat your opponent, the pressure to do something greater than doing nothing. Pressure and competition go hand in hand and it's what makes the world a better place. Without competition you would not have that computer you sit on, or the house you live in, or the clothes you wear. So to bash me for calling out the pressure (as light as the pressure might be) of collecting or performing in game is insanely ignorant. ZOS understands competition, the human psychology behind it and they are building their cash shop/loot crates to take advantage of this.

    Bottom line is that people play games for different reasons. Who are you (and your pals) to tell us that we HAVE to play or enjoy the game the way YOU do. That we have to shut up and silence our opinions when we are not happy with the direction of the game? That our opinions as PAYING CUSTOMERS are invalid. You know who you are? You are no one, you are nothing and we WILL stand up and we WILL continue to voice our displeasure with the direction of the game. Until either changes are made, or we quit and take our wallets with us and our friends and their wallets and their friends and their wallets.

    [Edit to remove bait]
    Edited by [Deleted User] on December 3, 2017 12:54AM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Well, it seems like someone is (mocked) out-raged after all :)

    Or is the above a false flag post from the evil pro-gambling group perhaps, intented to prove the out-rage-ousness of us good people in the anti-gambling group?

    Jokes aside, it looks like ESO is in the stage of "grab the cash and run", before the next popular mmo rpg arrives, with an engine that will crush ESO.

    But guys, next time we want to buy a new mmo rpg game, remember to first visit the discussion forum of the game and get assurance from the devs that they are not going to turn the game into a gambling party. If they are unclear about this, don't invest anything in the game, but play it as a non-subscriber. Because ESO and BF have proved that gaming companies can't be trusted. So don't give them any money.
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  • Jade1986
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    Raideen wrote: »
    Slick_007 wrote: »

    whats moronic is you thinking theres nothing more to it than that. all you people (iill refer to the anti crate crowd as a whole in 'you people') whine about is i paid x but only got y. i didnt get z.

    There are a number of reasons people dislike crates/loot crates:

    • Paying a monthly sub for a game should give that player access to 99% of game content. This has been the standard set in the industry for over 14 years. Content includes cosmetics as well as events (raids, quests etc). No successful game has asked for a monthly sub (which you NEED in ESO if you want to craft), AND forced most cosmetics through a cash shop AND stayed successful. People get sick of the greed and leave. The game company puts the game on life support and only cranks out new loot store content to cash grab. ESO is heading in that direction, which is one of our main complaints. In fact we love this game and want to see it succeed, want to see it be profitable, but we do not want to see it gouge customers to the point it makes them leave which is already happening.

    • People do not like loot crates because the actual game content starts to take a back seat. Bugs do not get fixed, new content patches/expansions come out with larger gaps of time in between them and when they DO launch are rarely more than a days worth of content as shown by every company who makes loot crate games in the gaming industry. The companies focus more on what makes them money and less on what makes games fun. This is bad for EVERY person who plays the game.

    • Gambling is a real issue and taking advantage of that psychological condition in some people. Makes tons of profit sure, but its also unethical. I have no issues with profits, or even large profits. If I did I would be harassing the jewelry industry who has some of the highest profit margins of any industry on the planet. What I have issues with is double and triple charging customers to access content. We pay handsomely to purchase the game, we must pay a 15.00 a month sub if we want to access content and or craft in game, then we must purchase gamble crates if we want a new mount to theme with our character. People play MMO's for different reasons, why are the collectors and RP'ers being focus targeted for monetization?!?! By your logic we should ask ZOS to start charging crowns per dungeon run.

    • Loot crates are fixed in ZOS favor. In vegas any given card game has a % chance to win or lose. That % chance does not change on the game. Vegas can not change the "drop rate" of winning or losing a game. ZOS can. They can set a % for a unique mount lets say, the customer gets a feel for the drop chance, spread sheets are made by the community so people can get an idea of how much a specific item will cost. Then ZOS changes the drop chances for a similar level mount in a future patch. People spend money on X when Y is in effect. These folks end up spending more than anticipated. Again. Unethical.

    These are only a few examples of some of the issues I have seen people complain about. WE HAVE observed what happens to games when loot crates take over.

    I already told you how i look at crates. and im sure im not the only one. and that its completely different to you people. and im so much happier because of it. i dont run around raging at the game i choose to play. i instead enjoy it. something you people apparently cant do.

    I am happy in game running around. I enjoy ESO a lot which is exactly why I am here complaining AS A CUSTOMER about the practices that ZOS is employing. Had I been aware of this before I got into ESO, I would NOT have purchased the game and the expansions. You think because I complain that I dislike the game?!?! You could not be farther from the truth.

    and those people unhappy about purchases have a choice not to purchase. the game is perfectly fine and playable without purchasing anything from crates, or even the crown store. in fact, you dont have to spend anything beyond buying the game. I bet you do though. you bought something. a sub, or a dlc, or morrowind. you didnt need to do any of those things yet you did. and then what, are you now whinging about doing so?

    Incorrect.
    1. People must pay for a monthly subscription to access in game content and/or if they intend to craft, which is a large part of the game.
    2. If people do not sub, they must pay with crowns to access content like orsinium, dark brotherhood etc.
    3. Some people play MMORPG's to collect. You can not collect mounts in ESO unless you purchase them. The game offers FOUR MOUNTS TOTAL for in game gold. 4 FOUR. Those paltry offerings do not reflect the RPG nature in the description of the game (RPG means ROLE PLAYING GAME, and is synonyms with character advancement, including collection of items, armor, mounts apparel, etc and this goes back to the days of Dungeons and Dragons by TSR.

    ESO is bland without crown store offerings or items found in loot crates.
    pressure? from random internet strangers, to buy things you dont need? OMG! call the anti bullying commission. we better get some help here! you know how much pressure iv felt to buy anything in the crown store? None! Zero! Zilch! Nada!

    if you're 'feeling pressure' to buy from the crown store, you got issues and you got the wrong type of 'friends'. time to bug out.

    What is the basic nature of most games that have existed on the planet Earth since the inception of games. I will answer this, COMPETITION

    With competition comes pressure. The pressure to win, the pressure to beat your opponent, the pressure to do something greater than doing nothing. Pressure and competition go hand in hand and it's what makes the world a better place. Without competition you would not have that computer you sit on, or the house you live in, or the clothes you wear. So to bash me for calling out the pressure (as light as the pressure might be) of collecting or performing in game is insanely ignorant. ZOS understands competition, the human psychology behind it and they are building their cash shop/loot crates to take advantage of this.

    Bottom line is that people play games for different reasons. Who are you (and your pals) to tell us that we HAVE to play or enjoy the game the way YOU do. That we have to shut up and silence our opinions when we are not happy with the direction of the game? That our opinions as PAYING CUSTOMERS are invalid. You know who you are? You are no one, you are nothing and we WILL stand up and we WILL continue to voice our displeasure with the direction of the game. Until either changes are made, or we quit and take our wallets with us and our friends and their wallets and their friends and their wallets.

    THANK DIBELLA someone get it. There is no point to anyone posting after this post.
    Edited by [Deleted User] on December 3, 2017 12:54AM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Jade1986

    "There is no point to anyone posting after this post."

    Think maybe the pro-gambling group will disagree, but let them have the last word, because now we have beaten this horse long enough :)
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  • Balamoor
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Jade1986

    "There is no point to anyone posting after this post."

    Think maybe the pro-gambling group will disagree, but let them have the last word, because now we have beaten this horse long enough :)

    Why let that stop you...serously

    There has been a non stop agenda based rant about it since season one, and the basic gist is: Zenimax is evil for having this business model and if you are okay with it you aren't just disagreeing with us you too are in fact evil...oh and you must silenced by any means necessary.

    It's like this insular group has taken the whole "Bash the Fash" hyperbole and bolted it on to this pseudo cause, it's not enough to say "okay not my thing I choose not to buy"...nope the anti crate crowd has to go after (on the forums, in the game and if they can outside of the game) anyone that supports the business model, and the justification is "Well you shouldn't have supported this "great evil"

    It's scary to me how people who basically are incapable of civil discourse (not to mention letting others enjoy different things) are now the arbitrators of what's righteous and what is evil.

    This is the last thing I'm going to say on it:

    This whole thing is going to end badly
    , too much rope has been given to self proclaimed morality police, people are being driven away due to the toxicity and one day some unstable individual is going to take it too far and that will blow back on this community and Zenimax.

    I have been saying this for awhile now, if you don't like the business model, don't participate, if you want to see things change you can speak to your local legislators....being a jerk to anyone who buys crates and masking it as "calling them out" isn't going to work..... ever. What it will do is start a land war over how people choose to spend their money and that has always been a losing game.
    Edited by Balamoor on December 2, 2017 7:10PM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Balamoor

    In a free country one has the liberty to boycot behaviour one doesn't like by not cooperating with those supporting it, but no person with empathy and decency will harass and bully a specific individual just because one is opposed to his or her actions/decisions. A civilised adult will always differentiate between the behaviour of a person and his or her inherent dignity as a human being. And not engage in personal attacks when disagreeing about policies.

    Therefore hope people here understood that when I wrote in a post above about the "evil pro-gamblers", it was only a joke. Because it is actually a bit funny how even harmless games can trigger adrenaline and testosterone when words start flying. With this human tendency it's no wonder why Earth is plagued by real wars.

    Some people get easily angry, others take it more Zen. Science is not in a position to judge which of these temperaments are objectively true, valid or correct. But personally I see no reason why one can't end a fierce debate in a friendly or at least civilised manner.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Soul Shriven
    Hello everyone,

    Recently we've had to alter/remove some comments for becoming less constructive and more flaming, which is against the Forum Rules. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive towards the topic and civil with each other, regardless of where they stand on the matter. Any continuation of these disruptions will only lead to action on one's own account.

    Thank you for understanding.
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    Staff Post
  • Slick_007
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    Raideen wrote: »

    • People do not like loot crates because the actual game content starts to take a back seat. Bugs do not get fixed, new content patches/expansions come out with larger gaps of time in between them and when they DO launch are rarely more than a days worth of content as shown by every company who makes loot crate games in the gaming industry. The companies focus more on what makes them money and less on what makes games fun. This is bad for EVERY person who plays the game.

    this is laughable. loot crates would be extremely easy to maintain and update and would take so few resources away from doing other things, if any.
    • Gambling is a real issue and taking advantage of that psychological condition in some people. Makes tons of profit sure, but its also unethical. I have no issues with profits, or even large profits. If I did I would be harassing the jewelry industry who has some of the highest profit margins of any industry on the planet. What I have issues with is double and triple charging customers to access content. We pay handsomely to purchase the game, we must pay a 15.00 a month sub if we want to access content and or craft in game, then we must purchase gamble crates if we want a new mount to theme with our character. People play MMO's for different reasons, why are the collectors and RP'ers being focus targeted for monetization?!?! By your logic we should ask ZOS to start charging crowns per dungeon run.

    gambling itself is not and has never been unethical. double and triple charging customers to access content? cosmetic content at that. yet another fake argument.
    • Loot crates are fixed in ZOS favor. In vegas any given card game has a % chance to win or lose. That % chance does not change on the game. Vegas can not change the "drop rate" of winning or losing a game. ZOS can. They can set a % for a unique mount lets say, the customer gets a feel for the drop chance, spread sheets are made by the community so people can get an idea of how much a specific item will cost. Then ZOS changes the drop chances for a similar level mount in a future patch. People spend money on X when Y is in effect. These folks end up spending more than anticipated. Again. Unethical.

    vegas cant change the odds unless they add cards. and if they could, im sure they would. You're accusing ZOS of basically being cheats and liars here. Do you have any evidence to back this up? put up or shut up.
    These are only a few examples of some of the issues I have seen people complain about. WE HAVE observed what happens to games when loot crates take over.

    List all the examples please. I bet you have 1, which is battlefront 2 which is totally different to a game that offers cosmetic items only via crates.
    I enjoy ESO a lot which is exactly why I am here complaining

    1. People must pay for a monthly subscription to access in game content and/or if they intend to craft, which is a large part of the game.

    thats an outright lie. does it make things easier? sure. is it required? no.

    ESO is bland without crown store offerings or items found in loot crates.

    you said you enjoy the game but here you call it bland. and you also say that loot crates and the crown store make it better.

    Bottom line is that people play games for different reasons. Who are you (and your pals) to tell us that we HAVE to play or enjoy the game the way YOU do.

    you want to remove my choice to buy loot crates. im not asking the game to be changed to suit me, but you're asking zos to change the game to suit you. who is telling who how to play?
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  • NyassaV
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    I am 100% happy with Micro Transactions. What I am not ok with is stupid RNG
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand Overlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info
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  • ajm1946
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    NZL Govt has been asked to look into this and ban on all crates from games in NZL
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  • Slick_007
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    ajm1946 wrote: »
    NZL Govt has been asked to look into this and ban on all crates from games in NZL

    haha. i googled this and got: nothing. like australia, hopefully nzl will reply with 'not our jurisdiction or problem'
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  • ChaosWotan
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    The pro- and anti-gambling groups in this debate belong to different moral tribes, and therefore it's rather pointless to continue the debate unless anyone got new arguments.

    ESO has the legal freedom to keep the gambling system, and those who feel that they are fundamentally opposed to it are free to leave the game or - if they really care enough to take it one step further: boycott radiant owners, the 0.2 percenters, by not playing with them in the game, but without bullying them of course. Beyond that there is not much one can do. Take it or leave it. Because it's very doubtful that ESO will listen to criticism in this part of the discussion forum, since they know that almost nobody reads it among those 10 million who bought the game. The market rules :)

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  • Raideen
    Raideen
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    Slick_007 wrote: »
    this is laughable. loot crates would be extremely easy to maintain and update and would take so few resources away from doing other things, if any.

    You assert that I am ignorant (by laughing at my statement) when anyone that has ever done anything creative can easily, EASILY attest to the fact that making art takes a lot of time, especially when its art that is at the level of the artists/designers at Bethesda. IMO some of the best artists in the gaming industry.

    Art assets are one of the MOST time consuming and expensive aspects of game design. 3D assets to not create themselves, rigging does not happen automatically, and texturing/coloring takes time as well. In fact, this can be observed by the plethora of "recolors" offered by any game company as changing the material of a 3D object is much less time consuming and in some cases where its a recolor and not a new texture, the changes can be made in a matter of minutes. This allows them to sell you another version of something they already spent time on, albeit with a new color. 2x money for 1x effort, and I have no issue with that.

    There is nothing "easy" to maintain about making new art, new 3D assets, new outfits, ALL of the cosmetic items that are released in the crown store/loot crates. You even said yourself its not play to win because its ALL COSMETIC. Well guess what my unenlightened friend, COSMETICS take a LOT OF TIME TO CREATE.

    The point I was trying to make that you clearly missed is that if the game company has their artists/designers focused on crown crates/loot crate rewards (again, items NOT obtainable in game), then those same artists/designers are NOT working on content, and trust me the people making art for the loot crates are the SAME people making art for the game. Its part of what makes the game cohesive in their art direction (on top of a very good art director).

    Its a very simple deduction. Companies who are in the business for profit (ZOS) do not have artists and designers laying around doing nothing waiting for the next loot crate patch. They have these folks working 8 or more productive hours a day making content for the game. Every hour spent on loot crates, is an hour not spent on future in game content.

    Bottom line is that your claim that upkeep of the cash shop/loot crates (which includes new offerings) being "easy to maintain" is the actual laughable statement.

    Slick_007 wrote: »
    gambling itself is not and has never been unethical. double and triple charging customers to access content? cosmetic content at that. yet another fake argument.

    Really? Ok, well in smart states like Texas someone who purchases a lottery ticket (which is gambling) CAN NOT purchase that ticket with a personal check OR a credit card. They must use cash OR a debit card. This is done for two reasons.
    1. To ensure the state collects the money being spent.
    2. To ensure that people are NOT spending money they don't have (by going into debt) on lottery tickets.

    Gambling itself is ethical or unethical, because its subjective. What is NOT subjective and what IS unethical is when the numbers can be changed (drop chances) vs the drop chance of previous loot creates for similar tier items. That is not subjective and is highly unethical. Vegas cant do this. I already pointed all of this out. I suggest in the future you study on what I am referring to if you lack the knowledge of the subject so that you may better debate your position.

    As far as double and triple charging. How do you explain a 60 dollar buy in, a 15 dollar a month sub (which I already pointed out is NECESSARY IF YOU WANT TO CRAFT IN GAME), or the stupidly expensive offerings in the crown store that are NOT obtainable in game. I see three pay tiers to access ONE content that is Elder Scrolls Online.
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    vegas cant change the odds unless they add cards. and if they could, im sure they would.
    Remember when you accused me of a strawman argument, ^ is a strawman argument.
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    You're accusing ZOS of basically being cheats and liars here. Do you have any evidence to back this up?
    There are player collected spreadsheets on the drop chances of same tier items from different loot crates on these very forums. Their collected evidence (not mine) suggests that as time as gone on, high tier items have a lower drop chance. What do you deduce from this? I already stated my guess.
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    put up or shut up.
    I believe you reported my post because you felt I was harassing you. Does this not count as harassment?
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    List all the examples please. I bet you have 1, which is battlefront 2 which is totally different to a game that offers cosmetic items only via crates.

    The entire loot crate industry is the example. Go do some research because your arguments indicate you have done none on the topic.

    Slick_007 wrote: »
    thats an outright lie. does it make things easier? sure. is it required? no.

    No, its not a lie. It's calling me a liar inflammatory and baiting? The same reason you reported my post PRIOR to you writing this one?

    Regardless no its not a lie. I have over 270 items in my crafting bag. It is impossible for one character to store all of those items in their inventory and the bank at the same time along with the gear sets, potions, food, weapons and quest items.

    IN fact, one would need a few mules to keep all of the crafting items in early levels of the game taking up precious character slots.

    The amount of time to micromanage all of the crafting loot when you cant simply send items to alts in the mail (this is done by design) coupled with the limited bank and character slots (especially for new players who have not amassed any gold, or have found a trade guild to sell stuff in) makes crafting in game so obnoxiously time consuming that one is essentially forced into subscribing if they intend to engage in crafting (which is sold as part of the game).

    The entire crafting mechanic is made convoluted by design without the crafting bag to entice players into subscribing. Based on the amount of free time in the average persons day and the amount of time it takes to micromanage crafting, one can not craft effectively, and play effectively in the same game session without the subscription. I never had this issue in World of Warcraft over 13 years.



    Slick_007 wrote: »
    you said you enjoy the game but here you call it bland. and you also say that loot crates and the crown store make it better.

    I honestly do not know how many times I have to tell to you before you comprehend that they are not mutually exclusive.
    I CAN like the game and at the EXACT SAME TIME, in the EXACT SAME BREATH call it bland.

    ESO in its native 40-60 dollar state is BLAND without more mounts, more outfits, more hair designs, more non combat pets etc that are FOUND in the loot crates cash shop. MY POINT IS THAT 15 DOLLARS A MONTH SUBSCRIPTIONS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THAT CONTENT WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY FOR IT AGAIN (said in bold because you missed it before).
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    you want to remove my choice to buy loot crates. im not asking the game to be changed to suit me, but you're asking zos to change the game to suit you. who is telling who how to play?

    No, no no...not at all. I in no way shape or form want you to stop buying loot crates or keep you from it. What I want is for people who have shown loyalty and made the commitment through monthly subscriptions to have access to that content, like other popular MMORPG's have done in the past and in the current day.

    In order for one to play ESO in the same way they have enjoyed the MMORPG genre by the standards set over 1.5 decades ago, one must buy the game, pay a monthly subscription and purchase crown items on a fairly regular basis. That is triple charging a customer to fully access this game and in my opinion and many many others opinions, that is unethical.



    Edited by Raideen on December 3, 2017 3:20PM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Here is a new argument regarding ethics:

    Among 10 million buyers of ESO, most of them are not visiting this forum, and not this section of it, but many new gamers will eventually see the radiant mounts and prb think: "Cool, if I just play this game long enough I will either find a quest that will give me that mount as a reward or I will be able to buy it, with crowns or gems". But they are busy with real life, not having time to investigate how one can actually get the radiant mounts. Consequently, it may take months or perhaps a year before millions of casual gamers will discover that they will never get these radiant mounts running around, because they are behind a wall of gambling with a horrible RNG. Misleading people in that way is unethical.
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  • Raideen
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Here is a new argument regarding ethics:

    Among 10 million buyers of ESO, most of them are not visiting this forum, and not this section of it, but many new gamers will eventually see the radiant mounts and prb think: "Cool, if I just play this game long enough I will either find a quest that will give me that mount as a reward or I will be able to buy it, with crowns or gems". But they are busy with real life, not having time to investigate how one can actually get the radiant mounts. Consequently, it may take months or perhaps a year before millions of casual gamers will discover that they will never get these radiant mounts running around, because they are behind a wall of gambling with a horrible RNG. Misleading people in that way is unethical.

    Agreed.

    I am 2 months (roughly) new to the game. I knew there was a crown shop, but what I did not know is that I could not obtain those mounts in game. I did not know that the game only offered 4 mounts in game, I also did not know that a ZOS designer adamantly said they would NEVER put more mounts up for gold.

    Based on industry standards set for decades now, its acceptable for a customer to believe they will be able to collect many mounts, outfits, armor, pets and other various cosmetics in a game without the need for additional purchases, especially when there is a subscription associated (and it does not matter what you want to call it, paying a fixed amount of money each month to a game and its auto charged to your credit card is for all intents and purposes a "subscription"). I think I played a week before I subscribed which based on other games is 3 weeks premature in paying when you consider other games give your first month included with the purchase of the game.

    Customers are not unreasonable (I say most because I have encountered completely unreasonable customers). Most customers understand a business needs to sustain a profit to stay in business. I have no issues with paying for my leisure time. What I have issues with is buying into an game under the premise that I will have access to the content of that game(again, based on the accepted established definition of what an MMORPG is), but then in reality must dish out insane amounts of money for content I was under the impression would be part of the purchase or subscription price.

    It puts a bad taste in my mouth and puts me on the defensive and instead of feeling like an valued customer, I feel like I am being taken advantage of, which makes me think twice about spending more money which is kind of the opposite of what they want their player base to do.

    Treat me as a valued customer and my wallet is aimed at you.
    Treat me like a cash cow and my wallet gets aimed at someone else.
    Edited by Raideen on December 3, 2017 9:28PM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Radiant crate gambling is obviously not unethical compared to any serious crime at all. Anybody who is not into rpg gaming can easily get the impression that critics of the radiant mounts are exaggerating the seriousness of the offense. So in one way I understand the perspective of people like @Balamoor. Compared to real problems this debate is not even a storm in a tea cup. Though the larger discussion about using computer games to trick or tempt people into gambling is serious enough, especially if this trend spreads to the whole gaming industry.

    The devs may not like the negative feedback above, but they should take it as a compliment, because it proves that they have created a product with such high quality in general that people spend time writing threads like this one here. No other game is worth it, but ESO still has enough potential to give the devs a few more chances to create impressive DLCs, because they have already proven that they can do it. But until that happens I rather put ESO on ice during the winter and play FFXIV and GW2 now that the graphics and aesthetics of these games have become almost as good as ESO, on max settings with a high-end computer. While the pro-gamblers, who are not yet tired of good ol' ESO, can stay in Tamriel and have a great time too :)

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  • Slick_007
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    Raideen wrote: »

    Art assets are one of the MOST time consuming and expensive aspects of game design.

    i never suggested otherwise. what i suggested is there would be different teams to work on different projects, therefore the people working on crown crates may have absolutely nothing to do with expansions, therefore no resources would be missing from those projects. Unless ZOS chimes in here, we will never know. but its possible.

    Bottom line is that your claim that upkeep of the cash shop/loot crates (which includes new offerings) being "easy to maintain" is the actual laughable statement.

    there are a number of items in there which are identical except for colour. People on these forums have noted it too. Sure, there is effort required in changing those, and creating new items, but the overall difficulty compared to bringing out a new expansion is nowhere near on the same scale. Therefore it is relatively easy compared to the other jobs. These people do a great job, and im sure with greater difficulty comes greater resources too.
    Gambling itself is ethical or unethical, because its subjective. What is NOT subjective and what IS unethical is when the numbers can be changed (drop chances) vs the drop chance of previous loot creates for similar tier items. That is not subjective and is highly unethical. Vegas cant do this.

    because vegas cant add cards to the deck. if eso were using a deck of cards and could simple add a card, you might have a point. but you're comparing two totally different systems and trying to claim they are the same, but one system owner is cheating. you cant do that.
    As far as double and triple charging. How do you explain a 60 dollar buy in, a 15 dollar a month sub (which I already pointed out is NECESSARY IF YOU WANT TO CRAFT IN GAME), or the stupidly expensive offerings in the crown store that are NOT obtainable in game. I see three pay tiers to access ONE content that is Elder Scrolls Online.

    lets make this absolutely clear: IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO SUB IN ORDER TO CRAFT. No matter how you wanna spin this, it is not necessary. no way, no how. the only way you can make a claim that it is, is to lie.
    Can you craft without a sub? Yes you can. And you even said so in this same post (see further down where i quote that)
    There are player collected spreadsheets on the drop chances of same tier items from different loot crates on these very forums. Their collected evidence (not mine) suggests that as time as gone on, high tier items have a lower drop chance. What do you deduce from this? I already stated my guess.

    you are the one accusing them of being cheats. Produce your evidence.
    put up or shut up.

    I believe you reported my post because you felt I was harassing you. Does this not count as harassment?

    It is a phrase meaning show your evidence, or be quiet and stop making claims you cant back up. That is not harassment. Unless of course you mean your claims against ZOS.

    The entire loot crate industry is the example. Go do some research because your arguments indicate you have done none on the topic.

    its not upto me to research your argument for you. Its upto you to back up your claims. which you seem unwilling to do. My guess is you cant.
    Slick_007 wrote: »
    thats an outright lie. does it make things easier? sure. is it required? no.

    No, its not a lie. It's calling me a liar inflammatory and baiting? The same reason you reported my post PRIOR to you writing this one?[/quote]

    You made a false statement, knowing its false. Subs are not required to be able to craft. You even said so in the same post. See further down where i quote that part.
    dictionary.com: Lie: to speak falsely or utter untruth knowingly

    Direct your complaints to them.
    Regardless no its not a lie. I have over 270 items in my crafting bag. It is impossible for one character to store all of those items in their inventory and the bank at the same time along with the gear sets, potions, food, weapons and quest items.

    IN fact, one would need a few mules to keep all of the crafting items in early levels of the game taking up precious character slots.

    200 bag space +240 bank space, unsubbed = 440. you say you have "over" 270. that leaves you with upto 170 bag spaces for other items.
    The entire crafting mechanic is made convoluted by design without the crafting bag to entice players into subscribing. Based on the amount of free time in the average persons day and the amount of time it takes to micromanage crafting, one can not craft effectively, and play effectively in the same game session without the subscription. I never had this issue in World of Warcraft over 13 years.

    So, your point is that you CAN craft without a sub, its just more convenient with a sub. Which is what i said. Here you are saying i was right all along, in the same post that you claim im not.


    ESO in its native 40-60 dollar state is BLAND without more mounts, more outfits, more hair designs, more non combat pets etc that are FOUND in the loot crates cash shop. MY POINT IS THAT 15 DOLLARS A MONTH SUBSCRIPTIONS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO THAT CONTENT WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY FOR IT AGAIN (said in bold because you missed it before).

    but it was perfectly fine before loot crates. Pay for it again? you havent paid the first time for whats in the crates. Like many current games, you pay for the base game, and if you want stuff like season passes, dlc, special items, you gotta buy em. They are not included in the base game. By your argument, morrowind should be free. That isnt how ESO is setup, nor many other games. even your beloved world of warcraft which you played for 13yrs and somehow still didnt realise this.

    No, no no...not at all. I in no way shape or form want you to stop buying loot crates or keep you from it. What I want is for people who have shown loyalty and made the commitment through monthly subscriptions to have access to that content, like other popular MMORPG's have done in the past and in the current day.

    In order for one to play ESO in the same way they have enjoyed the MMORPG genre by the standards set over 1.5 decades ago, one must buy the game, pay a monthly subscription and purchase crown items on a fairly regular basis. That is triple charging a customer to fully access this game and in my opinion and many many others opinions, that is unethical.

    what? what? i swear you arent even taking this seriously anymore. tripled charged?
    ESO is not any other game. Apparently you were quite happy with it before crates. You can still enjoy the game that way that you were apparently so happy with. standards set over 15yrs ago? Times change buddy. Learn to deal with it. This is the new standard, and hell, ESO wasnt even the first to do it this way.
    im a long term sub on ESO, and i dont even think we should get this access that you demand.
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Again, no point arguing with pro-gambling people who either lack social antennas or don't realise that it's not in their own self-interest to support the radiant gambling system, because entering a town on a radiant mount is like driving a red Ferrari in a London traffic jam, with everybody looking down on you, thinking you are a newly rich d.o.uc.h.b.a.g.

    If radiant gambling is "the new standard" in the gaming industry it will make rpg games into rich persons' games. Dividing the gaming community into the haves and haves not. The problem is that flashing your bling in the gaming community just makes you look uncool. Here is an example from the real world to illustrate this:

    In the 1990s a son of a billionaire wanted to be a part of our subculture, so he went to the most expensive stores and bought clothes that looked like the ones we had, in order to fit in, which backfired of course when it was revealed that he was slumming in super-expensive clothes.

    Mmorpgs are social games, so a person doesn't have much emotional IQ if he or she thinks that it's cool to ride around on a radiant mount and supporting a gambling system that makes the best rpg items unavailable to over 99 percent of the gaming community.
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  • Hokiewa
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Hokiewa wrote: »
    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    I suspect you are just trolling now, and that's okay, in a way, but it's still misleading marketing to sell a game as an rpg and then put some of the best rpg items behind a wall of gambling. Like selling tickets to Disneyland without telling customers that when they enter they have to get involved in gambling in order to have a 0.2 percent chance of enjoying the best rides.

    It's hardly revolutionary to change marketing tactics to respond to changes in that very market. ESO wasn't nearly the first game to switch from a sub to cash store/loot boxes. DDO, STO, LOTRO just off the top of my head didn't have store options/boxes initially, but then changed their marketing/model to respond to market changes. I see you didn't (again) address the fact that you want legislation to be imposed that would restrict a business's ability to adapt to those market changes......Not surprising though.

    I do appreciate that you continue to use the term "best" rides because I know exactly what you are implying. However, when performance is equitable across all of the mounts, best is not the adjective an honest person would use. In your case, you should be upfront and state "the most visually appealing rides to me" ;)

    Its not just the mounts. It is the exclusive haircuts, the exclusive cosmetics ( as in paint, dyes and lipsticks for example ). And if they were to follow the trends, the they will be forced to eventually follow the trend of not selling rng crates in a game that is not rated 18+ , the legal gambling age in the US.

    There is no trend, you keep implying that action has been taken but nothing literally nothing has happened other then inquiries have been made. The few countries that have passed (years ago) any legislation regarding RNG crates/boxes/bags whatever you want to call them, the practice just continues under a different name and a slight procedural modification of the steps required to do exactly the same thing.

    It certainly won't happen widespread in the U.S., there is legal precedent set in multiple Circuit Courts (if you found any willing to challenge established precedent) siding with the gaming companies. This is fact, not a trend.

    Except those are old cases and the new ones are ongoing. Its ok though, eventually people will get sick of companies spending time and resources on rng scam crates, and will move on to games that are not being run by greedy old men. Star Citizen is in fact around the corner.

    Star Citizen......really? That's your hope? I mean, I did have a seriously long chuckle at this post. The never ending game development which nobody really knows if the full game will ever be released. It's in a perennial Alpha state. Not to mention, you have issues with THIS game monetizing everything, are you really aware of the monetization steps Star Citizen has taken prior to release of the FULL game? You honestly think they won't have a cash shop and some RNG loot crates in it........I mean seriously, that's simply laughable.....
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Hokiewa

    Realistically, you are prb right, in regards to the future of cosmetic items gambling. The fact that the ESO discussion forum is not full of protests, and that we in the anti-"pure gambling" group don't get hundreds or thousands of "agrees", is a good indication that most people simply don't care, so far at least.

    Without massive protests, ESO will prb keep the new radiant system of pure gambling, because it will give them money even if only 0.2 percent of 10 million ESO owners spend money on it, while the rest just sits there, disillusioned, as a silent majority.

    Edited by ChaosWotan on December 4, 2017 11:33AM
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  • Hokiewa
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Hokiewa

    Realistically, you are prb right, in regards to the future of cosmetic items gambling. The fact that the ESO discussion forum is not full of protests, and that we in the anti-"pure gambling" group don't get hundreds or thousands of "agrees", is a good indication that most people simply don't care, so far at least.

    Without massive protests, ESO will prb keep the new radiant system of pure gambling, because it will give them money even if only 0.2 percent of 10 million ESO owners spend money on it, while the rest just sits there, disillusioned, as a silent majority.

    You never know, much like businesses, people's tastes and distastes can change on a whim. BF's blunder may be a catalyst but realistically, I think the gaming world needs another disaster like that to promote the change they want to see. It's difficult to say because even I am distracted by the next shiny lol
    Edited by Hokiewa on December 4, 2017 11:44AM
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  • ChaosWotan
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    If the numbers tell ESO that people are not wasting money on the new relatively cheap-looking apex mounts, and that many feel slightly embarrased about being the only player in town on a flashy radiant mount, then ESO will prb tweak the gambling system in order to improve sales. But we gamers don't have the numbers, so we can't know whether pure gambling in an rpg game is rational from a business perspective or not.
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  • Easily_Lost
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    I have been reading all of the posts. I have figured out many things from what I have read, it seems that the "anti Crown Crate" people want one of two things to happen 1) the government to step it and take them away or 2) ZOS to stop using them. If it is making ZOS money they will continue to have them.

    Why can't people be responsible for there own actions or choices. If your talking about the kids then the parents should be responsible for there child's action.
    Remember #1 bringing the government in on something like this, 'be careful what you are asking for'.

    Choice is what it is all about. Whether to buy Crown Crates or not.

    OH and by the way @ ChaosWotan I guess I am one of those douchbags. I received my three free crates and never got a mount. I wish I had because I would have ridden it everywhere and been proud.
    PC - NA - AD
    started April 2015
    PVE & Solo only

    Meet the LOST family: CP 1250+
    Easily Lost Crafter - lvl 50 - Sorcerer Orc ( knows all traits and most styles )
    Easily Lost-W - lvl 50 - Warden Imperial
    Forever Lost - lvl 50 Sorcerer


    CROWN CRATES: It doesn't affect gameplay, it's not mandatory, it's cosmetic only. If it helps to support the game and ZOS, I support it! Say YES to crown crates.
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  • ChaosWotan
    ChaosWotan
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    @Easily_Lost

    The radiant gambling system is catering to rich people (and gambling addicts). Rich people are usually very focused on status, but it's not status in a mmorpg to buy items that are inaccessible to over 99 percent of the gaming community. So why spend hundreds of dollars on radiant items that will increase the risk of making you disliked by other people in the game? That is not even in the self-interest of narcissists.

    However, if you are one of those guys who basically don't give a *** about what other people think in a social game, then go ahead and be proud when flashing your bling in public.

    I like stubborn individuality, but it's a fact that human beings are social creatures concerned about status, even when they pretend not to care about it, so is it really a smart business model to sell insanely expensive items when everybody knows that most people will react in a negative way, on some level, when seeing radiant items that they themselves can never have?

    Edited by ChaosWotan on December 4, 2017 3:07PM
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