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A compromise in the crate gambling debate

  • ChaosWotan
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    @lordrichter

    If the radiant mounts become regular apex mounts you can buy for gems 2-4 crate seasons later, then that is prb the easiest and best solution for all parties. Good suggestion :)
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  • Ratzkifal
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    If 70-80 percent of ESO gamers had subscribed, we might not have gotten the CC system. The ESO gaming community is partly to blame for the introduction of crate gambling, probably, unless the brass in ESO have become totally greedy the last two years.
    While the gaming community is to blame for Crown Crates, and loot boxes in general, we would have gotten Crown Crates anyway.

    Crown Crates are about raising boatloads of cash (via sales of Crowns) to bring money in so that they can reduce the outside investment needed for the next game that ZOS makes. We are talking upwards of 100 million to make a new game, and that is a lot of ESO Plus subscriptions. It is a lot of Crowns, too.

    Yes, I also know that Crates come with Stocking Stuffers that are designed to make it all seem worth the expense.

    If only we could get some transparency into their newest projects. I'm sure advertising the crown crates as a start-up-lottery would benefit them a lot and make them seem less evil.

    The stocking stuffers has been the only stuff I ever wanted from the crates so far. I even bought a single box after calculating my chances and gem rate which told me I would get what I want in any case (thanks to the free crates).
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    Hokiewa wrote: »
    I understand your opinion but it's all simply subjective. Not fair is purely subjective as the number of people buying the crates far exceeds the number refusing to (if this were not true, then you wouldn't see the move to include more crate exclusive items as we do now).
    A fair price is subjective and determined by the consumer. As far as "screwing" the customer, it's a seesaw effect. Profit/loss analyses are compromised of opportunity cost, actual purchasing data etc...Currently, it's clearly more profitable to "screw" a small number of vocal people and continue to offer to the larger number what they are clearly buying. Let's also be clear, ESO's crown crate system is not remotely the same thing as BF2 which started this outcry.

    As for being like a casino, a game developer is again aiming to maximize profit. If people buy it, they will continue to do it.
    That's it. People aren't sitting in their offices cackling with glee at these decisions, they are simply making decisions that are best for their investors.

    Never claimed it was like BF2. I would have stopped playing ESO if it was like it.
    I think your assumption that there are more people using the system than people not using it is not well-founded. Where do you take that from? Was there a poll I missed? The trend can be explained with "We get more money out than we put in. Let's try to make it more efficient!"

    Yes, since this is not a purely mathematical numbers game, "fair" ends up being subjective and who knows, maybe we are a very vocal extreme group that thinks of it as unfair, but I doubt we are the minority here.
    Also, I have only bought one crate, which was a calculated risk for me, but I don't intend to buy more. Because of the free crown crates I have three ugly hats, three ugly tattoos and one costume I didn't ask for, which I would have never bought in the shop. Yes, I would have paid ZOS for them if I had bought crates, giving them profit, but right now I would rather avoid paying for things I don't want. With the system working as it does, I won't even attempt to get the facial Dremora tattoos for roleplay even though I probably would have bought it in the store.
    To get back to my original examples, Overwatch and Hearthstone don't contain bad draws in their boxes. In Overwatch you have a use for everything since you have all the characters unlocked, but in ESO people who have only male characters and don't like crossdressing complain about getting dresses.
    In Hearthstone you can dust any card while in ESO you are forced to accept the Nixhound (which I was actually happy about). Change that, and I will change my mind about it.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on November 29, 2017 3:39PM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • ChaosWotan
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    Beautiful lady to a nerd in a bar:

    Are you that man who spent 200 dollars on a cosmetic item in a computer game?

    No, that's not me. I would never do that.

    But your friends over there just said that you paid 200 bucks for a radiant camel?

    No, don't know about any camel - and and... they are not my friends. But can I buy you a drink?

    No.

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  • Balamoor
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    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Balamoor

    "Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things"

    [snip]

    And bargaining is obviously overrated.

    [Edit for politics]
    Edited by ZOS_MattL on November 30, 2017 2:22PM
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  • UrbanAvalon
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    I hate loot crates (they are, and have always been gambling). However, I'm part of an all-Orc guild that will be shelling out the 12,000-15,000 crowns for the new Orc Manor as a guild hall... I needed that Malacath Statue. It's bind-on-pickup, a rare drop, and cost 100 crystals... So congratulation ZOS, you got me to shell out 5000 crowns to make sure I could get it. I'm not going to be investing any more $ in ESO for a while, at least not until the dirty feeling wears off.

    The jokes on them though, if they made a limited edition furniture package of the Statue and a few copies of those Malacath Banners I would have easily spent 7500 crowns.

    I did get a Flame Wolf though, the things a joke. 50% of the time it's jump/sprint growl sounds like a Kazoo. I think I'll stick to using the default horse.
    [PS4] [NA] [DC] [Mauloch's Legion]:
    Aegir gro-Narok - Stamina Dragonknight (Orc; Main, PvP, Crafter)
    Rias gro-Narok - Stamina Sorcerer (Orc; DPS)
    Rag gro-Narok - Stamina Nightblade (Orc; PvP, Brother of Dag)
    Dag gro-Narok - Magicka Templar (Orc; Healer, Brother of Rag)
    Fen gro-Narok - Magicka Dragonknight (Orc; Tank)
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  • Jade1986
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    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?
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  • Hokiewa
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?

    Danger? Seriously? Good grief..............some levels of hyperbole are best left untyped.....
    Edited by Hokiewa on November 29, 2017 5:00PM
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  • Jade1986
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    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?

    Danger? Seriously? Good grief..............

    Games Have suffered quality loss over the years because of this nonsense. And the freemium generation sadly doesnt even realize it.
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  • Hokiewa
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?

    Danger? Seriously? Good grief..............

    Games Have suffered quality loss over the years because of this nonsense. And the freemium generation sadly doesnt even realize it.

    the problem with that supposition is that choices are far more available now then before the F2P model existed. It was a primary reason for the model to begin with. People began rotating games frequently, dropping subs, and ultimately game producers had no choice but to go to the model that offered more financial stability. You aren't guaranteeing higher quality games (which is of course subjective which you continually err on) because ultimately in the remote chance that all forms of loot crates vanish, companies will simply move everything to a cash store at ultimately higher prices. Paying extra for things once considered a part of an actual game is NEVER going to disappear from the gaming industry.
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  • Jade1986
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    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?

    Danger? Seriously? Good grief..............

    Games Have suffered quality loss over the years because of this nonsense. And the freemium generation sadly doesnt even realize it.

    the problem with that supposition is that choices are far more available now then before the F2P model existed. It was a primary reason for the model to begin with. People began rotating games frequently, dropping subs, and ultimately game producers had no choice but to go to the model that offered more financial stability. You aren't guaranteeing higher quality games (which is of course subjective which you continually err on) because ultimately in the remote chance that all forms of loot crates vanish, companies will simply move everything to a cash store at ultimately higher prices. Paying extra for things once considered a part of an actual game is NEVER going to disappear from the gaming industry.

    Even if they moved everything into the store as a direct purchase at a higher price, you by definition, will have more options. As it is now, you are forced to buy ac rown crate, limiting your ability to get said item you want. Crown crates = less options, direct purchase = more. And the attitude that since certain practices which are predatory are being and have been practiced for a while now will never go away is very defeatist.

    You want that cool car in agame about 10 years ago , earn it. Now? Pay for it and you have a very slim POSSIBILITY that you will get it. If you dont see a problem with that, then there really is no point in debating further.
    Edited by Jade1986 on November 29, 2017 5:14PM
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  • idk
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    I don't think anyone has anything other than a guess on how the current discussion will end.

    Especially since the games that are being discussed, Star Wars, have a PTW aspect to their crates and ESO does not it may not affect ESO crates at all.
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  • Jade1986
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    idk wrote: »
    I don't think anyone has anything other than a guess on how the current discussion will end.

    Especially since the games that are being discussed, Star Wars, have a PTW aspect to their crates and ESO does not it may not affect ESO crates at all.

    I think that p2w aspect is what got the ball rolling. PEople realize now that these crates are gambling, and if they are found to be that, well, then companies who do it will be forced to remove them, or raise their game ratings to AO, which as we all know, is the death of a game.
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  • Hokiewa
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I don't think anyone has anything other than a guess on how the current discussion will end.

    Especially since the games that are being discussed, Star Wars, have a PTW aspect to their crates and ESO does not it may not affect ESO crates at all.

    I think that p2w aspect is what got the ball rolling. PEople realize now that these crates are gambling, and if they are found to be that, well, then companies who do it will be forced to remove them, or raise their game ratings to AO, which as we all know, is the death of a game.

    Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything at the moment. You keep citing this as fact when is not remotely true. In the U.S., this matter has gone before circuit courts before, precedent has been set, and they have ruled in the gaming companies favor. You can choose to ignore the realities but they exist. Regardless, you are correct about one thing, further discussion with you is pointless
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  • U_D_D_I_N_R
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    To be honest crown crates are optional there not hurting the performance of the game, it’s the players who complain that are killing the game off, I’ve seen so many complaints on this forum about lag and pvp and how dungeons are *** cause of noobs faking roles, I think maybe those people need a break for once, honestly it’s the best thing to do, if you’re not happy.
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Hokiewa

    Big business and big government are strong in the US, the gambling country in the world next to Monaco. In countries like Norway, however, ESO may one day have to put a gambling warning on the cover of the disc version of the game. Many parents will then not allow their kids to play it. A simple way to avoid or reduce gambling accusations is to follow @lordrichter's idea of making radiant items into apex stuff one can buy with gems 3-4 crate seasons later. That is the best solution, given things as they are now.

    @U_D_D_I_N_R

    As mentioned hundred times earlier: ESO is an rpg game, and cool cosmetic items are a natural part of the "performance" of an rpg game.


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  • LonePirate
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    If you’re suggesting a minimum number of crates purchased in order to receive an apex reward, then just put the apex rewards in the Crown Store for the same price as the cost for that minimum number of crates. Eliminate the chance factor and replace it with a guarantee.
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  • Thorgrimn
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    30 crates is a good compromise. Another solution is to just have the mounts also availible for sale for crowns. They already have the rare mounts for crown gems rewards but getting those is also a gamble.
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  • coop500
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    If 70-80 percent of ESO gamers had subscribed, we might not have gotten the CC system. The ESO gaming community is partly to blame for the introduction of crate gambling, probably, unless the brass in ESO have become totally greedy the last two years.

    Oh yes just blame us....
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still! Or maybe Lilmothiit companion?
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  • U_D_D_I_N_R
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Hokiewa

    Big business and big government are strong in the US, the gambling country in the world next to Monaco. In countries like Norway, however, ESO may one day have to put a gambling warning on the cover of the disc version of the game. Many parents will then not allow their kids to play it. A simple way to avoid or reduce gambling accusations is to follow @lordrichter's idea of making radiant items into apex stuff one can buy with gems 3-4 crate seasons later. That is the best solution, given things as they are now.

    @U_D_D_I_N_R

    As mentioned hundred times earlier: ESO is an rpg game, and cool cosmetic items are a natural part of the "performance" of an rpg game.


    Mate people can ignore the fact that they have a ugly *** horse and they sometimes do special event mount packs, yes they eventually go into the crown crate system but you can get them before they get into the crates and they cost about 3k crowns which is kind of fair ,without having to spend $100/€100/£100 to get it before it goes into the crates
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  • Jade1986
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    Hokiewa wrote: »
    Jade1986 wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    I don't think anyone has anything other than a guess on how the current discussion will end.

    Especially since the games that are being discussed, Star Wars, have a PTW aspect to their crates and ESO does not it may not affect ESO crates at all.

    I think that p2w aspect is what got the ball rolling. PEople realize now that these crates are gambling, and if they are found to be that, well, then companies who do it will be forced to remove them, or raise their game ratings to AO, which as we all know, is the death of a game.

    Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything at the moment. You keep citing this as fact when is not remotely true. In the U.S., this matter has gone before circuit courts before, precedent has been set, and they have ruled in the gaming companies favor. You can choose to ignore the realities but they exist. Regardless, you are correct about one thing, further discussion with you is pointless

    Do I have the ability to get those cosmetics from the store without buying crown crates? No. So by definition, if I want those items, I have to ....

    ....wait for it....

    ....gamble for them.
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  • iiYuki
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    They would never do it since they can make so much more from people opening hundreds of crates trying to get one item, rather than people who open 30 and call it quits since they at least got one or worse people who then think that if there's a good enough chance of not getting anything in 30 crates it's not worth their money.
    From the community drop rate percentages the radiant mounts are around a 0.2% drop chance and the apex mounts have around a 2.5%, due to the small sample base it could be more or less but this sounds about right since on the reaper crates I opened around 200 of them and found 2 of the apex mounts and no radiant's.
    "Play how you want... unless its not how we intended you to play in which case we'll nerf it".
    - ZO$

    - The ZO$ Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmUJWP_ebsQ
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  • dsalter
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    they need to make the consumable crap actually worth wanting... atm i cringe whenever i get a soulgem... mimic stone... poison or potion (in my last session of 15 crates EVERY SINGLE ONE had either poisons or potions, sometimes multiples of both!) and it just adds to the rage of getting them...

    i know its intended and the way "pacrooti" eggs you on to try again doesnt help it. this type of dirty play is what gambling addicts are vulnerable to.
    and the free crates may seem good will. but really its intended to grab at those resisting their addiction. its foul play and cant wait for UK gambling laws to take it serious.
    PLEASE REPLY TO ME WITH @dsalter otherwise i'm likely to miss the reply if its not my own thread

    EU - [Arch Mage Dave] Altmer Sorcerer
    Fight back at the crates and boxes, together we can change things.

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  • Strider__Roshin
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    I've never paid for a single loot crate because the concept is stupid. If more of you people had my mentality we wouldn't have loot crates. These things exist because people pay for them.
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  • Kay1
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    In Overwatch and Hearthstone you can get packs/boxes just by playing. Not saying that it should be like this in ESO too

    Yeah you right, why this completely broken game crowded with imbalanced classes with the worst servers we all haven't see in a while should give crates by just playing, it's not like we weren't able to play the most played feature of this game for almost 3 weeks after a patch completely broke this game even more and they even asked people to wait another full week because they didn't want to do it sooner.

    How can people be so selfish to ask for free crates, like what is going on with this world asking everything for free.
    :)
    K1 The Big Monkey
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  • Raideen
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    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.



    Its not a small group of people. That is where you are mistaken.
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  • ComboBreaker88
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    That is still gambling... lmao. Soon enough ZoS is going to have to *** down the gamble box system. Too many countries are catching on that these companies are exploiting children.
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  • Balamoor
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    Jade1986 wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.




    I find it hilarious how on one hand you dismiss the MAJORITY of eso players ( it is well known that NO ONE wanted crown crates ) , saying " oh they are just cosmetic, ", not grasping the danger this corporate greed presents to gaming now days. And then on the other hand you say we are endangering your gameplay by standing up against this predatory practice.

    Well what is it? Are they cosmetic ? Or important to gameplay? Hmmmmm?

    They are cosmetic they do nothing to make you progress in the game and for no one wanting them a metric crap ton of people are spending Scrooge McDuck amounts of money on them, I just spent more on the last season than all the other seasons combined as have many of my friends...and I'll probably buy more before it's over....so much for no one wanting them.

    Standing up is a bit of a understatement to what the anti crate crowd is doing....and folks like you either downplay the harassment and bullying that happens consistently or flat out deny it, and so far ZoS has chosen to turn a blind eye to it....I wonder though just how long that will last though.


    Personally I think you are getting way to worked up over pixels and how other people spend their money.
    Edited by Balamoor on November 30, 2017 5:36AM
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  • Balamoor
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    Raideen wrote: »
    Balamoor wrote: »
    Personally I don't see the big deal either way, I'm perfectly fine the way things are...I do find it odd the stages that are being displayed anger denial bargaining......it's just cosmetic pixels no big deal, Iv'e seem people spend a lot more on a lot more frivolous things.

    I think the more sinister part of all this is how a very small group of people have divided the community and actually affected other people game play because they aren't getting their way.



    Its not a small group of people. That is where you are mistaken.

    I see maybe twelve people on the forum that constantly hammer at this nonsense , and I'm pretty sure three of those are alt accounts. So...small group.
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