Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE

  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    exiars10 wrote: »
    Last night I finally tried Maelstrom Arena... on normal. So much bugs, lag spikes and getting stuck...
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5172088/#Comment_5172088

    You all know how I like to post from reddit about archers, so here we go again:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8mfdfq/i_want_to_do_a_non_meta_build_how_screwed_am_i/
    You're intended to have 2 weapon sets. There are viable builds for DW/2h, DW/Bow, 2H/Bow, and for Warden Bow/Bow due to class abilities. Technically BowBow is possible on NB as well, it's just a lot harder.
    Same old parroting except new news is bow/bow on NB is technically possible :)... Maybe by the end of the year reddit will accept that NB archers are reality... Nah, who I kid, they won't unless Alcast posts build :p.

    My Summerset experience on my NB archer
    Sellistrix Monster set - this set is either useless or great. From DPS side, it's statistical error and it's obviously useless at skeleton parses and at bosses' fights who are CC immune. But for overland content and trash fights - it's both great and hilarious. Also it's really underrated and hilarious in Cyrodiil at choke points :p but it's not about PvP...

    2x Sellistrix + 5x Hunding's Rage + 5x Spriggan's Thorn VS 1x Kra'gh + 5x Hunding's Rage + 3x Agility + 3x Unfathomable Darkness --> no DPS difference in my case when parsed, but Sellistrix is very usefull for trash fights so yea.

    I rarely play group dungeons any more (unless somebody needs it i.e. friends or guild mates) but I did skeleton parses anyway.

    My skeleton DPS parses
    The new guild I joined has 3M skeleton but I have weird lag spikes inside their home...
    Shadow Silk vs Rearming Trap - RT has 1k higher DPS, but SS is obviously better if group has one stamina DD (bonus if it's obviously DK) and it can and mostly hits more trash.
    I'm doing 24-25k with lag problems.

    Then I TPed to the estate of my trader's guild, and it has only 6M skeleton... I admit I have stamina sustain problem even with Dubious Camoran Throne (1,3k stamina recovery is simply not enough even I constantly used trash stamina potions - so using one recovery glyph is a solution), I also used Reaper‘s Mark which is DPS gain on paper except it ruins a bit rotation. I also didn't use RT or SS as I simply can't sustain it. Tried several times and it's ~22k. I found out what are the problems (outside sustain) but I'm simply too lazy as in PvE I'm mostly just questing (I have still so much to play).

    TL; DR
    My lowest DPS (worst case scenario) is raised from 20k to 22k simply because bow's light and heavy attacks are buffed.
    One stamina recovery glyph is a must (infused is great) so I don't have to use too much heavy attacks...

    20180526172335_1.jpg

    Keep Leeching strikes (as NB) up all the time and you will have better sustain by a lot. As for DPS, lags are always awful DPS losing source on NB, but eventually with practice you will improve a lot.
    My fail :/ - I completely forgot about Leeching Strikes as I don't need it for the vast majority of PvE content I play and yet I constantly use Bull Netch on Warden... It's pretty obvious I have DPS loss on high health targets (above 3M) because of the stamina sustain.

    Speaking about Warden archer - I gave up from farming Spriggan's set. RNG is beyond garbage plus seeing my sustain problems with NB... In the new guild I talked with guild master and they run Craglorn normal trials so I applied as Warden tank and I'll try to get VO jewelry and two divine armor pieces (of course not head and shoulder). 12 players x 3 runs - I hope I'll get it and I have gold to offer buying missing parts if needed. So my Warden should run: 2x Sellistrix + 5x Hunding's Rage + 5x Vicious Serpent.
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • RT_Frank
    RT_Frank
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    I have been following this post recently in the hopes of making an endgame archer and I have some questions.

    First, has anyone tested how much more survivable archers are compared to their melee counterparts? I'm specifically mentioning survivability on fights where stam usually dies a lot like AA mage, vAS, etc.

    Second, this thread seems to prefer nb archers than Warden ones (different from most threads). I def agree; however, has anyone compared the dps difference between a strict and less strict rotations? I've seen the 47k dummy nb vid and around 39k dummy Warden vids (alcast). It seems that the nb archer's rotation is wayy harder and requires stricter animation canceling and weaving, not to mention potion use is required here (major brutality/savagery).

    Basically, if I want a build that has a less strict rotation (like weaving but light ani canceling) and not have to use a bunch of pots per fight, should I not bother with a nb archer and go to Warden, or would a nb archer still do the trick? (Note only these two classes are under my consideration)
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    RT_Frank wrote: »
    I have been following this post recently in the hopes of making an endgame archer and I have some questions.

    First, has anyone tested how much more survivable archers are compared to their melee counterparts? I'm specifically mentioning survivability on fights where stam usually dies a lot like AA mage, vAS, etc.

    Second, this thread seems to prefer nb archers than Warden ones (different from most threads). I def agree; however, has anyone compared the dps difference between a strict and less strict rotations? I've seen the 47k dummy nb vid and around 39k dummy Warden vids (alcast). It seems that the nb archer's rotation is wayy harder and requires stricter animation canceling and weaving, not to mention potion use is required here (major brutality/savagery).

    Basically, if I want a build that has a less strict rotation (like weaving but light ani canceling) and not have to use a bunch of pots per fight, should I not bother with a nb archer and go to Warden, or would a nb archer still do the trick? (Note only these two classes are under my consideration)

    From totally non serious vet trial experience, being in range indeed makes AA mage or vAS much more survivable. I even have some very casual experience being the kiter, dont have experience as mag DD to compare it to that, but it felt pretty easy with the high range bow builds have and a lot of stamina to dodge. Generally most mechanics that arent about stacking in one spot or being under fire from constant AoEs (like HoF) make archers more survivable than melee parts from own experience. Basically anytime you fight and dont feel like you need blade cloak :D
    Definitely not anywhere close to any magicka DD with actual shields on top tho.

    NB archers were and always will be much better DPS wise than any other buils. Thats simple fact of the class power and access to some powerful abilities (leeching and relentless). I dont know what you mean under strict and not strict rotation. If you arent doing proper weaving you are already playing bow kinda wrong. Animation canceling kinda comes with that, but if you somehow avoided animation canceling you would still get more DPS on NB than warden. As for potions, having Major Brutality is big deal so if for some reason you arent willing to drink potions for that then yes, playing class that gets Brutality from own sources would be better.

    So if you aim is to get something easy and cheap Warden is very good choice definitely. Sorc would be another one.



    Edited by SodanTok on June 3, 2018 12:16AM
    PC | EU | AD
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    @RT_Frank

    Glad you posted here ;).

    IMO Sorcerer is the easiest class.

    I posted in your thread and will add here why Nightblade has the highest damage (to continue OP's response):
    1) In execute phase if you can get into melee range, Killer's Blade does insane damage.
    2) Slot Soul Harvest in front bar and Dawnbreaker (choose morph you prefer) on back bar for trash fights. This is stupidly broken combo, and no other class can match it. You generate so much Ulti that you can use 2 or 3 times Dawnbreaker in trash fights in veteran dungeons. You can practice around Spellscar and see how much broken is.
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • RT_Frank
    RT_Frank
    ✭✭✭
    SodanTok wrote: »
    RT_Frank wrote: »
    I have been following this post recently in the hopes of making an endgame archer and I have some questions.

    First, has anyone tested how much more survivable archers are compared to their melee counterparts? I'm specifically mentioning survivability on fights where stam usually dies a lot like AA mage, vAS, etc.

    Second, this thread seems to prefer nb archers than Warden ones (different from most threads). I def agree; however, has anyone compared the dps difference between a strict and less strict rotations? I've seen the 47k dummy nb vid and around 39k dummy Warden vids (alcast). It seems that the nb archer's rotation is wayy harder and requires stricter animation canceling and weaving, not to mention potion use is required here (major brutality/savagery).

    Basically, if I want a build that has a less strict rotation (like weaving but light ani canceling) and not have to use a bunch of pots per fight, should I not bother with a nb archer and go to Warden, or would a nb archer still do the trick? (Note only these two classes are under my consideration)

    From totally non serious vet trial experience, being in range indeed makes AA mage or vAS much more survivable. I even have some very casual experience being the kiter, dont have experience as mag DD to compare it to that, but it felt pretty easy with the high range bow builds have and a lot of stamina to dodge. Generally most mechanics that arent about stacking in one spot or being under fire from constant AoEs (like HoF) make archers more survivable than melee parts from own experience. Basically anytime you fight and dont feel like you need blade cloak :D
    Definitely not anywhere close to any magicka DD with actual shields on top tho.

    NB archers were and always will be much better DPS wise than any other buils. Thats simple fact of the class power and access to some powerful abilities (leeching and relentless). I dont know what you mean under strict and not strict rotation. If you arent doing proper weaving you are already playing bow kinda wrong. Animation canceling kinda comes with that, but if you somehow avoided animation canceling you would still get more DPS on NB than warden. As for potions, having Major Brutality is big deal so if for some reason you arent willing to drink potions for that then yes, playing class that gets Brutality from own sources would be better.

    So if you aim is to get something easy and cheap Warden is very good choice definitely. Sorc would be another one.


    exiars10 wrote: »
    @RT_Frank

    Glad you posted here ;).

    IMO Sorcerer is the easiest class.

    I posted in your thread and will add here why Nightblade has the highest damage (to continue OP's response):
    1) In execute phase if you can get into melee range, Killer's Blade does insane damage.
    2) Slot Soul Harvest in front bar and Dawnbreaker (choose morph you prefer) on back bar for trash fights. This is stupidly broken combo, and no other class can match it. You generate so much Ulti that you can use 2 or 3 times Dawnbreaker in trash fights in veteran dungeons. You can practice around Spellscar and see how much broken is.

    Thanks for the input! I will go nb archer then! I guess by non-strict rotation I meant one that uses weaving but light ani canceling (mostly just wep swap cancel) because, for me, ani canceling is too wonky on console. But if a light rotation still does great dps on nb then that's great news to me!

    Also, is it better to go 5 relequen, 5 briarheart/acuity and a master and vma bow? Or is it better to replace the master bow with a monster set?
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    Wait, so bis ults are soul harvest front and dawnbreaker back?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    RT_Frank wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    RT_Frank wrote: »
    I have been following this post recently in the hopes of making an endgame archer and I have some questions.

    First, has anyone tested how much more survivable archers are compared to their melee counterparts? I'm specifically mentioning survivability on fights where stam usually dies a lot like AA mage, vAS, etc.

    Second, this thread seems to prefer nb archers than Warden ones (different from most threads). I def agree; however, has anyone compared the dps difference between a strict and less strict rotations? I've seen the 47k dummy nb vid and around 39k dummy Warden vids (alcast). It seems that the nb archer's rotation is wayy harder and requires stricter animation canceling and weaving, not to mention potion use is required here (major brutality/savagery).

    Basically, if I want a build that has a less strict rotation (like weaving but light ani canceling) and not have to use a bunch of pots per fight, should I not bother with a nb archer and go to Warden, or would a nb archer still do the trick? (Note only these two classes are under my consideration)

    From totally non serious vet trial experience, being in range indeed makes AA mage or vAS much more survivable. I even have some very casual experience being the kiter, dont have experience as mag DD to compare it to that, but it felt pretty easy with the high range bow builds have and a lot of stamina to dodge. Generally most mechanics that arent about stacking in one spot or being under fire from constant AoEs (like HoF) make archers more survivable than melee parts from own experience. Basically anytime you fight and dont feel like you need blade cloak :D
    Definitely not anywhere close to any magicka DD with actual shields on top tho.

    NB archers were and always will be much better DPS wise than any other buils. Thats simple fact of the class power and access to some powerful abilities (leeching and relentless). I dont know what you mean under strict and not strict rotation. If you arent doing proper weaving you are already playing bow kinda wrong. Animation canceling kinda comes with that, but if you somehow avoided animation canceling you would still get more DPS on NB than warden. As for potions, having Major Brutality is big deal so if for some reason you arent willing to drink potions for that then yes, playing class that gets Brutality from own sources would be better.

    So if you aim is to get something easy and cheap Warden is very good choice definitely. Sorc would be another one.


    exiars10 wrote: »
    @RT_Frank

    Glad you posted here ;).

    IMO Sorcerer is the easiest class.

    I posted in your thread and will add here why Nightblade has the highest damage (to continue OP's response):
    1) In execute phase if you can get into melee range, Killer's Blade does insane damage.
    2) Slot Soul Harvest in front bar and Dawnbreaker (choose morph you prefer) on back bar for trash fights. This is stupidly broken combo, and no other class can match it. You generate so much Ulti that you can use 2 or 3 times Dawnbreaker in trash fights in veteran dungeons. You can practice around Spellscar and see how much broken is.

    Thanks for the input! I will go nb archer then! I guess by non-strict rotation I meant one that uses weaving but light ani canceling (mostly just wep swap cancel) because, for me, ani canceling is too wonky on console. But if a light rotation still does great dps on nb then that's great news to me!

    Also, is it better to go 5 relequen, 5 briarheart/acuity and a master and vma bow? Or is it better to replace the master bow with a monster set?

    In my opinion and even personal testing, having monster set is simply better than master bow.

    Animation canceling is canceling animation of light attacks with skill casts. It is literally impossible not to learn it eventually just by practicing light attack weaving.
    And dont use Acuity on bow, ever.
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Wait, so bis ults are soul harvest front and dawnbreaker back?

    Thats just if you enjoy killing large packs of monsters (like doing skyreach), in no way is that combination good to actually have high DPS
    PC | EU | AD
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Wait, so bis ults are soul harvest front and dawnbreaker back?
    The main problem is most (?) players think BiS exists. It exists only in certain situation. This applies both to abilities and gear. If you watch Gilliamtherogue videos, he said that many times. Do you play solo? In group? Is group optimized or just randoms?

    Look at Piercing Mark - pretty much must have ability when you play solo. Useless in static boss fights at tank applies Major Fracture it but if there are adds, and tank can't pierce all adds, suddenly Piercing Mark is great as long as you don't overpenetrate which in Summerset patch is almost impossible (no more NMG and Sunderflame).

    Or Killer's Blade - if you can get into melee range for execution, it does insane damage.

    Or Shadow Silk - not good skill for your DPS, but if there is stamina DD in your group (especially DK), suddenly it's very good and it would boosts group DPS as synergy has insane damage.

    Or Vigor? You get it ;).

    So, Soul Harvest + Dawnbreaker is fantastic in trash fights. Not only you much faster kill trash but you generate insane ulti numbers which allow you to switch to Dawnbreaker + Ballista for boss fights and have enough ulti numbers (because of Soul Harvest) to drop Ballista as soon as possible.
    RT_Frank wrote: »
    Also, is it better to go 5 relequen, 5 briarheart/acuity and a master and vma bow? Or is it better to replace the master bow with a monster set?
    As OP typed Mechanical Acuity was never good on archer. Even more, MA is not BiS any more for classical stamina combo, and even the previous patch, Gilliam trashed it for good reasons.

    Arms of Relequen is:
    1) parsing skeleton set and
    2) for low mobility single boss fights.

    For trash and a lot of moving boss fights or bosses with a lot of ads it's obviously bad. Unless you want to constantly switch gear I would avoid it. On PC we have add-on to quickly change gear and abilities on the fly but on consoles...

    Also, all the best sets are mostly very close and offer something best depending on situation. Make combo you prefer and tailor your needs:
    1) Vicious Ophidian (for sustain),
    2) Twice-Fanged Serpent or Spriggan's Thorn (as solid TFS alternative for penetration),
    3) Briarheart or Hunding's Rage.

    Be aware what OP posted:
    But having VO or Hunding on weapons make you lose least amount of stats (compared to other primary sets) and most importantly not lose any stacked buffs (like TFS or Relequen would).
    Important if you have vMA bow.
    Edited by exiars10 on June 4, 2018 9:41AM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    @SodanTok

    First sorry for the wall of text...

    I like how you updated and tailored opening/main post. And Bosmer girls for cuteness and RP BiS, ha ha.

    Race talk
    Now seriously, there are so many threads about buff this/that race and Bosmer is completely ignored. Probably because Bosmer players play them as we like them and are not into min/max. Some players shamelessly are trying to push idea to buff Khajiit, and yet they are the 2nd best stamina race.

    I can bet that stamina Dunmer DPS is very close to Bosmer one but nobody did testing as they are „magicka“ race. Also Nord should be very close, too. They all have the same max 6% stamina just Bosmer has almost useless stamina recovery. If you have time try testing Dunmer and Nord and I can bet they are close to Bosmer. Or maybe you did it, but are not worth...

    I plan to open a thread about Bosmer racial passives as stamina recovery is big on paper and in reality it is just sad. Bosmer are the best archers in Tamriel, so my suggestion would be instead of useless stamina recovery:
    When you deal damage with a ranged attack, you restore 792 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds.
    Just like Redguard‘s Adrenaline Rush but ranged attack. What you think?

    I have a suggestion – for some reason you deleted Spriggan‘s Thorn from recommended sets. Even Gilliam recommends it as descent alternative for TFS. Obviously it‘s not for min/max but is good enough, can be bought outright in guild stores and is obviously easier to grind it than TFS.

    Last week I finally finished Psijic Order quest line for it‘s abilities and story – it‘s very tedious and boring…

    Gilliam talked about bow and Crushing Weapon from 16.50 to 19.24.
    I guess you watched it but anyway.


    My findings/testing are similar to his – Lethal Arrow > Crushing Weapon. I am suprised how he commended LA as a good bow spammable :).

    I absolutely agree with you about Channeled Acceleration (for those who have Summerset). This is really game changer ability for archer builds (like for magicka, too). Trap is history unless you don‘t have Summerset. And then, there is a bonus – there are places where you have to block, and free 5k damage shield is nice addition for stamina players who lack shields (there is simply no place on bars for Bone Shield if you are DD). Did I mention Major Expedition, too?
    TL; DR
    Channeled Acceleration not only gives Minor Force for a very long duration, you gain Major Expedition for 9 sec (situationally very useful), and above that 5k damage shield which is recharged by itself.

    I did several parses on 3M skeleton using Leeching Strikes, and yes, there is noticable difference in sustain. How I completely forgot that ability is beyond me...

    In Gilliam's video - TESO: Stamina DPS Changes for Summerset, he confirmed what I know in my case (and I typed about it) – use infused stamina recovery or reduction glyph. It really helps with sustain.


    He also talked about infused vs robust and infused is really a tiny better. So unless you are into total min/max and have resources to retrait (jewelry is a very costly bussiness)…

    And you know how I like reddit and bow threads :). Here we go again, two threads from yesterday, but first something serious:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8o9e43/bows/
    That being said I think lethal injection(your highest damaging spammable) is getting a nerf soon.
    Lethal Injection? What? I guess Lethal Arrow…
    Did you hear/read anything about LA getting a nerf soon?

    And obligatory „only Warden archer“ post…
    However, Wardens actually can do well with a dual bow setup. At least well enough for all the solo content and most (maybe all) group content.

    And classical archer thread and the most (+15) upvoted post :
    https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/8oefah/everyone_says_archer_builds_stink_but_i_am_having/
    Endgame pure archers are significantly weaker than other DPS setups. But the only one that can be passable is warden, note that you have to get hardcore endgame gear and work really hard to be passable, whereas other setups can use easy to obtain gear, a basic setup and do significantly better. But this is all talking in a hardcore endgame competitive sense, and so is what you've read an heard. For casual dungeons, solo and questing, its completely fine and you'll be able to complete all casual content.
    Archer = only Warden for casual content.
    Those reddit posters are so out of touch on so many levels and that post has so much BS I don‘t even know where to start…

    P. S.
    Those 7x Russian archers finishing casual content like vAS+1.
    Edited by exiars10 on June 4, 2018 1:29PM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    @exiars10
    Yes, too much text to address everything :D

    The only advantage bosmer has over other 6% stam races is recovery. If you can do parse with none or very few heavy attacks you wont notice any difference in them. But obviously you would pick bosmer for the recovery over their other passives.

    But bosmer are fine with the recovery in PVP side. I dont think their flavor (most regen race) should ever change. More like they should get more damage (with bows, ranged skills, or just overall)

    Spriggan is fine set, but really no point to use it. Basically in my opinion you either get TFS or you pick Lover mundus. In both situations there is no place for spriggan.

    Infued/Robust difference is very minimal sure, but its slightly less minimal on khajiit than for example redguard. Its slightly less minimal on 7/0 or 6/1 gear than 5/2/2 and stuff. So I would always jump for Infused when given chance and chances are here, its maybe soon still, but in few weeks infused rings for research will be cheap and transmuting jewelry is just 50 crystals.

    There is no nerf coming to Lethal Arrow. Nobody knows what ZoS is doing.
    And yes, its common knowledge Snipe is best spammable if you are allowed to use it. But DPS difference between crushing and snipe on nightblade is very minimal.

    As for people, they know little and there is very little information. Not to be negative towards people like Alcast, but they know very little and dont really try to know more about bow/bow so they jump at the first thing they think is good and other people dont even try to think about it.
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    SodanTok wrote: »
    @exiars10
    Yes, too much text to address everything :D

    The only advantage bosmer has over other 6% stam races is recovery. If you can do parse with none or very few heavy attacks you wont notice any difference in them. But obviously you would pick bosmer for the recovery over their other passives.

    But bosmer are fine with the recovery in PVP side. I dont think their flavor (most regen race) should ever change. More like they should get more damage (with bows, ranged skills, or just overall)

    Spriggan is fine set, but really no point to use it. Basically in my opinion you either get TFS or you pick Lover mundus. In both situations there is no place for spriggan.

    Infued/Robust difference is very minimal sure, but its slightly less minimal on khajiit than for example redguard. Its slightly less minimal on 7/0 or 6/1 gear than 5/2/2 and stuff. So I would always jump for Infused when given chance and chances are here, its maybe soon still, but in few weeks infused rings for research will be cheap and transmuting jewelry is just 50 crystals.

    There is no nerf coming to Lethal Arrow. Nobody knows what ZoS is doing.
    And yes, its common knowledge Snipe is best spammable if you are allowed to use it. But DPS difference between crushing and snipe on nightblade is very minimal.

    As for people, they know little and there is very little information. Not to be negative towards people like Alcast, but they know very little and dont really try to know more about bow/bow so they jump at the first thing they think is good and other people dont even try to think about it.

    I saw yaagar using bow/lightning staff for bow sorc, I wonder having destro ult, and more light attack damage off sets the disadvantages of using a staff instead of a bow
  • exiars10
    exiars10
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I saw yaagar using bow/lightning staff for bow sorc, I wonder having destro ult, and more light attack damage off sets the disadvantages of using a staff instead of a bow
    Yaagrr is probably the most famous archer builder and highly compentent and skilled DD and healer archer player who upload on YT.
    In that trial run, he was hybrid DD as you can see + 7 pure archers. He used Lightning Staff as they needed off balance which you know. They probably concluded that it's best to have one DD for it.
    What I like about that Russian guild is how they use a lot of Shadow Silk and they showed so many times how that ability is super strong... in proper condition.
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    @exiars10
    Yes, too much text to address everything :D

    The only advantage bosmer has over other 6% stam races is recovery. If you can do parse with none or very few heavy attacks you wont notice any difference in them. But obviously you would pick bosmer for the recovery over their other passives.

    But bosmer are fine with the recovery in PVP side. I dont think their flavor (most regen race) should ever change. More like they should get more damage (with bows, ranged skills, or just overall)

    Spriggan is fine set, but really no point to use it. Basically in my opinion you either get TFS or you pick Lover mundus. In both situations there is no place for spriggan.

    Infued/Robust difference is very minimal sure, but its slightly less minimal on khajiit than for example redguard. Its slightly less minimal on 7/0 or 6/1 gear than 5/2/2 and stuff. So I would always jump for Infused when given chance and chances are here, its maybe soon still, but in few weeks infused rings for research will be cheap and transmuting jewelry is just 50 crystals.

    There is no nerf coming to Lethal Arrow. Nobody knows what ZoS is doing.
    And yes, its common knowledge Snipe is best spammable if you are allowed to use it. But DPS difference between crushing and snipe on nightblade is very minimal.

    As for people, they know little and there is very little information. Not to be negative towards people like Alcast, but they know very little and dont really try to know more about bow/bow so they jump at the first thing they think is good and other people dont even try to think about it.

    I saw yaagar using bow/lightning staff for bow sorc, I wonder having destro ult, and more light attack damage off sets the disadvantages of using a staff instead of a bow

    Its when you need to run all archer group for sake of having all archer group. Having normal archer over that is better and having normal sorc (or anyone with lightning staff blockade) more so.

    Not that it is totally awful, its just pointless. On stamsorc you can run most of your abilities in front bar and your backbar could be empty and the DPS would still be hm lets say... ok. You are not gonna lose 10k dps (from 40k to 30k) by losing 1 or 2 stamina light attacks every rotation, wasting one cast on some low dps magicka aoe and losing set piece on front (because of need to slot vma bow there).
    PC | EU | AD
  • exiars10
    exiars10
    ✭✭✭
    @SodanTok

    Yea, Alcast is not a problem. In every video he says "it's (just) suggestion" but lemmings take it everything for granted.
    I partly watched his stream last several days and the last evening he gained huge respect from me for everything he said (I typed in his thread about it). He even said that Gilliam should get a job at ZOS (if he even wanted) to help them as he knows so much. Other day he said he has too many builds to update and don't have time to add more as people bothered him to post WW PvE build. Imagine if he didn't even post Warden archer build?
    I played Dota 2 a lot in the past (still my most played game by far) and it goes similar - somebody finds some OP build, but majority laughs until some popular streamer/pro player pick it up and suddenly everybody runs it. If Hodor did vAS+1 with 7 archers like those Russians you can bet what would happen next...

    Anyway, since we talked about jewelry crafting and transmutating, I found set worth transmutating.

    This is my proposed full poison DK build (I simply didn't have to play it alongside NB, Warden and Sorcerer, so I just train mount every day):
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=66376

    Ignore CP distrubution, it's all about gear setup :).
    I am huge fan of Armor of the Veiled Heritance.
    https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor+of+the+Veiled+Heritance+Set
    My post about it for probable use on my DK tank from 20th April:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5093786/#Comment_5093786

    I have a lot of purple jewelry and even bows. Now, here comes jewelry transmutation! I have a lot of TCs, and I have researched Infused trait for rings :).

    Hunding's Rage:
    2 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    3 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
    4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    5 items: Adds 3-299 Weapon Damage

    Armor of the Veiled Heritance:
    2 items: Adds 1-129 Weapon Damage
    3 items: Adds 34-2975 Physical Resistance
    4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    5 items: When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to increase your Weapon Damage by 4-400 for 5 seconds.

    With so many DoTs (6 from 7 damage abilities are DoTs!), 5th bonus has 100% uptime.

    229 WD >> 1.096 stamina and 833 weapon critical / Right?
    Plus I would transmutate two Healthy rings to Infused.

    I think this set is BiS for archers as long as you can transmutate rings (you need healthy necklace for health anyway) at least for us who don't have vMA bow as I don't know how 5th bonus interact when bars are swapped (does it lose or not 5th bonus).
    Edited by exiars10 on June 5, 2018 10:18AM
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    exiars10 wrote: »
    @SodanTok

    Yea, Alcast is not a problem. In every video he says "it's (just) suggestion" but lemmings take it everything for granted.
    I partly watched his stream last several days and the last evening he gained huge respect from me for everything he said (I typed in his thread about it). He even said that Gilliam should get a job at ZOS (if he even wanted) to help them as he knows so much. Other day he said he has too many builds to update and don't have time to add more as people bothered him to post WW PvE build. Imagine if he didn't even post Warden archer build?
    I played Dota 2 a lot in the past (still my most played game by far) and it goes similar - somebody finds some OP build, but majority laughs until some popular streamer/pro player pick it up and suddenly everybody runs it. If Hodor did vAS+1 with 7 archers like those Russians you can bet what would happen next...

    Anyway, since we talked about jewelry crafting and transmutating, I found set worth transmutating.

    This is my proposed full poison DK build (I simply didn't have to play it alongside NB, Warden and Sorcerer, so I just train mount every day):
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=66376

    Ignore CP distrubution, it's all about gear setup :).
    I am huge fan of Armor of the Veiled Heritance.
    https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Armor+of+the+Veiled+Heritance+Set
    My post about it for probable use on my DK tank from 20th April:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5093786/#Comment_5093786

    I have a lot of purple jewelry and even bows. Now, here comes jewelry transmutation! I have a lot of TCs, and I have researched Infused trait for rings :).

    Hunding's Rage:
    2 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    3 items: Adds 12-1096 Maximum Stamina
    4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    5 items: Adds 3-299 Weapon Damage

    Armor of the Veiled Heritance:
    2 items: Adds 1-129 Weapon Damage
    3 items: Adds 34-2975 Physical Resistance
    4 items: Adds 9-833 Weapon Critical
    5 items: When you deal damage, you have a 10% chance to increase your Weapon Damage by 4-400 for 5 seconds.

    With so many DoTs (6 from 7 damage abilities are DoTs!), 5th bonus has 100% uptime.

    229 WD >> 1.096 stamina and 833 weapon critical / Right?
    Plus I would transmutate two Healthy rings to Infused.

    I think this set is BiS for archers as long as you can transmutate rings (you need healthy necklace for health anyway) at least for us who don't have vMA bow as I don't know how 5th bonus interact when bars are swapped (does it lose or not 5th bonus).

    Careful with throwing BiS around. I havent tried Heritance to see how the proc behaves but even if it was guaranteed 100% uptime, it would at best just be slightly better than Hunding and Hunding was nowhere near BiS. There are other aspects to consider, like Briarheart average weapon damage is just what hunding has, but it can only proc on frontbar and carries to backbar so it allows for windows for burst and windows for utility (like heavy attacks).

    As for DK poison build, yeah that is pretty standard way (mephala, tong, damage set, all poison abilities you can find and endless hail). Its fine for the ehm 'roleplay' but using mephala is just awful and its not really that good either even with morag tong and dk passives.
    PC | EU | AD
  • exiars10
    exiars10
    ✭✭✭
    ^^^^^^
    I am aware Mephala is not worth it - I decided to go with Sellistrix again.

    For Sorcerer archers, Yaagrr posted build 4 beginners.



    TL; DW
    He used Hawk's Eye set.
    He maxed stamina as much as possible because of Bound Armaments.
    Dark Deal for stamina sustain (plus healing) ---> really interesting.
    He used Race Againts Time for Minor Force.
    38k DPS as Relequen inflate like for every other stamina build...
    I don't play ESO since 15.06. because Cyrodiil is broken since Summerset (PvE isn't much better, too)...

    Aldmeri Dominion (PC Europe via Steam)

    The cowardly Wood Elves are best noted for their unwillingness to engage in a face-to-face attack; a Bosmer will strike at you from every side except the front. You won't cross swords with a Bosmer, but you might catch an arrow in the throat. Be wary in forests and jungles, and watch your back.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    exiars10 wrote: »
    ^^^^^^
    I am aware Mephala is not worth it - I decided to go with Sellistrix again.

    For Sorcerer archers, Yaagrr posted build 4 beginners.



    TL; DW
    He used Hawk's Eye set.
    He maxed stamina as much as possible because of Bound Armaments.
    Dark Deal for stamina sustain (plus healing) ---> really interesting.
    He used Race Againts Time for Minor Force.
    38k DPS as Relequen inflate like for every other stamina build...

    Any good sets + raleq will make nice DPS. I can see hawk eye as mediocare dmg set that also gives sustain (something beginner would struggle with). I can see dark deal being used because it is almost worth it using it even in normal rotation on dummy (with some dps loss) and trial mechanics allow for many breaks in rotation to use it.

    Stacking stamina with bosmer or redguard and bound armor is ineffective damage wise, but it also improves sustain (by starting with more stamina) so In small way useful, would still not recommend it even to beginners.
    And Race Against Time doesnt make sense at all. Channeled Acc costs 2 skill casts and last 3 rotations plus you can prebuff yourself when mechanics give you break. The instant morph is 1 cast every rotation, trippling amount of magicka spent (goes against the use of dark deal), wasting 1 skill cast (DPS ineffective) and prebuff value is ineffective too since it lasts short time.
    PC | EU | AD
  • ArchMikem
    ArchMikem
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    After having a Stamblade main that sucks so hard at end game PvE, i think ill try giving up the daggers for a bow build and see how it handles. Especially now that 2handers count as 2 set pieces.
    CP1,000+ Master Explorer - AvA Tribune - Console Peasant
  • Jowrik
    Jowrik
    ✭✭✭
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    After having a Stamblade main that sucks so hard at end game PvE, i think ill try giving up the daggers for a bow build and see how it handles. Especially now that 2handers count as 2 set pieces.
    Do it, you can do vTrials with 48k DPS :)
    Nightblade - Khajiit - Rha'Viir
    PC - EU - Aldmeri Dominion
  • SirDopey
    SirDopey
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Probably a dumb question - but if you had a Stamsorc bow bow build and instead of having a second bow on the backbar placed a VMA staff there with wall of elements, will the light attacks on the front bar + bound armaments lead to a noticeable enough increase in DPS to consider trying it?
    NA PC | AD
    xx Doc Holliday xx
  • Gorilla
    Gorilla
    ✭✭✭
    What would be a good PVP bow/bow NB build?
    Gamer info: Soldras / NA / PS4 / CP 7XX / Many alts / PVP focus
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    Probably a dumb question - but if you had a Stamsorc bow bow build and instead of having a second bow on the backbar placed a VMA staff there with wall of elements, will the light attacks on the front bar + bound armaments lead to a noticeable enough increase in DPS to consider trying it?

    It is enough DPS to consider trying it but ultimately it wouldnt be that worth it. More like something doable and different than really top possible DPS. So feel free to try it if you are up to it and show your results, I cant promise I will check it.



    Gorilla wrote: »
    What would be a good PVP bow/bow NB build?

    The only one I ever played an agreed with and from the only person I know to actually be good at it
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/420393/sniper-stamina-nightblade-pvp-build-bow-bow-summerset
    PC | EU | AD
  • Khumbu
    Khumbu
    ✭✭✭
    First of all, I want to thank you for this incredible thread. So much good information for what is arguably the most fun playstyle.

    Is NB definitely better than Warden now for bow/bow max dps, even besides single target? Willing to reroll from stamden if that's the case. I have all (pre Summerset) gear but VMA weapons, was running VO/NMG.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Khumbu wrote: »
    First of all, I want to thank you for this incredible thread. So much good information for what is arguably the most fun playstyle.

    Is NB definitely better than Warden now for bow/bow max dps, even besides single target? Willing to reroll from stamden if that's the case. I have all (pre Summerset) gear but VMA weapons, was running VO/NMG.

    NB always was definitely better at bow than others. Warden was just easier (and still is). Wouldnt reroll really if you dont know what are you getting to.
    As for if its just single target, well warden in some sense would have more aoe dps by having one skill aoe (sub assault) with major fracture to buff group. But thats small difference.
    PC | EU | AD
  • Sunday_Samurai
    Any other obscure ways to proc Redguard's Adrenaline Rush? I read Poison Enchantments and Relenquen procs it. Does it mean it also procs the Imperial's equivalent?

    What about Orc and Nord?

    Also please write about Templar and DK soon. I'd like to start a Templar but donno where to start.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any other obscure ways to proc Redguard's Adrenaline Rush? I read Poison Enchantments and Relenquen procs it. Does it mean it also procs the Imperial's equivalent?

    What about Orc and Nord?

    Also please write about Templar and DK soon. I'd like to start a Templar but donno where to start.

    So far the only ways to proc it that I am aware of is Relenquen, Poison/Disease enchant and Velidreth I think it should mean these proc any melee damage (like selene) but havent bothered to test those.

    As for templar or DK I am hoping to get to play templar more closely next patch and there is good build on http://fearturbo.com/
    And for DK I have very limited experience with DK and I am not overly interested in getting more (i feel the class too melee to my liking). Tho if you have very DK archer specific questions you could probably ask Toc de Malsvi if he doesnt mind

    PC | EU | AD
  • Bladerunner1
    Bladerunner1
    ✭✭✭✭
    On the PTS endless hail is proccing enchantments from the back bar while swapped to the front bar. Any predictions of how that would change optimal bow/bow builds?

    Last night I tinkered with torugs on a mage and an archer on the PTS. It seems like torugs allows enchantments to proc faster than every two seconds, and endless hail was proccing the back bar enchantment every 3 ticks, or 1.5 seconds. On the front bar I've been using snipe as a spammable, and the slower spam speed of snipe allows a front enchantment to go off with every snipe, maybe every 1.3 seconds. It was a fun experiment with torugs but it didn't seem like a replacement set for what I already have since there aren't any useful stats. I ran into a plateau with it, where just spamming snipe and keeping up endless hail is almost the same DPS as going through a whole rotation. The combined enchantment DPS went as high as 9000 if all I did was alternate between endless hail from the back bar and snipe spam on the front, but it drops off while mixing in other skills.
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    On the PTS endless hail is proccing enchantments from the back bar while swapped to the front bar. Any predictions of how that would change optimal bow/bow builds?

    Last night I tinkered with torugs on a mage and an archer on the PTS. It seems like torugs allows enchantments to proc faster than every two seconds, and endless hail was proccing the back bar enchantment every 3 ticks, or 1.5 seconds. On the front bar I've been using snipe as a spammable, and the slower spam speed of snipe allows a front enchantment to go off with every snipe, maybe every 1.3 seconds. It was a fun experiment with torugs but it didn't seem like a replacement set for what I already have since there aren't any useful stats. I ran into a plateau with it, where just spamming snipe and keeping up endless hail is almost the same DPS as going through a whole rotation. The combined enchantment DPS went as high as 9000 if all I did was alternate between endless hail from the back bar and snipe spam on the front, but it drops off while mixing in other skills.

    Predictions? Based on simply what I think should be best since I had limited time to test (and when I had time bows didnt work for 2 or 3 weeks on PTS) its pretty simple. There was always minimal DPS difference between having Infused WD, Infused Poison or Nirn Poison (or even precise Poison). We needed Infused Poison mainly for the sustain it gives on redguard (proccing adrenaline rush every 6s). So all what changes is than we dont have to choose anymore. Infused Poison on back and Infused Weapon damage on front (in future testing I would maybe even play with Nirnhoned/Precise absorb stam on front)
    PC | EU | AD
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any news on pts for bow builds?
  • SodanTok
    SodanTok
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    Any news on pts for bow builds?

    Funnily enough with such big changes nothing really changed regarding what to do and what to use. At least it seems for now.
    If you play warden or templar or DK you got some new sustain tools to play with so you will do more dmg by light attacking more. At any point if you feel you need more sustain (which should be pretty much always on non redguards) you put on absorb stam enchantment instead of poison.

    I think thats about it. Pretty much better sustain on any bow build now which means more damage but I suspect gap between DW/bow and bow/bow is increased because they got 3 enchantments...

    New bow very much PVP focused (not even good there tho). No new set that would somewhat offer DPS at least at first sight so kinda nothing new while a lot of new

    //edit:
    The only thing that I dont believe will be impactful but I might be wrong is that now we can use infused berserker backbar (will be procced by endless hail) and maybe get some Precise or Nirn on front with poison/absorb enchant.
    Edited by SodanTok on September 19, 2018 5:07PM
    PC | EU | AD
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