Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Updated for Stonethorn

SodanTok

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Once I heard (*edit* from another thread, not this one) that you wouldn't want to place a poison glyph on the back bar bow because it procs on the target closest to you rather than the boss. I tested this on target dummies with different names and found that it simply isn't the case, it hits the target closest to the center of your endless hail, much like the crusher glyph as someone else pointed out on another thread.

Placing the poison glyph on the back bar adds a lot of poison status damage as well since poison would proc every two seconds. Lately I've been running poison glyph back bar and weapon damage glyph front on my Stamblade since it seems to put out better DPS.

I think the case of closest target is for blockade, but you still cant totally control whats by game considered in middle. Not that it matters that much imo. Having it on backbar means it procs constantly while weapon damage can proc and be active on backbar. Plus next patch half the melee stamDDs will put absorb enchant on back anyway since they need the full effect of it

SodanTok

Since there have been some misconceptions recently about Long Shots and many questions in past, I decided to make this quick visual guide about the passive.

Main things to note about Long Shots:

• It affects only bow abilities (including light attacks)
• It is additive with all other % bonuses, notably CP (and others like Hawk Eye, Minor Berserk, ...).

That means for example on build with 10% (mighty), 18% (thaumaturge), 8% (minor berserk), 25% (hawk eye) going from 0m range to 23m range (12% long shots) will increase damage of your volley by 7.5% and not 12%.



The distances in picture are measured by the last position each skill with reported distance could be used. I dont know and cant bother to check if 5m skills can be casted up to 5.99m or 5.49m or 4.99m. The red lines are the last position before long shot buff gets increased by 2%.

dougd82ub17_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

In case someone was reading new racial balances and is interested to know what it means for bow (at least from my opinion)

• Damage - Khajiit > Dark Elf > Orc > Redguard >= Bosmer
• Sustain on Snipe rotation - Redguard > Bosmer > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf
• Sustain on Cutting Dive/Crushing weapon rotation - Bosmer > Redguard > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf

Various builds will benefit from each race differently, thats how close they will be. Something like stamsorc that spends most of rotation just using spammable (optimally snipe) will benefit greatly from redguard while warden that can do something more engaging with cutting dive/sub assault benefit slightly more from bosmer sustain.

It also means classes that already have solid sustain (to a point of sustaining 3M parse with bistat food) can look for something with only small sustain but bigger damage (orc, khajiit). In other situations races like bosmer/redguard will allow to do it on other classes or when lacking DPS (or just to feel better in groups with less occurring shards/orbs). Then there is the khajiit that got stat bonus to stamina/health (and well magicka) meaning dubious just got even more efficient (you probably wont have to put much to health now).
With some testing there probably be a superior choice, but currently it looks like the choices will be meaningful in different way (what you prefer more) and only insignificantly in damage output

I notice you dont mention Imperial anywhere in this post. After recent rebalancing are they no longer an advised race for a bow/bow build? Would you now put bosmer over imperial for a warden build due to their added sustain benefit?

SodanTok

dougd82ub17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

In case someone was reading new racial balances and is interested to know what it means for bow (at least from my opinion)

• Damage - Khajiit > Dark Elf > Orc > Redguard >= Bosmer
• Sustain on Snipe rotation - Redguard > Bosmer > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf
• Sustain on Cutting Dive/Crushing weapon rotation - Bosmer > Redguard > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf

Various builds will benefit from each race differently, thats how close they will be. Something like stamsorc that spends most of rotation just using spammable (optimally snipe) will benefit greatly from redguard while warden that can do something more engaging with cutting dive/sub assault benefit slightly more from bosmer sustain.

It also means classes that already have solid sustain (to a point of sustaining 3M parse with bistat food) can look for something with only small sustain but bigger damage (orc, khajiit). In other situations races like bosmer/redguard will allow to do it on other classes or when lacking DPS (or just to feel better in groups with less occurring shards/orbs). Then there is the khajiit that got stat bonus to stamina/health (and well magicka) meaning dubious just got even more efficient (you probably wont have to put much to health now).
With some testing there probably be a superior choice, but currently it looks like the choices will be meaningful in different way (what you prefer more) and only insignificantly in damage output

I notice you dont mention Imperial anywhere in this post. After recent rebalancing are they no longer an advised race for a bow/bow build? Would you now put bosmer over imperial for a warden build due to their added sustain benefit?

That was post for first Iteration (where Imperials were absolutely horrible). I havent put too much thoughts into them yet, I will wait for final revision on Monday since races keep changing every week, some even doing full 180 (like khajiit which also basically dropped from one of best options to possibly one of worst on bow)

dougd82ub17_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

dougd82ub17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

In case someone was reading new racial balances and is interested to know what it means for bow (at least from my opinion)

• Damage - Khajiit > Dark Elf > Orc > Redguard >= Bosmer
• Sustain on Snipe rotation - Redguard > Bosmer > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf
• Sustain on Cutting Dive/Crushing weapon rotation - Bosmer > Redguard > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf

Various builds will benefit from each race differently, thats how close they will be. Something like stamsorc that spends most of rotation just using spammable (optimally snipe) will benefit greatly from redguard while warden that can do something more engaging with cutting dive/sub assault benefit slightly more from bosmer sustain.

It also means classes that already have solid sustain (to a point of sustaining 3M parse with bistat food) can look for something with only small sustain but bigger damage (orc, khajiit). In other situations races like bosmer/redguard will allow to do it on other classes or when lacking DPS (or just to feel better in groups with less occurring shards/orbs). Then there is the khajiit that got stat bonus to stamina/health (and well magicka) meaning dubious just got even more efficient (you probably wont have to put much to health now).
With some testing there probably be a superior choice, but currently it looks like the choices will be meaningful in different way (what you prefer more) and only insignificantly in damage output

I notice you dont mention Imperial anywhere in this post. After recent rebalancing are they no longer an advised race for a bow/bow build? Would you now put bosmer over imperial for a warden build due to their added sustain benefit?

That was post for first Iteration (where Imperials were absolutely horrible). I havent put too much thoughts into them yet, I will wait for final revision on Monday since races keep changing every week, some even doing full 180 (like khajiit which also basically dropped from one of best options to possibly one of worst on bow)

Thanks! I look forward to hearing what you have to say then. I dont know how many other people have said this to you, but thank you for all the hard work, input and insight into bow/bow builds that you have done.
Its been incredibly helpful and I just wanted to acknowledge your hard work.

Royaji

dougd82ub17_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

In case someone was reading new racial balances and is interested to know what it means for bow (at least from my opinion)

• Damage - Khajiit > Dark Elf > Orc > Redguard >= Bosmer
• Sustain on Snipe rotation - Redguard > Bosmer > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf
• Sustain on Cutting Dive/Crushing weapon rotation - Bosmer > Redguard > Orc > Khajiit > Dark Elf

Various builds will benefit from each race differently, thats how close they will be. Something like stamsorc that spends most of rotation just using spammable (optimally snipe) will benefit greatly from redguard while warden that can do something more engaging with cutting dive/sub assault benefit slightly more from bosmer sustain.

It also means classes that already have solid sustain (to a point of sustaining 3M parse with bistat food) can look for something with only small sustain but bigger damage (orc, khajiit). In other situations races like bosmer/redguard will allow to do it on other classes or when lacking DPS (or just to feel better in groups with less occurring shards/orbs). Then there is the khajiit that got stat bonus to stamina/health (and well magicka) meaning dubious just got even more efficient (you probably wont have to put much to health now).
With some testing there probably be a superior choice, but currently it looks like the choices will be meaningful in different way (what you prefer more) and only insignificantly in damage output

I notice you dont mention Imperial anywhere in this post. After recent rebalancing are they no longer an advised race for a bow/bow build? Would you now put bosmer over imperial for a warden build due to their added sustain benefit?

I've tried my Imperial warden on PTS and was pleasantely surprised. Sustain was better and one aspect of new Imperial that is very interesting is ability to use Lava Foot soup and bump your health up with health enchants. Works especially well on a warden since heal from Red Diamond will proc Minor Toughness to put you even closer to comfortable health levels. I was able to hit 17,5k with just two big health enchants and I can definitely see how a more dedicted DD player can get away with only using one.

I've noticed DPS increase compared to live with this setup although I have not done any extensive testing since ping on PTS makes rotations feel a lot clunkier than they should be.

SodanTok

So after spending more time on PTS than I would like and not getting any data I would be totally happy with, because I wanted more clean test environment with several parses per race to see what is truly the best, but the combination of high pings, glitches (getting stuck in hail cast animation every 3rd parse is very funny) and (good) fact races are so well balanced than all those other factors and my own mistakes matter more than race choice I reached this conclusion:

From choices of: Imperial, Dunmer, Redguard, Bosmer, Khajiit and Orc pick whatever you want. If you want the nitty details and pick the race that gives 100 more dps you probably chose the wrong weapon to front bar anyway
Objectively Orc is the best and Imperial the worst

Anyway, I obviously can say more than this. I measured races in somewhat less fair scenario than all those true PTS graphs and calculation threads you can find. In general, those are 99% applicable to bow builds too because there are very few differences. All races parsed in range of 45.5-47.5k. That doesnt mean that thats the value bow builds are reaching, just that my particular build and cp distribution on that particular class with that particular rotation was hitting those numbers.

My goal was to do self buffed parse on 6M dummy with rule to never have to use more than 4 heavy attacks (I chose that number because it represents +/- sustan gained from stormfist which would be optional but not game changing choice for more sutain). That means any race that couldnt handle this with blue food either got jewelry enchant or dubious camoran drink. On every race/build I sacrificed any stamina necessary (switching attribute points) to get at minimum 17k health. Its not proper testing and any minmaxer from endgame optimized raids would probably laugh in my face, but this is what I consider to be the good value of sustain/health/damage for average skilled person in average endgame content.

I wont make any tiered list, but will explain advantages/disadvantages of each race in random order:

• Bosmer - With blue food and 2-3 heavy attacks parses were mostly closer to the upper part of stated dps range. I use this race as the 'standard' for comparisons below
• Khajiit - With blue food and regen glyph they achieve same sustain as bosmer and similar damage parsing again at the upper part of dps range. Same with dubious and without heavy attacks. They dont stand out compared to bosmer and probably drop below on some low crit builds.
• Redguard - With blue food and 4 heavy attacks they parsed mostly to bottom part of dps range. Their sustain with the heavy attack limitation was barely enough (but dubious/regen glyph would be overkill). On rotation with heavier use of weapon skills and weapon spammables (snipe, acid spray, ...) they would parse equally with bosmer. One thing to note is cheaper ballista ultimate. On prolonged fights that could very much mean even several more casts over other races (which would result in very small DPS boost), 6M dummy parse was not enough to get any benefit from it.
• Dunmer - With dubious and 1-2 heavy attacks they parse very close to bosmer with insignificantly better sustain but insignificantly less damage. Personally the least interesting option of the pack (more reason below).
• Orc - with dubious and 1-2 heavy attacks they set maximum range of DPS and always parsed very close to it. They are objectively the best choice even if by very small margin. With dubious their sustain is better than of bosmer, but they are still hitting for more damage. Compared to dubious dunmer they basically had same sustain and more damage because they had to sacrifice very little of stam to get 17k health. In current form they are (by small but noticeable margin) better than any option. Something that has been obvious from all other PTS tests too.
• Imperial - They are the odd one from the rest. With dubious they already had more sustain that was needed, but very little (with lots of unnecessary health) with blue food. Their dubious parses set the minimum on the range and parses closely to the bottom. In their dubious version they simply have less damage than all the other options which they trade for sustain that wasnt needed for this test. They have option of using lava food at which point their damage and sustain would be nearly equal to bosmer with dubious.

Important note:
All parses were done on warden with sub assault/cutting dive rotation, 100 CP points in regen and heavy attack sustain and infused absorb stam enchant with the previously mentioned goal of self sustaining on 6M dummy. So anyone can conclude from this that if you are looking for less sustain than that, races that focus on damage will come ahead. Same goes if you are looking for less health than 17k. If you want more sustain than I had, races that offer sustain will come slightly ahead.

SodanTok

Since patch hits tomorrow it would be good time to mention some important changes that will one day be included in main post:

• Races - See above
• General changes - Shadow got huge buff that apparently makes it viable or even BiS in many scenarios over classic mag/stam builds. Cant say and probably will never be able to do such a test that would confirm which way to build is better (we still need penetration and tools to get it are limited), but if you are wearing penetration set like TFS it could be very option to switch to shadow over warrior (you were probably using)
• Gear - New Dungeon (frostvault) includes very important set for bow/bow builds - Tzogvin’s Warband. This set enables you to drop acceleration or trap from your bar and rotation and grants you critical chance on stacks (so it can be frontbarred). I havent got to test and compare this set to all other options and on all builds, but it outperforms sets like leviathan or war machine on warden (and from testings done ~5 months ago war machine on warden with bear was the best option). So tl;dr It is great if not best option for front bar set on bow and best source of Minor Force we can get.

Royaji

SodanTok wrote: »

General changes - Shadow got huge buff that apparently makes it viable or even BiS in many scenarios over classic mag/stam builds. Cant say and probably will never be able to do such a test that would confirm which way to build is better (we still need penetration and tools to get it are limited), but if you are wearing penetration set like TFS it could be very option to switch to shadow over warrior (you were probably using)

Are changes to shadow relevant for stam builds though? I'm having hard time believing that "Shadow/TFS" will outDPS "Lover/Relequen".

SodanTok

Royaji wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

General changes - Shadow got huge buff that apparently makes it viable or even BiS in many scenarios over classic mag/stam builds. Cant say and probably will never be able to do such a test that would confirm which way to build is better (we still need penetration and tools to get it are limited), but if you are wearing penetration set like TFS it could be very option to switch to shadow over warrior (you were probably using)

Are changes to shadow relevant for stam builds though? I'm having hard time believing that "Shadow/TFS" will outDPS "Lover/Relequen".

Shadow Relequen would if you can get penetration in reasonable manner somewhere else. It is much easier on DW since they have melee set with penetration (kragh) and their enchants just got gutted so no reason to not put sharpened on one or even both weapons.

For bow I dont know yet, I dont think sharpened frontbar bow would be good and kragh is obv not good option. But there is always the fallback option I have yet to test, that was good but not better than best - tfs/rele with master bow.

(also pets got buff/fix this patch and so master bow finally buffs bear and should buff atronach too)

Royaji

SodanTok wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

General changes - Shadow got huge buff that apparently makes it viable or even BiS in many scenarios over classic mag/stam builds. Cant say and probably will never be able to do such a test that would confirm which way to build is better (we still need penetration and tools to get it are limited), but if you are wearing penetration set like TFS it could be very option to switch to shadow over warrior (you were probably using)

Are changes to shadow relevant for stam builds though? I'm having hard time believing that "Shadow/TFS" will outDPS "Lover/Relequen".

Shadow Relequen would if you can get penetration in reasonable manner somewhere else. It is much easier on DW since they have melee set with penetration (kragh) and their enchants just got gutted so no reason to not put sharpened on one or even both weapons.

For bow I dont know yet, I dont think sharpened frontbar bow would be good and kragh is obv not good option. But there is always the fallback option I have yet to test, that was good but not better than best - tfs/rele with master bow.

(also pets got buff/fix this patch and so master bow finally buffs bear and should buff atronach too)

Honestly I kinda forgot about the no monster set option. I'm still a bit skeptical though since a build like that will leave you with fairly low crit chance. It will be interesting to see the results of your tests.

SodanTok

Royaji wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

General changes - Shadow got huge buff that apparently makes it viable or even BiS in many scenarios over classic mag/stam builds. Cant say and probably will never be able to do such a test that would confirm which way to build is better (we still need penetration and tools to get it are limited), but if you are wearing penetration set like TFS it could be very option to switch to shadow over warrior (you were probably using)

Are changes to shadow relevant for stam builds though? I'm having hard time believing that "Shadow/TFS" will outDPS "Lover/Relequen".

Shadow Relequen would if you can get penetration in reasonable manner somewhere else. It is much easier on DW since they have melee set with penetration (kragh) and their enchants just got gutted so no reason to not put sharpened on one or even both weapons.

For bow I dont know yet, I dont think sharpened frontbar bow would be good and kragh is obv not good option. But there is always the fallback option I have yet to test, that was good but not better than best - tfs/rele with master bow.

(also pets got buff/fix this patch and so master bow finally buffs bear and should buff atronach too)

Honestly I kinda forgot about the no monster set option. I'm still a bit skeptical though since a build like that will leave you with fairly low crit chance. It will be interesting to see the results of your tests.

I am too, and I dont believe it can be the best option. Master Bow is fairly weak set. There is also the 'forgotten' or maybe 'forbidden' TFS front bar option that is better than people give it credit.

As for crit, its not much of issue, in just tfs/rele you already have 16% more crit than your everyday magbuild in shadow will have, but also 18% less than everyday meta stambuild has, funny how that works.

Jowrik

Hey SodanTok,

I was wondering if you tried running Relequen + Twice-born star + vMA bow + Master Bow ?
Mundus stones either lover + shadow or thief + shadow if you can get enough penetration.

Nightblade Khajiit ideally

thoughts?

SodanTok

Jowrik wrote: »

Hey SodanTok,

I was wondering if you tried running Relequen + Twice-born star + vMA bow + Master Bow ?
Mundus stones either lover + shadow or thief + shadow if you can get enough penetration.

Nightblade Khajiit ideally

thoughts?

I wasnt considering it for one reason and thats that TFS + Shadow or Leviathan + Lover would be marginally better than TBS in every situation. Unfortunately the benefit of TBS is the ability to change effect of set on the go, something we wouldnt really aim to.
But Yeah I am considering trying TFS+Rele with shadow. And other attempts at using shadow because that mundus just feels very good from very basics tests I did even on low penetration.

SodanTok

After trying some different ways I can conclude that shadow is way to go (i know, something that was obvious from many other tests).

I tried these setups:

• Tzogvin (1400 pen bonus) set with Shadow Mundus and 61 CP in Piercing. 47.3k average DPS
• Tzogvin + Lover and around 20 CP in Piercing. This setup had around 1400 more pen than above 47.7k average DPS
• Tzogvin + Sharpened bow, Shadow mundus and CP enough to match penetration of first setup 47.9k average DPS
• Same as 3rd option but with CP enough to match penetration of 2nd option 48.4k DPS

Reason i tested this varied penetration is because the first one is basically the baseline minimum and there is no way to get more yet also impossible to do without highest CP. While something like lover allows for very variable setting of penetration. Groups that can rely on minor fracture, alkosh, crusher etc can aim for lower but if you plan to do less serious stuff or dungeons you will want more.

So if results say anything (and they dont tell much because luck and human error at this point makes bigger difference), there is very small reason to consider lover anymore. The first setup barely did worse when having less penetration. But most importantly both lover approach and CP penetration stacking approach can be pretty much thrown away anyway.

Using sharpened bow (preferably combined with basically the best set for bows - tzogvin) is simply better than all other setups and still offers the advantage of getting more pen from CP when needed. And should perform better even without the set.
For the record in all my tests (because of my rotation) i spent the maximum possible amount of time on front bar so I am getting the best from frontbar only penetration of tzogvin and sharpened weapon. Someone spending much longer time on back could have different results, but probably not that much to in any way offset the advantage of the sharpened bow/shadow setup.

I also tested for fun Master bow with TFS (and shadow mundus) combo and it performed reasonably well. For lack of time I couldnt do enough tests and so I dont want to state exact average DPS, but it was above 47k making it viable, tho very pointless alternative.

zerlis

With the new changes in this update, is it better to go Rele + Tzogvin + Stormfist + Shadow mundus? At least over having TFS + Rele + Stormfist + Warrior Mundus?

SodanTok

zerlis wrote: »

With the new changes in this update, is it better to go Rele + Tzogvin + Stormfist + Shadow mundus? At least over having TFS + Rele + Stormfist + Warrior Mundus?

Yup. In my opinion (and backed by few tests i did):

Rele + Tzogvin + Shadow with Sharpened front bar bow is the best way to go. Monster sets can be again veli or stormfist, I still prefer stormfist for ranged fights.

hungrymagpie

Would using bow/h2 be better for skills such as major brutality 20%dmg and heals for 33 seconds and have all support skills on backbar???

SodanTok

hungrymagpie wrote: »

Would using bow/h2 be better for skills such as major brutality 20%dmg and heals for 33 seconds and have all support skills on backbar???

Nope. In PVP maybe. In PVE nope. There is no synergy between any melee weapon and bow (when bow is used as main weapon) because all 2H skills are melee and because bow needs constant bow light attacks to keep stacks of Hawk Eye. Major Brutality is also buff easily gotten from potions or Sorcerer/Warden skills and heal is nowhere near close the power of vigor.

SodanTok

Guide updated for latest patch with overall revamp and trimming to hopefully make it easier to follow. Links updated too for builds that can offer something simpler or better than this guide.

Intentionally avoided the recent Shadow Silk (Trapping Webs) craze, because I dont feel competent enough to talk about it and dont have time or possibilities to test it out properly. If it really becomes as OP and must have skill as some recent discussions/videos show I will obviously mention it eventually.

DoonerSeraph

I've been looking a to this thread for quite a while , and would like to thank you all for all this amazing work.

I've been trying to reach 35k on my Bow/Bow stamina sorcerer, but unfortunately, I can barely break 31k.

My theories

• Maybe my build sucks, sustain is quite good but maybe I have sacrificed too much damage for it.
• Maybe I'm distributing my CP wrong.
• Maybe my rotation is simply bad
• Maybe I have too much passive skills slotted (like hunter and armaments) and not enough damage skills

What I'm trying to achieve

1. Trying to deal 35k dps on a realistic environment (avoid overpenetration, no HP food, etc)
2. Trying to not "break the bank" using potions (brutality, savagery) on cooldown (poisons are fine)
3. Trying to avoid using 2 cast time abilities (snipe+channeled acceleration, I would like to keep one of those two), using both feels clunky to me, and focused aim benefits more from bow and sorc passives), but if needed, I will so do so.
4. I'm trying to avoid sustain problems, maybe too hard and sacrificing too much for it.

I didn't have time to farm Tzgovin's Warband yet, so I'm using Gryphon's Ferocity, VO and Stormfist (vMA bow backbar).

I would like to hear your opinions on my build and rotation, and I am attaching print screen of my SuperStar and one parse on a 3m dummy (6m yields same result).

Build



Parse



Rotation (from the same parse above)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFoEF-60g74

Toc de Malsvi

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I've been looking a to this thread for quite a while , and would like to thank you all for all this amazing work.

I've been trying to reach 35k on my Bow/Bow stamina sorcerer, but unfortunately, I can barely break 31k.

My theories

• Maybe my build sucks, sustain is quite good but maybe I have sacrificed too much damage for it.
• Maybe I'm distributing my CP wrong.
• Maybe my rotation is simply bad
• Maybe I have too much passive skills slotted (like hunter and armaments) and not enough damage skills

What I'm trying to achieve

1. Trying to deal 35k dps on a realistic environment (avoid overpenetration, no HP food, etc)
2. Trying to not "break the bank" using potions (brutality, savagery) on cooldown (poisons are fine)
3. Trying to avoid using 2 cast time abilities (snipe+channeled acceleration, I would like to keep one of those two), using both feels clunky to me, and focused aim benefits more from bow and sorc passives), but if needed, I will so do so.
4. I'm trying to avoid sustain problems, maybe too hard and sacrificing too much for it.

I didn't have time to farm Tzgovin's Warband yet, so I'm using Gryphon's Ferocity, VO and Stormfist (vMA bow backbar).

I would like to hear your opinions on my build and rotation, and I am attaching print screen of my SuperStar and one parse on a 3m dummy (6m yields same result).

Build



Parse



Rotation (from the same parse above)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFoEF-60g74

So first off you really don't need/want Acid Spray in that rotation. Drop it and use another snipe cast. Snipe is doing 25k avg for you and Acid Spray is doing 10k direct and another 9k dot. The change in rotation is hardly and issue.

Second I personally would suggest dropping Mighty to 56(at a maximum) and Peircing down to 40ish(at a maximum). Bump Master at Arms up and you could even bump Thaumaturge up as well.

Third you have two recovery glyphs and really don't need either. Most PVE builds run all weapon damage glyphs. At bare minimum drop one recovery glyph for another weapon damage glyph.

Since you are not using a Pen set and no Sharpened weapons you should probably swap to Lover for mundus.

DoonerSeraph

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

I've been looking a to this thread for quite a while , and would like to thank you all for all this amazing work.

I've been trying to reach 35k on my Bow/Bow stamina sorcerer, but unfortunately, I can barely break 31k.

My theories

• Maybe my build sucks, sustain is quite good but maybe I have sacrificed too much damage for it.
• Maybe I'm distributing my CP wrong.
• Maybe my rotation is simply bad
• Maybe I have too much passive skills slotted (like hunter and armaments) and not enough damage skills

What I'm trying to achieve

1. Trying to deal 35k dps on a realistic environment (avoid overpenetration, no HP food, etc)
2. Trying to not "break the bank" using potions (brutality, savagery) on cooldown (poisons are fine)
3. Trying to avoid using 2 cast time abilities (snipe+channeled acceleration, I would like to keep one of those two), using both feels clunky to me, and focused aim benefits more from bow and sorc passives), but if needed, I will so do so.
4. I'm trying to avoid sustain problems, maybe too hard and sacrificing too much for it.

I didn't have time to farm Tzgovin's Warband yet, so I'm using Gryphon's Ferocity, VO and Stormfist (vMA bow backbar).

I would like to hear your opinions on my build and rotation, and I am attaching print screen of my SuperStar and one parse on a 3m dummy (6m yields same result).

Build



Parse



Rotation (from the same parse above)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFoEF-60g74

So first off you really don't need/want Acid Spray in that rotation. Drop it and use another snipe cast. Snipe is doing 25k avg for you and Acid Spray is doing 10k direct and another 9k dot. The change in rotation is hardly and issue.

Second I personally would suggest dropping Mighty to 56(at a maximum) and Peircing down to 40ish(at a maximum). Bump Master at Arms up and you could even bump Thaumaturge up as well.

Third you have two recovery glyphs and really don't need either. Most PVE builds run all weapon damage glyphs. At bare minimum drop one recovery glyph for another weapon damage glyph.

Since you are not using a Pen set and no Sharpened weapons you should probably swap to Lover for mundus.

Thank you, that was really helpful 😁

What do you suggest putting on the bar instead of Acid Spray? Silver shards just for the Slayer passive?

Acid spray is a stamina hog and yeah its very short dot and not easy to mantain.

SodanTok

@DoonerSeraph Toc mentiond most (i may repeat some points here):

• Gryphon set isnt very good option, but you know that and you will get tzogvin eventually
• Too much damage sacrificed for sustain. First now you know to drop resource hog Acid Spray and you already wear VO. That should probably be all your sustain (last good option is infused bow for more enchant procs). You should not need more than that and you can put in few heavy attacks.
• As Toc said, you have low penetration. Aim for something like 7-8k (Lover mundus + CP piercing + 1320 minor fracture from focused aim)
• Because of how ranged stamsorc is relatively boring (pew pew pew pew recast 3 dots and repeat) you can imagine the big chunk of damage comes from direct hits, your CP doesnt reflect that well. After you get enough in piercing for the above point, try getting 75 points from middle blue tree (so prob like 66 master at arms and 9 phys weapon) then around 56 in Mighty and 48-56 in critical strikes and rest in Thaumaturge (will probably be like 48?)
• Obviouly, but you know that, you are missing good chunk of damage from not having relequen but thats unrelated to your goal (around 40k dps is doable without it). Tzogvin set also very important which you are planning to work on
• Last are jewelry, but i wouldnt waste transmutation on gryphon set jewelry. Go all 3 Infused or 2 Infused 1 bloodthirsty.

DoonerSeraph

SodanTok wrote: »

@DoonerSeraph Toc mentiond most (i may repeat some points here):

• Gryphon set isnt very good option, but you know that and you will get tzogvin eventually
• Too much damage sacrificed for sustain. First now you know to drop resource hog Acid Spray and you already wear VO. That should probably be all your sustain (last good option is infused bow for more enchant procs). You should not need more than that and you can put in few heavy attacks.
• As Toc said, you have low penetration. Aim for something like 7-8k (Lover mundus + CP piercing + 1320 minor fracture from focused aim)
• Because of how ranged stamsorc is relatively boring (pew pew pew pew recast 3 dots and repeat) you can imagine the big chunk of damage comes from direct hits, your CP doesnt reflect that well. After you get enough in piercing for the above point, try getting 75 points from middle blue tree (so prob like 66 master at arms and 9 phys weapon) then around 56 in Mighty and 48-56 in critical strikes and rest in Thaumaturge (will probably be like 48?)
• Obviouly, but you know that, you are missing good chunk of damage from not having relequen but thats unrelated to your goal (around 40k dps is doable without it). Tzogvin set also very important which you are planning to work on
• Last are jewelry, but i wouldnt waste transmutation on gryphon set jewelry. Go all 3 Infused or 2 Infused 1 bloodthirsty.

Aside from farming Tzgovin and transmuting, I have changed my CP and mundus, and achieved around 34k, thats way better, even though my aoe damage is probably even worse and as you said, bow sorc is kinda boring and uni-dimensional, I feel kinda bad spamming snipe 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyway, your tips are solid and the boring gameplay is a design problem, if I used relequen I would have to drop VO right, since both are minor slayer sets and dont stack, also Tzgovin is a must, I do have a relequen set lying around, but would need to farm a tzgovin bow to front bar.

I removed acid spray and put Silver Shards on the bar for the Slayer passive, any other options there? Thanks 😁

SodanTok

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

@DoonerSeraph Toc mentiond most (i may repeat some points here):

• Gryphon set isnt very good option, but you know that and you will get tzogvin eventually
• Too much damage sacrificed for sustain. First now you know to drop resource hog Acid Spray and you already wear VO. That should probably be all your sustain (last good option is infused bow for more enchant procs). You should not need more than that and you can put in few heavy attacks.
• As Toc said, you have low penetration. Aim for something like 7-8k (Lover mundus + CP piercing + 1320 minor fracture from focused aim)
• Because of how ranged stamsorc is relatively boring (pew pew pew pew recast 3 dots and repeat) you can imagine the big chunk of damage comes from direct hits, your CP doesnt reflect that well. After you get enough in piercing for the above point, try getting 75 points from middle blue tree (so prob like 66 master at arms and 9 phys weapon) then around 56 in Mighty and 48-56 in critical strikes and rest in Thaumaturge (will probably be like 48?)
• Obviouly, but you know that, you are missing good chunk of damage from not having relequen but thats unrelated to your goal (around 40k dps is doable without it). Tzogvin set also very important which you are planning to work on
• Last are jewelry, but i wouldnt waste transmutation on gryphon set jewelry. Go all 3 Infused or 2 Infused 1 bloodthirsty.

Aside from farming Tzgovin and transmuting, I have changed my CP and mundus, and achieved around 34k, thats way better, even though my aoe damage is probably even worse and as you said, bow sorc is kinda boring and uni-dimensional, I feel kinda bad spamming snipe 🤷🏻‍♂️

Anyway, your tips are solid and the boring gameplay is a design problem, if I used relequen I would have to drop VO right, since both are minor slayer sets and dont stack, also Tzgovin is a must, I do have a relequen set lying around, but would need to farm a tzgovin bow to front bar.

I removed acid spray and put Silver Shards on the bar for the Slayer passive, any other options there? Thanks 😁

No much options, on sorc you can always after 2 bound armors slot crit surge for selfhealing or hurricane for aoe (melee) dps. If you really have too much barscape you can even slot matriarch for some 600 DPS and health if you really have just 2 empty bars.

In case your feeling of just spamming snipe gets the better of you, feel free to use crushing weapon (psijic) as spammable. It will be DPS loss obv but sometimes using instant cast skill can feel much more enjoyable.

Jowrik

Would you still recommend double-barring Relentless Focus for NB?

SodanTok

Jowrik wrote: »

Would you still recommend double-barring Relentless Focus for NB?

Honestly, its 'bad' advice but yes. Objectively the passive 10% crit is already good to have on back, but I guess from the total min maxing point to last digit it is bad to suggest shooting bow procs from backbar (you have slightly less stats there), but for me personally it is worth it for sake of easier rotation.

DoonerSeraph

Got my Tzogvin's set, still need to purple the jewels, but that is really good, way better than Gryphon

It ramps up very fast and provides amazing uptime for minor force.

Thank you so much for the help, @Toc de Malsvi and @SodanTok

Palefang

Hey guys !

I read the topic carefully but still wanted some extra pieces of information.

So far so good, I'm running on stamblade. I started tinkering on bow/bow setups to deal with some HM I had trouble with as previously a close range fighter.
Right now, I'm dealing 47-48k dps with the following setup :
- Bosmer, blue food, shadow mundus.
- TFS / Relequen / Master's Bow (MB) / Maelstrom Bow (BB, infused berserk).

I run those skills :
Snipe / Poison Injection / Killer's Blade* / Relentless Focus / Channeled Acceleration** / Flawless Dawnbreaker
Caltroops / Endless Hail / Double Take*** (with a tank) or Mark (solo) / Leeching Strikes / Resolving Vigor / Ballista

* Killer's blade is here even if I uses bow. The thing is, in most situation, you can finish your target at close range. It is also one of the main reason to play NB over Warden.
** Channeled Acceleration can be BB with one of the BB skills going MB. But, we need one assassination skill BB, and no other skill is likely to give a passive boost. At least, CA makes blocking MB faster and more revelent.
*** Double Take is like Blade Cloak, but for ranged. It helps tremendously to stay alive in typical hard modes. It is also a way to have the assassination passive on back bar. It costs magicka, so it doesn't tap in my precious stamina pool.

In some fights, it's quite hard to stay alive, move, dodge, all the while channeling Snipe. (Malatar HM ?) So sometimes, I just run Crushing Weapon instead of Snipe. It gives amazing regen and survivability (especially with Double take and Vigor).

So, I'm doing quite O.K.
But I see you tested and advise to go on Relequen + Tzogvin's + Monster set.
I don't get why Monster Set over Master's bow to begin with... It gives 300 weapon damage (boosted by all passives), which is more than 2x 121 weapon damages from 2 separate sets. As a Bosmer, i don't need Stormfist's regen, and I play at relatively long range. So, Velidreth isn't really good option either for me.

I didn't tested Tzogvin's yet, and I understand that having 1487+2750 pen only main bar isn't a problem (I am 80% of time on main bar), but I'm more concerned about having to run sharpened over precise or Infused... Precise give more crit than Tzogvin's and Infused with poison used to be insane.

Is Tzogvin's + monster set really way better than a TFS + master's ?
I don't mind grinding it, but I have a full gold setup, and it will take a lot of time and ressources to invest into something new... So, in a nutshell, I want to know if there is a noticeable difference.