Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Updated for Stonethorn

SodanTok

Palefang wrote: »

Hey guys !

I read the topic carefully but still wanted some extra pieces of information.

So far so good, I'm running on stamblade. I started tinkering on bow/bow setups to deal with some HM I had trouble with as previously a close range fighter.
Right now, I'm dealing 47-48k dps with the following setup :
- Bosmer, blue food, shadow mundus.
- TFS / Relequen / Master's Bow (MB) / Maelstrom Bow (BB, infused berserk).

I run those skills :
Snipe / Poison Injection / Killer's Blade* / Relentless Focus / Channeled Acceleration** / Flawless Dawnbreaker
Caltroops / Endless Hail / Double Take*** (with a tank) or Mark (solo) / Leeching Strikes / Resolving Vigor / Ballista

* Killer's blade is here even if I uses bow. The thing is, in most situation, you can finish your target at close range. It is also one of the main reason to play NB over Warden.
** Channeled Acceleration can be BB with one of the BB skills going MB. But, we need one assassination skill BB, and no other skill is likely to give a passive boost. At least, CA makes blocking MB faster and more revelent.
*** Double Take is like Blade Cloak, but for ranged. It helps tremendously to stay alive in typical hard modes. It is also a way to have the assassination passive on back bar. It costs magicka, so it doesn't tap in my precious stamina pool.

In some fights, it's quite hard to stay alive, move, dodge, all the while channeling Snipe. (Malatar HM ?) So sometimes, I just run Crushing Weapon instead of Snipe. It gives amazing regen and survivability (especially with Double take and Vigor).

So, I'm doing quite O.K.
But I see you tested and advise to go on Relequen + Tzogvin's + Monster set.
I don't get why Monster Set over Master's bow to begin with... It gives 300 weapon damage (boosted by all passives), which is more than 2x 121 weapon damages from 2 separate sets. As a Bosmer, i don't need Stormfist's regen, and I play at relatively long range. So, Velidreth isn't really good option either for me.

I didn't tested Tzogvin's yet, and I understand that having 1487+2750 pen only main bar isn't a problem (I am 80% of time on main bar), but I'm more concerned about having to run sharpened over precise or Infused... Precise give more crit than Tzogvin's and Infused with poison used to be insane.

Is Tzogvin's + monster set really way better than a TFS + master's ?
I don't mind grinding it, but I have a full gold setup, and it will take a lot of time and ressources to invest into something new... So, in a nutshell, I want to know if there is a noticeable difference.

Way better? No. Just better? Yes.
Master Bow is very weak. As you noticed its 300 damage. That 300 weapon damage is applied only to targets you shoot with poison injection. On normal rotation that alone is just 70-80% which is 210 weapon damage and only on one target usually. So even simple 2 monster sets of 129 weapon damage are better. Tzogvin on other hand is set that on frontbar gives you everything 100% (bar the 4th piece) since it has 10s duration. It also has pen (useful).

If you dont want to run stormfist or veli just feel free to use 1kragh 1veli for 129WD+1400pen, thats still more than Master Bow. In that scenario you could still run Infused or Precise bow.

Honestly if golding and grinding new stuff is issue I would almost tell you to not bother, but not having to run channeled acceleration alone is worth switching to tzogvin

Palefang

Thanks for answer.

Another way to phrase it :
On a Master's Bow + TFS, here are your bonus
+270 WD (Poison Injection's uptime is ~90% on my parses)
+129 WD
+1100 stam
+3,8% crit
+7% crit (let's assume we're running precise for this calculation) --> Only MB

On Veli-Kena-Tzogvin's :
+129 WD x2
+3,8% crit x2
+1487 + 2750 (sharpened) pen --> Only MB
+ minor force + 6% crit (all the time)

The switch would mean :
-1100 stam
- 141 WD
+2,8% crit MB (+9,8% crit BB)
Same pen MB (-4300 pen BB)

Overall, it's a bit of a loss on damage pool, and as dual bow, we have a very small damage pool. (6900 in fight in my case.)
On the other hand, 100% uptime on crit (roughtly >3%DPS) is better than 100% uptime on pen (<2,5% DPS).
What I feel tricky is selling Tzogvin's as a way to not having to run Acceleration, since there will be some situations in which you won't be able to DPS (mechanics mostly) and can refresh it.

The thing is... there is no way to have Tzogvin's + Relequen gold jewels for me. So, it's also a down for this setup...

What would you run in the fight that won't allow Relequen ? If we go the road of Tzogvin's Sharpened bow, we can't run TFS at the same time.

hungrymagpie

Will i be ok as a nightblade or would i get dramatically better results on warden?

SodanTok

hungrymagpie wrote: »

Will i be ok as a nightblade or would i get dramatically better results on warden?

There is virtually no difference between nightblade and warden damage potential.

Palefang wrote: »

Thanks for answer.

Another way to phrase it :
On a Master's Bow + TFS, here are your bonus
+270 WD (Poison Injection's uptime is ~90% on my parses)
+129 WD
+1100 stam
+3,8% crit
+7% crit (let's assume we're running precise for this calculation) --> Only MB

On Veli-Kena-Tzogvin's :
+129 WD x2
+3,8% crit x2
+1487 + 2750 (sharpened) pen --> Only MB
+ minor force + 6% crit (all the time)

The switch would mean :
-1100 stam
- 141 WD
+2,8% crit MB (+9,8% crit BB)
Same pen MB (-4300 pen BB)

Overall, it's a bit of a loss on damage pool, and as dual bow, we have a very small damage pool. (6900 in fight in my case.)
On the other hand, 100% uptime on crit (roughtly >3%DPS) is better than 100% uptime on pen (<2,5% DPS).
What I feel tricky is selling Tzogvin's as a way to not having to run Acceleration, since there will be some situations in which you won't be able to DPS (mechanics mostly) and can refresh it.

The thing is... there is no way to have Tzogvin's + Relequen gold jewels for me. So, it's also a down for this setup...

What would you run in the fight that won't allow Relequen ? If we go the road of Tzogvin's Sharpened bow, we can't run TFS at the same time.

Not having acceleration is gain of whole skill slot do not ignore that. And obv dps gain in situation where you would have to recast it mid rotation.

As for wherever having 3 golden or not matters I cannot say. We are talking minuscule differences and introducing more variables to this makes it even worse. Chances are it will have no impact at all on you. Chances are having this all bar penetration rather than main bar or having more damage could be even gain in content you are doing (like dungeon HM). Then again, there is obviously indisputable advantage of AoE damage in that content.

I play warden so my go to replacement for Rele is quite easily War machine. But I would use VO or even TFS when situation allows (like 4man content where you dont get to have alkosh or minor fracture)

Palefang

@hungrymagpie
In my experience, nightblade will deal a little more damages if you can get close for the finishing phase. Otherwise, warden will deal a bit more. Both are tied for n*1 class choice for me, and differences are minimal.

@SodanTok
Thanks for your answers :-)

Ender1310

I am reaching a solid 35K dps Bow bow build. I would like to push it to 40K that would be awesome. I still have some tweaks to go I.E. infused/bloodthirsty on the rings and infused vs sharpened on the front bow. Also a weapons damage enchant on the back bow. Hoping these things along with golding out some body pieces will make a difference!

SodanTok

Ender1310 wrote: »

I am reaching a solid 35K dps Bow bow build. I would like to push it to 40K that would be awesome. I still have some tweaks to go I.E. infused/bloodthirsty on the rings and infused vs sharpened on the front bow. Also a weapons damage enchant on the back bow. Hoping these things along with golding out some body pieces will make a difference!

The biggest difference between 35k and 45-50k assuming mandatory relequen/VMA Bow/maxCP arent in gear anymore but rotation. Make sure those light attacks are hitting properly and fast.

giantpixie

I’m really interested in running a bow/bow build on my Stam sorc can anyone suggest to me a skill list?

SodanTok

giantpixie wrote: »

I’m really interested in running a bow/bow build on my Stam sorc can anyone suggest to me a skill list?

In the first post there is skills category, essentially slot everything bold and give good thought to everything not bold

MrBrownstone

Is it worth transmuting Jewelry to Infused even if they're Epic?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

Is it worth transmuting Jewelry to Infused even if they're Epic?

yes.

purple infused jewelry increase the Enchantment Effect by 51%. so 174*51% = 88 weapon damage and you get 840 stamina from purple robust. most skill have a 10.5 to 1 stamina to weapon damage ratio, so you are trading essentially 80 weapon damage, 840/10.5, for 88. plus you have to factor in all the weapon damage amps that dont impact your stamina and infused pulls even further ahead.

FrancisCrawford

Hiya!

DKs' 25% cost reduction on poison damage skills eliminates about 1/3 of the cost of Lethal Arrow, Acid Spray and Poison Injection. Are there any builds exploiting this fact? Or is bow-bow sustain so good in general that nobody cares much about getting more?

SodanTok

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Hiya!

DKs' 25% cost reduction on poison damage skills eliminates about 1/3 of the cost of Lethal Arrow, Acid Spray and Poison Injection. Are there any builds exploiting this fact? Or is bow-bow sustain so good in general that nobody cares much about getting more?

I dont play DK but on the first page there is link to Murkmire patch build that exploits this for Asylum Bow build. But if looking for something traditional, then PI is used as with any build and Lethal Arrow is the most performing spammable you can have on bow so those are obvious. Acid Spray is nearly always a lots of damage coming from one instant ability (kinda like AoE rending) so if it doesnt create any sustain problems its possible choice, but unfortunately just spamming Lethal Arrow all day is kinda the easiest and most performing way

DoonerSeraph

@SodanTok , what do you think about the 25% nerf that snipe (is about to, as from patch notes) got?

Bladerunner1

Something isn't right about snipe on the PTS 5.0.0. Contrary to what the patch notes imply, it seems to be taking the same length of time to weave the skill between light attacks, and it definitely is 25% weaker.

SodanTok

From notes it seemed like quite huge unnecessary nerf. Depends if its DPS loss or not (for example notes claimed uppercut dmg change isnt loss, but they skipped saying anything about snipe).

DoonerSeraph

SodanTok wrote: »

From notes it seemed like quite huge unnecessary nerf. Depends if its DPS loss or not (for example notes claimed uppercut dmg change isnt loss, but they skipped saying anything about snipe).

Yeah, lost a chunk of DPS with those changes, and there's no difference in weaving, in other words, huge nerf with no compensation.

Jowrik

Did some testing on NB bow/bow on multiple dummies yesterday.

Taking lag from EU into account, I was able to pull off more DPS not using Grim Focus at all & just use snipe instead. During execute phase it's even less wanted to activate the skill.

Relequen + Tzogvin + Stormfist + 3x WD enchant, 2x infused 1x bloodthirsty + reaper's mark
3m dummy : 44k-ish without grim focus
3m dummy : 42k-ish with grim focus

25m fully raidbuffed dummy (new one)
- 64k without grim focus
- 62k with grim focus

Still got better results than using velidreth + 1x stam rec enchant (not infused).

I really hope they'll rework grim focus atleast. Snipe feels hardly any different weaving than currently on Live. Crits less than Grim Focus proc but the uptime for it is not worth it (losing 2GCD for buff uptime + proc).

Didn't take any screenshots yet but saved couple of logs, so maybe will post later. Still 60% convinced they'll change grim focus but I wouldn't really count on any snipe changes...

SodanTok

Jowrik wrote: »

Did some testing on NB bow/bow on multiple dummies yesterday.

Taking lag from EU into account, I was able to pull off more DPS not using Grim Focus at all & just use snipe instead. During execute phase it's even less wanted to activate the skill.

Relequen + Tzogvin + Stormfist + 3x WD enchant, 2x infused 1x bloodthirsty + reaper's mark
3m dummy : 44k-ish without grim focus
3m dummy : 42k-ish with grim focus

25m fully raidbuffed dummy (new one)
- 64k without grim focus
- 62k with grim focus

Still got better results than using velidreth + 1x stam rec enchant (not infused).

I really hope they'll rework grim focus atleast. Snipe feels hardly any different weaving than currently on Live. Crits less than Grim Focus proc but the uptime for it is not worth it (losing 2GCD for buff uptime + proc).

Didn't take any screenshots yet but saved couple of logs, so maybe will post later. Still 60% convinced they'll change grim focus but I wouldn't really count on any snipe changes...

I guess I should give snipe a try to make sure, but feels like crushing + grim focus simply amounts for more effective rotation at least just on dummy. I got 70k with it and it was mostly just reapplying stuff as it went off. (Still far from 75k I get on warden with cutting dive rotation)
My PTS ping is like 280 but and with that all what changed to snipe for me from live is that it goes like 50-100ms faster.

It was also with Dark Shade which is OP and must have ability, but without Acid Spray yet, which seems to be too good to pass on too (damage wise) but still bit expensive.

Rethil

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=149560

My current NB bow/bow build. Pulling same DPS as dw/bow with AY, less than new meta for dw/bow, but still viable.

Mark can be swapped with Dark Shade and then Vigor can be put at blackbar in place of Dark Shade if you don't think heal from LA is enough.

Pre Buff: Leeching Strikes -> Relentless Focus

Rotation: Endless Hail -> LA -> Razor Caltrops -> LA -> Poison Injection -> LA -> (if multiple add LA betwean) Dark Shade (if down) / Leeching Strikes (if down) / Ballista (if ready) -> SWAP -> LA -> Acid Spray -> LA -> Spectral Bow (if ready) -> LA -> Crushing Weapon (repeat with waving until Acid Spray DoT down) -> Acid Spray (if Endless Hail still up) -> LA -> SWAP -> Endless Hail ...

Execute: Keep up Endless Hail, Razor Caltrops, Acid Spray (AS till maybe 10%, then drop) and spam Killer's Blade in melee range, with LA Waving as always. Use ulti if ready.

CP are not optimised, I just made them on the spot, feel free to tweak them.

When running dungeons with healer that is not using orbs / shards and no sustain at all, swap dawnbreaker with incap.

Rethil

I meant, in vigor setup you resign from mark.

SodanTok

Thank you, its nice to see proper (and snipeless) rotation laid out I will check it out later and highlight link to your post so other can find it too

Zero_Mutt

is the extra 1290 weapon crit from Tzogvins better than the 449 weapon damage from Briarheart? Or is Tzogvins preferred because it lets you take something else instead of Rearming trap

I run Spriggans+Briarheart currently and I have decent enough dps to do cloudrest to get relequen armor. I dont have eso+ so I cant get Tzogvins right now so how much dps would I be theoretically be losing for not using tzogvins?

I only do vet dungeons, should I just keep what I have or should I atleast get releqeun?

SodanTok

Zero_Mutt wrote: »

is the extra 1290 weapon crit from Tzogvins better than the 449 weapon damage from Briarheart? Or is Tzogvins preferred because it lets you take something else instead of Rearming trap

I run Spriggans+Briarheart currently and I have decent enough dps to do cloudrest to get relequen armor. I dont have eso+ so I cant get Tzogvins right now so how much dps would I be theoretically be losing for not using tzogvins?

I only do vet dungeons, should I just keep what I have or should I atleast get releqeun?

Tzogvin is preffered both because it gives you crit (something bow build would lack since it cant use AY) and removes necessity to use channeled acceleration for minor force. On top of it it has penetration as one of bonuses, something hard to obtain outside of CP with Shadow meta.

How much DPS you are losing is hard to say. But not much really as long as you are getting different source of minor force (from trap i guess, even tho its melee). It is simply better set, its not in any way game changing. Could be like 2-4% for you.

As for relequen, its not much useful in dungeons, but it has its moments. Will be very useful to have either way.

Mendosa

Well, I look forward to what will be written here after the latest pts updates. Our arsenal seems to be quite affected.

SodanTok

Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

SodanTok wrote: »

Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups

what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

Toc de Malsvi

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups

what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

The other morph of trap does almost double the damage and has almost double the buff duration for only 7% more cost.

From my testing:

Melee trap for 2750 stam:
18 seconds Minor Force
50k total damage

Ranged Trap for 2555 stam:
10 seconds minor force
26k total damage

So you need to spend almost twice the stam for the same value. Except Bow weapon damage is lower and Trap doesn't scale with Hawkeye so its actually worse.

Toc de Malsvi

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups

what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

Soul Trap and Shadow Silk are nice, except again there is no reason melee isn't using them for more damage than ranged.

The primary "catch-up" mechanic Hawkeye buffing bow abilities doesn't affect those skills. The skill it did affect, Volley, is now doing considerably less damage. I have a 5k drop on my parses, went from 12k down to 7k.

Ballista is down damage supposedly because it was double dipping before.

But to give you an idea I spent several hours getting Bow/Bow to 70k on the trial dummy where I was at 77k last PTS. I did two runs on a DW/2H FULL MELEE build and hit 75k without any optimization or rotation planning.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Probably guide how to transition to magicka/melee stups

what? bow got 3 new skills to work with, soul trap, Lightweight Trap Beast, which got a buff and will probably be awesome to use now and shadow silk, which got a 75% damage increase. come on, there has to be something there.

The other morph of trap does almost double the damage and has almost double the buff duration for only 7% more cost.

From my testing:

Melee trap for 2750 stam:
18 seconds Minor Force
50k total damage

Ranged Trap for 2555 stam:
10 seconds minor force
26k total damage

So you need to spend almost twice the stam for the same value. Except Bow weapon damage is lower and Trap doesn't scale with Hawkeye so its actually worse.

sure sure, but you don't have to be in melee range to use lightweight.