Everything needed to know about Bow/Bow in PVE - Updated for Stonethorn

Almariel

Someone maybe took a look on the Hunt Leader Set for a Bow/Bow Warden? I am nor quite sure if the sustain it offers is as good as it sounds or if it is crap if you calculate it properly in comparison to other sustain possibilities...

SodanTok

Almariel wrote: »

Someone maybe took a look on the Hunt Leader Set for a Bow/Bow Warden? I am nor quite sure if the sustain it offers is as good as it sounds or if it is crap if you calculate it properly in comparison to other sustain possibilities...

Last time I checked it wasn't available on PTS to test and I cant bother to grind some VMA set, mostly because already in theory it doesn't sound like good set. It offers around 200 stamina/sec and only if you have pet that is constantly on target without dying or getting knocked away or having to run and stuff. 250 regen offers exactly same sustain in all situations in the game (except when blocking, sprinting or sneaking). Huge price to pay for set that gives no damage. For example Vicious Ophidian matches the sustain (and exceeds in trash fights) while offering damage almost as good as hunding set.

Almariel

Thx for the fast and informative answer

Yes vicious ophidian is also on my list, just weren't sure about the vma one. The tooltip looks as it was made for a stamina warden with bear.

SodanTok

Almariel wrote: »

Thx for the fast and informative answer

Yes vicious ophidian is also on my list, just weren't sure about the vma one. The tooltip looks as it was made for a stamina warden with bear.

It was made for stamina sorc using pets that never happened probably

Jitterbug

One of the best posts I have read in a long time!

MerlinPendragon

Incredible guide!

Eirianbryn30

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

Incredible guide!

Love your name! I think I saw you and your partner in game? Ps4?

exiars10

Here is another progress report.

I subscribed for one moth and unfortunately I had hardly any time to play but got free time to play for double xp Jester festival. For 4 days and 14 hours of grinding (I used 7x 2-hours xp crown scrolls) I managed to rise CP from 434 to 492.

Gear (all purple & training): 5x Shadow of Red Mountain + 3x Unfathomable Darkness + 3x Agility
Locations: around Spellscar (~90%) / Vile Manse & dolmens (~10%)

I basically had +238-248% xp boost (unfortunately didn‘t have always partner). I used Dubious Camoran Throne. Unfortunately, I didn‘t have luck to get Dubious Camoran Throne recipe :-/… Still, there is no way to buy it as prices are outrages. Better to buy drink for 90-100 g. DCT is the best food/drink after my various experiments and kudos to @SodanTok and Gilliam for it.

I did major overhaul of my CP distribution. I front loaded penetration and use Lover instead Warrior so with Reaper‘s Mark, I hit ~9.100 penetration. Those crows can easily crit over 10+k with proper CP adjustment! I also finally created comfortable skill bars:

1) Lethal Arrow – Killer‘s Blade – Relentless Focus – Reaper‘s Mark – Camouflaged Hunter // Soul Harvest
2) Shadow Silk – Endless Hail – Poison Injection* – Razor Caltrops – Resolving Vigor* // Dawnbreaker of Smithing

*I always use Acid Spray when I grind.
**Mirage is all right if there is not AoE involved. Still Vigor is more consistent.

With this combo I generate stupidly crazy amount of ulti of front bar and I farmed like madman. I finally defenitely faster grind with bow/bow then DW/bow. When I grinded around Spellscar I regularly dropped 2 or even 3 Dawnbreakers in one pull. Also stunning mob is super useful because I „tanked“ a lot. I also slotted 4 or 5 Assassination skills. I just love them . I see that farmers around Spellscar regularly activated my Shadow Silk synergy as I saw black widow spiders after killing.

For 4 years anniversary, I‘ll use the following gear combo (bows are only gold and not training one):
5x Shadow of Red Mountain + 5x Unfathomable Darkness + Hunding‘s Rage bows

Red Mountain is all right. I use Combat Metrics and volcano hits between 8-10k. It‘s triggered on any bow attack. With UD I‘m going full process sets . If you are not into min-max, they are totally legit. Both sets contribute to some 7-10% of DPS which is ok I guess? If I do proper rotation Unfathomable Darkness is active 70-75% of time and that is anyway max possible uptime.

I‘m going to pre-order Summerset, so I‘ll get Morrowind which I planned to buy anyway. I‘ll create stamina bow/bow Bosmer Warden and I hope I‘ll grind it to lvl 50 in the following event.

exiars10

@SodanTok

Did you see reports from famous players at ZOS HQ? Your initial impressions?

Huge changes incoming for bow/bow players, too. Just some my quick thoughts...

1) Jewelry crafting is going to be pretty big with new traits.
I would say one jewelry piece with stamina reduction & Infused trait is going to pretty much solve sustain for non-Red Guard races. You lose a bit of DPS, but gain massive stamina sustain.
Bloodthirsty is very interesting... with Killer's Blade.

2) Big nerf to NMG. I don't use it and neither play trials, but as everybody else said it's huge blow.

3) I created Warden last night, and now I see Subterranean Assault is going to get big nerf as I understand rightly?

4) Bows (and other 2H weapons) as 2 set piece. Finally! I watched Gilliam video and he said it's minor thing for bow/bow players. Well I agree if you have special bows, but for the rest of us plebs who don't have them, I would say it's big change. 5/5/2 or 5/4/3 are going to be possible. This opens a lot of new gear combos.
For my example, this mean it's possible to run full process combo set i.e. 2x Stormfist/Spawn of Mephala/Velidreth + 5x Shadow of Red Mountain + 5x Unfathomable Darkness.

All in all, for players who like to play differently I would say most of changes are good with some unneccessary nerfs and changes.

SodanTok

exiars10 wrote: »

SodanTok

Did you see reports from famous players at ZOS HQ? Your initial impressions?

Huge changes incoming for bow/bow players, too. Just some my quick thoughts...

1) Jewelry crafting is going to be pretty big with new traits.
I would say one jewelry piece with stamina reduction & Infused trait is going to pretty much solve sustain for non-Red Guard races. You lose a bit of DPS, but gain massive stamina sustain.
Bloodthirsty is very interesting... with Killer's Blade.

2) Big nerf to NMG. I don't use it and neither play trials, but as everybody else said it's huge blow.

3) I created Warden last night, and now I see Subterranean Assault is going to get big nerf as I understand rightly?

4) Bows (and other 2H weapons) as 2 set piece. Finally! I watched Gilliam video and he said it's minor thing for bow/bow players. Well I agree if you have special bows, but for the rest of us plebs who don't have them, I would say it's big change. 5/5/2 or 5/4/3 are going to be possible. This opens a lot of new gear combos.
For my example, this mean it's possible to run full process combo set i.e. 2x Stormfist/Spawn of Mephala/Velidreth + 5x Shadow of Red Mountain + 5x Unfathomable Darkness.

All in all, for players who like to play differently I would say most of changes are good with some unneccessary nerfs and changes.

Jewelry crafting alone will shake the meta, so not really something special for us. You will now lose more potential damage for more sustain so the balance could be preserved (now its 200 cost reduction or 179 damage, with infused trait it will be like 290 damage for 320 cost). The PVP applications for bow are much bigger (bloodthirst helping with finishing opponents)

As for NMG nerf doesnt matter, either there will be different support sets we can use or we will get even more damage by using selfish sets

Sub Assault nerf is kinda bad. It wont be noticeable as much in real fights, because we can still keep enemies debuffed almost always, will impact aoe dps of magicka builds I guess if they dont have mag warden. What will be more annoying is testing stuff on dummies alone. Since Major Fracture uptime will jump up and down depending on how many subs rotation have.

But yes the biggest change will be 2set pieces on bow. I havent watched Gilliam video but I would have to disagree if he said it isnt big deal. Master bow + any 3 piece set right now is simply worse than any 5 piece set. So replacing that with any meta set will literally be at least small upgrade. Big upgrae if you lack Master bow now.... but the biggest deal is... VO. Bow builds will be able to use VO now without losing the other (more important) 5p set or monster set. That is very huge deal for bow sustain. Now it was choice between 5VO or stormfist+agility where the sustain was +/- same single target but dmg favored stormfist setup. Now we get VO and stormfist (or veli if the sustain is too good)

I cant imagine any gear setup being better next patch (unless some new sets are good) than War Machine + VO + Stormfist on Warden with bear. Classic TFS + VO on anything else (more so now without any penetration from support sets)


So the only issue with these changes right now Is that I lose any interest in testing stuff for this patch. Because it is all pointless, everything will change next patch.

//edit:
After watching Gilliam video then yeah he has point. This in no way fixes all the other (some bigger) problems of bow. It is still significant change, but we still have low survivability, less damage, no proper spammable, sustain issues,...

Kanar

@SodanTok
Another change relevant to bow users is that light/heavy attack damage will scale with stat pool the same as how skills scale with stat pool. This is a huge buff to light attacks: before it was something like 100 (I think not sure) stat points = 1 WD, now it will be 10.45 = 1wd. Light attacks are a big part of bow dps so this is a big change.

Regarding 2handers counting as 2 set bonus, the correct comparison is agility set + master's vs 5pc VO (or some other 5 PC). It's pretty close. VO is really good though so yeah it will win but I don't think it will make as big a difference as you think. The light attack change will be bigger.

SodanTok

Kanar wrote: »

@SodanTok
Another change relevant to bow users is that light/heavy attack damage will scale with stat pool the same as how skills scale with stat pool. This is a huge buff to light attacks: before it was something like 100 (I think not sure) stat points = 1 WD, now it will be 10.45 = 1wd. Light attacks are a big part of bow dps so this is a big change.

Regarding 2handers counting as 2 set bonus, the correct comparison is agility set + master's vs 5pc VO (or some other 5 PC). It's pretty close. VO is really good though so yeah it will win but I don't think it will make as big a difference as you think. The light attack change will be bigger.

It was 40 stat = 1 wd but yes, this could have big impact. Same as the changes to bound armor or the psijic skill that boostl ight attacks. Everything that makes light attack deal damage will benefit bows (well and vma staves) most

Damage wise the 5VO will do better than master+agility. Not much but it will be better in single target and much better in AoE. And thats without the huge sustain benefit from it coming in play. So big deal. One of many many big deals bow needs, but big deal.

Toc de Malsvi

@SodanTok

The problem I see is that not many sets will work as seamlessly with VMA bow as the VDSA bow does, specifically for single target. If we compare say VDSA bow + Agility in a slot comparison it is only around 18% behind on one set bonus, which is still 95% of the overall value of another set.

Agility is roughly equivalent to 132% of a stamina set bonus, and 150% of a weapon damage set bonus. Considering 2, 3, and 4 set bonuses. While VDSA bow offers essentially the same weapon damage as Hundings without having to be on that bar.

We can have 100% uptime on both VDSA and VMA if desired. Thus if the VMA bow + 3 set, still outperforms 5 sets then the VDSA bow is still very desirable in many situations.


The best thing about this change is that it opens up more options and helps bring the floor up so to speak.

SodanTok

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

@SodanTok

The problem I see is that not many sets will work as seamlessly with VMA bow as the VDSA bow does, specifically for single target. If we compare say VDSA bow + Agility in a slot comparison it is only around 18% behind on one set bonus, which is still 95% of the overall value of another set.

Agility is roughly equivalent to 132% of a stamina set bonus, and 150% of a weapon damage set bonus. Considering 2, 3, and 4 set bonuses. While VDSA bow offers essentially the same weapon damage as Hundings without having to be on that bar.

We can have 100% uptime on both VDSA and VMA if desired. Thus if the VMA bow + 3 set, still outperforms 5 sets then the VDSA bow is still very desirable in many situations.


The best thing about this change is that it opens up more options and helps bring the floor up so to speak.

Master bow wont be totally useless but it will be generally outperformed. It adds 300 weapon damage against one single enemy that has uptime of 10s out of ~12s with advantage of working on backbar. Contrary to that, lets say hunding or any set that has stats as 5piece will lose the value of 5 (and 4 piece) for around 4s on backbar, but offer it on frontbar against any enemy. Plus it is undesirable on warden as it doesnt buff bear.

Now lets consider all the other sets that are preferable to have on weapon. Like war machine on warden with bear. Or some supports sets if there are any remaining after this huge NMG/sunder nerfs. Even VO means just losing the crit, 129 damage and little sustain on backbar.

Simply put in most situations it will be undesirable pick. The best situation for master bow will be purely single target DPS on spec that excels at it while having good enough sustain to not get better benefit just from using VO. Imo this kinda puts it just in the hands of NB.

Vythri

Whereabouts can I find these potential changes coming in the next update?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

Whereabouts can I find these potential changes coming in the next update?

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/89e1in/summerset_update_18_teaser_a_recap_of_last_weeks/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=elderscrollsonline

AcadianPaladin

This thread has been going for quite some time and have been following it closely its entirety. Though I’m not in the same league as the OP or many of the skilled bow/bow players here, I have learned/improved a great deal and my bow/bow stamsorc has made wonderful strides that I had previously assumed were well beyond her.

I had thought that clearing public dungeons would be her limit. I’m pleased to report now that she can (slowly) solo dolmen and rather elegantly solo over half of the alliance WBs. She just runs simple gear (Hundingsx5, Spriggansx5, Selenex1) and does not do group dungeons at this point. Most of her damage comes from Hail + Caltrops and she finds that Surge + Hurricane help allow her to safely maneuver to keep big foes inside the radius of her AoE killing zone.

Just for grins, we ran a basic target dummy test and I was amazed that she quite capably exceeded 15K – that is a big deal for me though I know is not impressive compared to higher end players. Still – enough that she no longer feels apologetic for being a bow/bowgirl.

Don’t feel I can really contribute much to this thread except to share my appreciation for the inspiration it has and continues to provide me and my little bowgirl.

SodanTok

Vythri wrote: »

Whereabouts can I find these potential changes coming in the next update?

On top of that Lightspeedflashb14_ESO shared, I would also add there is recap on alcast site and videos with many first impressions and opinions from Gilliamtherogue. Many new changes directly or indirectly affect bow/bow builds as they float somewhere between stamina builds (gear sets, abilities) and magicka builds (range, two handed limitations, sustain)

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

This thread has been going for quite some time and have been following it closely its entirety. Though I’m not in the same league as the OP or many of the skilled bow/bow players here, I have learned/improved a great deal and my bow/bow stamsorc has made wonderful strides that I had previously assumed were well beyond her.

I had thought that clearing public dungeons would be her limit. I’m pleased to report now that she can (slowly) solo dolmen and rather elegantly solo over half of the alliance WBs. She just runs simple gear (Hundingsx5, Spriggansx5, Selenex1) and does not do group dungeons at this point. Most of her damage comes from Hail + Caltrops and she finds that Surge + Hurricane help allow her to safely maneuver to keep big foes inside the radius of her AoE killing zone.

Just for grins, we ran a basic target dummy test and I was amazed that she quite capably exceeded 15K – that is a big deal for me though I know is not impressive compared to higher end players. Still – enough that she no longer feels apologetic for being a bow/bowgirl.

Don’t feel I can really contribute much to this thread except to share my appreciation for the inspiration it has and continues to provide me and my little bowgirl.

Year ago most people thought 15-20k DPS was maximum bow is capable You are on good way if you can do it now, long before starting to even push for endgame.

Violynne

For XBox players, allow me some advice: Get the Elite controller, if you can.

Why? Well, here are two of the biggest reasons:

1) You can customize the joystick and trigger inputs, which basically means you can create hair triggers by adjusting the reaction time to fit your needs. I currently have mine set at 25%, and it's getting smaller over time.

The basic controller is fixed at 50%, which is why it feels you have to squeeze it all the way to get anything out of it.

Hair triggers, baby.

2) Underside paddles. Frustrated you have to sacrifice movement for weapon swap? Yeah, so was I. The average second it takes to remove the thumb, hopefully hit the proper point of the DPad, and return the thumb makes AC tediously difficult.

Fix this by mapping one of the 4 paddles (you don't need to use them all - I only use 2) to DPad + L means you can swap weapons while you move. Eat it, Sony players.

You can map any button to a paddle, making it your choice to customize. No macros, sadly, but this is more than enough. (I use my second paddle mapped to LT, so I simply squeeze my thumb + paddle and instant dodge roll).

If you intend to try this Bow/Bow build, the Elite controller will make it better, especially when bow swapping.

Ta!

JobooAGS

Kinda wonder how pve bow builds will be like...

SodanTok

JobooAGS wrote: »

Kinda wonder how pve bow builds will be like...

Without testing anything or seeing any ability (like psijic) perform? More damage from light attacks and less damage from heavy attacks means everyone has to be redguard with VO. Obviously everyone will use monster set which will still favor sustain and range of stormfist (but velidreth will have better place). And given loss of penetration 2nd set will probably be always TFS unless sharpened/lover will be more beneficial now. If that happens then it is War Machine on warden, Hunding or even Acuity on everyone else (possibly automaton on stamsorc)

JobooAGS

SodanTok wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Kinda wonder how pve bow builds will be like...

Without testing anything or seeing any ability (like psijic) perform? More damage from light attacks and less damage from heavy attacks means everyone has to be redguard with VO. Obviously everyone will use monster set which will still favor sustain and range of stormfist (but velidreth will have better place). And given loss of penetration 2nd set will probably be always TFS unless sharpened/lover will be more beneficial now. If that happens then it is War Machine on warden, Hunding or even Acuity on everyone else (possibly automaton on stamsorc)

In the case for warden, would it be wm and acuity/hundings?

SodanTok

JobooAGS wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Kinda wonder how pve bow builds will be like...

Without testing anything or seeing any ability (like psijic) perform? More damage from light attacks and less damage from heavy attacks means everyone has to be redguard with VO. Obviously everyone will use monster set which will still favor sustain and range of stormfist (but velidreth will have better place). And given loss of penetration 2nd set will probably be always TFS unless sharpened/lover will be more beneficial now. If that happens then it is War Machine on warden, Hunding or even Acuity on everyone else (possibly automaton on stamsorc)

In the case for warden, would it be wm and acuity/hundings?

VO everywhere (maybe except NB). If they nerfed heavy attack damage bow will never want to do heavy attack ever again. WM would be preferable choice for warden, obviously that limits it to bear use.

//edit:
Totally forgot VO and WM have both minor slayer. So combining them doesnt sound as good (but could easily still be best)

Raraaku

@SodanTok

In terms of DK, does Combustion passive applies to all sources of poisoned or simply DK skills? If all, stamDK could be an interesting choice for double bow. Particularly with the possible upcoming Combustion buff in terms of sustain.

SodanTok

Raraaku wrote: »

@SodanTok

In terms of DK, does Combustion passive applies to all sources of poisoned or simply DK skills? If all, stamDK could be an interesting choice for double bow. Particularly with the possible upcoming Combustion buff in terms of sustain.

Havent tested anything but it should all. So yes, something like lethal arrow would be guaranteed proc.

Raraaku

SodanTok wrote: »

Havent tested anything but it should all. So yes, something like lethal arrow would be guaranteed proc.

I'm leveling a stamDK right now, he's the typical DW/Bow, but I'll play around with a double bow set-up and see how it feels. I don't have access to a test dummy, but if it subjectively feels like an avenue to explore, I'll post an update in this thread for better equipped/experienced players to do actual testing.

SodanTok

Raraaku wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Havent tested anything but it should all. So yes, something like lethal arrow would be guaranteed proc.

I'm leveling a stamDK right now, he's the typical DW/Bow, but I'll play around with a double bow set-up and see how it feels. I don't have access to a test dummy, but if it subjectively feels like an avenue to explore, I'll post an update in this thread for better equipped/experienced players to do actual testing.

Once we get psijic on PTS i will definitely test it. Now I dont feel like testing much stuff without the abilities i would use (the minor force and possibly the light attack buff)

Toc de Malsvi

@Raraaku
Yes Combustion does proc from Lethal Arrow and it does improve the damage slightly. Also World in Ruin improves damage from Acid Spray. The damage from Bow/Bow is quite good if you stay in melee on the DK, otherwise its only okay.

Stam DK Bow/Bow is what I do.

Raraaku

Does toxic barrage also apply the poisoned status or is it just poison DoT? And does the damage increase on poison injection occur after an enemy's health falls below 50% or does it need to be cast once their health has fallen below 50%?

Single target damage is great AoE seems a bit limited. I am interested in testing empowering chains with the new empower changes along with chains granting two charges of empower as well.

Toc de Malsvi

Raraaku wrote: »

Does toxic barrage also apply the poisoned status or is it just poison DoT? And does the damage increase on poison injection occur after an enemy's health falls below 50% or does it need to be cast once their health has fallen below 50%?

Single target damage is great AoE seems a bit limited. I am interested in testing empowering chains with the new empower changes along with chains granting two charges of empower as well.

I believe Toxic Barrage has the chance of applying the poison status effect. However Lethal Arrow will apply the poison status effect 100% of the time unless they are immune or have a ward.

Poison Injection begins increasing damage at <50% health, it only begins, the max damage improvement isn't until <15%. Chain's is far too expensive for consistent use on a stam DK, not unless you sacrifice damage for more magicka sustain.