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Soul Assault needs counterplay
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@TheDoomsdayMonster
I don't think you really understand what the problem is.
It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.
Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.
If something isn't working the one can live with it or adapt.
Everyone who has found solid builds for their play style has changed their build and approach until they found what works.@TheDoomsdayMonster
I don't think you really understand what the problem is.
It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.
If a build allows you to face anything without having to make compromises and without having to change playstyles and adapting to whatever you are fighting, then *that* would be a problem, in my opinion.
And you aren't forced to adapt. You can also choose to simply accept that a build which goes balls-out offense without taking defensive measures is going to have vulnerabilities.
You completely missed the point. Yes all builds should have vulnerabilities and make sacrifices so they can adapt. Its not about facing anything without compromises. That was never the point. The point is to actually have a way to face something through compromises and sacrifices that doesnt involve changing your entire playstyle. As the title says, it needs counterplay. Sorry but saying that the counter is to reroll is completely idiotic.
By definition adapting to something would be change so the comment is contradictory. In the case of this subject it would sometimes require a change in playstyle.
The comment this quote was in reply to never suggested a change of an entire playstyle.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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I am not talking about the odd medium armor build that plays with 9k magicka and zero regen and complains about not having magicka. Normal medium armor builds already run with shackle, tri stat food, gold food even atro mundus etc to have utilities such as cloak which i did consider a "counter" right? But mist form goes well beyond than simply getting a little more magicka.
If you are playing a magicka sorc with 9k magicka stamina and no adequate stam regen dont complain why u run out stamina.
But playing a stam build with 9K magicka and no adequate magicka regen, then complaining about not having enough magicka for mist form is cool.
Gotcha."With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc."
Why don't you apply that logic to "i don't have enough magicka to use mistform", mmm?
My shacklebreaker-wearing stamina werewolf has 18000 magicka. If you are seriously claiming that you are unable to use mistform once in a blue moon(SA can't be exactly spammed) with that, and possibly even atro mundus, then you need to work on your resouce management skills.
Your werewolf build has a lot of magicka to be able to heal in WW form. It synergizes fine and its part of ur build and it also has no other magicka abilities to spend that magicka on. Again ur comparison makes zero sense.
If you seriously cant see the issue between comparing mist form on a medium armor build with a little stam sustain on a magicka build to be able to cc break and throwing a dodge roll in the mix then i seriously dont know what to say to you.
Thanks for conveniently ignoring everything else i said tho. You are just making comparisons that make zero sense and conveniently ignoring everything that doesnt suit ur arguments.Edited by pieratsos on November 25, 2017 5:08PM3 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you seriously cant see the issue between comparing mist form on a medium armor build with a little stam sustain on a magicka build to be able to cc break and throwing a dodge roll in the mix then i seriously dont know what to say to you.
You will need to use dodge roll against incap more often than you will need to use mist form against soul assault(purely by the virtue of incap being cheaper than soul assault). So yes, i don't see the issue.
If you claim a magicka build can get enough stamina to dodge incaps, you have no leg to stand on suggesting a stamina build cannot get enough magicka to use mist against soul assaults.3 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Even when you build enough magica and magic regen to use mist form you cant use mist form because you than can't use any other magic ability which you actually need.
If you are playing a magicka sorc with 9k magicka stamina and no adequate stam regen dont complain why u run out stamina.
But playing a stam build with 9K magicka and no adequate magicka regen, then complaining about not having enough magicka for mist form is cool.
Gotcha."With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc."
Why don't you apply that logic to "i don't have enough magicka to use mistform", mmm?
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭By definition adapting to something would be change so the comment is contradictory. In the case of this subject it would sometimes require a change in playstyle.
The comment this quote was in reply to never suggested a change of an entire playstyle.
So you are saying that every single ability and set in the game is balanced because you can just play something else. Ok i get it now. So the counter to SA is stop playing a "rogue" type of character. And the counter to shieldbreaker is stop playing sorc.
This is why we cant have nice things.
And no, adapt doesnt mean changing ur entire playstyle. If you are forced to change ur entire playstyle or even reroll then it means that you cant adapt.Edited by pieratsos on November 25, 2017 5:24PM1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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Even when you build enough magica and magic regen to use mist form you cant use mist form because you than can't use any other magic ability which you actually need.
If you are playing a magicka sorc with 9k magicka stamina and no adequate stam regen dont complain why u run out stamina.
But playing a stam build with 9K magicka and no adequate magicka regen, then complaining about not having enough magicka for mist form is cool.
Gotcha."With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc."
Why don't you apply that logic to "i don't have enough magicka to use mistform", mmm?
Then build enough magicka and magic regen to be able to use mistform AND the other magic abilities you need.
My stamina build has 18000 magicka available. That's plenty to keep a portion of it in reserve for countering SA. Remember you only need to use mistform against SA, which is an ultimate and needs to be charged, so not all that often.Edited by Sharee on November 25, 2017 5:36PM0 -
Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭Btw the 9k stamina on a Magicka based character is just an example of tilting a character so heavily in one direction (ie damage) that you can't defend against some attacks appropriately. There's a difference between my two heavy chudan stamblade with shadow ward CP and points into thick-skinned, 25k health, and my bow ganking NB that maxes out sneak and speed and wears full medium, barely 20k health.
Also pots. Everyone in the game has access to invisibility pots. Which breaks Los and ergo soul assault's channel.Terethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile1 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Shackle bone pirate atro mundus I have 13k-14k magica and 1200 magic regen.Only magic ability you have to use is igneous Sheilds so yea you can afford it.My stamplar,stamsorc and stamblade has way to much magic needs to use it.
Even when you build enough magica and magic regen to use mist form you cant use mist form because you than can't use any other magic ability which you actually need.
If you are playing a magicka sorc with 9k magicka stamina and no adequate stam regen dont complain why u run out stamina.
But playing a stam build with 9K magicka and no adequate magicka regen, then complaining about not having enough magicka for mist form is cool.
Gotcha."With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc."
Why don't you apply that logic to "i don't have enough magicka to use mistform", mmm?
Then build enough magicka and magic regen to be able to use mistform AND the other magic abilities you need.
My stamina build has 18000 magicka available. That's plenty to keep a portion of it in reserve for countering SA. Remember you only need to use mistform against SA, which is an ultimate and needs to be charged, so not all that often.
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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Shackle bone pirate atro mundus I have 13k-14k magica and 1200 magic regen.Only magic ability you have to use is igneous Sheilds so yea you can afford it.My stamplar,stamsorc and stamblade has way to much magic needs to use it.
Even when you build enough magica and magic regen to use mist form you cant use mist form because you than can't use any other magic ability which you actually need.
If you are playing a magicka sorc with 9k magicka stamina and no adequate stam regen dont complain why u run out stamina.
But playing a stam build with 9K magicka and no adequate magicka regen, then complaining about not having enough magicka for mist form is cool.
Gotcha."With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc."
Why don't you apply that logic to "i don't have enough magicka to use mistform", mmm?
Then build enough magicka and magic regen to be able to use mistform AND the other magic abilities you need.
My stamina build has 18000 magicka available. That's plenty to keep a portion of it in reserve for countering SA. Remember you only need to use mistform against SA, which is an ultimate and needs to be charged, so not all that often.
If the particular equipment you wear is insufficient for your magicka needs (and using mistform to counter SA should be part of those needs, if you want to survive it) then wear something else.
I don't for a second buy the claim that it is absolutely impossible for you to afford spending 4k magicka once per the time period your enemy takes to charge his soul assault.Edited by Sharee on November 25, 2017 6:09PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@TheDoomsdayMonster
I don't think you really understand what the problem is.
It isn't that people can't adapt, it is that they're forced to adapt and change their playstyles to something that isn't enjoyable to them.
Now, personally I do think it's more of a medium armor issue than Soul Assault specifically, but telling people to "adapt" doesn't really help - it just creates more meta tank builds and that's something nobody wants.
If something isn't working the one can live with it or adapt.
Everyone who has found solid builds for their play style has changed their build and approach until they found what works.
Again, not being able to "adapt" isn't the problem.
The problem is being forced to adapt and change the entire playstyle.
Big, big difference.
As it stands, I prefer to play my high damage "gap closer in, CC whip whip dead, kill next guy" magicka DK that can also survive with billion heals & healing ward, rather than a high damage stamblade that kills one guy and then dies because Vigor doesn't outheal [snip] and everything ignores dodge roll.
I'd love to play the game the way I've enjoyed playing it since 2014 on a stamblade, but it's just not an option at the moment due to poor game balance.
And sure, I can "live with it", I can "adapt" and play a boring meta tankblade, but I can also voice my concerns and issues with the game here in the forums and hope they change it for the better so that there's more viable playstyles out there for people to enjoy.Edited by DDuke on November 25, 2017 6:24PM2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭A purpose of balance is to provide a wide variety of viable builds and playstyles. Mechanics, that hardcounter certain builds and/or playstyles and force you into very few aviable options in order to be able to handle those mechanics, limit diversity and are therefore not beneficial for a balanced game. Soul Assault is one of those hardcounter mechanics.
While i sometimes love to use it for fast kills against certain players, who might be quite annoying otherwise, i don't think it is a balanced skill and changes like making it interruptable or reducing the amount of damage ticks (while keeping overall dmg and undodgeability) seem reasonable to me. It would increase counterplay, while still being very strong with the right setup or against players that simply don't know how to counter it.Metemsycosis wrote: »
Also pots. Everyone in the game has access to invisibility pots. Which breaks Los and ergo soul assault's channel.
You won't always have an invis pot ready, when someone starts soul assaulting you, and even if you use one, you will take plenty of dmg during the first 2 seconds, so pots aren't a very good counter.
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Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can run mist if you're a stamina build, especially in small group play. But there is no room to that on a full squish dps solo build. Shackle with jewels of misrule with tripots will let any medium build use mist and thier other magicka dumps.
It's a trade few make. I've found, personally, that i am aided by the extra sustain and ability freedom just as much as I'm hindered by the damage loss. So it comes down to play style and objectives for me.
Just carry your gear on your characters so you can adjust on the fly. If you're getting wrecked by a certain group/ person using xyz skills bc you are going after countering objectives don't avoid them, try and counter them... even changing skills as needed.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Brutusmax1mus wrote: »You can run mist if you're a stamina build, especially in small group play. But there is no room to that on a full squish dps solo build. Shackle with jewels of misrule with tripots will let any medium build use mist and thier other magicka dumps.
It's a trade few make. I've found, personally, that i am aided by the extra sustain and ability freedom just as much as I'm hindered by the damage loss. So it comes down to play style and objectives for me.
Just carry your gear on your characters so you can adjust on the fly. If you're getting wrecked by a certain group/ person using xyz skills bc you are going after countering objectives don't avoid them, try and counter them... even changing skills as needed.
Pssh only punks change their builds! Lol I've thought about it, way too lazy to do that. If I'm gonna get stomped, stomped I shall be0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Using mistform isn't just about losing sustain or damage by investing more into magicka. It forces you to give up a valuabe bar slot. You have to trade something that is always useful for something that is only useful in a few situations, which will make your build overall worse.
Counterbuilding isn't really an option most of the time, because quite often you don't know what to expect, when you approach some enemy(s) or when you are getting attacked and you can't change stuff mid combat (luckily). Aside from this winning fights should be more about outplaying than outbuilding ...6 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you seriously cant see the issue between comparing mist form on a medium armor build with a little stam sustain on a magicka build to be able to cc break and throwing a dodge roll in the mix then i seriously dont know what to say to you.
You will need to use dodge roll against incap more often than you will need to use mist form against soul assault(purely by the virtue of incap being cheaper than soul assault). So yes, i don't see the issue.
If you claim a magicka build can get enough stamina to dodge incaps, you have no leg to stand on suggesting a stamina build cannot get enough magicka to use mist against soul assaults.
Dodge roll/cc break are not restricted for countering just one ability that defies basic game design. They are mechanics required in prety much every single build if u want to do good. They can have their cost decreased through cp and they dont take a bar space. And u can devote ur entire stamina for those. Your example is nowhere near close to that.
If u want to compare mist form with something then the proper example would be something like running a sorc with heavy armor and no shields to combat shieldbreaker or like @ak_pvp said putting shieldbreaker on a magicka build to combat shields. Both examples are stupid and make zero sense. Like i told you. You cant achieve balance under niche case scenarios. Everything can be broken and balanced at the same time under those circumstances.
All types of abilities have a specific design. They were designed that way for a reason. Most abilities, sets, mechanics or whatever that ignore that design, were a subject of controversy cause they create multiple issues.
At this point im just repeating myself over and over again. I really cant make it more simple for you to understand.2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
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If u want to compare mist form with something then the proper example would be....
I am not comparing it, i am simply reacting to your claim that a magicka build can easily afford the cost of dodge rolling to avoid an incap, because, as you said yourself, "With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc. ". All true.
However, for the same reasons, neither is there an excuse not to have enough magicka for mist. Because what you listed applies both to magicka and to stamina builds.
Please note that i am not comparing dodge roll with mist, rather i am comparing the ease by which a build that does not primarily use the resource needed for either can obtain it.
Edited by Sharee on November 25, 2017 7:54PM0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Using mistform isn't just about losing sustain or damage by investing more into magicka. It forces you to give up a valuabe bar slot. You have to trade something that is always useful for something that is only useful in a few situations, which will make your build overall worse.
Counterbuilding isn't really an option most of the time, because quite often you don't know what to expect, when you approach some enemy(s) or when you are getting attacked and you can't change stuff mid combat (luckily). Aside from this winning fights should be more about outplaying than outbuilding ...
You play with skills though. Building so you can use those skills to out play is what this game is...
Thats why people complain, they don't agree with asymmetrical balance and think thier build should be able to do it all.Edited by Brutusmax1mus on November 25, 2017 8:53PM3 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
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If u want to compare mist form with something then the proper example would be....
I am not comparing it, i am simply reacting to your claim that a magicka build can easily afford the cost of dodge rolling to avoid an incap, because, as you said yourself, "With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc. ". All true.
However, for the same reasons, neither is there an excuse not to have enough magicka for mist. Because what you listed applies both to magicka and to stamina builds.
Please note that i am not comparing dodge roll with mist, rather i am comparing the ease by which a build that does not primarily use the resource needed for either can obtain it.
Building for mag regen on a stam character is different than a mag building for stamina imo though. Its more wasteful.1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »
If u want to compare mist form with something then the proper example would be....
I am not comparing it, i am simply reacting to your claim that a magicka build can easily afford the cost of dodge rolling to avoid an incap, because, as you said yourself, "With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc. ". All true.
However, for the same reasons, neither is there an excuse not to have enough magicka for mist. Because what you listed applies both to magicka and to stamina builds.
Please note that i am not comparing dodge roll with mist, rather i am comparing the ease by which a build that does not primarily use the resource needed for either can obtain it.
Building for mag regen on a stam character is different than a mag building for stamina imo though. Its more wasteful.
<shrug> Its a matter of opinion. Its not like that extra magicka is going to be useless. Just read the previous posts about how they need all the magicka they have for utilities, with none to spare for mist. Not to mention, mist is useful for more than just countering SA - entering a hot breach, escaping roots when you need to save stamina, not to mention EOTS stacks running you over at mach 5...3 -
Ankael07✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If Soul Assault's line of sight mechanic worked like Wrecking Blow (walking through the caster cancelling the skill) every stamina player would have a proper way to counter.
Even if you get caught from afar you can just gap-close (since it ignores snares) and roll dodge through the enemy immediately.
Edited by Ankael07 on November 25, 2017 9:28PMIf you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.2 -
Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭Exactly. Not only that but there are sets that can get any stambased char up over 40k max stamina. Even at half staff that's plenty enough to not only recover but counter attack. Tbh I don't understand this thread very well.A purpose of balance is to provide a wide variety of viable builds and playstyles. Mechanics, that hardcounter certain builds and/or playstyles and force you into very few aviable options in order to be able to handle those mechanics, limit diversity and are therefore not beneficial for a balanced game. Soul Assault is one of those hardcounter mechanics.
While i sometimes love to use it for fast kills against certain players, who might be quite annoying otherwise, i don't think it is a balanced skill and changes like making it interruptable or reducing the amount of damage ticks (while keeping overall dmg and undodgeability) seem reasonable to me. It would increase counterplay, while still being very strong with the right setup or against players that simply don't know how to counter it.Metemsycosis wrote: »
Also pots. Everyone in the game has access to invisibility pots. Which breaks Los and ergo soul assault's channel.
You won't always have an invis pot ready, when someone starts soul assaulting you, and even if you use one, you will take plenty of dmg during the first 2 seconds, so pots aren't a very good counter.
You'd only take that damage if you're hard cc'd or just standing there. Not LOSing not blocking. Not healing. Not misting. Not applying a fierce counter burst. Be realistic. If you get caught with ALL your defenses down you think you should be able to survive? Really tho?Terethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile1 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »I hate mist form
FTFYMagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If Soul Assault's line of sight mechanic worked like Wrecking Blow (walking through the caster cancelling the skill) every stamina player would have a proper way to counter.
Even if you get caught from afar you can just gap-close (since it ignores snares) and roll dodge through the enemy immediately.
That gave me an idea.
Would be cool if Soul Assault was a targeted AoE beam moving where your character is facing - that way someone dodge rolling could avoid some ticks of it, depending on how fast Soul Assault user reacts & changes the beam direction.
That would also make it a better ulti in 1vX fights.
It'd be kinda like Li Ming's Disintegrate, if anyone is familiar with HotS.2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
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If u want to compare mist form with something then the proper example would be....
I am not comparing it, i am simply reacting to your claim that a magicka build can easily afford the cost of dodge rolling to avoid an incap, because, as you said yourself, "With the current state of the game, CP and sets like amberplasm and shacklebreaker there is no excuse to run out of stamina after one roll and one cc. ". All true.
However, for the same reasons, neither is there an excuse not to have enough magicka for mist. Because what you listed applies both to magicka and to stamina builds.
Please note that i am not comparing dodge roll with mist, rather i am comparing the ease by which a build that does not primarily use the resource needed for either can obtain it.
Yes if mist form had actually good synergy and it was the only thing that costs magicka and it wasnt a waste of slot besides using it against SA and maybe destro ult and it wasnt coming with other downsides too then u would have a point. Those things do apply for dodge roll on a magicka build and for the heal of ur werewolf. They do not apply in the case of mist form. Thats the big difference.
And im not even arguing about nerfing it and make it useless (which i admit is usually the way ZOS handles those things). Its functionality should stay the same. Just some small tweaks to make it more skill based both offensively and defensively.
Ill just leave it to this.A purpose of balance is to provide a wide variety of viable builds and playstyles. Mechanics, that hardcounter certain builds and/or playstyles and force you into very few aviable options in order to be able to handle those mechanics, limit diversity and are therefore not beneficial for a balanced game. Soul Assault is one of those hardcounter mechanics.
And thiswinning fights should be more about outplaying than outbuilding ...Edited by pieratsos on November 26, 2017 1:10AM2 -
UppGRAYxDD✭✭✭✭✭
✭Soo much salt...I love this thread"Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As a theory crafter, I think your build should be at least, if not more, 50% of the deciding factor between wins and losses.2 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭Loving this ability. Especially when i bump into trolling Miat user.1v1 Win/Loss Record in PvP.
1 Wins - 392 Losses (guy was AFK)1 -
Baconlad✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree, i think the build absolutely matters as much as skill. It doesnt replace skill, you give a skilled player a *** build and he'll make it work, give him a BAMF build and he'll wreck face 1v1.
Skill setup goes along with the build, bad skill choice for certain fights means your at a dissadvantage. Bring soul assault into a fight against a tanky magplar and he will laugh histerically no matter the tooltip value. Bring it into a fight with a stamina glass canon medium user and you will prove very hard to deal with.
Skill, gear choice, skill setup and enemy selection goes a LONG way in this game5