PVE leaderboards should be removed

mirta000b16_ESO

It's very apparent from the vampirism thread that players feel forced into specific races, or conditions just to be at max possible optimization to get on that leaderboard. Without a leaderboard worlds first races would still happen, however I believe that it would help to alleviate the toxicity between anyone below that level. FFXIV and GW2 avoided putting in leaderboards for PVE environment for this very reason. Everyone should get the same rewards, regardless how fast they finished the content as long as they finished it.

PvP is the competitive part of an MMO. There's no need for players to be experiencing toxicity when they're playing the PVE part of the game.

EDIT: a lot of answers in this thread very well prove the level of toxicity that this community has sunk to.

Turelus

If you remove the leaderboards players will still min/max because that's just how some players are. They will always be drawn to the most optimal way to play the game.

Also the leaderboards don't give anything which can't be achieved via normal gameplay, so it's not like groups HAVE to be on them to get any items, they just have one more selection of items a week without needing to run the content.

You can also get the same rewards no matter how long a trial takes you, everything in the game can be done without perfectly optimised characters it just takes longer and you'll need better group play and patience as you'll face more of the mechanics than high DPS groups.

Edit for typos

Voxicity

Yeah, remove the little remaining part of content for competitive PvE players so not just half of them quit the game, but all of them

mirta000b16_ESO

Voxicity wrote: »

Yeah, remove the little remaining part of content for competitive PvE players so not just half of them quit the game, but all of them

Funny considering that a lot of games with hard raid content have no leaderboards and somehow their hardcore population does not go running away.

Feanor

Participation trophies for everyone! Let’s just all meet at a Tavern and RP!

Voxicity

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

Yeah, remove the little remaining part of content for competitive PvE players so not just half of them quit the game, but all of them

Funny considering that a lot of games with hard raid content have no leaderboards and somehow their hardcore population does not go running away.

Probably because there are other reasons to run the content in those games. Like rare mount drops and stuff. ESO doesn't have that, except the latest trial dropping a polymorph

LadyNalcarya

Well, first of all "I dont like that, so it must be removed from the game" IS toxic and selfish approach. For example, if someone doesnt like you, does that mean that your account should be removed from the game? If you think that trial guilds and leaderboard stuff arent for you, then dont join them. You can just disable leaderboard notifications and pretend they dont exist.
As for performance... As you probably know, devs drastically nerfed all sources of sustain in Morrowind patch, so that every bit of extra recovery helps a lot. Sustain isnt a problem for optimized trial groups, but for average players it is. Thats why vampirism became a must.

P.S. If you actually played ESO pvp, you'd know how competitive it is... Ahem. Especially those BG leaderboards.

makreth

While I understand and agree with the OP that the leaderboards tend to lead to toxic behaviour and competition, I wouldn't go there as to remove it from the game. Eso as it is, is a casual game, attracts all kinds of ages out there. As we know, young people tend to be more hardcorde, competitive and vivid on those matters so there should be something like that in the game. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. It depends on the community that you choose to be part of.

code65536

ROTFL

Removing ways to measure how well you do doesn't prevent people from wanting to do something better and faster. Because nobody wants to take 2 hours clearing something that can be done in 20 minutes.

LadyNalcarya

makreth wrote: »

While I understand and agree with the OP that the leaderboards tend to lead to toxic behaviour and competition,

Its actually hilarious that in ESO group finder pugs are much more toxic than the majority of raiding groups.
I've only met a few toxic players that were actually good in this game. Most of them just couldnt pull their weight and blamed others...

P.S. Also, competition isnt a bad thing.

Alcast

Removing LBs would defo not solve your issue. People would still boot non optimal races if they are going for hardmode etc. Most raidleaders overestimate importance of races tho.

Good player with non optimal setup > newbie with optimal setup

Most of times raids fail bc raidleaders are not experienced/prepared enough.

mirta000b16_ESO

Voxicity wrote: »

Probably because there are other reasons to run the content in those games. Like rare mount drops and stuff. ESO doesn't have that, except the latest trial dropping a polymorph

There's very rarely a mount. Most of the time hardcore guilds get their gear from new content in the first 2 out of 6 months that that content will be up. To alleviate this issue developers in FFXIV started to add an ultra mega hardcore turn 3 months into the 6 month raid tier in order to keep the players engaged. GW2 simply drops a raid once every 2 years and leaves it at that.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Well, first of all "I dont like that, so it must be removed from the game" IS toxic and selfish approach. For example, if someone doesnt like you, does that mean that your account should be removed from the game? If you think that trial guilds and leaderboard stuff arent for you, then dont join them. You can just disable leaderboard notifications and pretend they dont exist.
As for performance... As you probably know, devs drastically nerfed all sources of sustain in Morrowind patch, so that every bit of extra recovery helps a lot. Sustain isnt a problem for optimized trial groups, but for average players it is. Thats why vampirism became a must.

P.S. If you actually played ESO pvp, you'd know how competitive it is... Ahem. Especially those BG leaderboards.

I don't see why someone should threaten the looks of specific things (Such as vampirism) because they decided to be a vampire purely for optimization sakes. As such, I would say, perhaps we should lessen the competition on the PVE side, so that these people don't leak their builds into regular-vet dungeons and normal trials going "EVERYONE must run this and we all must be unhappy about having to run this!".

PvP is highly competitive and toxic, however PvP rarely leaks outside of their own little boundaries in all MMOs that I've played. PvP players will be very passionate about arguing about balance, but they rarely are trying to whine about appearance, or participate in such PVE threads.

Feanor wrote: »

Participation trophies for everyone! Let’s just all meet at a Tavern and RP!

I'm not telling them to nerf Vet content. I'm simply stating that switching off some competitive parts, such as leaderboards, would probably improve the overall community of the game.

Turelus

Alcast wrote: »

Ggood player with non optimal setup > newbie with optimal race.

And thus the lord hast spoken, let his word be gospel and taken forth to the masses.

Turelus

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't see why someone should threaten the looks of specific things (Such as vampirism) because they decided to be a vampire purely for optimization sakes. As such, I would say, perhaps we should lessen the competition on the PVE side, so that these people don't leak their builds into regular-vet dungeons and normal trials going "EVERYONE must run this and we all must be unhappy about having to run this!".

Maybe the issue is with the players in question, and not the system.
Just because some players act like morons doesn't mean the entire community shouldn't be allowed competitive PvE. If we're going to start removing game features based on how a small subset of the playerbase acts we're not going to have much of a game left.

Feanor

As @Alcast pointed out already it wouldn’t improve the community. Because if you suck people are going to point it out, regardless if you’re a Nord or a High Elf.

DRXHarbinger

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

It's very apparent from the vampirism thread that players feel forced into specific races, or conditions just to be at max possible optimization to get on that leaderboard. Without a leaderboard worlds first races would still happen, however I believe that it would help to alleviate the toxicity between anyone below that level. FFXIV and GW2 avoided putting in leaderboards for PVE environment for this very reason. Everyone should get the same rewards, regardless how fast they finished the content as long as they finished it.

PvP is the competitive part of an MMO. There's no need for players to be experiencing toxicity when they're playing the PVE part of the game.

Not true at all. Never had a problem getting on leaderboards, My Sorc is Dunmer, My NB a Breton. Race choice provides very very little gains ( exception being an Argonian Tank) Vampirism isn't strictly needed either for PVE, the extra regen... if that's what you mean post morrowind is negligible and sustain is now destroyed imo and makes barely any difference.

And removing rewards achieves nothing. There are incentives for running them so what do you propose they do with them? Just send a reward for the unworthy out and reward your participation for taking 3hrs to complete VAA with a 3 digit score?

mirta000b16_ESO

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

And removing rewards achieves nothing. There are incentives for running them so what do you propose they do with them? Just send a reward for the unworthy out and reward your participation for taking 3hrs to complete VAA with a 3 digit score?

Well the extra reward is your time. If someone beats a dungeon in 5 hours, I don't see why they should be rewarded any less than the person that took 20 minutes. The only difference is that one player had skill and the other had perseverance.

Turelus

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

And removing rewards achieves nothing. There are incentives for running them so what do you propose they do with them? Just send a reward for the unworthy out and reward your participation for taking 3hrs to complete VAA with a 3 digit score?

Well the extra reward is your time. If someone beats a dungeon in 5 hours, I don't see why they should be rewarded any less than the person that took 20 minutes. The only difference is that one player had skill and the other had perseverance.

They're not rewarded any less, with the exception of one mail with 1-4 gold items a week. Which if they're doing content at the speeds you say then they're already getting 15x the number of rewards from speed clears alone.

Every item drop is the same regardless of time spent.

LadyNalcarya

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

I don't see why someone should threaten the looks of specific things (Such as vampirism) because they decided to be a vampire purely for optimization sakes. As such, I would say, perhaps we should lessen the competition on the PVE side, so that these people don't leak their builds into regular-vet dungeons and normal trials going "EVERYONE must run this and we all must be unhappy about having to run this!".

PvP is highly competitive and toxic, however PvP rarely leaks outside of their own little boundaries in all MMOs that I've played. PvP players will be very passionate about arguing about balance, but they rarely are trying to whine about appearance, or participate in such PVE threads.

Well, there are people who enjoy competition. Driving them away from the game wont solve any issues.
And lets not forget that there are those who chose to be vampires because of rp reasons, and they want ESO vampirsm to be lore-friendly. Being able to hide vampirism IS a part of vampire lore in TES games (I would've linked proofs, but if you followed those threads you already know about this).

And I hope you do realize that trying to punish other players is actually toxic. Their requests about vamp appearance are lore-friendly and cant possibly affect balance or gameplay. Removal of leaderboards, on the other hand, would affect the game.
Ironically, it doesnt even adress the actual reason why people want that extra recovery.

As for "pvp players dont care about appearance"... Where did you get that?
Even in purely pvp games like LoL or even CS, cosmetic items are still a thing.

mirta000b16_ESO

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Being able to hide vampirism IS a part of vampire lore in TES games (I would've linked proofs, but if you followed those threads you already know about this).

Please link proofs.

So far in this game there's exactly one vampire that used illusion magic to hide it. If you read lore books you know that vampirism should be invisible if vampires are well fed (aka vampire level 0) and are possible as a player as well. Oblivion count vampire that I've seen mentioned once - all of his direct servants KNEW. All strangers were not allowed to meet the count personally, hence why they have never seen him.

GrigorijMalahevich

You should be removed @mirta000b16_ESO

How else will PvE players understand that they are doing something not to the limit of their abilities? That moment when you hide achievements of your competition - you stop to improve and begin stagnation.

For example:
Random player creates a Khajiit Magsorc (because he loves cats and likes magic) levels to lvl50 starts to understand various set bonuses and slowly goes begins to pay attention to various leader boards and then realizes that there is also a "competitive" part of the game and suddenly realizes that his character is not optimal... That new player will google how to properly play ESO and will probably find Mr @Alcast website and begin to gitgud.

We already have a toxic community where everyone thinks that he/she/it is the best player in the world... If you ask me, game should announce DPS/HPS after every boss fight in PvE content to the whole group without any addons.

Imho.

AzraelKrieg

mirta000b16_ESO

Valera Progib wrote: »

You should be removed @mirta000b16_ESO

How else will PvE players understand that they are doing something not to the limit of their abilities? That moment when you hide achievements of your competition - you stop to improve and begin stagnation.

For example:
Random player creates a Khajiit Magsorc (because he loves cats and likes magic) levels to lvl50 starts to understand various set bonuses and slowly goes begins to pay attention to various leader boards and then realizes that there is also a "competitive" part of the game and suddenly realizes that his character is not optimal... That new player will google how to properly play ESO and will probably find Mr @Alcast website and begin to gitgud.

We already have a toxic community where everyone thinks that he/she/it is the best player in the world... If you ask me, game should announce DPS/HPS after every boss fight in PvE content to the whole group without any addons.

Imho.

Well somehow players understood how to get better at the game in other games without having the pressure put on them to compete in leaderboards. There's a reason why Wildstar had to take out Gold/Silver/Bronze dungeon rewards. Pug groups were simply being too toxic and not playing together well simply because of the mentality of "score first, players second".

And if random player rolls a Khajiit Magsorc, the only way he will compete in said leaderboards is if he will buy a race change. "Spend money" is not a great suggestion for new players.

Turelus

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

You should be removed mirta000b16_ESO

How else will PvE players understand that they are doing something not to the limit of their abilities? That moment when you hide achievements of your competition - you stop to improve and begin stagnation.

For example:
Random player creates a Khajiit Magsorc (because he loves cats and likes magic) levels to lvl50 starts to understand various set bonuses and slowly goes begins to pay attention to various leader boards and then realizes that there is also a "competitive" part of the game and suddenly realizes that his character is not optimal... That new player will google how to properly play ESO and will probably find Mr Alcast website and begin to gitgud.

We already have a toxic community where everyone thinks that he/she/it is the best player in the world... If you ask me, game should announce DPS/HPS after every boss fight in PvE content to the whole group without any addons.

Imho.

Well somehow players understood how to get better at the game in other games without having the pressure put on them to compete in leaderboards. There's a reason why Wildstar had to take out Gold/Silver/Bronze dungeon rewards. Pug groups were simply being too toxic and not playing together well simply because of the mentality of "score first, players second".

And if random player rolls a Khajiit Magsorc, the only way he will compete in said leaderboards is if he will buy a race change. "Spend money" is not a great suggestion for new players.

Again the problem here is people, not the games.

ESO is not actively teaching people to be jerks, those are jerks who think being a jerk is cool. There are millions of people playing ESO and there are the right kind of people out there for everyone to play with.

Most of the people in the game don't give a damn what your DPS is as long as you're able to stay alive and do enough damage to clear the content. The required DPS is very easy to achieve with basic understanding of the games mechanics.

DRXHarbinger

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

And removing rewards achieves nothing. There are incentives for running them so what do you propose they do with them? Just send a reward for the unworthy out and reward your participation for taking 3hrs to complete VAA with a 3 digit score?

Well the extra reward is your time. If someone beats a dungeon in 5 hours, I don't see why they should be rewarded any less than the person that took 20 minutes. The only difference is that one player had skill and the other had perseverance.

That's like saying, Ron working at Burger King Serves 500 people a day and Moe serves 2 people a day and spends most of the day out back smoking and lol'ing at Cat videos on Youtube but both people should have an equal shot at promotion and none of these performance factors should be taken into account. Please go and join the real world.

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

Valera Progib wrote: »

You should be removed @mirta000b16_ESO

How else will PvE players understand that they are doing something not to the limit of their abilities? That moment when you hide achievements of your competition - you stop to improve and begin stagnation.

For example:
Random player creates a Khajiit Magsorc (because he loves cats and likes magic) levels to lvl50 starts to understand various set bonuses and slowly goes begins to pay attention to various leader boards and then realizes that there is also a "competitive" part of the game and suddenly realizes that his character is not optimal... That new player will google how to properly play ESO and will probably find Mr @Alcast website and begin to gitgud.

We already have a toxic community where everyone thinks that he/she/it is the best player in the world... If you ask me, game should announce DPS/HPS after every boss fight in PvE content to the whole group without any addons.

Imho.

Well somehow players understood how to get better at the game in other games without having the pressure put on them to compete in leaderboards. There's a reason why Wildstar had to take out Gold/Silver/Bronze dungeon rewards. Pug groups were simply being too toxic and not playing together well simply because of the mentality of "score first, players second".

And if random player rolls a Khajiit Magsorc, the only way he will compete in said leaderboards is if he will buy a race change. "Spend money" is not a great suggestion for new players.

I bet you 10M gold I can roll a Kaijit Magsorc and get on the leaderboards, I could spend most of the time dead and still get on there. Stop blaming race and other pointless crap for what is a simple fact that you most likely have a very poor group to run with.

LadyNalcarya

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Being able to hide vampirism IS a part of vampire lore in TES games (I would've linked proofs, but if you followed those threads you already know about this).

Please link proofs.

So far in this game there's exactly one vampire that used illusion magic to hide it. If you read lore books you know that vampirism should be invisible if vampires are well fed (aka vampire level 0) and are possible as a player as well. Oblivion count vampire that I've seen mentioned once - all of his direct servants KNEW. All strangers were not allowed to meet the count personally, hence why they have never seen him.

Gameplay mechanics =/= lore.
I mean, we know that Sybille Stentor is a vampire, but other npcs arent that sure about that (even though she has fangs and glowing eyes).
Count Verandis Ravenwatch appears as a normal altmer when you first meet him.
Its funny that you mention that vampire count. Most of nps in Skingrad only mention that he's a very private person. Of course, we can tell he's a vamp because he looks like a vamp, but then again, its a gameplay thing.
By the way, if you played Oblivion, you might remember another quest, which involves a vampire that looks like a perfectly normal altmer.
In the same game, there's a quest about half-vampire Orc, Grey Prince. If you read his father's journal, it clearly states that his orc lover didnt know about his condition until he told her about that.
Immortal Blood. Nuff said.
Thats just a few examples I can think of. If this is not a proof that well-fed vampire can sustain normal appearance, I dont know what would be.

mirta000b16_ESO

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

That's like saying, Ron working at Burger King Serves 500 people a day and Moe serves 2 people a day and spends most of the day out back smoking and lol'ing at Cat videos on Youtube but both people should have an equal shot at promotion and none of these performance factors should be taken into account. Please go and join the real world.

I have a job, so thank you, I'm very well integrated in the real world. However we're talking about a game here. Most MMOs will not give you special goodies for beating the content faster than others, outside maybe an achievement for world's first, or PvP based rewards. FFXIV, WoW, GW2, etc all major competitors to ESO do not reward you for killing a PVE boss faster than other group.

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

I bet you 10M gold I can roll a Kaijit Magsorc and get on the leaderboards, I could spend most of the time dead and still get on there. Stop blaming race and other pointless crap for what is a simple fact that you most likely have a very poor group to run with.

Oh, they might get on the leaderboard, just not the very top, because racial passives seem to be important for competition. If we reduced competition, we would reduce the importance of passives in game.

Feanor

If you ask me, game should announce DPS/HPS after every boss fight in PvE content to the whole group without any addons.

Imagine the outcry. People already can’t handle that someone sees their loot. #nooblivesmatter

DRXHarbinger

mirta000b16_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

That's like saying, Ron working at Burger King Serves 500 people a day and Moe serves 2 people a day and spends most of the day out back smoking and lol'ing at Cat videos on Youtube but both people should have an equal shot at promotion and none of these performance factors should be taken into account. Please go and join the real world.

I have a job, so thank you, I'm very well integrated in the real world. However we're talking about a game here. Most MMOs will not give you special goodies for beating the content faster than others, outside maybe an achievement for world's first, or PvP based rewards. FFXIV, WoW, GW2, etc all major competitors to ESO do not reward you for killing a PVE boss faster than other group.

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

I bet you 10M gold I can roll a Kaijit Magsorc and get on the leaderboards, I could spend most of the time dead and still get on there. Stop blaming race and other pointless crap for what is a simple fact that you most likely have a very poor group to run with.

Oh, they might get on the leaderboard, just not the very top, because racial passives seem to be important for competition. If we reduced competition, we would reduce the importance of passives in game.

Evidently not if you have no clue on how performance in pretty much anything reaps better rewards.

As for other MMO's to quote pretty much everyone at ZOS for them... This isn't every other MMO, if they are so cool and great and reward people for sucking or not... Then you are free to go and play them.

Regardless of race, YOU WILL NEVER get to the top of the leaderboard if you just plain suck at the game, You can have all the gear you desire, perfect race and whatever, if you have a trash group you will never get there. If you think race choice is going to bump your score by 100k you're in for a shock.

OP just be honest here, Did you pick a class and race you just don't like and are salty about buying a race change token or something? Hoping you whine on here will get them erased and it won't matter anymore? You have 0 argument for having leaderboards removed.

mirta000b16_ESO

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

OP just be honest here, Did you pick a class and race you just don't like and are salty about buying a race change token or something? Hoping you whine on here will get them erased and it won't matter anymore? You have 0 argument for having leaderboards removed.

I'm actually perfectly happy with my gameplay as it is.

The issue is simply just how much high and mighty attitudes I'm encountering on the forums and just how much of a difference there is in games without leaderboards. Heck those games are using add ons to upload parses online and have a "leaderboard" there and yet it still translates to a less toxic forum/ in-game environment.

Just the fact that I've gotten a few "your account should be deleted" shows what kind of hostility became acceptable here.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

We have a dude that only plays argonians and pulls 60k + dps in raid. You can play sub optimal races you just need to take the time to learn your class and rotation. @HatchetHaro were you at. Also just because leaderboards go away doesn't mean I want to spend 3 hrs in a vaa hm because we brought a bunch of baddies in.