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PVP is not easy

  • kargen27
    kargen27
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    I find PvP to be very easy. Easier than falling off a horse. Hell ya don't even have to fall off the horse as other players will knock you off. That is a service they provide.

    And once you finally get to the battle just charge in throwing attacks ever which way (you're bound to hit something) die, wait for rez then repeat. Easy as can be. I can make AP lying there dead, how much more simple do you want it?

  • KRBMMO
    KRBMMO
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    Billy2112 wrote: »
    So smasher by your perspective we could put a total noob in gear and he will #win?

    If you are in a lag situation procs will win. so it depends on how much lag a person has, lol
  • Nord_Templar
    Nord_Templar
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    Healer in PvP is almost useless, now in the game. Any cutthroat, damager, does amount of damage in 1 second, much more than you can treat.
      If you want to be successful in this game, just use the ready-made character sets made by someone.
      It's not I advise, it's I quote the advice of a professional gamers.
      Forget about the pleasure and immersion in the game. A real war is hard work, and the hope to live up to the evening.

    It is much easier to heal, sucking life out of the enemy, this is the ability of the Class NightBlade.
    Edited by Nord_Templar on October 26, 2017 3:02AM
  • ColoursYouHave
    ColoursYouHave
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    Smasherx74 wrote: »
    Smasherx74 wrote: »
    PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

    Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

    Defeatist mentality. I’ll at least agree gear matters more in this game than most others I have played but you could put some in BIS gear that has no skill and a really good player in crap gear and the better player will still win. The day everyone starts blaming gear sets on why they die is the day they should maybe reassess their own skills. Not saying you’re bad as I don’t know you and won’t judge, but I see others wit this mentality too and there is a common theme.
    PvP sucks! I have never liked PvP and hate the fact that game developers cater to them that do.

    I know right? All this PvP content over the last three years is just way too much! I wish there would be PvE oriented DLC for once! *end sarcasm*

    If you wear *** gear in PVP, even a noob can destroy you if they got really good gear. A noob in 5fps spamming biting jabs and jesus beam will absolutely murder you every time. Why? Because you literally can't kill them. That noob could be the worst player in the game, and all he has to do is spam 2 abilities. One damage and one heals. If you're really playing in *** gear and he realy has good gear, he's just going to destroy you every time no matter how much you run or how good your movement is.

    This si why I compared this game to Archeage. In that game the people with best gear have played / grinded for years or paid thousands of dollars for the character. Starting off as a noob in AA you will never get even close to top GS. You'll literally be grinding every single day just to get a little bit better GS, and then after about 3-5 years you might have a high GS relative to the top. Now you can get 3k gs (about the minimum required for end game) and play absolutely *** PERFECT but if your enemy has 8k gs, they will literally 2 shot you or just stand there while you do tons of damage and they haven't even lost a % of health.

    You know what other game is like that? ESO.... I can go duel someone right now and even if they're a GOOD if their gear isn't good enough I can just stand there typing in chat about how they suck, while I just throw some buffs and vigor myself every once in a while. That player can be a former emp and still get his ass handed to him without me having to play skillful at all. As long as I got better gear for the situation (like dueling) I will always win.

    Just because you would die to a noob with good gear doesn't mean everybody else would.

    One thing I want to point out is that claiming that gear is more important than skill is too vague of a statement to actually be meaningful. Sure, if you have somebody with all white non-set gear fight somebody with fully gold BIS gear, then gear is likely going to be a bigger factor than skill. However, there is a huge difference between not having good gear, and having gear so bad that you have to try to not have any better options. More realistically, if you want to talk about how much gear impacts performance, you want to compare "budget" gear, which anybody who wants to PVP should be able to obtain fairly easily, to BIS gear. I think I can safely say that blue crafted or overland sets are easy enough to obtain that you could reasonably use that as a baseline to compare BIS gear to. While the difference in quality of gear will have an impact, give me blue crafted sets and I'll take down a noob wearing gold BIS gear anytime.
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  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    PvP is skill when ur in ur own or with 1 or 2 guys. If ur zerging numbers and build means nothing. Proof of this is I put on random magic sets on a stam character and was getting ap and kills like nothing just follow the Zerg.

    Against an organized group no u won’t win but that strategy not gear. When ur on ur own u need to bring everything with you and fit it on ur skill bars.

    Edited by FloppyTouch on October 26, 2017 3:50AM
  • Sixty5
    Sixty5
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    I'm actually having a pretty good laugh at this thread now.

    Gear does make a difference, but not a huge one. As long as your gear is 'right' changing.to another set won't really do anything to help you.

    Case and point, here's a video from a long time ago, where I was running Black Rose, Viper and Velidreth, at a point where those sets were some of the most broken things in the game.

    If you watch that video you can tell that I am utter trash at pvp, but so are most of the people I am fighting (though the ganking helps)

    Fast forward to today, and while I wouldn't say I'm good at pvp, I've played enough to become decent. I can track CC timings, I manage buffs better and I can abuse line of sight. If I fought myself from back then now, I'd dumpster, even in what a lot of people would consider sub-optimal gear.

    If you watch someone like Kena play Magblade you can see the skill involved to kite out enemies, to time your burst and stay alive.

    In battlegrounds it is super evident when someone isn't very good at pvp, often because they sit up somewhere and spam snipe, or hard cast frags at you.

    Player skill is a huge part of pvp, and anyone who says otherwise is a zergling or a ganker
    Lord and Savior of the Association of Serious S***posters.

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  • Syrusthevirus187
    Syrusthevirus187
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    Best connection wins
  • Kahina
    Kahina
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    Best connection wins

    People will continue to think their leet skillz are the winning factor right up until the real reasons are removed and they are forced to confront their relative ineptitude.

    I play from a county where people (literally the entire ESO player base in this country, even those on the NBN) don't bother with things like VMA, as the latency makes it prohibitive. And that's before we get to PVP.

    Dead from something that happened on the server before you even got to see it on your screen. Skillz have little to do with it.

    EDIT: I'm going to spam this reality on every ESO PVP thread from here until eternity.
    Edited by Kahina on October 26, 2017 5:30AM
  • Nahtal
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    Thx all for this discussion: So The warden class is not that bad i' m now lvl it up and soon gonna play with it PVP. My experience is only healing with my templar char. So Warden class is like heal and dps :smile:

    And yes gear is important (gonna look into it when i reach my CP lvl)
    Love to crind, to sell, to explore, to heal, and to have fun.
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  • Hexquisite
    Hexquisite
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    Get into a group with a good leader, preferable with voice chat of some kind. It makes a huge difference. If you are healing a group, usually the tanks will protect you and the leader will guide everyone in this regard. Gear helps, knowing what traits and what kind..my healers wear 5 heavy and 2 light or 2 medium depending. But really just being in an organized group helps so much.

    People will think there are different ways to win pvp...some, by how many they kill.
    Me, its about controlling the map and making AP with my pals. Its about winning the campaign hopefully--but you can still make a lot of AP even if you lose.

    Don't start out in Vivec, roll a lowbie and play Kyne and learn the map and how your alt plays in different terrains, learn strategy. Learn the fast routes to run places. Where people hide in the rocks.

    Know that if you have 5 seconds to port somewhere to defend asap...you will prob get stuck in a load screen lol.

    I am currently playing stamwarden support and having a blast. I fight, but pull back and heal the group and purge if need be. Next Ill try Magwarden.
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  • Vanzen
    Vanzen
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    Get a NB

    Poison injection/Ambush/Surprise attack/Incapacitaing strike/Fear/Execute

    Cloak if it failed and run away

    Rinse and repeat

    Think you r a skilled player

    Ruin pvp
    Edited by Vanzen on October 26, 2017 7:42AM
  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Vanzen wrote: »
    Get a NB

    Ambush/Surprise attack/Incapacitaing strike/Fear/Execute

    Cloak if failed

    Rinse and repeat

    Think you r a skilled player

    Ruin pvp

    Lmao forgot come to the forums and say ur playstyle takes the most skill
  • Zbigb4life
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    Smasherx74 wrote: »
    PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

    Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

    It all started to go downhill when proc sets were introduced
  • kargen27
    kargen27
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    Healer in PvP is almost useless, now in the game. Any cutthroat, damager, does amount of damage in 1 second, much more than you can treat.
      If you want to be successful in this game, just use the ready-made character sets made by someone.
      It's not I advise, it's I quote the advice of a professional gamers.
      Forget about the pleasure and immersion in the game. A real war is hard work, and the hope to live up to the evening.

    It is much easier to heal, sucking life out of the enemy, this is the ability of the Class NightBlade.

    That is simply bad advice. A good healer most certainly can make a difference in many aspects of PvP play. One example, put a battering ram on a door and a good healer can keep everybody alive through all kinds of oils and other siege attacks. Another, stacking the flag to take the keep a good healer means other players can stay on that flag making sure it flips. If you are in a group of three players or more a good healer can really make a difference in the outcome of the battle.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Comparing potatoes with good players doesnt prove that its all about skill. You dont need skill to kill potatoes. Of course the good player will win. The problems with skill become evident when the fights are much closer and gear, stupid abilities/mechanics play a much bigger role and sometimes dictating the outcome of fights
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Zbigb4life wrote: »
    Smasherx74 wrote: »
    PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

    Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

    It all started to go downhill when proc sets were introduced

    I´ve been playing this game for 2,5 years now....and as far as I can remember proc-sets has always been apart of the game. I´ve never felt that the game have went "downhill"
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  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    Oh gosh. So many potatoes in this thread it's entertaining.
    I feel bad for the posters here who advise all you potatoes only to be shot down by your refusal to take in the advice in the first place and improve yourselves in PvP and by the looks of it, you don't really know how to PvP at all, not by the slightest margin.

    So many hyperbolic potato statements here. :D
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    There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki
  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    Oh gosh. So many potatoes in this thread it's entertaining.
    I feel bad for the posters here who advise all you potatoes only to be shot down by your refusal to take in the advice in the first place and improve yourselves in PvP and by the looks of it, you don't really know how to PvP at all, not by the slightest margin.

    So many hyperbolic potato statements here. :D

    Pvers trying to down play pvp as a joke even though they don’t play a second of it and have no understanding of how to play. They hate pvp bc they die fast and think it’s 100% gear. If that was true why don’t they use these magical sets that can kill anyone in a second flat.

    Gear helps set up helps understanding ur class and skills and other classes skills and abilities is way more important and takes time.
  • kargen27
    kargen27
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    Oh gosh. So many potatoes in this thread it's entertaining.
    I feel bad for the posters here who advise all you potatoes only to be shot down by your refusal to take in the advice in the first place and improve yourselves in PvP and by the looks of it, you don't really know how to PvP at all, not by the slightest margin.

    So many hyperbolic potato statements here. :D

    Thanks for helping. Your amazing insight is a blessing for us all!

    I am inspired.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Is pvp that part of the game where I'm fighting Daedra or a delve boss, then my screen fills with the word "cliff racer" and then I am back at a wayshrine? Or is it the part where I follow a large group when they go by, spam poison injection and get stuff in the mail? I have no idea what's happening when taking a castle and if I stray from the group, my screen again fills with the word "cliff racer" and I'm spawning off in the distance. Then somehow, I still get stuff in the mail. Last time 19.5k showed up almost a week later. I liked that, but didn't earn it. I got credit for killing 12 people but I have no idea which ones or how that was measured. Zero skill was involved in those killings. FWIW, I do help with the guards, aka the pve part.

    I'm not trying to derail the real topic here, I'm just pointing out that there is a huge variable here that might make people think they are better than they are. If you want pvp with skill, a starting point would be to stop filling cyrodil with lambs for the slaughter who don't actually pvp. It's not fun for us and how are you guys/gals going to measure and develop skills when the player you're killing isn't actually playing the same game?

    If this is an honest post (I don't mean to be insulting, but this thread broke my sarcasm meter, so I honestly can't tell), I do want to address this, because one of the things I most remember about starting to PVP was how opaque and confusing it was at the beginning. Cyrodiil just plain works differently than anywhere else in Tamriel, and the tutorial quests help a little, but not a lot. Experience is the best teacher, and in PVP, that experience often comes from tagging along with a zerg or organized raid, or from the many, many brutal buttkickings administered by the enemy faction.

    I'm not going to talk about this from the perspective of a skilled PVP player. I'm going to talk from the perspective of an experienced PVPer who is aware of how much I have grown from the timid PVEer who can to Cyrodiil to get skyshards and fish and how much I still have to learn.

    A really good starting reference for what is going on in PVP is Joy_Division's Guide to the Midyear Mayhem Event. Practically everything I didn't know I needed to know when I started to PVP in Cyrodiil is in this guide: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360956/joy-s-advice-for-midyear-mayhem-event/p1

    As for your experience in PVP, PVP is player versus player and because Cyrodiil is a vast and varied zone, that can be anywhere from fighting in delves against players trying to get skyshards or delve bosses, capturing and defending keeps, taking resources, or open field fighting. As you continue to PVP you'll find your own niche with what parts you like the best.

    In my experience when I first started, there was absolutely safety in numbers. Like you mentioned, getting away from the group meant nigh-certain death, because I lacked the knowledge, experience, and player skill to keep myself safe or even seriously defend myself. I didn't know what worked, I didn't know what was killing me, I didn't know how to counter anything. I've had to learn all that by playing, and the majority of that I've learned through playing with organized groups because I've come to love playing a support character like a healer. I still lack the skill to beat players of better skill in a 1v1 or 1v2+ although I do last longer before I die than I used to. Go me?

    To address a couple of points you brought up that you didn't understand.
    • Respawn after death. Unlike in PVE, you can't respawn with a soul gem. Instead, you can respawn at your faction's wayshrines or your faction's keeps.
    • 19.k gold in the mail. Anyone who gains AP (alliance points gained for doing stuff in PVP like quests, killing players, and capturing keeps) in their home campaign gets a set End of Campaign rewards when the campaign ends. 19.5k is the reward for a 30-day campaign like Vivec or Sotha Sil. Maybe Kyne as well? If you gained AP by doing quests, killing (or assissting in killing) players, and taking keeps and resources, you helped your faction and earned the rewards.
    • Credit for killing players: The quests like "Kill Enemy Players" just require that you get damage on a player who dies in order to get credit. Think of it as an assist. Zero skill might be involved in tagging enemies with light attacks or something, but you still assisted. Achievements that require you to kill so many of such type of player require a killing blow, and that can be with any skill, even a light attack. Again, zero skill might be involved, but you still assisted. Consider for a moment the role of healers in a group - they don't do a whole lot of damage to the enemy (usually - I realize some can and do) but they do allow the others in the group to get on with the business of killing other players without getting killed themselves. Who deserves the "credit" is a nebulous thing when dealing with a group effort.

    I hope Cyrodiil never stops attracting new players. The Midyear Mayhem event was wonderful, not just for the whole "lambs to the slaughter" effect, which I'll admit was totally in effect, but also for the chance to introduce players new to PVP, help them find their feet and start to enjoy PVP. Most found their entrance to PVP by hanging with large groups for safety and effectiveness because when you don't know what you are doing, the group is a good place to be. With more experience, it becomes possible to be effective in smaller groups. At least, that's been my experience with starting to PVP and as I've continued, I've been able to become more skilled, more adept at knowing how to read the map and know what's happening in a fight, and play in small groups even though I will probably never leave the support roles I love.

    So if PVP is something you want to continue to do, go for it! It does get less confusing over time. Ways to help lessen the confusion:
    • Check of Joy_Division's guide. Seriously. She clarifies a bunch of stuff that is confusing about how Cyrodiil works and has tons of advice for how a new player can make the most of the skill at the game they do have. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360956/joy-s-advice-for-midyear-mayhem-event/p1
    • When a skill kills you again and again, ask people (here or in zone chat) about counters. There's always a counter. Cliff racers, admittedly, are a pain. As a support player (usually healer) I lack the DPS to kill most players, so I'll try to use Line of Sight to get away, or if you are with a larger group, its a totally valid option to utilize the Monty Python method of "Run away!" to hide in the group and hope said cliff racer-spamming warden picks on someone else. Is that "skilled PVP"? Well, sometimes you just have to run away to fight another day.
    • When you run with an large group of players (either a "zerg" of disorganized players or an organized raid) try to pay attention to what skills and tactics work well in certain situtations and what don't. What skills and tactics get you the results you want? What skills and tactics get you killed? Learning the ebb and flow of Cyrodiil gameplay is a skill that comes through experience and paying attention to patterns as you play.

    Good luck in PVP! I hope to see you and other new players in Cyrodiil.
    Edited by VaranisArano on October 26, 2017 11:29AM
  • Sneaky-Snurr
    Sneaky-Snurr
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    kargen27 wrote: »
    I find PvP to be very easy. Easier than falling off a horse. Hell ya don't even have to fall off the horse as other players will knock you off. That is a service they provide.

    And once you finally get to the battle just charge in throwing attacks ever which way (you're bound to hit something) die, wait for rez then repeat. Easy as can be. I can make AP lying there dead, how much more simple do you want it?
    @kargen27
    True enough, you can make AP lying there dead (mind you, miniscule amount of AP) but you will be just that. Good at dying in Cyro, nothing else to offer to the PvP community or your own alliance.
    You'll just be another zergling at most, offering free AP to opponents.

    Now, this is to say that if that's what you do in PvP, then it is without doubt very easy to do.
    However, when you are competitive and you aim to be in the Overall Alliance War top 100 leaderboard, it is not going to be an easy task and the learning curve is irrevocably steep. As said before, try to get into the overall top 100 leaderboard and maintain your position in there for the rest of the campaign.
    Then you'll know how much of an obstacle it is to maintain such standing.
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  • DeHei
    DeHei
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    Skoomah wrote: »
    Good builds are a major factor to winning in pvp. That includes a lot of time theorycrafting to get the right mix of class, skills mix, skill rotation, gear, traits, glyphs, mundus stone, food/drink, team composition. And all these different choices are optimal based on different situations. There are hundreds of way to build a character. The combinations are nearly endless. It takes a lot of skill and knowledge of the game to make a strong build and many times you're rewarded by it on the battlefield. You're also rewarded by lifting builds off YouTube streamers for all the lazy people out there.

    Yes. It also turns out that the reason we have a narrow meta in ESO is that particular builds completely outclass any other build. It's not just an advantage, it's a chasm.
    Kahina wrote: »
    Turelus wrote: »
    I have no doubt it helps people, but your claim was that gear and skill don't have as much to do with victories as ping.

    You've done nothing to counter that claim. Mostly because you can't. There are no counter claims that stand up to scrutiny. I've been watching these same debates occur since the days of Quake Team Fortress.

    It does more than just help people. The average human reaction time is a little over 200ms. The best are around 100ms. That right there is the skill level difference. 100ms, best to average. Let's leave below average out of it.

    With 100ms - 300ms difference (latency) between players before we allow reaction times to influence things, there is no skill difference that can be shown to be the major influence on outcomes. People are playing from all over the world on two servers. This is what latency equalization in an online game works around.

    Anyone can match the best gear sets given the time to farm them. Anyone can rote practice until near perfect. Latency however, especially in a game without equalization, you are stuck with.

    You've done nothing to counter my claim.

    I have that rare knowledge that comes from being on different networks at different times.

    ZoS does a good job covering up latency by smoothing what we see on the client side. However, if you truly want to see how big a difference it is, try lock picking on a low latency connection and then induce an additional 100ms of latency and try it again. Master locks are easy peasy without significant latency, simple locks become a pain even with only 100ms added.

    PvP is no different. It's difficult to tell that you are suffering from latency due to the client side smoothing, but the difference in performance is huge.

    As an aside, folks that want to be competitive should spend a couple hundred dollars and get a decent monitor. I was having issues that I couldn't fix by switching to fiber or upgrading every single competent of my rig, to the point of buying commercial M.2 drives. By pure luck I came across a forum post that said certain revs of the gaming monitor I was using had a firmware issue. My KB:death ration shot through the roof simply by getting a new monitor... Man, the money I could have saved.
    DeHei wrote: »
    Smasherx74 wrote: »
    PVP in this game sucks because it's not skill based enough.

    Sure you can spend hundreds of hours figuring out what would be best gear to use, maybe you even change gear/slots for duels, bg, and cyrodill... but what is it that relaly makes you good? Well 99.9999999% of the time it's gear, nto your skill. Perhaps sometimes you get an even fight, then it lasts 2 hours.

    is not true... its more like this:
    Biro123 wrote: »
    PVP is hard, and has a very steep learning curve.

    First you need to learn how to make damage with animationcancelling! This is nearly the most important thing in this game, but also difficult to learn. So best you can do to learn how to make a good DPS at a dummie first. Look some tuturials from experienced players and try it.
    After learning it or while learning it you should also have an idea how you want to play. I needed 2 years to create a successful non-META build just for Templar. So its not just join the game and playing successful... you really need to learn much before...

    Thanks for the laugh. Animation cancelling is not hard, it does take muscle memorization so that you can perform it reflexively (without thinking about it), but that is conditioning and not an aspect of skill. Most serious PvE'rs can animation cancel in their sleep. The only aspect that PvErs have to adjust to is the fact that animation canceling in PvP is not about dps. In PvE, 40k sustained dps is good, in PvP less than 10k dps can be fine. The primary reason for animation canceling in PvP is to prevent skill from being a factor.

    And of course, if you search around on the forums, you can find out how to macro so that not only are you able to perform canceling without needing any conditioning, but so that you can also become largely immune to lag induced failures... If you ever run across someone jumping rock to rock while targeting you over their shoulder and landing perfect burst rotations, yeah, it's not possible without a macro or being a mutant with an extra arm.

    True think to learn animation cancelling until you can do it nearly in sleep. Macrousing isnt a option, because its a kind of cheating in my eyes...
    I said that because i see many guys, who are new in the game and i remember in my old WoW times. Just start attack the target and your charakter is attacking automatically. I see many guys, who only spam skills, prefered with dual wield and they wondering why this dont make much DPS and dont works well...

    For sure you need to learn animation cancelling as your main priority to become a good player in Elder scrolls online!
    Beyond Infinity - PC/EU
    DeHei - AD Magicka Templar Allrounder
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    De Hei(Youtube)
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Rickter wrote: »
    That is a bit of a stretch to say. 90%?
    It is true that gears matter a lot in PvP but personally, it's more like 60% gear and 40% skill. I'm not running any BiS/fotm PvP gears and I do well in PvP.
    Situational awareness, timely execution of defensive/offensive manoeuvres and positioning matters a lot in PvP. That is skill.

    This. i run all crafted gear and I would consider myself above average in terms of effectiveness in pvp.

    But the other side to this is that, yes, players, and especially the good ones or the ones that theorycraft alot, find combinations of sets that make things generally OP in their favor. What's further disappointing is that these set combinations or "over-performing skill/passive/gear combinations" are held close the the chest until word gets out and then they call for a nerf.

    People are terrible. high end pvpers literally hold onto OP builds, then when word inevitably gets out, they cry for a nerf when they cant exclusively benefit from it anymore.

    Don´t forget that the amazing arguments that they keep their builds for themselves (even tho it´s broken OP and unbalanced) to protect the community and the state of PvP xD
    WTB a non-bugged werewolf for at least one patch
    (PC/EU)
    Probably the worst Werewolf on PC/EU


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  • Krayzie
    Krayzie
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    Narvuntien wrote: »
    What is even winning in PVP?
    Killing other players?
    Getting AP?

    Honestly I enjoy PVP on a higher level than the actual fighting. Zergs crashing into each other, 2 shot ganks and lag of both the network and FPS varities makes actual combat a mess.

    It isn't about living or dying or killing, its about pulling the enemy around to gave advantages to your team on the otherside of the map. I mean you have to hope your efforts work, you can't really know unless you start seeing keeps lighting up.

    Zergs have this kind of predicability to them due to the nature of large numbers of people you can exploit, you can waste there time you can pull them away from where they should be.

    You and your three buddies take a bunch of resources and they send 12 people to stop you... you win.. even if they kill you all.. They used 12 on your 4.

    There's an end of campaign reward and a scoring system and 1st through 3rd place..... Have you ever been to Cyrodiil? I assume you can grasp in BGs that there's always a winning team.
    Edited by Krayzie on October 26, 2017 1:49PM
    I'm a PVE roleplayer concerned about my vampires stage 4 skin tone and keep getting load screens so I came here to distract people from major issues with a rant thread about my characters cosmetic appearance.
  • VaranisArano
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    Krayzie wrote: »
    Narvuntien wrote: »
    What is even winning in PVP?
    Killing other players?
    Getting AP?

    Honestly I enjoy PVP on a higher level than the actual fighting. Zergs crashing into each other, 2 shot ganks and lag of both the network and FPS varities makes actual combat a mess.

    It isn't about living or dying or killing, its about pulling the enemy around to gave advantages to your team on the otherside of the map. I mean you have to hope your efforts work, you can't really know unless you start seeing keeps lighting up.

    Zergs have this kind of predicability to them due to the nature of large numbers of people you can exploit, you can waste there time you can pull them away from where they should be.

    You and your three buddies take a bunch of resources and they send 12 people to stop you... you win.. even if they kill you all.. They used 12 on your 4.

    There's an end of campaign reward and a scoring system and 1st through 3rd place..... Have you ever been to Cyrodiil? I assume you can grasp in BGs that there's always a winning team.

    Sometimes its not about "winning" or "losing". My team might die miserably to a full raid on Aleswell, but if we pulled a group of defenders from somewhere else on the map that our faction then captured, we'll count that as a win for the faction and a win for us. What?! We lost, we died miserably! BUT, we accomplished our grander goal.

    That's part of the strategy of Cyrodiil, where your individual deaths or victories mean something beyond your individual efforts and start to count for the faction and for your teammates in the faction.

    We can count winning as being the emperor and being on the leaderboards, but not everyone wants to be that kind of winner. Some people prefer to play the map and play for the faction, and so when the faction wins, we all win, even if our small part in that faction push was a death that enabled a victory.

    To repeat the example given by Narvuntien, if your small force pulls away the larger forces of the enemy to a place you want and where they are not at a more important location, your force won in terms of strategy and accomplishing your goal, even if you wipe to a man. That's not necessarily going to get you on the leaderboards or the emperorship or even a reputation as a good 1v1/small group PVPer. It does mean that you are effective at supporting your faction, your faction's players, and that is a long-term, sustained effort sort of winning that may not win every battle, but it does win campaigns.

    Long story short, there's lots of ways to win at PVP. Some of them are individual, others are about the faction, and some of them turn what looks like a "loss" into a strategic victory.
  • Hecker777
    Hecker777
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    The above post hits the nail on the head. As someone with 3 toons above PvP level 25 and clears on all vet trials (not bragging, just trying to offset my forum noob appearance) The skillset and approach to combat in PvP vs. PvE is totally different. Understanding the flow of fighting another player vs fighting a NPC is step 1
    No class CC and I don't run a gap closer...so yeah if you streak away from me I'll probably bird spam you WHAT ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO DO??
    Outrider of Vokundein-Vice PvP Officer- Member of Legend Gaming
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  • Thrusts-His-Spear
    Thrusts-His-Spear
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    Sixty5 wrote: »
    I'm actually having a pretty good laugh at this thread now.

    Gear does make a difference, but not a huge one. As long as your gear is 'right' changing.to another set won't really do anything to help you.

    Case and point, here's a video from a long time ago, where I was running Black Rose, Viper and Velidreth, at a point where those sets were some of the most broken things in the game.

    If you watch that video you can tell that I am utter trash at pvp, but so are most of the people I am fighting (though the ganking helps)

    Fast forward to today, and while I wouldn't say I'm good at pvp, I've played enough to become decent. I can track CC timings, I manage buffs better and I can abuse line of sight. If I fought myself from back then now, I'd dumpster, even in what a lot of people would consider sub-optimal gear.

    If you watch someone like Kena play Magblade you can see the skill involved to kite out enemies, to time your burst and stay alive.

    In battlegrounds it is super evident when someone isn't very good at pvp, often because they sit up somewhere and spam snipe, or hard cast frags at you.

    Player skill is a huge part of pvp, and anyone who says otherwise is a zergling or a ganker

    Btw, kena doesnt even wear gold gear 90% of the time. Im in his guild and he barely puts togeather optimal gear at all and straight demolishes 99% of the player base.
    Dude Where's My Guar?
  • Cpt_Teemo
    Cpt_Teemo
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    Pvp is not easy yet they get the higher classed Geode than the daily dungeon does? really.
  • Drakkdjinn
    Drakkdjinn
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    Cpt_Teemo wrote: »
    Pvp is not easy yet they get the higher classed Geode than the daily dungeon does? really.

    Don't fret, the pvp geodes still give *** for crystals.
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